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Did Christ Fufill The Law

Explain Matthew 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. If Christ came to fulfill the law did He fulfill all of it or just part of it?

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 ---lee1538 on 12/8/11
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If I remeber correct Jeremiah is speaking of those carrying goods to buy and sell.

Carrying a Bible would not fit the description. In fact picking up a burden to help someone would not fit the description since JESUS said

Mat 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Why would JESUS tell us this if we do not have to keep Sabbath? Why would the Apotles write it for the church if the church does not need to know what is right and wrong on Sabbath?
---Samuel on 12/22/11


//Jeremiah 17:22 And do not carry a burden out of your houses on the Sabbath or do any work, but keep the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your fathers.
-
The same law also applies to you.
---
Really!

If Jeremiah 17:22 is applicable to me, then most certainly so does Exodus 35:3 that I cannot light a fire in my home on the Sabbath.

Exodus 35:3 You shall kindle no fire in all your dwelling places on the Sabbath day.

Sorry Frances, the believer does NOT have to convert to Judaism to be legitimate. That was the issue that was settled at the Jerusalem council Acts 15.

Hope that your family enjoys eating cold food on the Sababth as well as freezing their buns off during the winter months.

---lee1538 on 12/22/11


Jeremiah 17:22 And do not carry a burden out of your houses on the Sabbath or do any work, but keep the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your fathers.
---lee1538 on 12/21/11
The same law also applies to you

Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar, as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Romans 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? [Is] God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
Romans 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
---francis on 12/22/11


Jeremiah 17:22 And do not carry a burden out of your houses on the Sabbath or do any work, but keep the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your fathers.

So Francis if you carry your Bible out to your car on the Sabbath, you are GUILTY of breaking the Sabbath.

Exodus 35:3 You shall kindle no fire in all your dwelling places on the Sabbath day.

So you had better cook your food prior to the Sabbath since you cannot light a stove.

And you have merely made the Sabbath into a day of worship whereas the Scripture says it is much more than that.


GUILTY...GUILTY...GUILTY is you Francis of breaking God's most holy commandment.

Will you end up with the Mark of the Beast on your forehead?
---lee1538 on 12/21/11


//All of which belived, but refused to teach people to obey all the ten commandments, why do you pick on Ellen g white?
---
Because she taught that our salvation is by obedience to the 10 commandments instead of through Christ - a salvation by works of the law.

Sorry Francis, but you are really blind to the spiritual truth that our salvation is in Christ not in the law.

Romans 3:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The free "what"? Read the verse!

If you have Christ in your life to illuminate the Word of God, what need do you have of olde Ellen White?
---lee1538 on 12/21/11




Francis//There will be no inocent people in Hell.
---
And those in Christ will not be there either as the righteousness of the Christians is in Christ.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Galatians 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

What you will find in hell is the law promoting and Christ killing Pharisees and their modern day successors who believe the law will be their salvation.
---lee1538 on 12/21/11


There will be no inocent people in Hell

Isaiah 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
---francis on 12/21/11


Francis, how can some teach others to follow the teaching of a FALSE PROPHET, such as Ellen G. White
---Rob on 12/14/11
This question has it's basis in ignorance and hatred.

Preachers constantly quote
Martin Luther, John Calvin John Knox, John Smyth, John Wesley, Charles Wesley, John Darby, Charles Parham

All of which belived, but refused to teach people to obey all the ten commandments, why do you pick on Ellen g white?
---Francis on 12/21/11


Rob//Francis, why do you continue to not answer the question I asked you on 12/14/11.
---
Probably because he really cannot dream up an intelligent answer.

There are lots of questions Adventists really do not have a good answer for and all too often what answers they do provide are really distortions of logic, history and the Bible.

That much is evident from the fact that the rank and file Adventists is often at odds with their own theologians.
---lee1538 on 12/21/11


Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

A good verse for the legalists but for those who are beneficiaries of the death of Christ on the Cross, the rigtheous live by faith not by law as their righteousness is found in Christ.

A most hated verse of the legalists -

Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."
---lee1538 on 12/19/11




Francis, why do you continue to not answer the question I asked you on 12/14/11.
---Rob on 12/19/11


Francis - I feel so very sorry for you as the scripture does teach you will be the least in God's kingdom since you teach others to break the least of the commandments.

One commandment is found in Exodus 35:3 You shall kindle no fire in all your dwelling places on the Sabbath day.

So based on that verse YOU BREAK THE SABBATH!

