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Salvation Based Upon Deeds

Will Christians be judged according to their deeds to see if they merit eternal life?

Moderator - No salvation is a free gift, however our rewards are based upon merit.

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 ---lee1538 on 12/14/11
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Perhaps Kathryn is having a relapse into her old nature that dominated her prior to her acceptance of Jesus as her savior.

Jude 1:23 save others by snatching them out of the fire, to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.

No kathryn I did not get that out of Barnes!
---lee1538 on 12/22/11


Dan aka Mary and MarkV, I have NEVER in any way stated Jesus was CREATED, or that Jesus is an Angel or Michael the Archangel, who is a created being and also what Mormons believe.

Angels have NO BLOOD. Begotten is the opposite of created. Adam was not begotten either but created.

So now we have so many here who lie and bear false witness.

Thank you for showing us all who are the false witnesses.

If your going to make accusations, please show me where I have ever said that.

People don't believe you DAN, but now that you stated that, no one will ever take you serious.
---kathr4453 on 12/22/11


kathr//Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

And it CERTAINLY does not say to the ELECT ONLY!!
---
It is only the Elect that have been given the grace to believe. Sorry Kathr but salvation wholly of God, not of ourselves.

You really need to acquire a book on Christian doctrine and read of the doctrine of election. It is the most misunderstood doctrine in the Bible.

God is the potter you are the clay(Romans 9).

Are you not happy that He is attempting to mold you into something very beautiful?

Or will you continue to fight against His will and grieve His Spirit?
---lee1538 on 12/22/11


Kath, why do you persist on starting trouble every time you answer? Is there any goodness in you? Why not help others in the faith? Every answer you give is not sound. Walk in the Spirit and not the flesh. You will find out it will bring you much joy.
---Mary on 12/22/11


"Anyone can quote anyone they like, especially one out of their own cult. Even an unbeliever can quote anyone they want. So what does that PROVE???" Kathr4453:


Kathr, you have for a time spoken from a Mormon's view, I have read your answers also concerning the jesus you talk about, one who was created a son, which only gives evidence you belong to a cult yourself, which gives evidence you are not Christian. You need to believe in the God of the Bible, Jesus Christ.
---Dan on 12/22/11




Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

The verse does not say, 'to everyone who believes and observes the law'.
---lee1538 on 12/22/11


And it CERTAINLY does not say to the ELECT ONLY!!
---kathr4453 on 12/22/11


The Truth about salvation is not based on deeds as this blog suggest. It's based on the grace of God and by this, it simply means God loves and chooses in His love whom He already wants to save and has given them to His Son Jesus Christ from eternity.

Scripture confirms, "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be Holy and without blame before Him in love"

Many hate this doctrine that God has chosen from eternity. They hate that His election was unconditional as declared,

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth."
---christan on 12/22/11


Eternal Begotten Son of God? And I don't mean a jesus who was created a son. That is the one from the Mormons.
---Mark_V. on 12/22/11

MarkV, Do you believe the WORD made flesh, when the Holy Spirit overshaddowed Mary is a CREATED being? Now some believe and teach that it was when Jesus rose from the Dead that that is when He was Begotten, using Revelation 1 as a proof text. The First Begotten from the Dead. and Romans 1:

3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh,

4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: .
---kathr4453 on 12/22/11


//Anyone can quote anyone they like, especially one out of their own cult. Even an unbeliever can quote anyone they want. So what does that PROVE???

What is does prove is that you truly dislike the teachers the Lord has given His church as you wish to trust in your own little interpretations.

However, I would encourage you to continue to keep focused on Jesus the author & finisher of our faith (Hebr. 12:2), study His word (2 tim. 2:15), pray always in the Spirit (Jude 1:20) and maybe some day you will get an idea as to what it is all about.
---lee1538 on 12/22/11


Kathr -

Titus 2,11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

Barnes Notes:it means ------lee1538 on 12/22/11


So Lee1538, does your always referring to BARNES NOTES mean you are not taught by the Holy Spirit or even HAVE teh Holy Spirit.

Anyone can quote anyone they like, especially one out of their own cult. Even an unbeliever can quote anyone they want. So what does that PROVE???

If a Mormon quoted Joseph Smith, should we all sit up and take notice?
OOOOO AHHHHHH!
---kathr4453 on 12/22/11




//What do YOU mean by "salvation"? Are you saved from your sins, or are you saved from obedience to the law?

