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Salvation Through The Law

Does a person receive SALVATION and RIGHTEOUSNESS in trying to keep the LAW, or do they receive SALVATION and RIGHTEOUSNESS in and through CHRIST?

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 ---Rob on 12/8/11
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francis//Wanna rest AS GOD DID? rest on the 7th day
---
I am already there for Hebrews 4:3 states -

For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,"As I swore in my wrath, 'They (those that observed the 7th day sabbath) shall not enter my rest,"' although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

I believe that those who listen to God's Spirit will see that the Sabbath depicted the Creation rest that was fulfilled by the ministry of Christ.
---lee1538 on 12/15/11


Francis //Your reach is far and wide, this doe snot say that christ IS the sabbath as it says christ is the passover, high priest, or bread.

Hebrews 4:3 says exactly that those who have believed (past tense) have entered into that rest depicted by God at Creation.

Some view Jesus as our rest based on the verse in Matthew 11:28 "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest".

Those that have yet to enter the rest of God at Creation still must struggle to enter it but they fail to understand that the obsevance of the Sabbath day only foreshadowed the rest in Christ.
---lee1538 on 12/15/11


Duane, sin will always be with you in this life, even if you don't want to call it sin. You can rename it, and call your sin holiness, cover it up and say you have no sin, but your flesh speaks otherwise. If you were sinless, you would not be so confused. For a genuine believer knows his sin and how short he comes to the glory of God. Yes, He came to die for your sins, so that you can be made righteous before God, not because you are worth anything, but because He first loved you. Underneath that imputed righteousness of Christ, you are nothing but sin, just like the rest of us.
---Mark_V. on 12/15/11


Let us reason together, duane.
Shall we render the verse a different way, even when conjugated in the present tense, 'of whom I am chief'?
Should what someone was taught and understood up until now be swayed because of the truth set before us?
I think we both agree to the answer of the latter to be a definitive YES.
I would like to start in support of my view by quoting Jesus and asking a question.
Luke 11:4 And forgive us our sins, for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
--Is this a daily prayer?
---micha9344 on 12/15/11


//If Paul was actually the chief of sinners at the time he wrote the verse, then he broke the gates of hell wide open //
Chief, meaning first not worst.
1Tim 1:15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me FIRST Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
---michael_e on 12/15/11




Lee, of course we receive everything through faith in Christ and what HE did. What did HE do? Dont you believe HE came and freed men from sin so they can see God and be with HIM? This is the Gospel and if you dont believe that, sin will always be with you. We have the righteousness of Christ through faith in what HE did. (We are yet still sinners if we dont believe this.)
We Christians are NOT sinners anymore.We have a new birth. (Saints)
The sin of the world is unbelief in HIM.
---duane on 12/15/11


SABBATH FULFILLED - Hebrews 4for those who have believed enter the rest of God at Creation.
---lee1538 on 12/14/11
Yourreach is far and wide, this doe snot say that christ IS the sabbath as it says christ is the passover, high priest, or bread.

the rest of God at creaton is NOT jesus, it is actually rest ON THE 7th DAY

Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Hebrews 4:4 And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Wanna rest AS GOD DID?
rest on the 7th day
---francis on 12/14/11


//If Paul was actually the chief of sinners at the time he wrote the verse, then he broke the gates of hell wide open.

Bulldung! The righteousness that Paul sought and found what that righteousness in Christ that is imputed to the believer, not the righteousness of the flesh acquired by obedience to the law - something he counted as wasted.

If the law cannot save you what can you do but look for a Savior who is Christ Jesus as whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life?
---lee1538 on 12/14/11


If Paul was actually the chief of sinners at the time he wrote the verse, then he broke the gates of hell wide open.
No sin will ever come in Gods presence.
---duane on 12/14/11


Sin is transgresson of the Moral laws of the entire Bible. Most agree that nine of them are Moral. Seventh day Adventist believe the fourth is moral also. A postion that in common in church history. Most taught based on tradtion that Sunday was Sabbath.

Health laws will always be in effect. The result of breaking them is sickness.

All the law is fulfilled in JESUS CHRIST. But that does not mean done away with. The law pointed to JESUS. It still does. The law tells us we are sinners. If you do not recognize your sin you do not feel the need of salvation.