You had better cook you meals prior to Friday night and eat cold food until Saturday night and freeze your tooties off during the winter months.

OBEY THE LORD or SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES!
---lee1538 on 12/19/11


francis, you added all that stuff to the passages. There is those who will be called "least in the kingdom of heaven" and then there is those who are called "great in the kingdom of heaven"
The passages are very clear unless you want to cloud them by adding words not found in those passages.
"Whoever therefore breaks "one of the least of these commandments"
He is talking about believers. They both go to the kingdom of heaven. Jesus declares that He will hold those in lowest esteem who hold His Word in low esteem. Determining rank in the Kingdom of heaven is entirely God's prerogative (Matt. 20:23).
---Mark_V. on 12/19/11


Concerning the law Christ said:
Mt5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mt5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Christ fulfilled the law.
The world that he is speaking of is the Law Age world which ended with Christ on the cross when he said, "It is finished!" It's end was exclamated by the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. We now live under grace, and not under the law.
---trey on 12/19/11


Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This does not not mean that those who break the commandments and teach men will be in the kingdom.
After all the wages of sin is DEATH.

Take for example one who teaches that we can worship idols or more than one god ( as is done in India) How can one worship others gods and be in the kingdom?

The text means that those in heaven will consider the lawbreakers to be the LOWEST FOR OF LIFE

A LOWLIFE
---francis on 12/17/11


He fulfilled the Law as far as the Boc is concerned as it was still a mystery at that time. Paul who speaks to the BoC gave us some good scripture concerning the Law
Romans 6:14,15
Gal 3:10
Gal 5:18
---michael_e on 12/17/11


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"If Christ came to fulfill the law did He fulfill all of it or just part of it?"-Blog question.
Jesus came to execute, satisfy and finish the task His Father initiated through both the Law and the prophets, and as He Himself said, "It is finished".
---Josef on 12/18/11


francis, before you give an answer you should check the context. Matt. 5:11-20, Jesus was speaking to believers. (v.11) Blessed are you, (v. 13) You are the salt of the world, (v.14) You are the light of the world, (v. 17)I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. (v.19) whoever therefore breaks one of the least of thes commandments, and teaches man so, shall be called "least in the kingdom of heaven" Pretty clear, if you are a believer and sin, and teach others to sin, you are considered least in the Kingdom of heaven. So "unless your righteousness (which is of Christ) exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ( that means their self righteous,) you will by no means enter the Kingdom of heaven.
---Mark_V. on 12/15/11


Christ fulfilled his part that was written and prophesied of him in the scriptures, he did not fulfill your part, for your life is your's to live and choose to fulfill. He showed you the way, now you must take up your own cross as he has done and follow after him. The lie that Christ fulfilled everything, therefore I do not have to fulfill anything is certain damnation to every soul whom follows this falsehood. The whole of Jesus's Command is "DO" "Be Doers", it is Not "NOT DO".
---Eloy on 12/14/11


Samuel - The origin of Sunday worship remains debated with at least 3 scholarly positions.

Bauckham argues Sunday worship must have originated in Palestine in the mid-1st century, in the period of the Acts of the Apostles, no later than the Gentile mission.

Some Protestant scholars, R. Beckwith, W. Stott (1978), W. Rordorf (1962) & Paul King Jewett (1971) have argued Sunday worship traces back even further, to the resurrection appearances of Jesus recorded in the Gospel narratives.

Samuele Bacchiocchi has argued Sunday worship was introduced in Rome in the 2nd century, and was later enforced throughout the Christian church as a substitution for Sabbath worship.

Yes, there may have been a gradual transition.
---lee1538 on 12/14/11


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According to some classical sources, widespread seventh-day and first-day Sabbath observance by Gentile Christians prevailed in the 3rd and 4th centuries. In the 4th century, Socrates Scholasticus Church History book 5 states:


For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this. The Egyptians in the neighborhood of Alexandria, and the inhabitants of Thebas, hold their religious assemblies on the sabbath...

Lee you forget to mention that the coucils talked about proper Sabbath worship.
---Samuel on 12/14/11


//How can you teach someone to murder, take God's name in vain, make idols to worship, commit adultery, and worship false gods , and do so yourself, and still be in the kingdom of heaven?

One cannot continue to practice sin and be a Christian.

1 John 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for Gods seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Howbeit, is not observing the Jewish Sabbath a sin? We do not see it as a sin in any of the listings of sin in the New Testament.