Saved from the wrath of God to come and that apart from our own works of rigtheousness.

Sorry Jerry boy but obedience to the 10 commandments will not save you as Jesus is the Savior.

The god of this world has worked within false religions founded by his minions to promote a gospel of salvation by works apart from the gospel of Christ.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

The verse does not say, 'to everyone who believes and observes the law'.
---lee1538 on 12/22/11


Kathr, again, all you did was talk, much of what I heard already from you. When you are ready to address the Truth, I will listen to you, otherwise all your talk and lies means nothing to me. It comes from an angry woman who lives out there some place, and wakes up every morning with idea's on what to say each day to me and those who present Scripture to her. It's a very sorry use of God's time. So who do you say is the Eternal Begotten Son of God? And I don't mean a jesus who was created a son. That is the one from the Mormons.
---Mark_V. on 12/22/11


Lee, thanks for explaining not everyone hear the gospel. The passages that Kathr gave are written that way, they do not refer to every single individual in the world, they refer to mankind in general. A number of Scriptures indicate that Christ died for the world (John 1:29: 3:16: 6:51: 1 Tim. 2:6: Heb. 2:9) But most of the world will be eternally condemned to hell to pay for their own sins, so they could not have been paid for by Christ. "World" indicates the sphere. We know it's not every single individual since from the beginning only Israel received the gospel. The rest died in their sins. We are told in Scripture that the Holy Spirit guided the disciples where to go and not to go. Today God guides us where the gospel is to go.
---Mark_V. on 12/22/11


What do YOU mean by "salvation"? Are you saved from your sins, or are you saved from obedience to the law?


---jerry6593 on 12/22/11


Could not be in the least true since there were many and are many even today that will never hear the gospel message in order to be saved.

---lee1538 on 12/21/11


Are you saying God is a respector of persons and that uneducated poor countries God purposely has omitted from saving...because they are poor and unedutcated????. Any you see yourself, a privledged AMERICAN with more education than anyone as something CHOICE to God?? The TRUE Gospel is not being preached in America. The Gospel of America is being preached in America.

AND no one would ever come up with Calvinism on their own. Simple words the ordinary person sees like "Whosoever Will" take on an entirely different definition with you all.
---kathr4453 on 12/22/11


Kathr -

Titus 2,11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

Barnes Notes:it means that the plan of salvation has been revealed to all classes of men, that is, that it is announced or revealed to all the race that they may be saved.

Not everyone is called to salvation (Romans 9), nor will everyone hear the gospel message (Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?)

Please do yourself and others a favor and stop labeling what others say as a lie. It does not serve your purpose at all!
---lee1538 on 12/22/11


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It seems to me that someone has converted to a doctrine that allows them to escape the guilt of not bringing their own family to Christ.

Its not God's fault that your son didnt accept Jesus Christ. He wasnt kept from the truth by God. He hardened his heart to the Spirit. Stop blaming yourself and God for the err of your son and come back to the truth of scripture.

Its definately not helping your son for you to teach him that Jesus never died for him in the first place because hes an unbeliever at this point in his life. Youre just putting a nail in his coffin. Give your child some hope... if you love him. Thats what love does.
---Blogger9680 on 12/22/11


Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,


Now I know for some this is a hard verse to believe and understand. Not only does it refute select election, but states the opposite.

Or does ALL MEN here again in Calvins dictionary mean THE ELECT?

MarkV, you LIE LIE and can't stop lying.

I absolutely beleve in teh deity of Christ.

YOU brought your own family into CN by saying you fought with your wife tooth and nail UTIL she succumed to Calvinism.



AND 70 x 7 cae ONLY be done by SAVED PEOPLE showing again you are not saved.
---kathr4453 on 12/21/11


MarkV, did it ever occur to you that God puts people in our path to TEACH us how to LOVE, not with our human fleshly love, but HIS Love through us.

As long as you remain in the flesh, you will never LEARN how to walk in the Spirit, or ever allow God to conform you to His Image.

Nothing can come into our lives unless GOD allowes it for a reason.

But it's your LYING and twisting the truth of what people say that is not of God, but SATAN, not yur flesh that is teh real issue here.

When have I ever said I do not believe the WORD was made flesh, and the WORD was God?

OR is it YOU who deny the WORD is God? Must be.

