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Star And The Three Kings

Where did the star direct the three kings?

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 ---Paul on 12/19/11
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Finally! Strongaxe has seen the light and blames Satan for the attempt on Jesus' life. Wow... that took a long time coming. See it doesn't hurt to blame Satan for the Bethlehem massacre in Matthew chapter 2.

Yet strongaxe is still talking with a forked tongue. In one breath he blames Satan for trying to kill Jesus, yet at the same time continues to blame God for the massacre in Bethlehem which was Satan's attempt (using Herod) to kill Jesus. So it's anyones guess as to who strongaxe is really loyal to.

How does strongaxe think Satan got Herod involved in the first place? The Devil is in the detail- strongaxe appears to psychologically blank out the detail. Takes no fool to recognise Satan was the 'star' jockey.
---David8318 on 1/13/12


That Satan was behind the attempted murder of Jesus is not in dispute. That he sent the Star of Bethlehem is. The Bible has no evidence of this whatsoever. All we have is your own conclusions based on several levels of flawed assumptions.

You said: It was the responsibility of the parents of any child to take steps to enter the ark.

In other words, it was their parents' fault that children died in the flood. I.e. those children were punished for the sins of their parents.

Israel was under foreign occupation for centuries, because of their sin. It's not unreasonable to say that any calamities visited on them as a result (including slaughter by Herod, a foreign king) was a result of this.
---StrongAxe on 1/13/12

David, is that the best you can do, accuse others? Your twisted ideas are wrong. You first give credit to the devil for creating a star. Then you say it was ok for God to kill all the children of the Canaanites, Amorites etc. because as you say it's ok for Him to do that because,

"The Canaanites were occupying land God had already assigned to His people Israel"

What fault did the children have? What did they do wrong? If you knew why He did that then you would know what an act of love from God is. But you don't. And you cannot explain why? So you come out with all your accusations. You know nothing of what you are talking about.
---Mark_V. on 1/13/12

'Suposition and innuendo'? The attempted murder of God's son Jesus Christ and the resultant murder of innocent children in Bethlehem is according to strongaxe only 'suposition and innuendo' that it was the work of Satan the Devil.

I believe it is hard irrefutable evidence that Satan was behind the so called 'star', which directly led to Heord's attempt on the life of Jesus and the murder of innocent children in Bethlehem.

God condemns astrology, would not have schemed to have his own son killed, never brings judgment without first issuing warnings, always claims responsibility for His action and never commits an act of atrocity against his own people.
---David8318 on 1/13/12

Strongaxe- you continually fail to understand how God acts. I believe deliberately so as to avoid offending your overlord, Satan the Devil.

God used Noah to warning the flood was coming- 2 Pe.2:5. It was the responsibility of the parents of any child to take steps to enter the ark. God always used prophets to sound a warning before ever he acted so that any could repent and amend their ways. Even Nineveh repented due to His prophetic warnings (Jonah 3:10). God never acts without warning.

What sins had the Jewish fathers in Bethlehem committed- Matthew 2? What evidence backs up your theory it was God murdering his people in Bethlehem? You believe God wanted his own son killed, but had children in Bethlehem murdered instead?
---David8318 on 1/12/12

Strongaxe, you refuse to blame Satan for the murder of Bethlehem's children in Matthew chapter 2 because lack of testimony from 2 or 3 witnesses, yet you hypocritically blame God without any witness or testimony.

Again you are quick to defend accusatons against Satan, but have no problem laying the blame for the death of innocant children at God's door. I'm happy and overjoyed to be defending God against your accusation that God caused the death of innocent children. The events in Matthew chapter 2 do not carry the hallmarks of God's activity when carrying out judgments. The kids in Bethlehem were not being judged by God. They were being murdered by Herod.

Where does the evidence lead? Was it God or Satan influencing Herod?
---David8318 on 1/12/12


I have no problem blaming Satan for anything. However, I do not accuse anyone without proof. The Biblical standard for any accusations is testimony of 2-3 witnesses. Here, we have no witness testimony at all that Satan sent the Star, merely supposition and innuendo.

Your theory depends on the idea that God would never order the murder of innocents. Yet undoubtedly countless babies drowned in the Flood. God sometimes commanded Israel to destroy other tribes, including livestock and children. Innocent children punished for the sins of their fathers.

Jesus was asked if those on whom the Tower of Siloam fell were greater sinners than anyone else, and he said they weren't. Yet it fell on them anyway.
---StrongAxe on 1/12/12

MarkV I lost respect for you a long time ago, and quite rightly so because you like strongaxe appear to be very ill at ease with blaming Satan the Devil for the atrocity meted out to God's people by Herod in Matthew chapter 2. An atrocity that led to the unjust, wicked slaughter of innocent young children.