All we do see is that one may esteem one day over others or none at all Romans 14.

The Sabbath commandments was simply a shadow of the rest of God that believers would enter into. Read Hebrew 4.
---lee1538 on 12/14/11


Francis, how can some teach others to follow the teaching of a FALSE PROPHET, such as Ellen G. White
---Rob on 12/14/11


No believers should disobey God purposely or teach others to disobey God, if they do they are least in the kindom of heaven. Does not mean they lose salvation, just least of others. ---Mark_V. on 12/14/11
How can you teach someone to murder, take God's name in vain, make idols to worship, commit adultery, and worship false gods , and do so yourself, and still be in the kingdom of heaven?

It does mean that they will lose their salvation. least in the kingdom does not mean position.
It means that those in the kingdom of heaven will call them the lowest form of life
---francis on 12/14/11


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francis//Daniel 7:23 The fourth beast ( Babylon, medo-persia, grecia, ROME) shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth,.. And he shall.. think to CHANGE TIMES AND LAW:

The fact is that the early church, not being all Roman Catholic simply met on Sundays for communal worship and this was later referred to as the Christian Sabbath.

So did the Roman Catholic church changed the Sabbath to Sunday? I think not, since the early church no longer observed the Jewish Sabbath. You can only change something from one thing to another, not to the same thing.


The SDA blames the Roman Church but neither the Roman Church or Scripture can be used to support their Judaizing gospel.
---lee1538 on 12/14/11


In Matthew 5:17-18 the Law is the Torah, the first 5 books of Moses, while the prophets refer to rest of the OT, all held to be written by the prophtets.

Jesus 'fulfills' all of the OT in that it pointed to Him, not only in its specific predictions but also to its sacrificial system which looked forward to the ultimate sacrifice of Himself.

Jesus gospel of the kingdom did not replace the OT but rather fulfills it as Jesus' life & ministry,coupled with His interpretation,complete and clarify God's intent and meaning of the entire OT.

As to heaven & earth passing away, Jesus merely confirms the full authority of the OT as Scripture for all time, even down to the smallest component of the written text.
---lee1538 on 12/14/11


Lee, Christ came to fulfill, which means, to carry out a promise, to do a duty, to satisfy a condition."
For the unbeliever, The law is condemning them for breaking it.
Concerning believers: No believers should disobey God purposely or teach others to disobey God, if they do they are least in the kindom of heaven. Does not mean they lose salvation, just least of others. Then Jesus turns around and says, (v.20). That the righteousness of believers should exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees because theirs was external and the only righteousness by which sinners maybe justified is the perfect righteouness of God that is imputed to those who believe ( Gen. 15:6: Rom. 4:5).
---Mark_V. on 12/14/11


The SDA theory is Rome changed the Sabbath to Sunday, ---lee1538 on 12/13/11
NOT SDA THEORY!! BIBLE PROPHECY, and it happened just as the bible prophecied

Daniel 7:23 The fourth beast ( Babylon, medo-persia, grecia, ROME) shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth,.. And he shall.. think to CHANGE TIMES AND LAW:

You tell me why they only live for 1,000 years?---Mark_V. on 12/13/11
No one said they ONLY live for 1000 years
no one said christ will reign for ONLY 1000 years
This is a special time period AFTER the resurrection for JUDGMENT
Revelation 20:4 AND JUDGMENT WAS GIVEN UNTO THEM..and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
---francis on 12/13/11


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Samuel//There was no arguement about the sabbath except not to judge others on how they keep it.
---
If they kept it at all!

If the early church outside of Jewish communities would have changed to Sunday, there would certainly have been protests regarding it.

The SDA theory is Rome changed the Sabbath to Sunday, however, since SDA church historians have concluded that communal worship was on Sundays by 135 A.D. it is very doubtful that the Sabbath was changed by a church directive.

Apparently the Apostles themselves and their immediate successors did not teach Sabbath observance or other laws that were Jewish in nature.

And Scripture is very plain the observance of any day depended on ones convictions.
---lee1538 on 12/13/11


micha9344 //All or nothing-the Bible is clear, NEW covenant, making the first one OLD.
---
the confusion is largely to those who are Adventists and have a high regard for the Mt. Sinai 10 commandments.

They absoletely refuse to accept the fact the Bible declares the Old Covenant as being obsolete. Hebrews 8:13

In that they want to force the Old Covenant onto the church by saying the New covenant is but a rehash of the Old with the law being written onto believers heart.