You're not hurting me, but yourself. Everyone here KNOWS you LIE! It's SIN.
---kathr4453 on 12/21/11


\\Since one word (dead) can have so many meanings, understanding what is "spriritual death" may not be so simple an exercise.\\
---Mark_Eaton on 12/21/11


Very astute observation, Mark. I have noticed the same variance of definition with other words in scripture.

Saved, baptize, eternal life, forgiveness, and other words, when over-simplified, should completely destroy any hope that scripture doesn't contradict itself.
---James_L on 12/21/11


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Come on now Mark. I have never seen Kathr try to strip Jesus Christ of his deity. You two merely disagree as to *when* he became the "Son" of God. You say eternally, she and most other Christians say at the birth in the flesh.

The Word was with God and was God. The Word is manifest in the flesh as the only begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ.

That in no way strips him of his deity. I don't think any follower here has denied that Jesus Christ is our Creator come in the flesh.
---JackB on 12/21/11


"And when you address me again christan, refrain from first putting up some scripture to insult first having NOTHING to do withy your false doctrines. Or should I put one up here saying how I should stop casting my pearls to the SWINE and DOGS!!! Do you Like that Christan? If so, are you a dog who has turned again to eat his own vomit? Tow can play that game...still wanna play? Oh I can play too!" kathr

O dear, did I hit a raw nerve with the Word of God in you, o self-righteous Pharisee? Or is this how a "Christian" should react when evidence of the Word is shown and contradict your understanding?
---christan on 12/21/11


Kathr, I've learned to speak to you with the same respect you show me and others. Your lies, your consistent attempt to strip the Lord Jesus Christ of His deity, and the false teachings you present, including your words against my family. I treat no one like I treat you, and you only. I tried all the other things, being kind, to forgive, as I did last year and the year before and nothing I said worked. As I said before, I'm not scared of you and all the names you change to, to hide when you accuse me to make it look like there is many who oppose me, but no one speaks like you. So I can tell when it is you. I still respond to spread the Truth of the gospel. You keep out the lies and accusations, and I will show you real respect.
---Mark_V. on 12/21/11


//Salvation is OFFERED TO ALL but only a few will RECEIVE Jesus Christ into their hearts become a Son of God, born from Above.

Could not be in the least true since there were many and are many even today that will never hear the gospel message in order to be saved.

If everyone were given an opportunity to be saved, then why should we even bother to send out missionaries?
---lee1538 on 12/21/11


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MarkV, teh Only evil I see coming out of anyone's mouth here is yours and christans.

Thank you for your input on Colossians 3. DID I say I disagreed with you? NO! SO why then accuse and make rude and false accusations when all iI stated was we as Christians are DEAD TO THIS WORLD as this scripture teaches here.

Read verses before and after. Yes we died with Christ to THIS WORLD and to SIN. So why are YOU still sinning if you are dead to sin?
---kathr4453 on 12/21/11


MarkV, WHY the nasty remarks? I simply gave a verse that as Christians we too are DEAD. Now you know that being Crucified with Christ what we are DEAD to.

Resurrection life comes out of DEATH. We live in the resurrection life of CHRIST.

Get over yourself. You certainly are not displaying any FRUIT of the Spirit here, but FLESH! Murderious flesh just as Calvin did who's fleshly pride could not accept each person has a personal relationship with Christ, and want to LORD it over and act like the Inquisition.
---kathr4453 on 12/21/11


We note these scripture (and others) seem to indicate Gods grace for salvation is for many, not for all - a position Kathryn wants to promote.

The detailed debate on this issue is in Debating Calvinism by Dave Hunt & James White. I have yet to read the book but am familiar with each of their positions.
---lee1538 on 12/21/11


Salvation is OFFERED TO ALL but only a few will RECEIVE Jesus Christ into their hearts become a Son of God, born from Above.

To as many as receive Him

Jesus died not only for our sin, BUT THE SIN OF THE WHOLE WORLD!
---kathr4453 on 12/21/11


Scripture states that John the Baptist pointed out Christ Jesus and said Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world John 1:29. In Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: Galatians 1:4. And John says "And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world 1 John 2:2.

God made it possible for all to be saved by giving His One and Only Son, Christ Jesus, to pay the price for our sins. The reason some people wont be saved is because they deliberately reject Gods offer of forgiveness. Everyone has the responsibility to accept Gods offer by faith.
---kathr4453 on 12/21/11


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Calvin Dictionary:

The Whole World: means Elect only

Who so ever will: means Elect Only

Faith: THE GIFT

Jesus Christ: Chopped Liver

Born Again: rebirthed man's fallen spirit

Regeneration: man's fallen spirit

Elect: Picked out by hand, before the foundation of the world before anyone even existed.

