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What Is A Cult

What qualifies and quantifies someone as a cult member? This is a piggy-back question from the Mormons thinking they're born again. So do Jehovah Witnesses and Catholics. But what REALLY qualifies a group of people as a cult?

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 ---anon on 12/9/11
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Francis - since Genesis was written by Moses, it was written with respect to what they believed during his time, namely that both ritually clean & unclean animals went into Noah's ark.
---lee1538 on 1/3/12

LOL LOL so you are saying that what Moses wrote concerning genesis may or may not be true
---francis on 1/3/12


Genesis was written by Moses, it was written with respect to what they believed during his time,---lee1538 on 1/3/12

Are you claiming that God did not speak these words to Noah:

Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that [are] not clean by two, the male and his female.

How exactly did Noses know that God had done this:

Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

or this:
Genesis 1:27 God created man

or this:
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
---francis on 1/3/12


Francis - since Genesis was written by Moses, it was written with respect to what they believed during his time, namely that both ritually clean & unclean animals went into Noah's ark.

However, we do see that after the Noahic flood (Genesis 6), no restrictions of food.

(9:3-4) Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.

Francis you would have to deny the very words of Jesus when He declared all food clean. Matthew 15:17f & Mark 7:18f.

Prepare your foods properly and you will have no problems unless you get too fat!
---lee1538 on 1/3/12


---lee1538 on 1/2/12

(CIRCUMCISION) I do not recall that Abrahm was of israel (Circumcision)
Everyone in Abraham house was circumcised MOST of them were not related to abraham by blood, i wonder is Ismael also of israel?

Dietary laws: I do not recall NOAH being of israel:
Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two,

SABBATH: Isaiah 56:6 Also the NON-ISRAELITE, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants EVERY ONE that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant,
---francis on 1/3/12


Jerry//You seem to have a case of scriptural dyslexia. First, the argument is not Jerry's, it is Jesus' words.

Yes, the Jesus that was under the law, fulfilling it and ushering in the New Covenant in His blood.

Galatians 3:23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.

Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

the Church is under the New covenant, not under the Old Sinatic covenant - that ministry of death & condemnation (2 Cor 3:7,9) that served only to reveal sin and our need for a Savior.
---lee1538 on 1/3/12




Lee: "Your argument is much liken to Jerry's on Mt. 5:17 that the heaven & earth must pass away before anything of scripture is fulfilled"

You seem to have a case of scriptural dyslexia. First, the argument is not "Jerry's", it is Jesus' words. Secondly, it is not "anything of scripture that is fulfilled", but that one jot or tittle of the LAW shall not pass away. But that doesn't fit with your man-made religion, does it?

"His word is very clear that if I wish to fulfill the law, I need only to love my neighbor."

If your treatment of your "neighbors" on this website is any indication, you're in a heap of trouble.


---jerry6593 on 1/3/12


Samuel //Second the Bible says all scripture is for us. 2 tim 3:16

Again you have an apparent problem with interpretation of scripture as 2 Tim. 3,16 does not say all commands given by God are applicable to us. There are those that God gave only to Israel and of these there is the sabbath, circumcision, and the Levitical dietary laws.

Your argument is much liken to Jerry's on Mt. 5:17 that the heaven & earth must pass away before anything of scripture is fulfilled believing that the church is still under the Old Covenant law.
---lee1538 on 1/2/12


jerry// It is also a fact that you shake your fist in His face and yell "No, I won't do it!" because you falsely believe that Paul is superior to Jesus and may have negated His Commandments.
---
His word is very clear that if I wish to fulfill the law, I need only to love my neighbor.

I know you totally disagree with what the scripture states but here it is -

The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, not murder, not steal, not covet, and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. ...therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.Romans 13:9-19

Looks to me that you Adventists have yet to make the transition to the New Covenant.
---lee1538 on 1/2/12


Lee: "And since olde Ellen White did not speak according to this word"

Stil with the lying accusations and no evidence or proof, I see. It is a fact the Jesus wrote in stone "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy". It is also a fact that you shake your fist in His face and yell "No, I won't do it!" because you falsely believe that Paul is superior to Jesus and may have negated His Commandments.


---jerry6593 on 1/1/12


If the Old Covenant became obsolete, then it is no longer applicable. You are trying to force New wine into Old wineskins.
lee1538

First you have not shown from Scripture that EGW is false. You make the accusation and say loud and often. But rarely do you quotw scripture.