All the scriptures you and strongaxe deliver up prove how God acts. God always sends his prophets to warn people of his judgments, God never acts without first letting people know and the reasons for His actions. God also tells us that it is He who is acting.

The Canaanites were occupying land God had already assigned to His people Israel.

MarkV- earn some respect and blame Satan for the atrocity at Matthew chapter 2.
---David8318 on 1/12/12

David, what you just said was terrible. I have lost complete respect for you. You have no right to say what you did, when he has been very kind answering.
The cause of all things is not always satan, something it is the cause of man sinful nature, sometimes it is because of God. All Strongaxe gave you was one passage. I also gave you another, the children of all the other nations God dealed with. All good answers that you just don't believe and just because you don't believe it you call Strongaxe out as a satanist. You falsely accuse another brother. "You Shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" The ninth Commandment.
---Mark_V. on 1/12/12

'What had those children done?'- MarkV (1/11/12).

Analyse the vast difference between God's judgments on a wayward people (the Canaanites) to that of the atrocity committed by Herod against God's people in Bethlehem in Matthew chapter 2- instigated by the "little star of Bethlehem", you can begin to understand the fallacy of MarkV argument.

I'm not going to start cross examining God's decisions. God's reasons for driving out the Canaanites from the land designated for Israel many years previously is understandable.

The events in Matthew chapter 2 do not carry the hallmark of a God who doesn't act without warning, claims responsibility for His actions, and never needlessly murders children of His own people.
---David8318 on 1/12/12

Noticeable how strongaxe again rushes to the defence of Satan the Devil. 'Why blame Satan?' says strongaxe. 'When the man was born blind, Jesus's apostles asked whose sin was responsible (his, or his parents'). Jesus said neither' is strongaxe reasoning. Why does strongaxe not apply the same reasoning to the Almighty God as he does in his defence of Satan?

Strongaxe is quick to lay the blame at the feet of God for the slaughter of children in Bethlehem as recorded in Matthew chapter 2 'because of the sin of their parents' but woe betides anybody who uses the same argument against Satan. As I suspected, strongaxe claims he is not a Satanist, but he sure is a Satan sympathiser.
---David8318 on 1/12/12

David, again you said,
"What errors had those children (or their fathers) in Bethlehem committed against God? Of course the short answer to that is none, unless you believe God is a ruthless God killing innocent people on a whim."

Here is what God has to say,
"But of the cities of these people, which the Lord they God doth give thee for an inheritance, "thou shall save alive nothing that breatheth" but though shalt utterly destroy them, namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites, as the Lord they God hath commanded thee"

Now, does God do what He wants? What had those children done? They were thousands of them.
---Mark_V. on 1/11/12

David, (2 Thess. 2:9) is talking about a future event. Even so, it has nothing to do with satan moving are creating a star. The lawless one will have power which is deception, luring the fallen world to worship him and be damned. His influness is limited to deceiving the unsaved who will believe his lies (Matt. 24:24: John 8:41-44). You are believing the lies youself. I don't know what god you have in mind, but the God of Scripture created all things. "For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: To whom be glory forever" ( Rom. 11:36). God's holiness is manifested in His works. "The Lord is righteous in all His ways, and holy is all His works" ( Psa. 145:17).
---Mark_V. on 1/11/12


And why blame Satan? Many people have a black-and-white cause-and-effect attitude: good things happen to good people, bad things happen to bad people (or as a result of bad people).

This kind of thinking is simplistic. When the man was born blind, Jesus's apostles asked whose sin was responsible (his, or his parents'). Jesus said neither.

When Herod mixed people's blood with their sacrifices, or some were killed by the Tower of Siloam, Jesus said that those people weren't to blame. Note that he also didn't blame any other third parties either.
---StrongAxe on 1/9/12

When we analyse the scriptures strongaxe uses in defense of his belief that God sent the star causing the murder of 'boys under 2' in Bethlehem (apparently for the sins of their fathers) we realise that in all the cases where God has acted to bring 'disaster' and 'calamity' to disobedient people- God does claim to be carrying out the action. God takes responsibility for His justifiable actions (see verses strongaxe posted 1/6/12).

However, in Matthew chapter 2, God does not claim responsibility for the murder of the children in Bethlehem, neither does God claim responsibility for the 'star' that directly involved Herod in the first place. Yet strongaxe is quick to blame God and not Satan for this atrocity. My question is why blame God?
---David8318 on 1/9/12

MarkV- again you like strongaxe take verses completely out of context. Both the Isaiah and Amos verses you quote show God acting against a wayward people- in the case of Isaiah 45:7, it was the people of Babylon. In the case of Amos 3:6, it was for the 'errors of the sons of Israel'- Amos 3:2.