Sanctification: I can still sin because I am still a sinner just like all sinners.
---kathr4453 on 12/21/11


Kathr, you said,

"Actually Colossians 3 1-4 say WE are dead, yes WE as Christians are DEAD>>>"

The verb's tense indicates that a death has occured in the past, in this case at the death of Jesus Christ, where believers were united with Him, their penalty of sin was paid, and they arose with Him. When Jesus died, the elect is given faith in Christ, he then is united with Christ in death. They did not die physically, the penalty of sin was paid. See (Romans 6:1-11: 2 Cor. 5:17: Gal. 6:14). If you didn't argue and wanted to know the Truth you could. Your missing a contrite heart, that only God can change. Otherwise you remain the same old angry person. Making it a practice to allow evil to come out of your mouth.
---Mark_V. on 12/21/11


Matthew 20:28, Mark 10:45 the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

Matthew 26:28 this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Romans 5:15b For if many died through one mans trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

We note these scripture (and others) seem to indicate Gods grace for salvation is for many, not for all - a position Kathryn wants to promote.

The detailed debate on this issue is in Debating Calvinism by Dave Hunt & James White. I have yet to read the book but am familiar with each of their positions.
---lee1538 on 12/21/11


Not convinced of your view that salvation is in our hands but in the hands of God from start to finish.
---lee1538 on 12/21/11

I am not convinced that the only people chosen by God are the ones who have accepted His gift.

I believe God's truth about election and free will is not covered entirely by the theories of Calvinism or Arminianism. I believe God's truth is much richer and deeper than we can even imagine.

How can we doubt that Christ died for all mankind if God is to be a righteous judge to the world?

The Scripture "many are called but few are chosen" tells us of the true state of God's love.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/21/11


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kathr//Faith is simply believing God's word, wherefore THEN God declares one Justified, and THEN SANCTIFICATION is done from within.

Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Howbeit, the gospel is hidden to the lost as the god of this world has blinded them. 2 cor. 4:3-4

Not convinced of your view that salvation is in our hands but in the hands of God from start to finish.
---lee1538 on 12/21/11


How is it if "faith is within", they do not know who Christ is?

This clearly proves your understanding is in darkness.
---christan on 12/21/11


How is it if faith is without YOU know who Christ is?

Seems to me you're showing the fruit of brainwashing, not brain THINKING!

And when you address me again christan, refrain from first putting up some scripture to insult first having NOTHING to do withy your false doctrines.

Or should I put one up here saying how I should stop casting my pearls to the SWINE and DOGS!!!

Do you Like that Christan? If so, are you a dog who has turned again to eat his own vomit? Tow can play that game...still wanna play? Oh I can play too!
---kathr4453 on 12/21/11


Otherwise anyone can use what he wants.
---Mark_V. on 12/21/11

Thanks for the advice. I currently use Hebrew and Greek lexicons and dictionaries, six different translations, and three different Biblical cross-references. All outside of my Bible software.

I do not say this to congradulate myself, I say this to let you know I agree with what you say.

However, other Scripture and CONTEXT is even more important to understanding what the Scripture says, rather than just the meaning of the words.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/21/11


God's love = election = predestined to be conformed in His Son = the calling (regeneration, when the sinner receives the gift of faith) = justification by faith = sanctification = glorification = SALVATION!

See? Salvation is a ONE complete picture. No cleaver.
---christan on 12/21/11



Sorry!
First is Faith,
leading to Justification
which is=to Salvation,
that leads to regeneration/ Born Again/ New Birth
that leads to sanctification AKA, being Conformed to the Image of Jesus Christ will one day be GLORIFIED together with Christ having bodies fashioned like His. But Glorification is the final act of salvation. We already have that earnest deposit of the Holy Spirit within guaranteeing our salvation.
---kathr4453 on 12/21/11


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A person that wants to know the truth of that meaning, gets whatever infomation there is concerning the word "dead" or "death" for the passage we are reading. And that can only be done by getting help concerning the words in each passage from Hebrew and Greek translations of words for each passage. Otherwise anyone can use what he wants. It takes work but if someone is really interested in the Truth they will do the work. All of us have a responsibility and have no excuse for not doing the work.
---Mark_V. on 12/21/11