The law condemns JESUS saves by grace alone. This is not the right to live in hate and sin. For the law shows us how love acts.
---Samuel on 12/14/11




NO sin shall enter. Easy to understand. The reason Christ came into the world. To set men free from sin.
We are freed from sin or not freed. A sinner is not freed. A saint is freed. Sin is no longer counted. We are free indeed.
---duane on 12/14/11


No sinner will be saved--francis on 12/13/11
Isa 64:5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, [those that] remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth, for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
1Ti 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
-What is the difference between a sinner like Paul and a saint like francis?
---micha9344 on 12/14/11


francis -
EARTHLY SANCTUARTY..Hebrews 9:24 heaven itself
EARTHLY HIGH PRIEST..Hebrews 3:1 High Priest..Christ Jesus,
PASSOVER LAMB..1 Corinthians 5:7 Christ our passover
SANCTUARY VEIL..Hebrews 10:20 the veil his flesh,
SHEW BREAD..John 6:35 I am the bread
BLOOD OF BULLS AND GOATS.. Hebrews 9:12..his own blood
EARTHLY SANCTUARY LAMP..John 8:12 I am the light
WINE OF THE EARTHLY SANCTUARY..Luke 22:20 my blood shed for you
Exodus 29:36 a sin offering for atonement:...Leviticus 12:3 the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised...Colossians 2:11.. circumcision made without hands,.. circumcision of Christ:
SABBATH FULFILLED - Hebrews 4for those who have believed enter the rest of God at Creation.
---lee1538 on 12/14/11


Trying to interpet scripture will not give you life. Its faith in Christ. HE is the way, the truth and the life.
HE came to take away sin so you could see life. NO christian is a sinner, for NO sin shall enter. There is NO salvation if we are yet sinners. We are now sinless because of the cross and the resurrection. Sin is death, we have LIFE. (Jesus Christ)

When we come to Christ we receive life and are then dead to sin. NOT alive to sin and receive death.
---duane on 12/14/11


lee1538
EARTHLY SANCTUARTY..Hebrews 9:24 heaven itself
EARTHLY HIGH PRIEST..Hebrews 3:1 High Priest..Christ Jesus,
PASSOVER LAMB..1 Corinthians 5:7 Christ our passover
SANCTUARY VEIL..Hebrews 10:20 the veil his flesh,
SHEW BREAD..John 6:35 I am the bread
BLOOD OF BULLS AND GOATS.. Hebrews 9:12..his own blood
EARTHLY SANCTUARY LAMP..John 8:12 I am the light
WINE OF THE EARTHLY SANCTUARY..Luke 22:20 my blood shed for you
Exodus 29:36 a sin offering for atonement:...1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins:,
Leviticus 12:3 the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised...Colossians 2:11.. circumcision made without hands,.. circumcision of Christ:

Romans 7:7 sin..the law..Thou shalt not covet.
---francis on 12/13/11


//Once you have confessed your sin, the blood of Jesus CLEANSES YOU from all sin.
---
But what is sin but the transgression of law?

But is sin the transgression of laws that were fulfilled in the ministry of Christ?

Francis has no answer!

Circumcision is clearly a law that the church does not heed since it was fulfilled by the circumcision of the heart wrought by the Holy Spirit much the same as the Jewish Sabbath was but a shadow of the believers rest in Christ. Hebrew 4 is clear on that issue.

So does one sin by not circumcising ones male children or not having communal worship on the Jewish Sabbath. Obviously no!
---lee1538 on 12/13/11


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1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and WALK IN DARKNESS, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son CLEANETH US FROM ALL SIN. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and TO CLEANSE US from all unrighteousness.

This passage speaks to those who think that because they are christians that they can reject the law of God and walk in darkness

Once you have confessed your sin, the blood of Jesus CLEANSES YOU from all sin.
---francis on 12/13/11


francis is correct
---duane on 12/13/11


//There is also nothing in the NT that states that bestiality and incest are sins. Do YOU think that they are sins in spite of this omission? I do!
---
STUPID COMMENT ON YOUR PART.

Sexual immorality is condemned in many New Testament passages.

1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.

However it is plain to see that there is NOTHING in the New Covenant that commands observance of the Jewish Sabbath. But we do see that Romans 14 states one may or may not observe any day as holy.