What errors had those children (or their fathers) in Bethlehem committed against God? Of course the short answer to that is none, unless you believe God is a ruthless God killing innocent people on a whim. Satan had sent a 'lying sign and portent' (2 Thess.2:9) in the shape of a 'star', which led Herod to Bethlehem. For sure God knew what would happen- but God did not cause that atrocity by sending the 'star' in the first place.
---David8318 on 1/9/12

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God punishes the children for the sins of their fathers all the time. Adam slipped up one single time, and 7 billion people are still paying the price.

I said: Does this mean Job and Mary and Jesus were evil? Such a conclusion is ridiculous.

I think that's pretty obvious and unambiguous - blaming Mary for Herod slaughtering the innocents is totally ridiculous, and blaming the Star for it (and thus attributing it to Satan) is equally ridiculous.
---StrongAxe on 1/8/12

David, the enemy creating a Star? Why would God exterminate the Canaanites? He had a purpose in mind. Why would God send an angel to warn Joseph? So that Jesus Christ could be save. Did God know the children would be killed? Of course, the reason He advice Joseph. Could God have stopped the killing? Of course, He is God. When the angel of death came through the town, Israel put blood on their doors, the firstborn inside were saved, the others died. Could God have saved the others? Of course, He is God.
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I am Jehovah that doeth all theses things" (Isa. 45:7). "Shall evil befall a city and Jehovah hath not done it?" Amos 3:6.
---Mark_V. on 1/7/12

StrongAxe- you speak with a forked tongue. Your argument is couched with double meanings. So when you say 'the conclusion is ridiculous', to which statement are you referring?

Is it that Job, Mary and Jesus being evil is ridiculous? Is it that God's plans are ridiculous? Or is it Satan taking advantage of God's plans which is ridiculous?

I don't for one moment believe Job, Mary, Jesus are evil or God's plans are ridiculous. I don't believe it was God's plan for innocent children to die because of Mary having Jesus. Why would God want death associated with Jesus' birth?

But I do agree that Satan took advantage of the situation Jesus was in as a child to attempt his murder, resulting in the death of many young boys.
---David8318 on 1/7/12

StrongAxe- the verses you cite to support your view that God is justified in the murder of innocent children in Bethlehem are misapplied.

I'm looking at the NIV translation at those verses (except 1 Sam.1:15-17 which you completely misapply) and it uses words such as 'disaster' and 'calamity'. But you fail to understand the reason why God sent 'calamity' to those people, highlighting your superficial understanding. THEY WERE DISOBEDIENT TO GOD and deserved punishment.

So you must believe those boys under 2 in Bethlehem were all disobedient to God and deserved to be put to death. That's why God sent the star is it? Oh well, you carry on strongaxe. If you want to attribute an atrocity of that magnitude to God, then you take care.
---David8318 on 1/7/12

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If you think God incapable of evil, reread Judges 9:23, 1 Samuel 1:15-16, 1 Kings 9:9, 2 Kings 21:12, 2 Chronicles 7:22, Nehemiah 13:18, Jeremiah 19:3,15, 23:2, 26:13, 35:17, 40:2 which explicitly say he sends evil.

Who is to blame for the death of Job's family? Satan tormented Job WITH GOD'S BLESSING.

Why are YOU so eager to attribute the Star of Bethlehem to Satan? Most Christians have attributed it to God, yet you alone do otherwise. Why? Do you have some special revelation all other Christians throughout history lack?

I am not a Satanist. Yet you curiously waste much time hurling personal accusations and insults at me instead of sticking to the issue. Satan is the accuser. Why are you using his methods?
---StrongAxe on 1/6/12

StrongAxe, the Bible makes no mention of the Star being God's plan either.

You state Satan takes advantage of God's plans. You state, 'Mary bearing Jesus got children killed'. It was God's plan for Mary to bear Jesus- but was it also for the murder of innocent children?

Was it God's plan for Jesus or a town of young boys to be murdered or Satan's plan?

You can claim I read between the lines, but I will not attribute evil to God- Job 34:10. I have no qualms about attributing the death of innocent children to Satan using a star in his effort to do so.

StrongAxe, are you a Satanist? You seem eager to not want to attribute the evil perpetrated in Matthew chapter 2 to Satan but to God. Why?
---David8318 on 1/6/12


You obviously did not actually read what I wrote. I said that blaming Job for the death of his family was a RIDICULOUS conclusion. Yet blaming the Star of Bethlehem (which God sent) for the death of the innocent children is EQUALLY RIDICULOUS.
---StrongAxe on 1/6/12

StrongAxe- I'm sorry but your comments 1/6/12 are a shocking disgrace!

So you think it was 'Jobs righteousness' that killed his family? Are you serious!? Haven't you read Job? Do you blank out Satan's involvement with the death of Jobs family? You believe Satan had nothing to do with Jobs suffering? (Job 2:4-7)

Jesus preaching the gospel got Stephen and other apostles killed? It was people's hatred toward the Good News that had them killed, not Jesus. Satan wants to stop the preaching work- Rev.12:17.