Actually Colossians 3 1-4 say WE are dead, yes WE as Christians are DEAD>>>

So no dictionary can help you here, ONLY THE HOLY SPIRIT!!!!
---kathr4453 on 12/21/11


"Yes, truly I say to you, some are rewarded heaven and some are rewarded hell, according to their works. The King will gather all nations and separate the righteous from the sinuous. Those that have well done, good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of the Lord, and those that have wrong done, bad and slothful servant, depart from me all you cursed into the everlasting fire: for I was an hungered, and you all gave me no food, I was thirsty, and you all gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and you all took me not in: naked, and you all clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and you all visited me not. Truly, Inasmuch as you all did nothing for one of the least of these, you all did nothing for me."
---Eloy on 12/21/11


lee, Yes, God Commands, "Go, Work in my vineyard until I come again and receive the fruits thereof, and Do the Works of Christ." And when a soul refuses to obey, that soul is rightly condemned. Jesus says, "Not all they that say to me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of heaven: rather the one that Does the commandments of Father of me which is in heaven. If you all love me, my commandments keep."
---Eloy on 12/21/11


christan, you continue to make SNIDE sarcastic arrogant remarks to those who totally DISAGREE with your false doctrine.


Faith is something WE DO, before we are saved, therefore it comes from us.

You're the one twisting this because if it is as YOU SAY, that YOU personally were given some POWER to believe THEN it would be from within...God FORCING you to believe called "irresistable grace". Irresistable Grace is still GOD WORKING, not you.

Faith is simply believing God's word, wherefore THEN God declares one Justified, and THEN SANCTIFICATION is done from within.

The Gospel call is to ALL SINNERS. Some believe, others "out of PRIDE" refuse.



Come on christan, use your head.
---kathr4453 on 12/21/11


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And that can only be done by getting help concerning the words in each passage from Hebrew and Greek translations of words for each passage -- MarkV

Does this apply to the Greek words HOLOS and KOSMOS as well, Mark?

Matt 16:26 For what is a man profited if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world

You know how precise the Greek language is. Now lie to me and tell me that these words in these two passages dont mean exact what they say.
---JackB on 12/21/11


" If so, those GIFTS are WITHIN." kathr

Sad to say that every time you write (speak) your mind with regards to Scripture, you give evidence of what Christ declared, "But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!" Matthew 6:23

Here's why. If "faith is from within" as you declared, how is it that multitudes of souls are now in Hades? How is it if "faith is from within" they rather choose to go to hell when they can see the kingdom of God? How is it if "faith is within", they do not know who Christ is?

This clearly proves your understanding is in darkness.
---christan on 12/21/11


kathr, you continue to separate/chop the Word of God with your cleaver and you're bleeding "internally" with your theology.

Paul clearly declares to us (the Christians who were elected by God) that our salvation is orderly according to the will and purpose of God. And this is taught by Paul in Romans 8:28-30. The most important thing is does God love you, and we know from Paul's teachings that He doesn't love everyone. So salvation begins with God's love.

God's love = election = predestined to be conformed in His Son = the calling (regeneration, when the sinner receives the gift of faith) = justification by faith = sanctification = glorification = SALVATION!

See? Salvation is a ONE complete picture. No cleaver.
---christan on 12/21/11


Mark E, it is not our right to pick and choose which dead or death meaning we want to use. It is not left to man to make a determination, God has one meaning only for His Word in every passage.
A person that wants to know the truth of that meaning, gets whatever infomation there is concerning the word "dead" or "death" for the passage we are reading. And that can only be done by getting help concerning the words in each passage from Hebrew and Greek translations of words for each passage. Otherwise anyone can use what he wants. It takes work but if someone is really interested in the Truth they will do the work. All of us have a responsibility and have no excuse for not doing the work.
---Mark_V. on 12/21/11


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Since one word can have so many meanings, understanding what is "spriritual death" may not be so simple an exercise.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/21/11


Yes in English.

When studying use a strongs concordance AND compare other scriptures using the same word to give you an understanding.

"DEAD" in James is interesting compared to other words using the SAME WORD!
---kathr4453 on 12/21/11


Since something that's dead doesn't exist, then a "dead end" street means that the street actually doesn't end, since the "end" doesn't exist?
---James_L on 12/20/11

Your post shows my point that the word dead is used multiple ways, even within Scripture.

