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Did Rome Rule The Church

Was Rome always the leading church during the first millennium? Was not the center of the Christian faith moved to Constantinople during the 4th century?

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 ---lee1538 on 12/13/11
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Chris, Peter was never a pope of the Roman Church. He was given that authority after he was dead. Peter's successors refered to the Fisherman as "the first pope" and appeal not to the authority of love but to the power invested in them to act as Nero acted. In defiance of Jesus Christ those called Christians were to do unto others as had been done to them. The religion that prided itself on triumphing over persecution by suffering had just become the most persecuting faith the world had ever seen. They began to persecute the race from which Peter and Jesus came from. They made an alliance between throne and altar, and ordered in Christ name all those who disagreed with them to be tortured, and crucified over fires.
---Mark_V. on 2/11/12


\\Constantine organized the Council along the lines of the Roman Senate\\

The Roman Senate was a standing body.

And Ecumenical Council is not.

And Wikipedia is not always a safe source for Church History.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/10/12


Lee thank you for your reply.
That was not my point really I talked about influence not control. As other churches also had influence. I was just making the point that RC had some involvement into what went into the canon.

Constantine organized the Council along the lines of the Roman Senate. Hosius of Cordoba may have presided over its deliberations, he was probably one of the Papal legates.[1 Wiki

Reference churches being swallowed. I did not mean at the council, I meant over time. Such as the Celtic church

It is not a personal view just one of history.
---chris on 1/20/12


chris - the church of Rome has little or no influence on what took place at Nicea in 325 AD. They did have a representative in attendance, but there is no record that he did or contributed anything. Frankly, if the pope really had any power over other churches, he would need only to wave his mitre and make a pronouncement as to what the church was to believe in.

While the council of Nicea has some influence, the battle over the issues discussed still continued for several more centuries, and indeed some of these issues are still hotly debated.
---lee1538 on 1/19/12


Rome is not a church, but a city in Italy. Roman catholicism is a nonChristian religion which uses their own nonBiblical books.
---Eloy on 1/19/12




I think this should be mentioned in relation to the above question.
The RC church was formed in 1st century AD. It says that Peter was its 1st pope. Until it was taken in by Constantine it was persecuted.
Constantine called the 1st meeting at Nicaea in 325ad to get the many church leaders to decide was Jesus made by God or came from God. Also to find a way of starting to go through the three hundred different Bibles or so to come up with a single version. So the RC had influence in what today's Bible comprises of. In the process its suggested by some it swallowed up several churches.
Please note this is history's view.
---chris on 1/18/12


Francis Thank you for your reply.
The Roman Church has had influence since Constantine. Which has fluctuated. Yet It has always been a power.
Prophecy.
Nero in hebrew equates to 666
four beasts Nero, Vespasian, Titus and Domitian.
42 months 64/68Ad the persecution of Christians. Seven year tribulation over 1000000 Christians and Jews slaughtered and Jerusalem taken down stone by stone. 66Ad-73Ad
10 kings 10 emperors. Spiritual Sodom, Pompeii 79 Ad
consumed by fire and brimstone.
If John wrote around Ad 60 Revelation. It fulfills I shall come quickly.
Is prophecy fulfilled or to come? Who knows?
---chris on 1/16/12


I try not to pass judgement on anyone Francis.
---chris on 1/16/12

Understood, but look at the blog question and look atthe prophecy.
---Francis on 1/16/12


//Only ROME fits these prophecies:

This prophecy even if it does reflect a future Rome does not reflect on the current Roman church.

With all the ecumenical movement of denominations joining each other, anything can and will happen.

Who knows maybe someday the Seventh Day Adventists will become part of the Roman Catholic church as we read in the Bible the end time church will be apostate.

apostate + apostate = apostate!
---lee1538 on 1/16/12


I try not to pass judgement on anyone Francis.

As I said the Bible the New Testament showed us how a church should be, as seen through the life of Christ.
How did he run his ministry when he was alive?
---chris on 1/16/12




WHY ARE YOU IGNORING BIBLE PROPHECY?

Only ROME fits these prophecies:
Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast ( ROME) shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and SHALL DEVOUR THE WHOLE EARTH, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them, and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
---francis on 1/16/12


I think its hard to write on such things in such short space.
i need to clarify.
I am not worthy to judge any church including RC as a whole entity. I am saying that there are individuals who have on occasion through the ages manipulated churches, for their own ends, and done deeds at whatever level. Which damage that church and Christ's message.

I think true guidance of what a church should be is shown in the way Christ lived his life and what he taught. Which is found in the Bible.

I think prayer is something you direct straight to Jesus or God not others, including repentance.