Second the Bible says all scripture is for us. 2 tim 3:16 When Paul wanted to prove a point and say something was true. He quoted the Old Testament which you say is wrong. Tell me why did not Paul agree with your understanding that the OT is not to be used?
---Samuel on 1/1/12




Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

And since olde Ellen White did not speak according to this word, we can only conclude there was no light in her.

Thank you Jerry for revealing the scripture that pertains to false prophets.

For thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Do not let your prophets and your diviners who are among you deceive you, and do not listen to the dreams that they dream, for it is a lie that they are prophesying to you in my name, I did not send them, declares the LORD.

Good advice!
---lee1538 on 12/31/11


jerry //Don't you realize that your entire religious belief system is founded on denying the Word of God - on trying to make the New Testament contradict the Old

Don't you realize that your entire religious belief system is founded on your assumption that the New Covenant is but a rehash of the Old, that basically selected OT laws are still applicable to the Church.

A covenant is an agreement between parties. In the case of the Old Covenant which became obsolete (Hebr. 8:13), the ministry of death & condemnation written on letters of stone, was replaced by the more glorious ministry of the Spirit.

If the Old Covenant became obsolete, then it is no longer applicable. You are trying to force New wine into Old wineskins.
---lee1538 on 12/30/11


Luke 1:3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
Acts 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

Luke has "perfect understanding of all things from the very first" wrote of the church keeping sabbath not sunday.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
---francis on 12/30/11


Jerry //It is no wonder that you are so confused, when your religion is one of contradictions, and your god is a god of lies.
---
You have never commented on the fact that Adventism started with a lie, or better yet, on the false premise that Christ would come again in October 1844. They should have read the Bible.

What is truly a fools belief, is that since Jesus did not come back in 1844, that He went into the heavenly sanctuary to begin judgment on the human race. That was over 167 years ago! That face saving attempt is much like those that predicted Christ would come back in 1914 and when He did not, these fools claimed that He came invisibilty to set up His church. Pity the poor souls that fall for this kind of stupidity.
---lee1538 on 12/30/11


Lee you forget that we have lost a lot of what the Early church Father wrote.

You forget that they used the term Sabbath and spoke of it giving regulations of what scripture reading to do on Sabbath until they outlawed Sabbath keeping over 300 years after the death of JESUS.

Why should they outlaw something that was not going on?
---Samuel on 12/30/11


Lee: "All the early church writers...blah, blah, blah"

What difference does it make who was the first or when to call Jesus a liar? Satan had already beaten them to it in the Garden of Eden. How can you extoll the wisdom of someone who calls Jesus a liar and still call yourself a Christian?


---jerry6593 on 12/31/11


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Francis //3: The apostles NEVER taught by example, or commandment sunday keeping, but did so of sabbath keeping

All the early church writers (many of whom were direct successors of the Apostles) confirm the fact the Apostles did not teach Sabbath keeping.

What the early church taught was the observance of any day was a matter of individual choice.

To the Roman Church which was largely Gentile, Paul wrote -

Romans 14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

When are you going to concede that the facts are totally contrary to what you want to believe? You even have problems with your SDA church historians!
---lee1538 on 12/29/11


//1: For 100 years after the death of Jesus and in the lifetimes of the apostles the church kept sabbath
2: That it took 100 years after the death of Jesus for the church to fall into such apostasy//

with big hitters like peter judaizing and the always questioned people like paul trying to speak the truth, maybe they finally got it after 100 years of many confrontations.
---aka on 12/29/11


Lee:

Don't you realize that your entire religious belief system is founded on denying the Word of God - on trying to make the New Testament contradict the Old. Christ and the Apostles never did. They affirmed and even quoted from the OT. Even Paul, whom you quote as the sole authority for calling the OT a book of lies, affirmed the the OT as profitable scripture.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

It is no wonder that you are so confused, when your religion is one of contradictions, and your god is a god of lies.
---jerry6593 on 12/30/11


//This tells me that:
1: For 100 years after the death of Jesus and in the lifetimes of the apostles the church kept sabbath
2: That it took 100 years after the death of Jesus for the church to fall into such apostasy

Since the Jerusalem council was held around 50 a.d.- only 20 years after the Cross- convened to decide if Gentile believers had to convert to Judaism, it is more likely the Sabbath as well as other distinctive tenets of Judaism were not imposed onto the Gentile church.