You really need to stop fighting against the truth!
---lee1538 on 12/13/11


francis//A CONVERSION HAS TO BE MADE from SINNER to saint to be saved
---
And that conversion is made at regeneration by the Holy Spirit in which the believer becomes a new creation in Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away, behold, the new has come.

However, since the Apostle Paul proclaimed himself to be the chief of sinners, how can you believe one may become sinless. 1 Tim. 1:15

1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

We in the above passage is addressed to Christians, so MarkV is correct that Christians are sinners saved by grace.

Perhaps you are blind to your own sinfulness.
---lee1538 on 12/13/11


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francis, the Bible tells me we are sinners saved by grace through faith. ---Mark_V. on 12/13/11

No it does not
No sinner will be saved

Psalms 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more

A CONVERSION HAS TO BE MADE from SINNER to saint to be saved
---francis on 12/13/11


francis, the Bible tells me we are sinners saved by grace through faith. It tells me the flesh has not been redeemed. It tells me that Paul spoke of sin within him. It also tells me we should be holy, because God cannot tell us to be unholy. We are told that we have a Mediator, Christ Jesus when we do sin. It also tells me that you cannot change the meaning of sin to holiness just because you are saved. We are righteous in the sight of God because of the imputed righteousness of Christ. But you remove that righteousness and you will find nothing but sin. You me and everyone else, all fall short of the glory of God. One day our flesh will be redeemed, and we will receive our glorified bodies. Then we will be sinless. That is Truth from Scripture.
---Mark_V. on 12/13/11


You ignore the fact that many of the commandments found in the Old Covenant are not applicable to the Christian.
---lee1538 on 12/12/11
Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother, (which is the first commandment with promise,)
Ephesians 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more

They all apply,, but because you have choosen to break one, you cannot see clearly that all apply. SIN blinds us, and that is what has happend to you.

Just as Israel is blinded by thier sin that they cannot see the emssiah, so you are blinded by your sin and remain carnaly minded.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
---francis on 12/13/11


Lee: " I think not as there is nothing in the New Testament that states that."

There is also nothing in the NT that states that beastiality and incest are sins. Do YOU think that they are sins in spite of this ommission? I do!


---jerry6593 on 12/13/11


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Lee: Why are you always looking for ways to disobey God rather than for ways to obey Him?


---jerry6593 on 12/13/11


\\1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not lawful and right is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
---francis on 12/12/11\\

And we KNOW that the SDA does not do what is lawful and right, because they listen to a wizardess that peeped and muttered, namely EGW, whose name adds up to 666.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/13/11


//1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth what is lawful and right is righteous, even as he is righteous.

And does he who does not have his male children circumcised guilty of disobeying the law?

Does obedience to the law make one righteous?

Please answer!


You ignore the fact that many of the commandments found in the Old Covenant are not applicable to the Christian.

Is breaking the Jewish Sabbath a sin? I think not as there is nothing in the New Testament that states that.(see lists of sins in Mark 7:21f, Romans 1:29f,Galatians 5:19f, and 2 Timothy 3:1f).
---lee1538 on 12/12/11


Francis//Sorry but the righteous live by faith, not by observing the Jewish Sabbath or other laws that found their fulfillment in Christ.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Why do you ignore what these verses say?

Do you think that the translators conspired to change the word of God since they were all sunday keepers?

There has got to be something wrong with you? Did you suffer a brick in the face like Ellen White?
---lee1538 on 12/12/11


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Sorry but the righteous live by faith, not by observing the Jewish Sabbath or other laws that found their fulfillment in Christ.
---lee1538 on 12/12/11
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth what is lawful and right is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not lawful and right is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
---francis on 12/12/11


Samuel//We are to walk in grace and when we love others and love GOD we do not break any of the commandments because they are about loving GOD and loving others.
---
Totally agree as that is essentially what Romans 13:9 states. However, if love of neighbor fullfills the law, have you ever wondered what the Sabbath commandment has to do with love of neighbor?

If the Sabbath commandments is only that you attend church on Saturday, then clearly you have the same thing if you have communal worship on the Lord's day - Sunday.

NO sense arguing if 2 nickels is worth a dime.
---lee1538 on 12/12/11


Salvation and Righteouness are fecieved through JESUS CHRIST alone.

The HOLY SPIRIT is recieved throught JESUS CHRIST alone.