Satan (and Herod) wanted the death of Jesus and all boys in Bethlehem were sacrificed for this thanks to the 'star'.

Who wanted Job to suffer, for the apostles to be killed, for Jesus to be killed- God or Satan!?
---David8318 on 1/6/12

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Satan takes advantage of God's plans all the time. That doesn't make them any less God's plans. The Bible is full of examples. Job's righteousness got his family killed. Mary bearing Jesus got children killed. Jesus preaching the gospel got Stephen, Peter, Paul, and other killed. Does this mean Job and Mary and Jesus were evil? Such a conclusion is ridiculous.

The Bible makes no mention of the Star being Satan's plan. Such a deduction is 100% reading between the lines.

If the Magi had not visited Jesus, Herod's advisors might later have given the same advice anyway, and when he DID murder the children, Jesus and his family would not afforded the flight to Egypt. So who would have benefited?
---StrongAxe on 1/6/12

StrongAxe- you can wax lyrical all day long about what and who the magi or Herod knew. The magi, Herod and who saw who and when- it's all background detail.

Bottom line is who ever was responsible for the 'star', caused the murder of innocent young children in Bethlehem, and an attempt on Jesus' life at a young age.

As a free thinking Christian, I can consider- did the Almighty God put the 'star' there to lead the magi? Or was it Satan? Both God and Satan would have known who Herod was, his personality, his thinking and his intentions. Did God not know who Herod was, his personality or his evil murderous intentions?

Who took advantage of Herod's murderous intentions- God or Satan?
---David8318 on 1/5/12


Don't rely on my opinions. Look up the Star of Bethlehem anywhere. The predominant belief is God sent it, not Satan.

I did NOT say you believe the Magi prejudged Herod. I said exactly the opposite.

You say the Magi went to Herod because of the Star, so the Star is a tool of Satan. So you believe the Magi consulting Herod was Bad.

What SHOULD they have done? They trusted him, but you think that was Bad, so you believe they SHOULD have mistrusted him (a leader put in place by God) based on no evidence.

They DID NOT prejudge Herod, but because you think THAT was Bad, this implies you would RATHER they DID prejudge him. And if you expected that of them, do YOU similarly prejudge total strangers as well?
---StrongAxe on 1/2/12

StrongAxe- where have I said that the magi prejudged Herod as an evil man before they met him? This is your own strawman argument based on your own warped imagination and inaccurate understanding of Matthew 2.

But you are presumptuous in your arrogance. You arrogantly presume without any reference or fact to back up your claim that I 'deduce the exact opposite meaning from the text than what virtually everybody else for 2000 has inferred'- your post 12/27/11.

Who is 'everybody else' in your presumptuous view? What has been the meaning 'for 2000' years... would it be your one and only view on the matter? Only your arrogance and presumption tell you yours is the one and only view- nothing else.
---David8318 on 1/2/12

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//why do you stoop to ad-hominem attacks? In several posts, you have used terms such as "ridiculous" and "presumptuous arrogance". Please stick to facts.//

why? if someone's foundation is on shifting sand and want to remain there, what else do they have when taking scripture out of context does not work?
---aka on 1/2/12

david, again you put something on that i do not do.

going to church every sunday is a tradition/practice just like those that go to kingdom hall.

you and scott always challenge us with showing proof in the scripture, so it is only logical that i do the same. answer the question.

take your time .
---aka on 12/30/11

\\Are not all the heaven's and the earth created by God? Are you implying that somehow satan created a star for his own purpose?\\
---Mark_V. on 12/27/11

Hey, Mark. That shouldn't be too much of a stretch for JWs to believe that Satan could create a star.

After all...Jesus, an angel in their minds, created things. So why not Satan, who is also an angel?

Another example of the polytheistic pot calling the kettle black.

Crying polytheism against a "3 God" Trinity, all the while espousing polytheism

holding a view of "God" as an almighty supervisor, with little minion "gods" doing all the work.
---James_L on 12/30/11


The Magi were learned men, NOT stupid. A learned gets advice from someone he believes knows the truth. Romans 13 points out that the ruling powers are put in place by God. Wouldn't you seek advice from someone God put in a position of authority? To presume someone WRONGLY has authority is presumptious and paranoid.

You still didn't answer whether you assume all strangers are evil before you meet them, since this is what you expected the Magi to do of Herod.

The fact that Herod returned evil for good was his fault, not the Magi's.