Since this time period was the age of the Apostles it is inescapable they and their immediate successors did not promote Sabbath keeping in Gentile churches.

A good reference on this issue is DA Carson, From Sabbath to Lord's Day.
---lee1538 on 12/29/11


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sunday worship was the norm by 135 A.D. ---lee1538 on 12/27/

This tells me that:
1: For 100 years after the death of Jesus and in the lifetimes of the apostles the church kept sabbath
2: That it took 100 years after the detah of Jesus for the church to fallinto such apostacy
3: The apostles NEVER taught by example, or commandment sunday keeping, but did so of sabbath keeping

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Acts 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made,
---francis on 12/29/11


Markv, I read all the blogs for this question and you offer the most sound advice than anyone. Keep up the good work.
---shira4368 on 12/28/11


Francis - we know from the Scripture there was a conflict between Gentile believers & Jewish believers and issues has to be settled by the Jerusalem council Acts 15. Specifically whether Gentile believers had to convert to Judaism to be legit.

we know from church history the Jerusalem temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. and thus ended the Jewish leadership of the Church.

we know from church historians that Sunday was the day majority of Christians had communal worship by the early 2d century. Even Samuele Bacchiocchi wrote that much.

Since sunday worship was the norm by 135 A.D. the inescapable conclusion is that the Apostles & their immediate successors established sunday as the day of communal worship.
---lee1538 on 12/27/11


''Jehovah's using only one organisation today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we MUST identify that organisation and serve God as part of it.'' (The Watchtower, 2/15/83, p. 12)

''We should meekly go along with the Lord's theocratic organisation and await for further clarification, rather than baulk at the first mention of a thought unpalatable to us and proceed to quibble and mouth our criticisms and opinions as though they were worth more than the slave's provision of spiritual food. Theocratic ones will appreciate the Lord's visible organisation and not be so foolish as to pit against Jehovah's channel their own human reasoning, sentiment and personal feelings.'' (Watchtower, 2/1/ 52, p. 80)
---Marc on 12/27/11


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''After cleansing those belonging to this house Jehovah poured out his spirit upon them and assigned them the responsibility of serving as HIS SOLE VISIBLE CHANNEL, THROUGH WHOM ALONE SPIRITUAL INSTRUCTION WAS TO COME....[you] must recognise and accept this appointment of the ''faithful and discreet slave'' and BE SUBMISSIVE TO IT.'' (Watchtower, 10/1/67, p. 590)

According to The Watchtower, a prophet is someone who foretells. And the prophets ''are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses.'' (Watchtower, 4/1/72, p. 197)
---Marc on 12/27/11


Sorry Francis,but the fact that the early Christians continued in the Mosaic traditions does not in the least support your view that Sabbath observance was imposed on the church.
---lee1538 on 12/27/11

The FACT that they observed the sabbath is DIRECT support for my view

Acts 21:20 And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe, and they are all zealous of the law:
---francis on 12/28/11


Acts 13:42 the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Sorry Francis,but the fact that the early Christians continued in the Mosaic traditions does not in the least support your view that Sabbath observance was imposed on the church.
---lee1538 on 12/27/11

Yes it does!! the fact that the early Christians continued in the Mosaic traditions DOES support the factthat the Sabbath observance was carrried out in the church.

1: they were keeping the commandments of God
2: If there was a sunday keeping church with 100 miles, they would have met on sundays
---francis on 12/27/11


Acts 13:42 the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

i strongly suspect that the reason many were attracted to where the Apostles were preaching is because that along with them there was many miracles being done such as healings, deliverances, etc.

Sorry Francis,but the fact that the early Christians continued in the Mosaic traditions (see Acts 15:2) does not in the least support your view that Sabbath observance was imposed on the church.
---lee1538 on 12/27/11


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2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
---lee1538 on 12/26/11
Acts 13:42 the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Why not use the scripture to CORRECT these gentiles, rather than telling then they can hear the word of God ever Sabbath, and meeting with them next sabbath?

BECAUSE PAUL used it for instruction in (RIGHT LIVING) meeting EVERY sabbath
---francis on 12/27/11


Samuel //They fail to follow 2 tim 3:16 as their basis ...
---
2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

You really need to say the dissenters of Adventism fail to recognize the works of Ellen White as being scripture.