But in that they select only certain laws such as the Sabbath commandment onto the church, however the Sabbath merely foreshadowed our rest in Christ. Hebrews 4

But we need to pity them as they have fallen into the pit of legalism.
---lee1538 on 12/13/11


francis, how could the righteous be alive for 1,000 years when they are alive for all eternity? Hello? You tell me why they only live for 1,000 years? Isn't salvation eternal life? With Christ?
---Mark_V. on 12/13/11


That would be far more reasonable to believe since we can find not even so much as a hint of a Sabbath commandment in the New Testament, Nothing in the Epistles or even in the teachings of the early church. lee1538

I noticed you said the Epistles and not the Gospels. Since the Gospels which were written to the church after the Resurrection point to sabbath many times. The Sabbath is also mentioned nine times in acts.

If the day was changed why was there no arguement about it like there was circucision?

There was no arguement about the sabbath except not to judge others on how they keep it.
---Samuel on 12/13/11


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So much confusion between obedience and covenants.
The old covenant and its laws are soon to pass away.
The only reason they are still around is two-fold: the blinding of Israel, who still follow the old covenant by rejecting Jesus, and the pointing to a better covenant, which may have similarities to the old, but is in no respect like it.
Shall I love my wife, or just not murder her?
Jesus didn't even pick from the Law of God for the greatest commandments, but instead went to the Law of Moses, as some here distinguish them.
So, much talk about the 10, yet those that push them, also push selected ones from the other 600+.
All or nothing-the Bible is clear, NEW covenant, making the first one OLD.
---micha9344 on 12/13/11


I told your there were sinners out there.
---Mark_V. on 12/13/11

You lost your arguement because the DEAD lived not again for 1000 years

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

for 1000 years only the righteous are alive with Jesus, the dead are resurrected after 1000 years just for judgment and punishment, so who are these priest representing to God THE UNRIGHTEOUS DEAD?
---francis on 12/13/11


francis, you are losing it. you argue there was no more sin, priest were just hanging around doing nothing. I told your there were sinners out there. I show you and you turn around and tell me I lost my argument. Sorry, you cannot run, you can hide, but you cannot run from the Truth.
---Mark_V. on 12/13/11


francis, you are arguing there is no more sin by the time of Rev. 20:5,6, but that is not true. After the 1,000 years Satan will be released from his prison, and will go out to deceive the nations. ---Mark_V. on 12/13/11

You just lost your arguement
---francis on 12/13/11


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Sabbath command points us to the rest one has in Christ.
---lee1538 on 12/12/11
It points us to christ as CREATOR

Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made, And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:
Exodus 20:11 in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Psalms 37:7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

Rest in the lord does not replace the sabbath. It means trust in God because he will do as he says" destroy the wicked and save the righteous"
---francis on 12/13/11


francis, you are arguing there is no more sin by the time of Rev. 20:5,6, but that is not true. After the 1,000 years Satan will be released from his prison, and will go out to deceive the nations. to gather Gog and Magog, (who are unbelievers, and unbelievers are sinners) to battle, they went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was cast to the Lake of Fire.
---Mark_V. on 12/13/11


//It is these laws listed above that served as a schoolmaster to point us to Jesus our passover, out high priest, our light, or bread, once christ came we no longer need the passover lamb, or shewbread or earthly high priest
---
AND the Sabbath command points us to the rest one has in Christ.

Since you believe these things pointed to Christ, then why not also believe the Sabbath was simply a shadow of that rest believers in Christ enter into? Hebrews 4 seems to indicate that.

That would be far more reasonable to believe since we can find not even so much as a hint of a Sabbath commandment in the New Testament, Nothing in the Epistles or even in the teachings of the early church.
---lee1538 on 12/12/11


EARTHLY SANCTUARTY..Hebrews 9:24 heaven itself
EARTHLY HIGH PRIEST..Hebrews 3:1 High Priest..Christ Jesus,
PASSOVER LAMB..1 Corinthians 5:7 Christ our passover
SANCTUARY VEIL..Hebrews 10:20 the veil his flesh,
SHEW BREAD..John 6:35 I am the bread
BLOOD OF BULLS AND GOATS.. Hebrews 9:12..his own blood
EARTHLY SANCTUARY LAMP..John 8:12 I am the light

we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
---lee1538 on 12/12/11

It is these laws listed above that served as a schoolmaster to point us to Jesus our passover, out high priest, our light, or bread, once christ came we no longer need the passover lamb, or shewbread or earthly high priest

we still need honour father and mother and all ten commandments
---francis on 12/12/11


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// so we obey out of love.

you are correct in that we are not under the Old Covenant law. As far as the 10 commandments are concerned, Adventist really need to read in the New testament Romans 13:9-10

The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, not murder, not steal, not covet, and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

And if you do that much then you have fulfilled the law.