Also, why do you stoop to ad-hominem attacks? In several posts, you have used terms such as "ridiculous" and "presumptuous arrogance". Please stick to facts.
---StrongAxe on 12/30/11

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The Scriptures say in MATTHEW 2:9, referring to the three wise men, "When they had heard the king (Herod), they departed, and, Lo, the star, which they saw in the East, WENT BEFORE THEM, TILL IT CAME AND STOOD OVER where the young Child was." The star directed them to the Child in Bethlehem. I'm suspecting that "the star" was really an angel of GOD. For it says that the star WENT BEFORE THEM and STOOD OVER where the Child was. Astral stars do not move. GOD could cause them to move. But, why do that when an angel can do it just as well and still look like a star in the sky? Angels are referred to as "stars" in the Book of REVELATION.
---Gordon on 12/30/11

Aka- what a ridiculous list you provide to compare with your yearly pagan tradition. Is that the best you can do?

They are not traditions, or even positions revered by anybody as you do the 'star of Bethlehem'.

What is more, none in that ridiculous list of yours is involved with the murder of an entire town of young boys as was that 'star of Bethlehem' you keep on defending and honouring each year. Do you get a kick out of honouring something that is associated with the death of young kids?
---David8318 on 12/29/11

StrongAxe- your presumptuous arrogance continues. Can you cite any neutral sources before 1800 that claim that the 'star' was from God?

You claim I read between the lines! Where does it say the magi believed Herod was a good king? Only your presumptuousness.

Where does it say the magi 'believed Herod knew what was going on'? Herod didn't know. The magi didn't ask Herod- Herod asked them, but only because the magi were in Jerusalem asking all and sundry, 'Where is the one born king of the Jews'? (Mt.2:2) Oblivious Herod needed his priests to figure things out- Mt.2:3.

Had the 'magi' not been in Jerusalem following the 'star' in the first place, Herod's curiosity in the matter of Jesus' birth would not have been aroused.
---David8318 on 12/29/11

David, the only thing you are exposing is your heretical views and what you have been indoctrinated with by the Jehovah Witnesses. You have a very wrong view of God, when you suggest that the Star was not of Divine origin. Simple things like that you do not even understand.
---Mark_V. on 12/30/11

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//Aka- I will continue to expose your traditions which invalidate the word of God. // the watchtower pawn

i guess you can do only what you know...putting an individual into one pot even though you do not know what i practice and what i do not.

watchtower practices and traditions are pretty uniform, so i guess it is natural for you to think you can me.

since you are exposing traditions which invalidate the word of God, can you validate Pioneers, Auxiliary Pioneers, District Overseers, Circuit Overseers, Bethelites, and Kingdom Halls using scripture? as scott always mockingly tells others, "take your time."
---aka on 12/29/11


No, I did NOT change my position from my two posts. You just read your own interpretation between the lines, just as you do with scripture.

I did NOT say Herod WAS good. I said that it was REASONABLE for others to ASSUME he was, as God put leaders in charge (Romans 13). It would have been unreasonable and paranoid for the magi to automatically assume Herod was an evil murderous tyrant without ever having met him.

Do YOU automatically assume people are evil murderers before even meeting them? If you do, you again making assumptions without evidence.

Also, since it is YOU who are proposing a heterodox view, the burden of proof is on YOU to show early sources that agree with you.
---StrongAxe on 12/29/11

Aka- I will continue to expose your traditions which invalidate the word of God. Traditions which have blinded you to the truth of God's word- in this case Matthew chapter 2.

Again you are in denial of the facts in Matthew chapter 2 which clearly show that your beloved 'star of Bethlehem' led the magi first to Jerusalem and to Herod, risking Jesus life and resulting in the death of many innocent young children.

If the revealing of the truth surrounding the unwarranted death of young children means using what you term 'ad hominem' attacks, it is worth every effort.
---David8318 on 12/29/11

StrongAxe- for sure you have completely lost the plot!

On 12/28/11 you said, 'I did NOT claim that Herod... knew what was going on.'

You did! On 12/27/11 you wrote regarding Herod, 'It was reasonable to assume that he knew what was going on.'

So you're prepared to change how Matthew 2 reads and you change your mind from one post to another.

How can you hold any credence to assume what was believed prior to 1800 when you don't know what you say from one day to the next!

How can anyone hold a reasonable discussion with you when you change your own goal posts to suit your corrupted view of Matthew chapter 2!? Your tradition not only makes 'the word of God invalid', it also invalidates everything you say!
---David8318 on 12/28/11

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Can you cite any sources before 1800 that claim that the Star of Bethlehem was an evil tool of Satan?

I did NOT claim that Herod was a good king, or that he knew what was going on. However, the Magi BELIEVED he was a good king (otherwise they would not have trusted him), and they BELIEVED he knew what was going on (otherwise they would not have asked him).
---StrongAxe on 12/28/11

StrongAxe, it is your presumptuous arrogance to assume that 'virtually everybody else' has the same viewpoint as you.