If you limit yourself to what others regard as scripture, you would be very hard pressed to find anything about the SDA Investigative Judgment either in scripture or in the writings of the early church.

You cannot even find a command anyplace in the New Testament to observe the Jewish Sabbath! And that because Adventists are incapable of distinguishing the New Covenant from the Old.
---lee1538 on 12/26/11


Samuel //Yes I have heard of the gentlemen you mentioned.

They fail to follow 2 tim 3:16 as their basis to start with.
---
All of these people I mentioned were long time SDA and well learned and trained in the scripture (pastors, theologians, etc.), how is it that you believe yourself to be far discerning than they were in interpreting scripture? Special anointing that they were not privileged with?

Seems that what lies at the crux of Adventism is their belief that they were given a special anointing by God that others throughout history were not given.

Await your answer!
---lee1538 on 12/26/11


Jerry, what you said is true of you, when you made this statement,

" think that anyone who stoops to bad-mouth other denominations to make himself look more holy is a member of the "salvation-by-denomination-bashing" CULT."

Since the time I came on line three years ago, only SDA's, especially you, have done just what you said. Acting as if you are holier then anyone, as if you do not sin because you keep Saturday Sabbath. Those words you said belong to you. No one here cares what day you want to worship. We respond to your arguments and enough Scripture Truth has been given to you. But you sure want to tell everyone how wrong they are for not worshipping the day you do.
---Mark_V. on 12/27/11


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It it was plain Lee more people who oppose us would be posting scripture instead of just saying we are wrong.

The RCC claimed to change the Sabbath in their writings we originally accepted their statments as true. Now though some historians say they were lying. Which you blame us for just repeating what they were saying.

Yes I have heard of the gentlemen you mentioned. I have read some of their books and have followed many of their statments. For instance Ford still teaches the state of the dead and Sabbath keeping. Which you do not mention. I read articles opposed to the SDA and examine their arguments.

They fail to follow 2 tim 3:16 as their basis to start with.
---Samuel on 12/25/11


Samuel//A cult is any group that put their leader and teachings over the Bible. That is one definition there more.
---
true, and often they will claim all their views are Biblically based, however, it is easy to see that they have twisted the living daylights out of the meaning of Bible verses that are very plain.

And all too often, their historical stand is based on a real distortion of history (i.e. the Catholic church changed the Sabbath to sunday!)

The SDA underwent a purge of members back in the 1980's because there was too much pressure on some pastors and theologians to accept the truth. Ever hear of Desmond Ford, Walter Rae, Fred Veltman, DM Canright, et al.? The list will certainly increase as time goes on.
---lee1538 on 12/22/11


Lets face the facts Jerry, you simply are unable from either the Word of God or from church history to defend those Judaizing doctrines tuaght by the Adventist church.
lee1538

Jerry may not so you say. But I have many times. Evry doctrine but two that we teach can be shown to have been taught in church history and can be proved from the Bible.

If we use the whole Bible as Paul teaches in Timothy and not follow the new doctrine of dispesationlism that creates a false barrier saying not all scripture is for doctrine.

A cult is any group that put their leader and teachings over the Bible. That is one definition there more.
---Samuel on 12/22/11


//I think that anyone who stoops to bad-mouth other denominations to make himself look more holy is a member of the "salvation-by-denomination-bashing" CULT.

How about bad-mouthing the obvious false doctrines of those denominations that have distorted the gospel message?

Those that have fallen into cults are in bondage, both of their money, their time as well as their very souls. Should not those who bear His word seek to deliver those who are enslaved to the god of this world?

Lets face the facts Jerry, you simply are unable from either the Word of God or from church history to defend those Judaizing doctrines tuaght by the Adventist church.
---lee1538 on 12/22/11


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I think that anyone who believes that the Bible can be sufficiently distorted to allow for multi-million-year Evolution is a member of the Darwinism CULT.

I think that anyone who stoops to bad-mouth other denominations to make himself look more holy is a member of the "salvation-by-denomination-bashing" CULT.