13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

But what has the Jewish Sabbath observance to do with love of neighbor. NOTHING!

You love God by the way your treat your neighbor.Mt. 25:40

Is this as a lie?
---lee1538 on 12/12/11


Samuel//So that means you should sleep with animals for that is an OT.

It is NOT against any of the 10 commandments to sleep with animals. I can see that the New Covenant condemns sexual immorality and encourages one to be sexual pure.

If however, you do lie with an animal, I would strongly recommend that you thoroughly wash yourself to prevent any disease you may contact.
---lee1538 on 12/12/11


Lee you attack with lies again. We are saved by Grace which results in being Born Again so we obey out of love.

You say not to obey the OT. laws. So that means you should sleep with animals for that is an OT. Law. You should never wash your hands for that is an OT law. So when you obey any of the Ten Commandments you are following the law are are lost. That is what your words mean.

I actually do not believe you really mean that. But in your zeal to put down the SDA. You go overboard and lie to make your point.

Why?
---Samuel on 12/12/11


Francis //You cannot find the same said about the ten commandments.
---
And that is because the ten commandments were but a schoolmaster or guardian for us until we could be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:24-25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Why do you think the Bible tells us that the righteous live by faith?

Gal. 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith."

Romans 1:17 also says the same thing.


---lee1538 on 12/12/11


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EARTHLY SANCTUARTY..Hebrews 9:24 heaven itself
EARTHLY HIGH PRIEST..Hebrews 3:1 High Priest..Christ Jesus,
PASSOVER LAMB..1 Corinthians 5:7 Christ our passover
SANCTUARY VEIL..Hebrews 10:20 the veil his flesh,
SHEW BREAD..John 6:35 I am the bread
BLOOD OF BULLS AND GOATS.. Hebrews 9:12..his own blood
EARTHLY SANCTUARY LAMP..John 8:12 I am the light
WINE OF THE EARTHLY SANCTUARY..Luke 22:20 my blood shed for you
Exodus 29:36 a sin offering for atonement:...1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins:,
Leviticus 12:3 the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised...Colossians 2:11.. circumcision made without hands,.. circumcision of Christ:

You cannot find the same said about the ten commandments.
---francis on 12/12/11


Francis//ALL the wicked are DEAD by the brightness of Christ coming

so who exactly is committing the sin for which these priest need to intercede?
---
Yes, we can all easily see that breaking the Jewish Sabbath is a sin in Adventism as they truly believe one is not saved by grace as a gift from God, but by obedience to commandments, especially the Sabbath commandment which was but a shadow fulfilled by the ministry of Christ. Hebrews 4

Poor dumb & blind Adventists, when will they ever see the truth that Jesus is our Savior and not our obedience to OT laws not found within the New Covenant?

Of course as children of Hagar, can they do anything but judge others for not adhering to Mt. Sinai? Gal.4:24f
---lee1538 on 12/11/11


Priests in this verse will not offer sacrifices for sin, the only sacrifice will be that of praise.

However in Isaiah 66, priests ( & Levites) are priests that offer sacrifices for sin.
---lee1538 on 12/11/11

Isaiah 66:21 And I will also take of them for priests [and] for Levites, saith the LORD.

Do you see any thing about sacrifice there?

Again you just making up stuff
---francis on 12/11/11


---Mark_V. on 12/11/11
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

The dead in christ are raised incorruptible in the FIRST RESURRECTION

ALL the wcked are DEAD by the brightness of Christ coming

so who exactly is commiting the sin for which these priest need to interceed?
---francis on 12/11/11


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Francis - Re: Rev. 20:6

The word kings, as applied to them, refers to the exalted rank and dignity which they will have, to the fact that they, in common with their Saviour, will reign triumphant over all enemies, and that, having gained a victory over sin and death and hell, they may be represented as reigning together. The word priests refers to the fact that they are engaged in the holy service of God, or that they offer to him acceptable worship. (Barnes notes)

Priests in this verse will not offer sacrifices for sin, the only sacrifice will be that of praise.