None of the first century Christian apostles speak about the so called 'star of Bethlehem' in the way you and Christendom do. Neither did they hold that 'star' in any highly significant manner as you and Christendoms churches do. If they did and if they felt that 'star' and Jesus' birth was to be revered in the way you do I'm sure they'd have told us about it!

You believe Herod knew what was going on? Have not read the account in Matthew 2? Herod didn't know what was going on, only until the magi arrived. Herod needed to gather all his chief priests to 'inquire of them where the Christ was to be born'- Mt.2:3,4.
---David8318 on 12/27/11

David, the more you say the more you get in a hole with your teachings of the text of the star. Now you say'
"His birthplace and the timing were prophesied but interestingly the 'star' was not prophesied in the Hebrew scriptures. To me this is another strong line of evidence to say the 'star' was not of divine origin."
Now you are implying that the star was not of Divine origin. Are not all the heaven's and the earth created by God? Are you implying that somehow satan created a star for his own purpose? Please, give us all a break.
---Mark_V. on 12/27/11

//i noticed over time, when a point is being argued, silly things need said if one is trying to make a point regardless of the truth. Ad hominem.// aka

markv, david decided to further his example of ad hominem attacks.

thank you, david, for greatly adding to my example.

//Aka is clearly deluded in his denial of the events recorded in Matthew 2 regarding his beloved 'star of Bethlehem'. ...// ---David8318 on 12/27/11
---aka on 12/27/11

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//\\astrologer and astronomer are not the same.\\

The two were NOT separated until about the 16-17th centuries. Did you know that?//

i am aware that people in the 21st century keep saying that. however, i do know that an astrologer and astronomer are not the same then and now just like a medicine man and a doctor. in a few decades, doctors now will be refered to as archaic medicine men/women.

also, did you ever consider that there were men who studied the planets that were not considered astrologers/astronomers just like all the biblical scholars here?
---aka on 12/27/11

Some writers are of the opinion that the Magi saw the star the first time at the Annunciation.

Others have suggested that this was not an astronomical star, but a vision given to Magi alone. And yet others have said it was an angel--which has the same effect. Only the Magi saw it.

\\astrologer and astronomer are not the same.\\

The two were NOT separated until about the 16-17th centuries. Did you know that?

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/27/11


The Magi went to Herod because he was the lawful leader of the land (divine right of Kings: Romans 13:1-7). It was reasonable to assume that he knew what was going on, and not to initially assume that he was evil. Do you initially judge everyone you first meet as evil until proven otherwise?

Your whole theory is totally reading between the lines to deduce the exact opposite meaning from the text than what virtually everybody else for 2000 has inferred. Were all the Christians in the world before stupid?
---StrongAxe on 12/27/11

JW - David...would either of you care to answer this.
Isaiah 44:6..Jehovah says He is the first and last(He is eternal) and beside Him there is no God.
Jesus says in Rev.22:13 that He is the first and the last( He is eternal). If He is eternal then He is God. Only God is eternal. Which means Jesus and Jehovah are one.
---JIM on 12/27/11

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Aka is clearly deluded in his denial of the events recorded in Matthew 2 regarding his beloved 'star of Bethlehem'. Old 'xmas' traditions are hard to let go, even when the truth is pointed out. Aka prefers his traditions over acceptance of the truth.

As Jesus said to the Pharisees, their tradition had 'made the word of God invalid'- Mt.15:6. That's precisely what aka has done. Aka refuses to examine the truth, preferring his 'xmas' traditions- maybe for fear of upsetting his religious paramours. Sacrificing truth on the altar of false religious tradition is nothing new- even for aka.

But at the same time, through his traditions aka 'makes the word of God invalid'. Traditions are worth more to aka- he doesn't need Bible truth.
---David8318 on 12/27/11

//its clear you completely ignore the sequence of events// David

if you read the scriptures as it is and not how the watchtower tells you, you will see. however, i know that you are limited.

//I don't know why he would say to go ahead and honor the star.// MarkV

i noticed over time, when a point is being argued, silly things need said if one is trying to make a point regardless of the truth. Ad hominem.

JW - At least David is earning points towards his grace as the watchtower mandates. he is spending time "evangelizing". what kind of God would not want others to have the truth no matter what the cost?
---aka on 12/26/11


The fact that the Star may have lead to an unfortunate series of events was NOT because the Star was evil, but because Herod was evil.

The fall was Adam's fault, not Eve's. Uriah's death was David's fault, not Bathsheba's. Saul's inappropriately offering sacrifice was Saul's fault, not Nathan's.

What is the common element in all of these? Someone making a wilful moral (or, more precisely immoral) choice.

You may choose to infer that the Star was Satan's plot, but if you do so, you are totally reading between the lines, because there is absolutely NO indication in scripture whatsoever that this was the case.
---StrongAxe on 12/26/11

StrongAxe, yes you're right the Bible doesn't say Satan used the 'magi' to warn Herod of Jesus' birth. But also remember- neither does it say God directed them to Herod.