When you go to God you go with nothing but your soul.
Blessings


---chris on 1/12/12


Ruben, you ask, how I know that my interpretation is correct compared to yours is obvious. God would never give the keys to His kingdom to a bunch of criminals, murderers, idolater's, man who persecuted the Jew's all through history by orders of their leaders. The Leader of God's Church is Jesus Christ who is sinless. The Apostle Paul referred to Christ as a rock, "That rock was Christ" ( 1 Cor. 10:4). A rock that does not sin. "For who is God besides the Lord?" (Psa. 18:31). "Is there any God besides Me? No, there is no other Rock, I know not one" (Isa. 44:8). "There is no one holy like the Lord, there is no one besides you, there is no rock like our God" ( 1 Samuel 2:2).
---Mark_V. on 1/11/12


Amen Chris

Rome and rcc are aligned to this day ...the vatican is a sovereign state it is a government

any religion alliance with government is an UNHOLY alliance

merging "christianity" with Rome was evil ...it will happen again when the last holy roman empire is resurrected to power over the world before Christ returns

ALL governments of this world BELONG to Satan 2Corin 4:4

any religion aligned with a government (or promoting anything from or about government) is doing the bidding of Satan

one cannot serve TWO masters

the CENTER of the FAITH of TRUE BELIEVERS Of CHRIST is Christ ...not a man or a government

Christ or Apostles never had any alliance with any government
---Rhonda on 1/10/12


Chris, brother you got that right, praise the Lord of glory. If it wasn't for the the Spirit of God, or as mentioned in Scripture, the Spirit of Christ, no one would be doing the work of God. He not only guides us unto all Truth, but He also makes us willing to do His work. Thank you brother and peace I leave you.
---Mark_V. on 1/10/12


Tell me Mark, where in scripture does the Spirit says whose interpretation is correct or says it ok to have many different interpretations?
---Ruben on 1/10/12


Chris, brother you got that right, praise the Lord of glory. If it wasn't for the the Spirit of God, or as mentioned in Scripture, the Spirit of Christ, no one would be doing the work of God. He not only guides us unto all Truth, but He also makes us willing to do His work. Thank you brother and peace I leave you.
---Mark_V. on 1/10/12


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I made an incorrect statement When I said GOD GUIDES EVERYTHING FOR A REASON. What I meant to say GOD WILL GUIDE US IF WE LISTEN.
Many things through the ages have been done under the guise of Christianity. By politically minded people driven by wealth and greed. The Roman Church amongst others. Things that will have horrified Christ and clearly to us have no essence of Christianity.
Yet through it all there have been good Christians who have listened and done God's work.
Whilst others have done the works of the anti-Christ, under Christ's name.
---chris on 1/10/12


Chris, I wanted to correct you because what you said is what the RCC has been saying for centuries. If you noticed they give the glory to people for what they did, they build statues of them, call them saints, worship them, even ask prayers from them. When it is God alone who is Good. He never got the glory in the RCC. All those people did and still do give the glory to their own people. The Lord Jesus takes a back seat to all those idols. The Spirit has always kept a remnant for God. It is the work of God which is directing all things. I believe when people talk they forget who is in control. That's why the reformers were so oppose to the RCC and wanted to reform it.
---Mark_V. on 1/10/12


thank you for your reply MARK.
I was talking on a historical and political base more than religious. God guides everything for a reason. Out of that time came the protestants and Lutharians. In time came the Methodist and Baptist.
Sorry if I have confused by bringing in history and politics. It was not my intent.
Blessings.
---Chris on 1/9/12


Chris, I hate to disagree with you but you are wrong when you said,

"So the fact there is any Christianity today in the world is mainly down to them. If not we would probably all be Muslim and never heard of Christianity."

It was not because of them at all, it was because of the work of the Holy Spirit that we have Christianity today. Please don't give the glory to them but to God. God has always kept a remnant through the centuries. And if He hadn't we would have stay a slave to the RCC. You have no clue what you are talking about when you give the glory to them. They were murderers, molesters, adulterers, and persecuted the Jews for over fifteen centuries.
---Mark_V. on 1/9/12


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Hi Ruben, no offense, but what part of what I wrote do you not agree with?

Thanks,
---trey on 1/6/12

1.Jerusalem, not Rome, was the center of Christianity.

2.The church at Rome became apostate leaving salvation by grace for salvation by works,

3.They state that the Pope "Papa" (father) is sinless.