We are to walk in grace and when we love others and love GOD we do not break any of the commandments because they are about loving GOD and loving others.
---Samuel on 12/12/11


Francis //I think paul was delivered by the blood of Jesus and so am i
---
And as far as righteousness is concerned, the righteousness that is in Christ was imputed to him.

Romans 10:3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to Gods righteousness.

It is indeed unfortunate that there are some that teach that one must reform that old nature Paul wrestled against in order to be saved.

Sorry but the righteous live by faith, not by observing the Jewish Sabbath or other laws that found their fulfillment in Christ.
---lee1538 on 12/12/11


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Romans 7:19-20 For I do not do the good I want, but the EVIL I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
---lee1538 on 12/11/11

As always you fall short fo finishing the scripture


Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

I think paul was delivered
by the blood of Jesus
and so am i
---francis on 12/12/11


francis-Jerry//I am not sure who told you to call the children of God sinners...
---
1 Timothy 1:15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.

Romans 7:19-20 For I do not do the good I want, but the EVIL I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

I realize you guys being Adventists pay more attention to your denominational belief that you can obtain sinlessness thru the law. But you really do NOT know much about what the Bible teaches.

Apparently the Apostle Paul had only the Holy Spirit to guide him, not Ellen White.
---lee1538 on 12/11/11


Francis and Jerry, what things are unlawful for people to do on the Sabbath?
---Rob on 12/11/11

Numbers 28:25 ye shall do no servile work.

Isaiah 58:13 not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

Nehemiah 10:31 not buy on the sabbath, or on the holy day:
---francis on 12/11/11


\\Francis and Jerry, what things are unlawful for people to do on the Sabbath?\\

One of the things would be to drive your car, even to church.

You see, the Bible strictly forbids lighting fires on the Sabbath. We all know that the internal combustion engine works by lighting thousands of fires a minute.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/11/11


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Francis and Jerry, what things are unlawful for people to do on the Sabbath?
---Rob on 12/11/11


---Mark_V. on 12/11/11
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs, heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ,

I am not sure who told you to call the children of God sinners

I believe in the new man.

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
---francis on 12/11/11


francis, I have no issues with salvation, I know who saved me. I know I could not ever measure up to God. I'm a sinner saved by Grace and mercy of God. I know who I am, you don't know who you are. I have no problem with what you do in life, I don't tell you what to do, or how much sin is in you. I know you disobey and sin against God. For you walk where you shouldn't, and speak what you should not, and judge other brothers and sisters. If they have the Holy Spirit they should know what not to do. But you call everyone as if you were God and without sin to live a holy life like you just because you worship God on Saturday Sabbath. You could worship Him everyday but you refuse. Keep bringing the law if you want, it will never save you or anyone.
---Mark_V. on 12/11/11


//You just do the same with the 4th commandment.
You say God has delivered you from it when the lord has said no such thing.

Ever consider the fact that the Old Covenant became obsolete (Hebrews 8:13) and if obsolete then like a last will and testament was succeed by a newer one?

All you need to do is to show at least one NT verse that commands the Sabbath or at least show from the NT that breaking the Sabbath is a sin. BUT YOU HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO DO THAT!

If the church was still under the Old Covenant, then ALL Jewish laws including circumcision would be applicable.
---lee1538 on 12/11/11


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LEEJ, MARK_V, your issues are not new

Jeremiah 7:8 Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit. Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not, And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?

You just do the same with the 4th commandment.
You say God has delivered you from it when the lord has said no such thing

Ezekiel 22:28 You say Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken.

Your issues are OLD ISSUES already dealt with by God
---francis on 12/11/11


francis, I'm not making up anything. You declared to me that you were not a sinner. So if you are not a sinner, so every time you disobey God, and that is all the time, your disobedience is not called sin anymore. It is called holiness since you claim to be in Christ and not a sinner.
And if you claim not to be a sinner saved by grace, then you are saying you were a just and righteous person and Jesus saved you, from what if you are not a sinner saved by Grace? The verse in 1 John 1:8 makes it clear, if a person says, he has no sin, he is not only deceived, but he does not have the Truth. Two terrible things.
---Mark_V. on 12/11/11


Rob: If people have the GRACE of Christ, then they have the POWER to obey the law.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Are you saying that Satan has the power to tempt you to sin, but Jesus does NOT have sufficient power to keep you from sinning?