I have counted no less than six different ways that the word dead or death has been used in Scripture:

Annilation or complete destruction,
Non-existence,
Termination or cessation of being,
Alienation or separation from God,
Absense of life,
and deprivation of essential function

Since one word can have so many meanings, understanding what is "spriritual death" may not be so simple an exercise.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/21/11


Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Seems straightforward enough. Why would someone strive to be a lawbreaker just to show that he is "saved"? It doesn't compute!


---jerry6593 on 12/21/11


Christan, YOU SAY Faith in Ephesians is the GIFT??
There's only one other place faitH is "a GIFT" of the Spirit and that is the FRUIT OF the Spirit Gal 5:22-25. So are you talking about THAT kind of GIFT??? If so, those GIFTS are WITHIN.

The GIFT of Salvation is not one of the Gifts of the Spirit.

So the GIFT of Salvation is told us in Romans 5... JESUS IS THAT GIFT,(NOT FAITH, not the Holy Spirit).

It's Jesus death and resurrection IS WHAT'S CALLED GRACE! Gal 2:20-21 Romans 6-8.

Romans 5 promise GRACE, Romans 6-8 explain HOW GRACE WORKS..AND Gal 2:20-21.

God's Word is LIVING POWERFUL sharper than a two edge sword that can pierce the heart/conscience of any depraved human.
---kathr4453 on 12/21/11


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Anyone read Romans 4-8. Anyone really read Romans 4-8 in the ORDER God spoke it?

What's scarry is Calvinists have not.

GRACE is only BY Jesus Christ. Romans 5:20-21 in CONTRAST to the LAW.

The LAW was WITHOUT, Grace and Righteousness by JESUS CHRIST is WithIN!

And no one can be justified by the LAW=without.

We are justified FIRST by Faith. ...AND THEN the Gift of GRACE is the Gift of Righteousness by ONE JESUS CHRIST: WITHIN! Rom 5:17 through Romans 8
---kathr4453 on 12/21/11


YES. MATT.5:16 Let your shine before men,that they may see your FINE WORKS and give praise to your father who is in the heaven. The fruits of the spirit GAL 5:21 & 22
---bc on 12/20/11


As I read it James explains it well "So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead" James 2:17. He is not saying we are saved by works, far from it. He is saying some people claim to be saved but have no good works to show it. He says "Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works" 2:18.

We have to be suspicious of any person who claims to be saved but has no interest in serving God, by good works. As Paul writes "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." These are of course good works ordained for us to do after we have been saved by God's grace.
---Warwick on 12/20/11


"Without means without Christ, and within means within Christ." kathr

What? Is that your understanding of "from without"? Well, good for you.

Read what I say, "FAITH is from without and not within", that's what I said. Meaning, if God does not choose you for salvation from eternity, you ain't going to receive His special gift called FAITH.

That's what it simply means that "FAITH is from without" - and not all mankind receive that gift from God called FAITH. That's why it's called a GIFT. You cannot work for that gift.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
---christan on 12/20/11


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Christan,

Pitiful deflection. You have spent so long dodging my question that I don't even remember what I asked you.

Oh, well. I guess I'll go argue with a brick wall next.
---James_L on 12/20/11


\\So faith withou works is a dead faith to God, non existant...worthless, separated from God faith.

OH, and the body without the spirit is dead..is also in scripture and is used right after Faith without works is dead\\
---kathr4453 on 12/20/11

So dead means fake, right?

dead faith = fake faith?
dead body = fake body?
dead battery = fake battery?
dead squirrel = fake squirrel?

Since something that's dead doesn't exist, then a "dead end" street means that the street actually doesn't end, since the "end" doesn't exist?
---James_L on 12/20/11


Faith without works is DEAD just as the body without the spirit is DEAD.

Which brings up another interesting subject. WHO's Spirit? Well it really doesn't matter, the body without any Spirit/spirit is dead to God. So faith withou works is a dead faith to God, non existant...worthless, separated from God faith. Cant'e be a Gift from God then can it???

OH, and the body without the spirit is dead..is also in scripture and is used right after Faith without works is dead...

26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
---kathr4453 on 12/20/11


Lee, you said,
"Totally agree however, good works are evidence of our salvation"

They want to show evidence to us, for God doesn't need evidence to know who He saved already. The SDA's what to show their evidence to us by keeping Saturday Sabbath as if that will save them. God only knows which of them are saved and which are not. No amount of Saturday keeping will save any of them. There talk is all of boasting how holy they are above others who don't keep the Saturday Sabbath.
---Mark_V. on 12/20/11


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\\The change of heart in the sinner is from without and not within.\\
---christan on 12/16/11


Without means without Christ, and within means within Christ.