However in Isaiah 66, priests ( & Levites) are priests that offer sacrifices for sin.
---lee1538 on 12/11/11


francis, don't you see your mistake? Your arguement is completely wrong. Lee said they were priest, because there still was sin. You argue there was not and gave a passage Rev.20:6 that indicates there was sin. It explains that "blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection" he is a believer, and blessed because over such the second death has no power. Which indicates the second death has power on those who are not blessed and holy. So there is still sin roaming around. They, the blessed and holy, shall be priest of God and of Christ, they will eventually reign with Him a thousand years.
---Mark_V. on 12/11/11


Jesus fulfiflled the Law of sin and death. He took upon Him our sin and died as the Law required.
He Rose again on the 3rd day for our Justification.

However Colossians states there is still a SHADOW of things to come concerning the Sabbath,moons etc. You can read all about this particular time yet to be filfilled in Zechariah 12-14.

No one's water is going to be turned off in Heaven or the new earth. When Christ reigns 1000 years man will have to come to Jerusaleem to WORSHIP THE KING. To say this has already been fulfilled, I ask for time and dates?

Zech 12-14 is at the RETURN of the Glorified Risen Christ who fulfillls the promise of taking the Throne of David fulfilling the promises to Israel the Nation.
---kathr4453 on 12/11/11


The clue here is in verse 21 "I will make some of them priests and Levites, declares the LORD."

There would be no need for priests if there is no sin as the duty of priests is to render sacrifice for sin.
---lee1538 on 12/10/11

You are very bad at this.

Get your money back for you theology degree!!!

The idea that those who are saved will serve as priest of God even when thereis NO SIN, is not only a concept written by Isaiah

John the revelator also says the same

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
---francis on 12/10/11


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francis //This passage in isiiah 66:22-23 puts us in the future to a time like Eden when there was no sin
---
Simply a very bad or extremely poor interpretation of Isaiah 66.

The clue here is in verse 21 "I will make some of them priests and Levites, declares the LORD."

There would be no need for priests if there is no sin as the duty of priests is to render sacrifice for sin.

A more clear interpretation of Isaiah 66:23 is as follows:

From one month to the next and from one week to the next all people will come to worship me, declares the LORD.

You really need to use good sense when you read the Bible, unfortunately you have been misled by those who know neither the Bible or its Author.
---lee1538 on 12/10/11


2 of 3
How do we know that Isaiah 66:23 Is talking about the new earth and not a period of jewish history?
The verse before it says the new earth.
The big clue is THE NEW MOON AND THE SABBATH.
This puts us in a time similar to eden when there was THE TREE OF LIFE and THE SABBATH
We cannot have the tree of life now, or else we would be life long sinners Genesis 3:22
The tree of life give it's fruit every MONTH (NEW MOON)Revelation 22:2 So every NEW MOON all flesh will come to the NJ to eat of it and worship literally with God just like in Eden.
We will also have the sabbath Just it it was in Eden ebfore sin
This passage in isiiah 66:22-23 puts us in the future to a time like Eden when there was no sin
---francis on 12/10/11


1 of 3
From Isiaih 15 to isaiah 24 God speaks about the final days of earth and the new earth. In verses 15, 16 and 17 God talks about his plan to destroy the wicked. In verses 18,19 and 20 God talks about before the end of the age drawing all nations to him

In verse 21 he declares that he will take some of them ( from all nations) as priest and levites) N.B Peter decalres to the church that we are a royal priesthood, though many of us are not Hebrews, In the church some have the roles of priests, and some of levites.

verse 22-23 God talks about spiritual live in the new heaven once he destroys the wicked ( verse 15)

verse 24 ensures us that the righteous will witness the death of the wicked.
---francis on 12/9/11


francis //I cannot use a bible verse that CLEARLY says that everyone will come before God every sabbath in the new earth to support the view that there will be sabbath keeping in the new earth?

You cannot use Isaiah 66 to convince anyone that the Jewish Sababth will be observed in the New Earth simply because in context it mentions a restoration of the Levitical priesthood - priesthood that pointed forward to the ministry of Christ.

Until you can get around that hurdle, your argument can only be unconvincing.