---jerry6593 on 12/11/11


Lee: "Francis sins every time he lights a fire in his home on the Jewish Sabbath."

Funny, I can't find that among the Ten Commandments in my Bible.

You, on the other hand, sin every time you practice and teach lawlessness. Do you really think that will help you in the coming judgement?


---jerry6593 on 12/11/11


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But you are. How do you account for that? ANSWER: You don't call your sin, sin, or transgression of the Law, you call it holiness.
Just think, you could murder someone, or rape someone, you would call it holiness,
Not Biblical.
---Mark_V. on 12/10/11

MARK_V what are you talking about. You cannot in any of my post provbethat i said any of these things

Now you are just making things up.
When did I ever say that trangression of the law is holiness?

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Proverbs 6:17 a lying tongue,

How does God feel about you and your lying tongue/ finger?
---francis on 12/10/11


Francis sins every time he lights a fire in his home on the Jewish Sabbath.

Exodus 35:3 You shall kindle no fire in all your dwelling places on the Sabbath day.

If believers had to become Jewish proselytes as he contents, then everything pertaining to the Sabbath must also be obeyed.

Numbers 32:23 But if you will not do so, behold, you have sinned against the LORD, and be sure your sin will find you out.
---lee1538 on 12/10/11


francis, you say,
"Although we are justified by Christ, saved by grace yet we CANNOT be trangressors of the law."

But you are. How do you account for that? ANSWER: You don't call your sin, sin, or transgression of the Law, you call it holiness.
Just think, you could murder someone, or rape someone, you would call it holiness,
Not Biblical.
---Mark_V. on 12/10/11


1 Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand, 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures,
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
What LAW do we need to add to this?
---michael_e on 12/10/11


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we are not free to disobey God or any of His moral laws just because we are born of the Spirit, for obedience is not an uption. yet, when we sin, we sin wilfully, no one makes us. It is our failure to keep ourselves holy. The goal we are trying to reach but never do in this life. But as believers in Christ, we now have the Spirit to help us, guide us, chastine us, and not allow us to fall completely if we are children of God. No one is perfected yet, not in this life since our flesh has not been redeemed yet. But we can now share a love relationship with Christ and can never be condemned.
---Mark_V. on 12/10/11
This is your best post EVER
Good job
---francis on 12/10/11


Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found TRANGRESSORS OF THE LAW, is therefore Christ the minister of sSIN? God forbid.

Although we are justified by Christ, saved by grace yet we CANNOT be trangressors of the law. That would bhe living IN SIN, and christ is NOT the minister of sin.
CHrist came to save us FROM SIN, not in sin.
---francis on 12/9/11


Rob, we are not free to disobey God or any of His moral laws just because we are born of the Spirit, for obedience is not an uption. yet, when we sin, we sin wilfully, no one makes us. It is our failure to keep ourselves holy. The goal we are trying to reach but never do in this life. But as believers in Christ, we now have the Spirit to help us, guide us, chastine us, and not allow us to fall completely if we are children of God. No one is perfected yet, not in this life since our flesh has not been redeemed yet. But we can now share a love relationship with Christ and can never be condemned.
---Mark_V. on 12/10/11


Peter -concur with what you post.

Yes we are to work out our salvation in fear & trembling, not that we fear to lose our salvation but to avoid having to give an account for our failure to live the kind of life the Lord has called us to.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Throughout scripture we are urged to do good works.

Titus 2:7-8 Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us.
---lee1538 on 12/9/11


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Lee: You are completely right in that we obtain salvation through Christ's death on the cross.

However, while that is the WAY, we are also expected (not TO be saved, but as a RESULT of being saved) to work to obtain.

So the 'order' to follow God's commands remain (though many of the OT laws are now surpassed)

I just mean that there IS a demand to follow God's law, but not TO OBTAIN salvation

Blessings
---Peter on 12/9/11


NLT O' foolish Galatians! Who has cast an evil spell on you? For the meaning of Jesus Christ's death was made clear to you as if you had seen a picture of his death on the cross.

Let me ask you this one question?

Did you receive the Holy Spirit by obeying the law of Moses. No!

You received the Spirit bec you believed the message you heard about Christ.

How foolish can you be?

After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?