Change is from WITHIN, as it is HIS LIFE flowing out of you. If you say from without, you mean without Christ, and in your own effort.

The LOVE OF GOD has been shed abroad IN OUR HEART by teh Holy Spirit. We don't have a clue what LOVE IS, I mean Agape Love until you have first tasted HIS LOVE.

But Chriatan means without meaning having his man spirit rebirthed. It's STILL not God's divine life flowing THROUGH YOU,( 2 Peter 1) but your own lower than the angels human love, and is still not going to CHANGE YOU.
---kathr4453 on 12/20/11


MarkV //the genuine Christians will not be judge by their works to see if they merit salvation. Salvation is all by grace.

Totally agree however, good works are evidence of our salvation.

Adventists OTOH believe that grace is merely a provision that enables them to obey the law and thus merit salvation.

In 1 Cor. 5 we have the case of the man who was sleeping with his step-mother. While he was condemned for what he was doing, the text goes on to state "you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord".

The SDA Investigative Judgment doctrine is clearly a demonic doctrine.
---lee1538 on 12/19/11


James_L,

You accuse me of "so deficient in the English languae", then how is it that what I have written somehow makes some sense to you that causes you to reply to my blog?

BTW, "languae" is spelt language.

You're just being a hypocrite when you say, "And since opinions vary so greatly, it is only fair that I understand YOUR position before I jump to a conclusion about it."

I'm sure you don't mean a word you say here. You accuse one of doing what you do best.
---christan on 12/19/11


James_L....why do you ask me questions that pertains to spiritual birth?

I asked the question so that I can understand what YOU meant. I know full well what I mean, but I am not a mind reader.

Plus, you are so deficient in the English languae that you did not make it clear exactly what you meant

And since opinions vary so greatly, it is only fair that I understand YOUR position before I jump to a conclusion about it.

Seems you're not as eager to understand someone's position before accusing them of believing something they do not.

Are you going to answer the question or not?
---James_L on 12/17/11


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Lee, the genuine Christians will not be judge by their works to see if they merit salvation. Salvation is all by grace. There is no merit in grace. It's all of God. The unbelievers will be judge by their works, the books will be opened and the list will be read, and they will receive what they have coming to them at the Great White Throne of Judgment. Unbelievers will not go to the Judgment Seat of Christ, those who go there are only genuine believers who already have been given eternal life by God. God never take back eternal life He gives to believers if they fail in some way, since their salvation was all of God, for He chose them from the foundation of the world to be saved and have eternal life.
---Mark_V. on 12/18/11


MODERATOR - Merit system - Read MATTHEW 20 - Parable of the workers in the vineyard ! it goes against what your saying,
---RICHARDC on 12/18/11


"And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life, he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." (1 John 5:11-12)

So, we don't merit eternal life, but Jesus shares His eternal life with us > Jesus in us shares with us how He pleases and submits to and relates with our Heavenly Father while He also shares with us how He loves any and all people. So, true eternal life is His love life now in us > see Romans 5:5 > this is quality time with God, now, not just quantity later (c: So, with Jesus being "formed in you" (Galatians 4:19), we grow in how He relates lovingly with God and people. His eternal love-life in us has us doing His works.
---Bill_willa6989 on 12/17/11


James_L, since you claim to know the subject of regeneration and have the eagerness to teach one being born of the Spirit - why do you ask me questions that pertains to spiritual birth?

And what is it that you do not understand that when one is born of the Spirit he receives faith from the Spirit? Which means the faith he receives from God is not from within but from without.

You teach regeneration and you don't even know what is from without means? So much for your understanding of spiritual regeneration.
---christan on 12/17/11


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\\The change of heart in the sinner is from without and not within.\\
---christan on 12/16/11


I'm not exactly sure what you are saying.

Are you saying that when someone believes the gospel, the change occurs from the outside in? Start acting righteous (outside) and then it will take over your heart (in)? In other words, fake it 'til you make it?

Or are you saying that the change happpens from the inside out? That God regenerates our spirit (inside), and we now have a divine nature which flows (out) to our behavior?

Or are you saying that the change is from outside (from God) in (to our hearts)?
---James_L on 12/16/11


James_L, salvation is salvation. Dictionary tells us it means, "deliverance from the power and penalty of sin, redemption."