Christ fulfilled the Sabbath command as well as much of the rest of Mosaic laws in that the Sabbath merely reflected the rest of believers enter into. Try reading Hebrews 4.
---lee1538 on 12/9/11


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Lee, I completely agree with Christan's answer. But wanted to add one thing concerning what he said, the law been fulfilled, it was fulfilled for those who believe by faith in Christ. There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ.
For the Law is very much in effect only to those who have not believed by faith. They are under the Law and very much under condemnation because they broke the law. They all need faith in Christ to remove them from the law and the condemnation of it. For no one can earn righteous standing before God by the works of the law (Gal. 3:11,21,22). The Law was not a means for justification, but as a guidline for living after Israel's commitment to serve the Lord.
---Mark_V. on 12/9/11


Francis -You really cannot use Isaiah 66 to support the view that the Jewish Sabbath will continue into the New Earth ---lee1538 on 12/9/11

LOL I cannot use a bible verse that CLEARLY says that everyone will come before God every sabbath in the new earth to support the view that there will be sabbath keeping in the new earth?

This is along the lines which you said that SDA cannot use THE BIBLE to support sabbath keeping and dietary laws.

what else should we use?
---francis on 12/9/11


Francis -You really cannot use Isaiah 66 to support the view that the Jewish Sabbath will continue into the New Earth as it speaks of a restoration of the Levitical priesthood - a priesthood that offered sacrifices for sin and pointed forward to the ministry of Christ.

Isaiah 66:21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.

So sorry, but your theology really stinks. Your problem is really one of idolatry of the Jewish Sabbath - the same problem as that of the chief enemies of Jesus and you want to identify with them. Shame!

Christians should embrace Christ as He is their Lord as the law was only a temporary measure as a guide until believers could be justified by faith. Gal. 3
---lee1538 on 12/9/11


Everything God creates is perfect. The Law perfectly shows how deprived we are at being holy. The Law is our caretaker until Christ came. (from Romans). The rules from the Law are still good rules to live by that has not changed. See Romans 6:1. For example the law of no tattoos. In ancient cultures people would have tattoos as a idol to there god. God does not want any idols before him. The rule of no tattoos was one way to fullfill this. The entire Law is summed up by love God and love your neighbor but practically this is expressed in OT by the rules extablished by God.
---Scott1 on 12/9/11


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//First off, there are 613 laws, not just 10.

clearly a problem with Adventists in that they limit sin to a violation of the 10 commandments. If they really knew the Scripture they would see that one may sin and not even violate any of the big 10.

For instance, I could kick the living daylights out of Rhonda and as long as I did not kill her, I would be in compliance to the 10 commandments.

They need to know that the righteous live by faith (Romans 1:17, Gal. 3:11), not by the law, especially those laws that had their fulfillment in the ministry of Christ.

It is just too easy to see that the Sabbath commandment merely was a shadow of that rest believers enter into in Christ. Hebrews 4 is not on their study plate.
---lee1538 on 12/9/11


\\If you believe there are no longer any moral laws then there is no such thing as sin. If there is no such thing as sin. Then all people will go to heaven and life in heaven will be like it is here on earth.
****

AMEN

well according to false christianity Christ abolished Gods 10 spiritual holy just perfect laws that are not harsh and can physically be kept through the strength given by Christ (as described in Holy Scripture) \\

First off, there are 613 laws, not jut 10.

Next, sin is bigger than just violation of the Decalogue. Where in the Decalague is, "Thou shalt not eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil"? Yet, doing so was a sin.

Try again, Rhonda.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/9/11


"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Matthew 5:17

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Romans 10:4

When Christ hung on the tree at Calvary, He spoke the very important three last words, "It is finished", meaning He fulfilled Matthew 5:17 and Isaiah 53 prophesies. That is, the demands of the law of God for the penalty of sin for His people And when Christ declared "It is finished" - it is indeed finished.
---christan on 12/9/11


jesus said ,love God,and love your neighbor and u fullfill the law.
---tom2 on 12/9/11


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Cluny,
GREAT answer.
Jesus seemed to mean only one thing when He spoke of the Law:

Matt 24:44
These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the " Law of Moses " and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.

So the Law is the whole law. I've never seen a scriptural qualifier such as:
big laws vs little laws
moral laws vs ceremonial laws
laws for me vs laws for you
laws to keep vs laws to ignore
etc etc etc.....yawn......sigh


man-made jargon meant to keep a yoke on the neck of a believer.
---James_L on 12/8/11


If the sacrificial laws can be fulfilled then why not the Sabbath?
---lee1538 on 12/8/11

The sacrificial laws started after Sin, to show us the plan of redeemption. The plan of redeemption is that an inocent lamb ( IN THIS CASE THE LAMB OF GOD) would die for our sin.

the sabbath was given Before sin to show that God is indeed the creator of heaven and earth.