The early church recognized Gentile believers as Christians bec they also received the gift of the Holy Spirit.
---
Being born-again of God's Spirit is insufficient in Adventist theology for salvation.
---lee1538 on 12/9/11


Does say that we are free to disobey these
Exodus 20:3 have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, shalt not bow down thyself to them,
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain,
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother:
Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness
Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet

Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
---francis on 12/9/11


Gal 3:1-5 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain.
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
---micha9344 on 12/9/11


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---christan It is not what francis says.
SEE for yourself:
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning

Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them, for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

word of God
---francis on 12/9/11


Francis -Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

In context, the verse is better understand as "from one week to the next shall all flesh will come before me".

You overlook the fact that Isaiah 66 speaks of a renewed Levitical priesthood, a priesthood that offered sacrifices for sin and pointed forward to the ministry of Christ.

Also you do not bear in mind that the Sabbath was a sign of the Old Covenant made only with Israel. Will God renew that Old covenant He made with Israel in the New Earth and impose it onto His church. I think not!
---lee1538 on 12/9/11


"Fulfilled of the ten commandments means he kept all perfectly and gave to us his righteous life" francis

If you sincerely belief what you've just said, why do you continue to tell others they have to obey the law or they'll loose their salvation? Out of your own heart, you contradict yourself. Your theology simply tells us that Christ's atonement was insufficient to save one from their sins.

A Christian after he's saved will indeed try to obey and keep the laws of God, regardless of how imperfect while they are still in the flesh. And that's because they love God and not that they will loose their salvation if they don't.
---christan on 12/9/11


---lee1538 on 12/9/11
Nothng you posted show the sabbath as a shadow.

Also you MUST take this into account:
Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

If there is sabbath in the new earth along with Jesus then the sabbath is not a shadow
---francis on 12/9/11


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//shadows fulfilled in Christ

The Sabbath also was but a shadow of that rest the believers enters into. Hebrews 4.

(4:3) For we which have believed do enter into rest, ...

(4:4) For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

(4:8) For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on.

And that 'another day' is the day one comes to know Christ.

Why do Adventists reject the truth?

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
---lee1538 on 12/9/11


shadows fulfilled in Christ.

EARTHLY SANCTUARTY..Hebrews 9:24 heaven itself
EARTHLY HIGH PRIEST..Hebrews 3:1 High Priest..Christ Jesus,
PASSOVER LAMB..1 Corinthians 5:7 Christ our passover
SANCTUARY VEIL..Hebrews 10:20 the veil his flesh,
SHEW BREAD..John 6:35 I am the bread
BLOOD OF BULLS AND GOATS.. Hebrews 9:12..his own blood
EARTHLY SANCTUARY LAMP..John 8:12 I am the light
WINE OF THE EARTHLY SANCTUARY..Luke 22:20 my blood shed for you

Can anyone show ANY of the ten commandments that the bible says is also Christ?

Fulfilled of the ten commandments means he kept all perfectly and gave to us his righteous life,
---francis on 12/8/11


Scripture declares salvation as "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

Do you see anywhere that says you are saved by the law? Rather scripture declares,

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Romans 3:20, and again, "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident." Galatians 3:11
---christan on 12/9/11


Samuel //Lee1538 stated -I believe not all OT laws are applicable to the Christian as some were but a shadow of things to come and were fulfilled in Christ.

You stated: First I agree with your last stament. Many of the laws were a shadow that pointed to JESUS CHRIST.
----
If you believe that not all laws are applicable to the Christian, that some were only a shadow pointing to Jesus Christ, then why do Adventists insist that others cannot hold the belief the Sabbath merely was a shadow of the rest believers enter into?

Is not Hebrew 4 clear enough on this issue?

Just because a law is one of the big 10, does that mean it has to be an eternal law binding on all humanity?
---lee1538 on 12/8/11


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\\I believe not all OT laws are applicable to the Christian\\
---lee1538 on 12/8/11

There is not even ONE law which is applicable to the Christian


Eph 2:14-15
For He Himself is our peace....by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances

1Im 1:8-9
But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners....

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes...For in it the righteousness of God is revealed....THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.
---James_L on 12/8/11


It is truely amazing and almost unprecomprehendsable. When people share the TRUTH, those who are caught up in the LIES of SATAN and his SERVANTS, 2 Corinthians Chapter Eleven, and 2 Peter Chapter Two, these very people who follow the FALSE TEACHINGS of Ellen G. White say they are being attacked.