What it does say is that the 'magi' were given divine warning not to return to Herod- Mt.2:12. So I am confident that God did not direct the 'magi' to Herod in the first place. It is reasonable to conclude that God did not want Herod's involvement whatsoever. The question thus is, who directed them to Herod in the first instance?

To me it is clear God did not direct the magi to Herod before or after their visit to Jesus. The 'star' was not of divine origin because God would not encourage an activity (astrology) already condemned in the Bible- Deut.7:2-5.
---David8318 on 12/26/11

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Paul, going on from what MarkV posted to aka, an interesting point is made regarding various prophecies pertaining to Jesus' birth.

His birthplace and the timing were prophesied but interestingly the 'star' was not prophesied in the Hebrew scriptures. To me this is another strong line of evidence to say the 'star' was not of divine origin.

However, what was prophesied as spoken through Jeremiah 31:15 (applied at Matthew 2:17,18) was the tragic result of what the 'star' accomplished. God did not prophesy the star would occur so it is reasonable to conclude neither did God use it to direct the magi first to Herod putting both Jesus' life and the lives of other children at risk.
---David8318 on 12/26/11

AKA, you got that right. Cults will always try to form some kind of story to fit their teachings against Christianity. David is no different then the rest of the cults. I don't know why he would say to go ahead and honor the star. He is so spiritually blinded that all he sees is what is taught to him from the Jehovah Witnesses against Christianity. The magi were not out to kill Jesus, all Hebrew scholars cleary expect Bethlehem to be the birthplace of the Messiah (Mica 5:2). They might have been used by Herod, but their aim was not to hurt Him but to worship Him (v.2:2). Herod's attempt to kill Jesus had already been written, If Jesus was going to be Ruler how could He be killed? All of this was ordain by God and spoken of in the Old Testament.
---Mark_V. on 12/26/11

Aka, its clear you completely ignore the sequence of events that led up to the attempt on Jesus' life and the resultng death of boys under 2, all because of the so called 'star of Bethlehem' as termed by Christendom.

It is very telling that you gnore the clear scriptural fact that the 'star' led the 'magi' not dirctly to Jesus, but first to Herod. Do you deny this? Is the 'star' so precious to you that you blank out this awkward truth? Not wanting to upset your theological masters? Of course you would be going against your church if you began speaking out against the 'star of Bethlehem'.

Whether I am a pawn of the Watchtower or not is irrelevant. The facts pertaining to the 'star' and the terrible results are for all to see.
---David8318 on 12/23/11

David 83:18
Why waste your time with this?
Jehovah will reveal himself to those who are earnestly searching for Him.
Their eyes are veiled!
Don't waste your time!
Your CB.
---JW on 12/24/11

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You can infer that the Magi were a tool of Satan used to warn Herod of Jesus's birth. However, the Bible does not in any way say this. Also, a dream warned them NOT to return via Herod, and that dream surely didn't come from Satan, since it thwarted the very purpose you mention. in fact, the sale of their gifts (which were very expensive) likely financed the flight to Egypt - something that would otherwise have been very difficult for an unemployed carpenter (i.e. have you ever tried cabinetmaking on horseback?), with a wife and baby in tow.
---StrongAxe on 12/24/11

//So aka- you keep on honouring that 'star' each year- the real kicker is realising the part the 'star' played in the death of all those young boys. // ---David8318 on 12/23/11

i don't honor the star. i just read the text in context. the order that scripture used is not supported by your misinterpretation.

your presuppositions and the contextual misuses of the star that you follow will also eventually lead to death. you do not realize (and someday i hope you realize) that you are a pawn of the watchtower organization.
---aka on 12/23/11

Aka, you fail to realise the 'magi' were pawns used by Satan.

Why did the 'star' lead the 'magi' to Herod? It's not rocket science aka. The 'magi' were used unsuspectingly as a means for Satan to direct Herod to Jesus.

It wasn't the 'magi' who ordered the death of boys under 2. Realising he'd been outwitted, Herod (no doubt under the influence of Satan) ordered the death of those young boys.

So aka- you keep on honouring that 'star' each year- the real kicker is realising the part the 'star' played in the death of all those young boys.
---David8318 on 12/23/11

Mat 2:10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy.

[obviously so now they can kill him]

Mat 2:11 And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh.

[well, i thought they came to obey the leader of the star and kill him???]

Mat 2:12 And being warned in a dream not to return to Herod, they departed to their own country by another way.

[so, their intent was to kill him, but instead they fell down, worshiped him, and gave him valuable gifts. the kicker is that they spared him BEFORE the angelic intervention.]
---aka on 12/22/11

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Some ask 'why would Satan lead people to Jesus'. As if assuming Satan wanted all he led to Jesus to become Christians... right? Wrong!