---jerry6593 on 12/22/11


Samuel, the word "fulfill" is the word "Pleroo" refers to fill, as a net with fish in (Matt. 13:48) as a house with a perfumed smell in (John 12:3) to fill up, as a valley in (Luke 3:5). or a measure (Matt. 23:32) fill up, supply (Phil. 4:19). to fulfill complete, used of time in (Matt. 2:16: Luke 21:24:).
But here in ( Matthew it means, "to fully satisfy" (Matt. 5:17) When Jesus said that He came not to destroy the law or the prophets but to fulfill the types and prophecies by His actions and suffering, but also to perform perfect obedience to the law of God in His own Person and to enforce and explain it fully in His doctrine. Thus He has satisfied the requirements of the law.
---Mark_V. on 12/19/11


Kathr, what people need to be aware of is you and your answers. They are heretic. When someone claims that Jesus Christ was create a Son, their whole Christology is wrong. And so your answers will also be wrong. You see, there is people here who don't know and need help because they might have something in their theology not right, but you, you teach to twist the meaning of passages, and do it with a vengful heart. And the result is you teach another jesus. Not the Eternal Begotten Son of God.
---Mark_V. on 12/16/11


hello,Family (prayerfully) let me say totally agree with Scott1 12/15/11 it's alsobe carefull put'n any person,or even our gift above the Lord! I truly believe as pointed out brother is correct.
---ELENA on 12/15/11


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The Sabbath is an external observance, nothing to do with the heart.

The Sabbath was a sign of the covenant (Exodus 31:13,17), a sign can only be a ceremonial law.
lee1538

Why can the sign be only a ceremonial law?

To truly keep Sabbath your heart has to be right. The prophets warned about those who follow only with words and not the heart.

You forget that Paul also says the Law is establised by faith. Romans 3:31 Righteouness by works is gone. You need to read Galations, Romans and Hebrews using all the verse not just some.
---Samuel on 12/15/11


Jerry - I answered you with the scripture that the Jewish Sabbath is a ceremonial law and you apparently cannot reply regarding those scripture.

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law".

You seem to want to believe that while Christ fulfilled only part of the law, that Christians are still under the Old Covenant. In that you totally rejection of the scripture that speaks of the Old Covenant as being obsolete (Hebrews 8:13) choosing to believe that the New Covenant is simply a rehash of the Old.

When are you going to accept the truth and not identify with those that were the chief enemies of our Lord, namely the old Pharisees?
---lee1538 on 12/15/11


Jerry -You say I did not use scripture? try reading my post.

The Sabbath was not mandated to Gentile converts at the Jerusalem council Acts 15, if it were a moral law it would have been & emphasized in the Epistles.

The Sabbath merely depicted the rest of God believers enter into Hebrews 4.

The Sabbath is an external observance, nothing to do with the heart. If it did then how did the Gentiles fulfill the law without observance of the Sabbath?

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, ....

The Sabbath was a sign of the covenant (Exodus 31:13,17), a sign can only be a ceremonial law.
---lee1538 on 12/15/11


Another list of cults characteristics sayings
1) My church is perfect
2) Your church is wrong
3) My pastor is awesome, yours is not
4) My church is the correct way of doing things
5) People who just sing hymns are boring and out of touch
6) My church denomination is the truth
I have done this. Whenever we worship the creation of the creator we are a cult.
---Scott1 on 12/15/11


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1: formal religious veneration : worship
2: a system of religious beliefs and ritual, also: its body of adherents
3: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious, also: its body of adherents
4: a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator
5a: great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book), especially: such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad
b: the object of such devotion
c: a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion
We, as the universal body of Christ, should be considered the only cult: for devotion and worship to anything else is all the same.
We are the strangers here.
---micha9344 on 12/15/11


Lee: All you have shown is the usual irrelevant Lee slop, and NO SCRIPTURE that definitively states that:

1) The Sabbath is a ceremonial law.

2) That "The Law" mentioned as the New Covenant excludes the Sabbath (and thus makes Christ a liar). You even quote Matthew 5:17 but ignore verse 18 which says:

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law"

Stick your head outside and see if heaven and earth are still here. If they are, then so is the Sabbath still a part of the Ten Commandments. Either Jesus is lying or you are, and I know which one I believe.


---jerry6593 on 12/15/11


Samuel //Lee you make fufill mean destroy.

No, fulfill to me means more toward completion or fulfillment of some aspect of a law.

For instance, Christ did not destroy the Sabbath as it merely foretold of that rest of God at Creation believers enter into.

And if Jesus destroyed the Sabbath, then why did he permit the Jewish church to continue to honor it while allowing Gentile believers not to observe it?