4.They worship idols, (Virgin Mary, who was not a virgin after Joseph knew her) I could go on, but that's enough evidence for now.
---Ruben on 1/8/12


//Jerusalem, not Rome, was the center of Christianity.//
Jerusalem was never the center of Christianity.
---michael_e on 1/7/12


Don't misunderstand me I am writing, about historical matters, that were probably far more political. Remember the second son of nearly every noble went into the church.It was the main source of getting political views to the masses as well as religious ones.
Whether it truly represented Jesus or the Roman empire re-born is another matter.
The Christ I follow did not take collections often preached at a well or hillside. Taught us to speak directly with God.
---chris on 1/6/12


Hi Ruben, no offense, but what part of what I wrote do you not agree with?

Thanks,
---trey on 1/6/12


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Jesus came to show us a better way. It was simple and uncomplicated. Since the early church man has complicated it.
From the RC with all its pomp to now when we have different doctrines on the net accusing each other.
The real answer to the above question forgetting all the historical matters. It was none of them. The church was in the soul of people all over the known world. Who truly believed in Christ.
Many who died at the hands of pagans in Europe, others who died at the hands of Muslims.
Others who died at the hands of Rome.
The spiritual home of the church will always be Jerusalem because of the resurrection.
---chris on 1/6/12


Jerusalem, not Rome, was the center of Christianity. The church at Rome became apostate leaving salvation by grace for salvation by works, and persecuted and killed the true early Christians. They state that the Pope "Papa" (father) is sinless. They worship idols, (Virgin Mary, who was not a virgin after Joseph knew her) I could go on, but that's enough evidence for now.
Please do not get me wrong, I love God's children who are Roman Catholic, (many of my friends are Roman Catholic) but it grieves me that they are so misled by their church leaders.
---trey on 1/5/12

It grieves me when so many write false imformation about the Church Jesus said "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"
---Ruben on 1/6/12


I am not an RC but one has to understand Europe. After Rome collapsed there was war through Europe and it was almost constant.
In the 7th century Jerusalem became Islamic. Constantinople lost it and Antioch and others. >The early church was very alive in Europe but not united. The RC gradually established itself as united church through Europe. The thing is during their fights against Islam where countries came together. They were still fighting each other at the same time. It was only the RC that managed to get them together to fight the Muslim.
So the fact there is any Christianity today in the world is mainly down to them. If not we would probably all be Muslim and never heard of Christianity.
---chris on 1/6/12


2 unless Christ had come again of course.
---chris on 1/6/12


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While don't we look to the future instead of the past.
---Scott1 on 1/5/12


I thought I was trying to give an opinion on a question actually. Based on historical fact. If the Eastern Roman Empire had not fought as bitterly as it did all of Europe would of fallen to Islam because it was so divided.
The rights and wrongs of the catholic church were not part of this question. It was not until around 800-900 ad that the catholic church was a major force in Europe and the known world. Which in turn fought the invasion of the Moors which was close to seeing much of Europe under Islamic rule.
We then go onto the Crusades and eventually the wars of the reformation and battle with the Ottoman-Turkish empire who finally conquered Constantinople.
---chris on 1/5/12


Jerusalem, not Rome, was the center of Christianity. The church at Rome became apostate leaving salvation by grace for salvation by works, and persecuted and killed the true early Christians. Their priests have molested women and children. They state that the Pope "Papa" (father) is sinless. They worship idols, (Virgin Mary, who was not a virgin after Joseph knew her) and take money as payment for sins. I could go on, but that's enough evidence for now.
Please do not get me wrong, I love God's children who are Roman Catholic, (many of my friends are Roman Catholic) but it grieves me that they are so misled by their church leaders.
---trey on 1/5/12


WHY ARE YOU IGNORING BIBLE PROPHECY?

Only ROME fits these prophecies:
Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast ( ROME) shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and SHALL DEVOUR THE WHOLE EARTH, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them, and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
---francis on 1/4/12


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Nearly all the earliest church councils were sponsored by the Emperor at Constantinople. While Rome may have had a representative, they really were not participants.

The council of Nicea in 325 A.D. was convened to settle the trinity issue among other things.
---lee1538 on 1/4/12


hahaha,from what i hear and see from the mass majority,it still does.
---kevin5443 on 1/4/12


That is a hard question to answer. After the fall of Rome in 410 The Byzantine empire really was the power. Also the early church was still strong at that point though fragmented.
In Britain the Celtic church flourished and the Roman church never really started to get a hold until the 7th century. Whilst one would say that Byzantine empire was the bastion of Christian faith in that time. It stopped Islam from over running the Christian world. Rome went out and built its church in northern Europe. Thus ensuring the future of Christianity.
---chris on 1/4/12


\\Rome is not a church, and neither is any false religion a Christian Church.
---Eloy on 12/22/11\\

That includes Eloyism.
---Cluny on 1/4/12


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//Though the church was called "Christian", only a minority were Christians.