Maybe in your own published dictionary version it says, "BUT, salvation is MUCH broader than you think. There are several aspects of salvation."

Let me show you verses that confirms the dictionary definition and contradict your definition, o wise one.

"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." Matthew 1:21, "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" Romans 3:24
---christan on 12/16/11


\\you...declare that...one...can lose his salvation...\\
---christan on 12/16/11


What do you mean by "salvation"

If you mean justification, redemption, regeneration, etc, you are wrong. I don't believe that.

No believer will ever perish.


BUT, salvation is MUCH broader than you think.

There are several aspects of salvation.


Justification - by faith alone.

A clear conscience - through baptism

Resurrection - everyone, regardless of faith

Inheritance - suffering (by faith) with Christ

Rewards - faith + works
---James_L on 12/16/11


"Just where have you read that I believe otherwise? That statement is either made out of sheer ignorance, or it is an outright lie." James_L

Didn't you say, "The change was internal. And it came about through believing the message of Jesus dying to cover all my faults"

The change of heart in the sinner is from without and not within. When God changes a sinner's heart, the consequence is he believe in Jesus Christ. See the difference?

You have to say that salvation is by grace because it's in the Scriptures, but you trample on God's grace when you continue to declare that unless one obey the laws of God, he can lose his salvation which is never taught as salvation by grace.
---christan on 12/16/11


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\\James_L...the Scripture, taking them out of context - you are speaking the truth?\\
---Christan

Hmmm. I see you offer no explanation as to exactly HOW I've taken them out of context. Par for the course.


\\...when a Christian is saved by God's grace....You believe otherwise.\\
---Christan

Just where have you read that I believe otherwise? That statement is either made out of sheer ignorance, or it is an outright lie.


2Cor 5:9-10
"...we make it our aim to please Him. For We Must All Appear Before The Judgment Seat Of Christ, So That Each May Receive Recompense For What Has Been Done In The Body, Whether Good Or Evil."


Care to take a swing at that one? In Context ???
---James_L on 12/16/11


Samuel said:
"Keeping Commandments show if we have been born again or not"

And what are his commandments?
1John3:23 "we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment."

Samuel I suspect you refer to the law. If so you condemn yourself.
Gal 2:17-23
"...For if I build again the things which I destroyed (Law), I make myself a transgressor...
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God........ I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

---Haz27 on 12/16/11


Samuel, "keeping God's commandments" is admitting you have sin against Him, repenting, trusting in Jesus Christ for "Christ is the end of the law".

Scripture tells us, "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Romans 3:20

The question really is, have you repented to God and turn to Jesus for salvation? If you have, then that's keeping the law of God. However, both you and James still insist in the walk of "obeying the law" in order to be saved which is definitely not the walk of grace but the walk of being "justified in the flesh" or you will lose your salvation.
---christan on 12/15/11


Good point James. Works is about rewards.

Keeping Commandments show if we have been born again or not.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Following GOD is the result of being saved.
---Samuel on 12/15/11


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James_L, do you really think that when you quote verses from the Scripture, taking them out of context - you are speaking the truth?

It's clear to everyone here that you are a works monger who trample on the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ as far as salvation is concerned?

There's no need for us to engage with each other as far as salvation by grace is concern. And that's because you do not believe nor have tasted what grace is.

I believe that when a Christian is saved by God's grace, no one and nothing can snatch him out of the Father's hands. Meaning, a Christian can never lose his salvation. You believe otherwise. Hence there's nothing for us to discuss.

Please, continue working for your salvation.
---christan on 12/15/11


Christan,

I noticed your comments toward the moderator lacked any scripture references.

1Cor 3:11-15
"...the foundation is Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precios stones, wood hay, straw - the work of each builder will becoe visible, for the Day will disclose is, because it will be reveales with fireand the fire will test what sort of work each has done.

If What Has Been Built On The Foundation Survives, The Builder Will Receive A Reward.

If The Work Is Burned Up, The Builder Will Suffer Loss, The Builder Will Be Saved, But Only As [one escaping through] Fire" (NRSV)


Will You Have A Rebuttal Against What Is Written In Scripture, Christan?
---James_L on 12/15/11


Lee: The problem with that is that our deeds are NOT sufficient, as even in our 'good deeds' sin is lurking.

We will be checked in our humility, love for others, etc

But those are insufficient for salvation, as not payment can be made for our sins
---Peter on 12/15/11


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