Romans 14 allows the Christian to honor a day as holy or to eat or not to eat whatever he deems to be food.

I think Acts 15 should be the focus on what was mandated to Gentile believers.
---lee1538 on 12/14/11


Lee you make fufill mean destroy. Which makes the sentance read that JESUS did not come to destroy the law but to destroy it. Which makes no sense.

The law was incomplete and could not save us. The law defines sin as John Wesley taught and the church down through history teaches.
---Samuel on 12/14/11


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Jerry //2) That "The Law" mentioned as the New Covenant excludes the Sabbath (and thus makes Christ a liar).

Whenever the term Law is used in the New Testament, it refers to the first 5 books of Moses, the Torah.

Howbeit, we read also that one of the objectives Christ had while on earth was to fulfill the law.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Since the Sabbath depicted that rest of God at Creation that believers enter into (Hebrews 4), it is clear that the Sabbath law was fulfilled.

Now you know the truth!
---lee1538 on 12/14/11


Jerry//I challenge you to show from scripture alone that: the sabbath is a ceremonial law-

The Sabbath was not mandated to Gentile converts at the Jerusalem council Acts 15, if it were a moral law it would have been & emphasized in the Epistles.

The Sabbath merely depicted the rest of God believers enter into Hebrews 4.

The Sabbath is an external observance, nothing to do with the heart. If it did then how did the Gentiles fulfill the law without observance of the Sabbath?

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, ....

The Sabbath was a sign of the covenant (Exodus 31:13,17), a sign can only be a ceremonial law.
---lee1538 on 12/14/11


Lee: "What is wrong is that the Sabbath commandment mandates the Christian to observe a law that is basically a ceremonial law - a law not found or even hinted of in the New Covenant."

You have swallowed so much of your own poison that you are bereft of reason. I challenge you to show from scripture alone that:

1) The Sabbath is a ceremonial law.

2) That "The Law" mentioned as the New Covenant excludes the Sabbath (and thus makes Christ a liar).


---jerry6593 on 12/14/11


1. Defective Christology.
2. Radical Sectarianism.
3. Authoritative extra-Biblical new revelation.
4. Doctrinal novelties.

All four of these are found in the SDA. Cluny

We believe JESUS was both GOD and man. We believe in the Trinity. You say that is defective why?

I fellowship with many Christians our writers quote other church leaders. I do not hate other churches and calling someone a cult is far more Radical Sectarianism than anything I know of.

All of SDA doctrines except one come from church history.

Orthodox churches place Tradition on par with Scriptue as a Authoritative extra-Biblical new revelation. They murdered church leaders of other denominations. Does this make them a cult?
---Samuel on 12/13/11


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The word "reincarnation" derives from Latin, literally meaning, "entering the flesh again".

A cult is when Calvinists believe being Born Again is our old man spirit RE-ENTERING the flesh Again.

Beware, and listen very carefully!
---kathr4453 on 12/13/11


Further to my comments to Marc 12/12/11, Joseph Rutherford never claimed to be a descendant of any of Jacob's 12 tribes. Membership of the 144,000 'sealed' ones of Revelation 7:4 is not dependant on being a direct descendant of natural Israel.

The 'sealed 144,000' of Rev.7 are sealed by holy spirit and become 'born again' in the spirit. It is not a requirement for members of this heavenly 'born again' group of '144,000' to be direct descendants of Israel's tribes. As Paul said-

'For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter...'- Ro.2:28,29 (KJV).
---David8318 on 12/13/11


\\Most cults have a few things in common.
1) worship of a founder above God/Jesus
2) isolation: degrades many other churchs and promotes itself as the only true church
3) promotes one verse or section above the rest and is contradictory to those "lesser verses"
4) cannot celebrate success of other churchs\\

Just as the Church Jesus founded has four marks--One, Holy, Catholic, and Aposolic--so there are four marks of a cult:

1. Defective Christology.
2. Radical Sectarianism.
3. Authoritative extra-Biblical new revelation.
4. Doctrinal novelties.

All four of these are found in the SDA.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/13/11


Marc- it is spiritual Israel, or 'the Israel of God' that is referred to at Rev.7:4, not fleshly, natural Israel- Gal.6:16, Heb.12:22.

This is confirmed by the fact that the tribal listing at Revelation 7 is not the literal tribes of natural Israel- compare Genesis 49 which lists tribes of natural Israel.