This is largely true today in many of our modern churches. Ask anyone what they believe in and you will get all kinds of answers. Even my wife's brother-in-law who actively attends church, believes that Edgar Cayce the sleeping prophet was from God dispite the fact that he was proven to be a fraud.

And all too often these are the kind of people that rise to the top leadership of our churches.
---lee1538 on 1/3/12


//We have different denominations here//
Why?
Believers were persecuted from the apostles' time until Constantine legalized Christianity, sometime later, another Emperor made Christianity mandatory. Any Christian knows no one can make anyone become a Christian. Instead of making everyone in the Empire Christians, the decree resulted in religions mixing into one and calling themselves "Christian". Followers of Christianity, followers of Judaism, and Pagan religions were now in the same assembly. Though the church was called "Christian", only a minority were Christians. Doctrines of many religions combined, making a "church" doctrine part Christian, part Jewish, and part Pagan.
No different today
---mlchael_e on 1/3/12


True Michael the body of Christ is centered in heaven. We have different denominations here.

I believe that there are Christians in almost every denomination know to GOD alone.
---Samuel on 1/1/12


//Was not the center of the Christian faith moved to Constantinople during the 4th century//
The real Church, the BoC was never centered on earth. Starting with the ascended Christ (Acts 9) calling Paul.
---michael_e on 12/23/11


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Only ROME fits these prophecies:
Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom [are] ten kings [that] shall arise: and another shall rise after them, and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
---francis on 12/23/11


Lawrence, you must be smoking something very serious. Nothing you said is found in (Acts 2:38). Nothing about the Trinity, or satan. Only what you want to add to Scripture. Peter was only answering a question put to him by those "Men and brethren" who were cut to the heart hearing the gospel presented to them. All that stuff you talk about comes from an angry heart. You are walking in the flesh when you answer.
---Mark_V. on 12/23/11


Rome is not a church, and neither is any false religion a Christian Church.
---Eloy on 12/22/11


Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So this verse alone is the salvation verse?

Not John 3:1-21 or I Corithins 15:1-14 these verse have nothing to do with salvation? You are saved by a ceremony that you decide to repent from what? Where is what is a sin in that verse? 2 tim 3: 16 does not mean what it says either does it?

Kinda of like singing a song with only one note.
---Samuel on 12/22/11


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Samuel
The Man - made body of the apostate trinity churches beginning with the r c c , because they came from here, 2nd.Cor.11 v's 14 - 14, God put them here, Rev.17 v's 4 - 6.

The Only Salvation of God Is Acts 2 v 38, The Very Same as The Early Church.
---Lawrence_Nemeth on 12/16/11


Well Lawerence as a Seventh day Adventist I often get accused of saying what your are saying. But you have attacked others with vehemance for not agreeing with you.

When did GOD give you the power to read the hearts of all other people on earth?
---Samuel on 12/15/11


The Early Church Saints ( Acts 2 v 38 ) wasn't going to bow down to the devil with nero, constatine & other roman leaders, so they went in to kill off some of the Acts 2 v 38 Church Saints. So the devil can have his churches, The Man - made apostate trinity relig org's churches & those that worship the gods of islam, buddha, hindu etc.
The Acts 2 v 38 Church Is Still Alive & Well today, until the rapture of The One God Jesus name Church of The Living God takes place.
---Lawrence_Nemeth on 12/15/11


Lee//Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church (Eerdmans, 1910) --

"Rome was the battle-field of orthodoxy and heresy, and a resort of all sects and parties. It attracted from every direction what was true and false in philosophy and religion... Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Cyprian conceded to that church a position of singular pre-eminence. Rome was equally sought as a commanding position by heretics and theosophic jugglers, as Simon Magus, Valentine, Marcion, Cerdo, and a host of others. No wonder, then, that the bishops of Rome at an early date were looked upon as metropolitan pastors, and spoke and acted accordingly with an air of authority which reached far beyond their immediate diocese." (Schaff, volume 2, page 157
---Ruben on 12/15/11


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Christian: 'History has it that Constantine was the emperor that embraced Christianity as he found it pointless to continue persecuting and killing the Christians'

Obviously you have a different meaning of 'history'. In the standard literature, it is listed that Constantine, just before his most important battle, saw an image from God of a cross, with the words 'in this sign succeed' and was converted there. This is the recond of Eusebius, of Palestine
---James on 12/15/11


Samuel: 'In Greece currently the Greek Orthodox church has made it difficult for Christians to witness. One Baptist preacher spent some time in jail for giving a young man a bible.'