Satan used the sign or 'star' to lead his people to Jesus, thus putting Jesus' life in great danger. The 'magi' didn't go straight to Jesus as quaintly depicted in Christendoms nativity scenes. The 'magi' were sent first to Herod- Mt.2:1,2.

Satan didn't lead people to Jesus in the months after his birth in the sense of hoping they'd all somehow convert to Christianity. Satan led his people to Jesus in an effort to have Jesus killed.

Thankfully, angelic intervention thwarted Satan's efforts to kill Jesus in what perhaps was Jesus' most vulnerable time- Mt.2:12.
---David8318 on 12/22/11

eloy ,Your view of scrip about child was blown away by DAVID8318 2CORITH..4:3-4 is in your case. ps I FOR SURE, SHAKE THE DUST OFF MY FEET AND LEAVE...ROM 10:2
---bc on 12/22/11

NonChristians whom know not the scriptures twist the scriptures into falsehood. If these unlearned people would get saved and study the scriptures, then they would know that the english translation "child" or even "man child" in the scriptures many times means an infant or a baby, and it does not in any ways mean a "child in years", nor a "man in many years". As in these scriptures of the first woman giving birth, and of Mary giving birth: "And Adam lay with Animate his wife, which conceived and bore Cain, and said, I have gotten a man of Yhwh...Before she travailed she brought forth: before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child." Gn.4:1+ Is.66:7.
---Eloy on 12/22/11

astrologer and astronomer are not the same.
---aka on 12/21/11

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When the 'magi' arrived, Jesus was approaching 2yrs old. The 'magi' did not arrive the night Jesus was born. There are clear scriptural reasons for this.

Immediately after the visit from the 'magi', Joseph was instructed to flee with Jesus to Egypt to avoid the murderous intentions of Herod- Mt.2:13. So this could not have been the night of Jesus' birth. Why not? Because under the Law, Jesus needed to be circumcised when 8 days old, and Mary needed to travel to Jerusalem for her purification offering which needed to be done 40 days after birthing a son- Luke.2:21-38, Lev.12:1-8.

Jesus was 'a child' back in Bethlehem, in a house by the time the 'magi' arrived. On fleeing to Egypt, Herod wanted all boys under 2 killed.
---David8318 on 12/21/11

Astronomers study the heavens for scientific reasons, movement of the planets etc.
Astrologers present the daily horoscope ,predicting your future!Depending under which of the 12 signs you were born!
---1st_cliff on 12/21/11

In Part 246 of my "Christians Are Ignorant" series....

It was NOT at the manger, rather Jesus was around 18-months old at the time and it occured at Mary's "HOUSE" (likely a relatives house).
---John on 12/21/11

The magi followed the star to where baby Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea. lit.Gk: "And she birthed the son of her, the first-born, and quilt-strapped him, and laid him in a feed rack, because there was no room for them in the quarters. And lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the infant was." Lk.2:7+ Mt.2:9.
---Eloy on 12/21/11

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2000 years ago, anyone who studied the stars was called an astrologer, whether he studied them scientifically, or mystically, or both. The word "astronomer" is of much more recent origin.
---StrongAxe on 12/21/11

astrologer and astronomer are not the same.
---aka on 12/21/11

"According to Matthew 2, "The star came and stood over where the young Child was.""
Where did the star led them first? They knew where to go after reading the Scripture.
Re-read Matt 2:1-5
---Elder on 12/21/11

From the Orthodox Christmas service:

Your Nativity, O Christ our God,
Has shone upon the world the light of wisdom,
For at it those who worshipped the stars
Were taught by a star to worship You,
The Sun of Righteousness,
And to know you, the Dayspring from on high.
O Lord, glory to You!
---Cluny on 12/20/11

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According to Matthew 2, "The star came and stood over where the young Child was."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/19/11

The 'wise men' were 'magi' or 'astrologers'- a practice condemned in the Scriptures (Deut.18:10-12). Who said there were 'three' Kings?

Only the 'astrologers' were reported to have seen the 'star'. If the star had been real it would have been visible, but even Herod had to ask details of its appearance.

This star guided the astrologers first to Jerusalem, to Herod who wanted to kill Jesus. Then the star shifted direction and led the astrologers south to Bethlehem to Jesus, thus placing Jesus life in danger.

Satan is described as using 'lying signs and portents'- 2 Thess.2:19. Only Satan could make astrologers see a starlike object and could jockey that 'star' to lead them to Gods Son, whom he wanted to destroy.
---David8318 on 12/19/11

Paul, bible doesn't say there were three,a popular assumption. There could have been 3 or 12 (or 10 if they were metric).
They were Astrologers a practice forbidden by God!
in which case one would have to question whether God sent the so called "star"!
Any star that close to earth's atmosphere would not "hover".
---1st_cliff on 12/19/11

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