God chooses the 144,000 through holy spirit. There are 144,000 'sealed' ones, as opposed to an innumerable 'great multitude'. God began choosing the 144,000 from Pentecost 33CE (Acts 2:3,4), thus membership of the 144,000 heavenly class has not been the sole preserve of modern day Jehovah's Witnesses.
---David8318 on 12/12/11


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Jerry //Lee: "Salvation is all of grace & not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments".

What's wrong with that? That's what the Bible teaches!
---
What is wrong is that the Sabbath commandment mandates the Christian to observe a law that is basically a ceremonial law - a law not found or even hinted of in the New Covenant.

And it also binds the believer to a shadow that was fulfilled in the ministry of Christ.
---lee1538 on 12/12/11


Most cults have a few things in common.
1) worship of a founder above God/Jesus
2) isolation: degrades many other churchs and promotes itself as the only true church
3) promotes one verse or section above the rest and is contradictory to those "lesser verses"
4) cannot celebrate success of other churchs
---Scott1 on 12/12/11


\\But what did I add to the Scriptures? \\

You added to Scripture by saying the verse in Revelation meant the whole Bible instead of merely the Apocalypse itself.

\\Did I write my own opinions and tell you that they were equal to Scripture?\\

Please tell me what of my OWN opinions I have ever said were equal to Scripture. (BTW, EGW did that all the time.)

\\Did I tell you to perform certain rituals and tell you they were equal to Scripture? \\

I'm engaged in no ritual that Jesus did not say to do in the Scripture.

And, of course, you NEVER take swipes at those who attack YOUR faith, do you?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/12/11


Christians following Christ are not a cult. If Webster published that Christianity is equal to Satanism, would you believe it? many would, because they refuse The Truth. The religious people and the condemned sinners called Christ, Beelzebub the Chief of all devils, and then they arrested him and beat him and murdered him upon a tree. So were these condemned religious people right in their blasphemy of Holy and Righteous Jesus and of their violence against him and in slaying him and nailing him on the tree? Come now, No Christian is a cultist, that is like saying their is a sinner-saint, or an deludued-sound mind, or an evil-good person. Nope, a Christian is not a cultist nor an idolater.
---Eloy on 12/12/11


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Lee: "While there are Christians that do badmouth certain other denominations, it is usually on the basis that they view some doctrines as being non-biblical."

Is that your excuse? Do you think that will impress God in the judgement? If you really believe that someone's doctrine is non-biblical, then show from the Bible exactly how it is non-biblical - without resorting to yours or some biblical expositor's opinion, and without your endless stream of hate-mail against the person and their denomination. Do you really think that you can serve Christ by using Satan's methods?


---jerry6593 on 12/12/11


1Cliff: "A cult is a defamatory label placed on any sect that does not meet the Status Quo of Mainline Protestant Churches!" And what is the Status Quo of Mainline Protestant Churches? Worldliness and confusion?


Lee: "Salvation is all of grace & not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments".

What's wrong with that? That's what the Bible teaches!

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.



---jerry6593 on 12/12/11


A cult is a defamatory label placed on any sect that does not meet the Status Quo of Mainline Protestant Churches!
By definition even the Catholic church is a cult!
(by having a supreme leader)
Christianity is a sect of Judaism

---1st_cliff on 12/11/11


Usually those cults that view themselves as Christian are the ones that absolutely do not recognize those in other denominations as being Christian.

For instance, the SDA has the following statement in the Fundamental beliefs, #18 the Law of God.

"Salvation is all of grace & not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments".

So, believing on Jesus Christ,being regenerated by His Spirit, becoming a new creation in Christ, is not sufficient for salvation.

Thus those who do not observe the Jewish Sabbath are really not Christians, they have only deceived themselves.

They may not admit to this, as Christians of different persuasions are their main target.
---lee1538 on 12/11/11


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Jude 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

While there are Christians that do badmouth certain other denominations, it is usually on the basis that they view some doctrines as being non-biblical.

There are indeed some denominations that were established by false prophets. View the Jehovah Witnesses belief they alone are the true children of God that apart from them there is no salvation.