If taking a stand for GOD'S TRUTHS means ATTACKING and taking a stand against SATAN'S LIES, and SATAN'S SERVANTS, so be it becaue we are in A SPIRITUAL WARFARE, Ephesians 6:10-17.
---Rob on 12/8/11


You have to say yes, because you believe "he that doeth what is lawful and right is righteous".

Can you provide an answer?

I believe not all OT laws are applicable to the Christian as some were but a shadow of things to come and were fulfilled in Christ.
lee1538

First I agree with your last stament. Many of the laws were a shadow that pointed to JESUS CHRIST.

Francis pointed out to you what the Scriptures asy about how we are to follow GOD in obdience to those laws that tell us what sin is.

Just because we believe Arminus was right and Calvin wrong does not make us lost.
---Samuel on 12/8/11


Francis - You have a habit of interpreting James 2:10 out of context. Sin in James 2:10 is NOT limited to violation of the 10 commandments.

Consider James 2:9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

But the question you have not answered is whether all laws found in the OT are applicable to the Christian. For instance, if I light a fire on the Sabbath (Ex. 35:3) or do not have my male children circumcised on the 8th day (Gen. 17:11), do I commit sin?

Think before you answer!
---lee1538 on 12/8/11


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shadow..fulfilled in Christ.
-lee1538 on 12/8/11
EARTHLY SANCTUARTY..Hebrews 9:24 heaven itself
EARTHLY HIGH PRIEST..Hebrews 3:1 High Priest..Christ Jesus,
PASSOVER LAMB..1 Corinthians 5:7 Christ our passover
SANCTUARY VEIL..Hebrews 10:20 the veil his flesh,
SHEW BREAD..John 6:35 I am the bread
BLOOD OF BULLS AND GOATS.. Hebrews 9:12..his own blood
EARTHLY SANCTUARY LAMP..John 8:12 I am the light
WINE OF THE EARTHLY SANCTUARY..Luke 22:20 my blood shed for you

I can show EVERY SINGLE shadow, but you will never find ONE that says Jesus is the sabbath.
Notice that unlike the sabbath ALL of these were introduced AFTER SIN.
Unlike these shadows we will still have sabbath in the new earth (isiaih 66:23)
---francis on 12/8/11


---lee1538 on 12/8/11
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill.
HE also said:
Exodus 20:3 have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, shalt not bow down thyself to them,
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain,
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother:
Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness
Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet
---francis on 12/8/11


Francis // John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth what is lawful and right is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil,

So if you light a fire on the Sabbath day (Exodus 35:3) or do not circumcised male children on the 8th day (Lev. 12:3) you have committed a sin?

You have to say yes, because you believe "he that doeth what is lawful and right is righteous".

Can you provide an answer?

I believe not all OT laws are applicable to the Christian as some were but a shadow of things to come and were fulfilled in Christ.
---lee1538 on 12/8/11


If we are not saved by observance of the law..? ---lee1538 on 12/8/11
I told you cannot win this debate you just do not know enough. Go ahead and start badmouthing E G WHITE

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth what is lawful and right is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are known, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not what is lawful and right is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

THE CHILDREN OF GOD DO WHAT IS LAWFUL AND RIGHT
THE CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL TRANGRESS THE LAW,
---francis on 12/8/11


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If we are not saved by observance of the law, then why should you promote it? ---lee1538 on 12/8/11
I told you you cannot win this debate you just do not know enough.

1 John 3:4 sin is the transgression of the law.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,..But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found TRANSGRESSORS OF THE LAW, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW, that grace may bound?
God forbid.

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we TRANSGRESS THE LAW, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
---francis on 12/8/11


Francis //NO ONE IS SAVED BY KEEPING THE LAW.

If we are not saved by observance of the law, then why should you promote it? Instead promote that which leads to salvation.

However, you Adventist really speak out of both sides of your mouths and tell us that while we are not saved by observance of the law, one has to observe the law in order to be saved.

And then you say that one is saved by grace, not by law but then you imposed your Investigative judgment theory onto believers saying that one is saved by works.

You people are so confused as you contradict yourselves.
---lee1538 on 12/8/11


NO ONE IS SAVED BY KEEPING THE LAW
Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

I predict that you are going to lose this debate and soon start attacking ellen g white
---francis on 12/8/11


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