In the new earth there will be no death, not even that of an animal:
Isaiah 65:25 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
But there will be sabbath:
Isaiah 66:22 For as the the new earth, it shall come to pass, that from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
---francis on 12/8/11


If you believe there are no longer any moral laws then there is no such thing as sin. If there is no such thing as sin. Then all people will go to heaven and life in heaven will be like it is here on earth.
****

AMEN

well according to false christianity Christ abolished Gods 10 spiritual holy just perfect laws that are not harsh and can physically be kept through the strength given by Christ (as described in Holy Scripture)

Yes for these folks there is no such thing as sin now because they have Christ ...sin is a legalistic term as they say ...and sin does not exist for them only the sinner

great point Samuel however these folks are impervious to sin
---Rhonda on 12/8/11


Since I am not an Israelite, neither I nor my ancestors were ever bound by the Law of Moses. So whether or not Jesus fulfilled it back then or will do so later, in either case I'm not affected by that.
---John.usa on 12/8/11


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Samuel //If you believe there are no longer any moral laws then there is no such thing as sin. If there is no such thing as sin. Then all people will go to heaven and life in heaven will be like it is here on earth.
---
One could hardly define keeping the Sabbath as being a moral law since moral law is basic to nearly all societies including those that are pagan.

If the sacrificial laws can be fulfilled then why not the Sabbath as it was but a shadow of our rest in Christ?

The sabbath is based on the rest of God at creation, and Hebrews 4 speaks of believers have entered that rest.

You really have no basis for keeping the OT sabbath as nothing in the New Covenant supports it.



---lee1538 on 12/8/11


Not only did he fulfill the law!
But, he showed you and told you, how to fulfill the law.

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
---TheSeg on 12/8/11


If you make fulfilled done away with as your definition then you would be correct. But Fulfilled does not mean done away with. It means completed, made whole, done.

So we both agree the law is fulfilled we just define what fulfilled means. The sacrificial laws that dealt with pointing to the coming messiah are complete and we no longer have sacrifices. But laws such as do not steal are complete in that JESUS obyed them for us and gives us his righteouness. But they are still in effect.

If you believe there are no longer any moral laws then there is no such thing as sin. If there is no such thing as sin. Then all people will go to heaven and life in heaven will be like it is here on earth.
---Samuel on 12/8/11


Cluny - Barnes notes on Matthew 5:17 speaks of the law as being the 5 books of Moses. See also Barnes Luke 24:44.

Do we have to wait until heaven & earth to pass away before any of those laws are fulfilled or were some merely shadows of things to come, fulfilled in Christ? If so, which ones?

The question is important because there are those that insist that sin is a violation of any law found within the OT.

(1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.)
---lee1538 on 12/8/11


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Matthew 5:17 (NASB77)
17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets, I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.

If Christ fulfilled the Law, then He must have fulfilled ALL of it. He didn't state He came to fulfill just part of the Law.

Galatians 2:16 (NASB77) Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law, since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.
---wivv on 12/8/11


EARTHLY SANCTUARTY..Hebrews 9:24 heaven itself
EARTHLY HIGH PRIEST..Hebrews 3:1 High Priest..Christ Jesus,
PASSOVER LAMB..1 Corinthians 5:7 Christ our passover
SANCTUARY VEIL..Hebrews 10:20 the veil his flesh,
SHEW BREAD..John 6:35 I am the bread
BLOOD OF BULLS AND GOATS.. Hebrews 9:12..his own blood
EARTHLY SANCTUARY LAMP..John 8:12 I am the light
WINE OF THE EARTHLY SANCTUARY..Luke 22:20 my blood shed for you
Exodus 29:36 a sin offering for atonement:...1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins:,
Leviticus 12:3 the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised...Colossians 2:11.. circumcision made without hands,.. circumcision of Christ:

You cannot find the same said about thou shall not steal.
---francis on 12/8/11


First, what does the Bible mean by "The Law"?

The distinction that some people make between the "moral" law and the "ceremonial" (or other) law is a tradition and precept of men supported NOWHERE by the Bible itself.

If Christ did not fulfill ALL the Law, then we are still in our sins.

If Christ fulfilled ALL the law, then it has all passed away.

There is no third alternative.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/8/11


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