Your statement is clearly a case of telling 'part of the truth'

Plenty of protestants give out thousands of Bible each year, with no problem. Having, providing, selling or giving a Bible is completely legal.

It would seem that the Baptist preacher did something ELSE that got him in trouble.

If you can find out what, we can talk about it

Otherwise, you're not telling the whole truth
---Peter on 12/15/11


\\In Greece currently the Greek Orthodox church has made it difficult for Christians to witness. One Baptist preacher spent some time in jail for giving a young man a bible.\\

But the Greek Orthodox Church IS Christian.

Orthodoxy is the Mother Church of Christendom. Who do you think gave you your Bible to start with?

However, the Church of Greece is independent of Constantinople, and has been so since 1821. Contrary to what some people think, the Patriarch of Constantinople is NOT the Orthodox pope.

Glory to Jesus Christ.
---Cluny on 12/15/11


Ruben //Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church (Eerdmans, 1910) --
--
Still older & more important is the distinction of apostolic mother-churches, such as those at Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Ephesus, Corinth and Rome. In the time fo Irenaeus and Tertullian they were held in the hightest regard, as the chief bearers of pure church tradition. Among these Antioch, Alexandria & Rome were the most prominent because they were the capitals respectively of the 3 divisions of th Roman Empire and centers of trade & intercourse, combining with their apostolic origin the greatest political weight. (Schaff, volume 2, page 153)
---lee1538 on 12/14/11


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Rome was the leading church in most of Europe. The Church at Constantinople lead the eastern half.

They did not set up their leader as the Representaive of GOD on earth.

However after the fall of Constantinople to the Turks they had very little political power.

In Greece currently the Greek Orthodox church has made it difficult for Christians to witness. One Baptist preacher spent some time in jail for giving a young man a bible.

Those from the Orhodox view would say yes. The RCC would say no.
---Samuel on 12/14/11


\\Embracing Christianity does not mean he was converted by the Holy Spirit.\\

Doesn't mean he wasn't, either.

\\Constantine merely married his pagan faith with Christianity \\

How? Be specific.

\\ Just look at the Basilica and you can still see all the pagan objects and practice, but using the name of Christ in vain.\\

What Basilica? "Basilica" only refers to a certain type of architecture.

And what pagan objects? (This sounds like the meaningless expression "mahometan furniture".)

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/14/11


Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be DIVERSE FROM ALL KINGDOMS, and DEVOUR THE WHOLE EARTH, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

The kingdoms which came before Rome came only with Military and political power

The full extend of the Roman empire included Military, political and RELIGIOUS power
exercised over the whole earth

Even today, the HOLY SEA is a nation, having it's own ambasadors, own laws, own security, and continues to play a part in the poilitical and religious life of many nations

In the early years the POPES commisions the kings of the world, most notable: Charlemagne, King of the Franks and Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire,
---FRANCIS on 12/14/11


You are actually proving my point, Blogger9211.

There were and still are a lot of Christians of the Antiochene tradition who are Orthodox--yea, Chalcedonian--and in communion with Constantinople.

Try again.

And Orthodoxy and the Copts are looking to restore their ecclesial unity and be reconciled. (This can be said about the non-Chalcedonian churches generally.)

The original question seems to be assuming that everything was micromanaged from Rome or Constantinople. This was never the case until the 16th century or so.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/14/11


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One must remember that the Romans were pagans and they were conquerors of the "world" at the time of Jesus Christ ministry on earth. No where in the Scripture are we taught that the Romans were going to be leading the Christian faith as it is taught today.

History has it that Constantine was the emperor that embraced Christianity as he found it pointless to continue persecuting and killing the Christians. Embracing Christianity does not mean he was converted by the Holy Spirit.

Constantine merely married his pagan faith with Christianity (which Christ and Paul warned us of the false christs to come). Just look at the Basilica and you can still see all the pagan objects and practice, but using the name of Christ in vain.
---christan on 12/14/11


There were a lot of thing going on concurrently and independently the Coptic Church was developing in Egypt there was independent Christian activity an Antioch Syria and St Thomas teaching Christianity India all independent of Rome or Orthodox influence.
---Blogger9211 on 12/13/11


Rome was considered the "Church that presides in love" for many reasons, not the least of which that Ss. Peter and Paul were martyred there.

Constantinople was given second place after old Rome, because its official name was originally New Rome.

However, this is much too complex an issue to discuss in 125 words. Books have been written about this issue.

And it's pointless to discuss matters like this with people who have NO conception of Church history (much less expect them to give intelligent answers to your question here), or who don't even believe that Jesus is God Incarnate.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/13/11


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