And then there are those who would want you to believe something happened in the heavenly back in 1844 (167 years ago!). No way to verify!
---lee1538 on 12/11/11


David,

I've always been confused as to how The Watchtower justifies its own 144,000 JWs being all from the 12 tribes of Israel. Care to explain how 144,000 non-Jews, guys like Rutherford etc, suddenly belong to one of Jacob's 12 tribes?
---Marc on 12/11/11


According to Webster, the first two definitions of a "cult" are:

1: formal religious veneration : worship

2: a system of religious beliefs and ritual, also: its body of adherents

So it would seem that any "Christian" is a member of the "cult" of Christ. I'm OK with that.

What is seldom mentioned is the motives of those who take delight in bad-mouthing other denominations in order to supposedly elevate themselves in the eyes of God or their fellows. They are of the CULT of "salvation by denomination bashing", and since they are accusers of the brethren, they are of the synagogue of Satan.

---jerry6593 on 12/10/11


Therefore you yourself are guilty of adding something.

Glory to Jesus Christ.
---Cluny on 12/10/11

I expected you to take a shot at me, merely because you do not like anyone questioning your faith.

I completely understand what The Revelation passage means. If anything, I may be accused of mis-interpreting its meaning or using the passage out of context.

But what did I add to the Scriptures?

Did I write my own opinions and tell you that they were equal to Scripture? Did I tell you to perform certain rituals and tell you they were equal to Scripture?

No. These are the kinds of acts that qualify something as a cult religion.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/10/11


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Not all Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are 'born again'.

A 'born again' is one 'born of the spirit' (John 3:8) and is 'sealed'. God has 'set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts...'- 2 Cor.1:22 (NIV). Thus, a 'born again' person is 'sealed' by holy spirit.

JW's believe as Rev.7:4 says, 'Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel' (NIV). After noting the 144,000 sealed & born again class, Rev.7:9 reveals 'After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count.'

The uncountable 'great multitude' are not the 'sealed' 144,000. The majority of JW's believe they are prospective members of the 'great multitude'.
---David8318 on 12/10/11


\\Rev 22:18-19 "...if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy..."

If something is added to the Scriptures, or if something is removed from the Scriptures, I believe this to be a cult religion. \\

Actually, this passage is talking about taking from, or adding to, the Apocalypse, not the Scriptures as a whole, as there were several books of the NT yet to be written before Revelation was, such as the Gospel according to St. John.

Therefore you yourself are guilty of adding something.

Glory to Jesus Christ.
---Cluny on 12/10/11


"cult" is a derivative of the word "occult", which means, "sight covered, eclipse, a dark way". Thus, a cult is every religion, rather than following Christ the Light. Every religion is a cult. Cults are any religious movements that are nonChristian, these are all false religions. Cults put someone or something in the place of Jesus, they put some other person or thing on Jesus' throne, an idol, where only He sits the Most High God over all. All religion is idolatry. They usually have a set of rules and regulations established by sinners to ease their sinful conscience, and to purposely mislead others down into perdition. The implications are evident: when the blind lead the blind, then both fall into the ditch.
---Eloy on 12/10/11


I define a cult religion by these verses:

Rev 22:18-19 "...if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy..."

If something is added to the Scriptures, or if something is removed from the Scriptures, I believe this to be a cult religion.

I know this may anger some of our Orthodox brethren since they add Apostolic tradition to the Scriptures. I have some problem with that but generally these are traditions from the same men who wrote the Scriptures.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/9/11


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How about how I can first be my own one-person cult, so I can then get into one? By being mainly about myself so cultic people can flatter me into their group (Galatians 4:17), or someone can charm me into a marriage by acting like I'm the greatest person she could ever meet. p-p-p-p-p-p!!!

Be humble and it is hard to tumble (c:

Also, cultic groups can have very different things, and say these are essential but no one else has these isolating items.
---Bill_willa6989 on 12/9/11


I would also add (though hard to properly define) a group of believers (in whatever) whose views are significantly different from those set out in the Bible
---Peter on 12/9/11


Since you reference Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses & Roman Catholics in regard to their distinctive beliefs what you really want is a definition of what a cult religion is.

A cult religion would be defined as any group of people whose beliefs and rituals are not really mainstream or recognized as based upon traditional Biblical interpretations.

A cult religion would not be considered "destructive" if people can join the group freely with knowledge of what the group is really about, and if they can quit the group without fear or pressure.

Usually cult religions have a very defined controlling leadership with doctrinal beliefs and practices that are often contradictory and confusing.
---lee1538 on 12/9/11


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