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God Before The World

What was God doing before He created our world?

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 ---lee1538 on 12/19/11
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Warwick: On the subject of infallibility, the Bible claims itself (Old Testament) to be the gold standard by which the opinions of men are to be tested:

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Jesus, as well as the Apostles, affirmed the veracity of the OT. How strange that alleged Bible-believing Christians would say that the OT is filled with lies, or is superceded by the NT, while getting their "truth" from early church fathers, Bible commentators, and modern academia!


---jerry6593 on 12/31/11


Kathr//What is actually FUNNY here is there was no such thing as a DAY before God created and made a DAY for man.

Yes, the scripture states that God spoke the world into existence and that in 6 time periods. He did not have to look at His watch between events as Warwick would maintain.

It is too bad that some are so naive that they cannot conceive that there are other views that have merit. They in their stupidity are quick to accuse those who disagree with their views as being heretical. All too often that is the problem with the legalists.
---lee1538 on 12/30/11


kathr4453:

Any mariners who travelled long distances east and west would notice time zone changes. Archimedes (more than 2000 years ago) knew the earth was round - he tried to measure the diameter of the earth by comparing a solar eclipse seen simultaneously in Egypt and Greece. The idea that people thought the earth was flat until very recently just isn't true.
---StrongAxe on 12/30/11


\\Can you show me where Jesus the Truth, ever said Scripture as written was incorrect? \\

How about this one:

"You have heard it said, 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth," BUT **I** SAY UNTO YOU..."

Will this do for starters?

And can you show me where Jesus ever gave a list of books that were supposed to be in the Bible, or even NT?

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/31/11


What is actually FUNNY here is there was no such thing as a DAY before God created and made a DAY for man.

God did not live by DAYS and still does not live by DAYS.

That's why the Bible says to God a day is like a thousand years and a thousand yeas like a day. It doesn't say a day IS a Thousand years. Just God's way of saying....I'm not on man's time clock!
---kathr4453 on 12/30/11




Cluny, "For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow, it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." Hebrews 4:12. Yes God's word.

Are men infallible? No. Is God infallible? Yes. Whose word is it?

Can you show me where Jesus the Truth, ever said Scripture as written was incorrect?

How about we glorify Christ by trusting Him absolutely? Novel idea?
---Warwick on 12/29/11


Also, regardless of HOW Isaiah knew the earth is round, that notion agrees with obsevable facts. ---StrongAxe on 12/29/11

You still fail to give a good argument. WHAT observable facts did Isaiah have when in the 1300 and earlier man thought the earth was flat. Therefore Isaiah was not writing according to any FACTS he had.

All Prophecy written as well has/had NO observable facts. JUST GOD'S WORD!

THAT is why we live by FAITH and not by SIGHT!
---kathr4453 on 12/29/11


StrongAxe "He stretches out the north over the void and hangs the earth on nothing" Job 26:7.

By this Scripture God demonstrates His power, to be able to suspend such a massive world, in space, resting on nothing visible. It took sientists, before whom you bow, thousands of years to discover gravity and that this invisible thing holds the whole universe in motion.

You fight against the days of creation being c24hr days not because of what Scripture says but contrary to what Scripture says. You are unable to give one Scripture to support your belief because it in not Biblical. Your belief undermines the gospel as it places death before sin while Scripture says death came only after sin.
---Warwick on 12/29/11


//Joshua did not ruin the day at all. The sun wouldn't have stood still if God hadn't made it do so in the first place for his sake.

What this story brings to mind is the story behind the Fatima event of 1917 in which tens of thousand of people saw the sun dance around the sky.

Could a similar delusion have happened during Joshua time?

There could be a problem here in what exactly happened and what appeared to happen.

In any case, what was God doing prior to earth'ss creation if not creating other worlds? Since angels existed prior to earth's creation, then we can say He was creating these beings.
---lee1538 on 12/29/11


After reading all this, my conclusions are not worth anything.

Would God need millions of years?
Why would the Lord say 24 hours?
More importantly, why would God say Six Days?
And not say it took, a second!

It seems to me, its only because you refuse to believe it.
Moreover, what has God been asking you for all your lives?
Is it not, that you believe me, God that is, above your own reasoning?
Didnt Christ say, believe Im words!

I use to believe in six time periods, frankly it was easier!
Until Warwick said Six Days! You think he was the first?
Can Warwick make me believe anything?
Was it Warwick or God?

Its not ease to believe Six Days! Is it?
Peace
---TheSeg on 12/29/11




Mark, you wrote "All the facts are right in front of you, the exact words are clear," I agree, Genesis is right in front of us and the words are clear. God says He created in 6 24hr days as confirmed by Exodus 20:11 where God commands the Israelites to work six days and rest the seventh. Why "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

What is unclear about that?
---Warwick on 12/29/11


StrongAxe, one of the points you and others like you miss is that the first ever day was a day only on earth, contained in a text written for man, not for God. One day is a measure of time but God does not dwell in time, being eternal. Eternity is not a measure of time but an absence of time. Time was created for man therefore to talk of the length of God's days is nonsense.

Untill you understand or accept this you will never understand these matters.

I trust you understood my point about rainfall, how what the Bible says, and what we say today is from our perspective, not God's. Just as "And there was evening, and there was morning-the first day." The first ever earth day!
---Warwick on 12/29/11


How very Christian of you to stereotype me, MarkV. You just proved to me that you really havent read much of what I have posted over the past year.

The only place you and I have ever disagreed is I do not believe in Limited Atonement or Irresistable Grace. Scripture has many many verses denying both and they have been posted by more than just me. Your response was always the same: changing the meanings of the words to fit your extremist Calvinists views.

My advice to you is to put down the extra-Biblical literature written by men and get back to letting the Holy Spirit teach you what scripture means.

The Bereans didnt run to their "pastor" to see what he says. They searched for themselves.
---CraigA on 12/29/11


MarkV, are you sure you arent scared to question what you have been taught?

I fear the same scare tactics and judgmental attitude you have towards those who disagree with you are the same ones that were used to keep you in your current beliefs.

God says he has NO pleasure in the death of the wicked and would rather men turn from their sin and live! He also has to power to change them if they call upon his name. But yet you claim He withholds the very thing He says He delights in?

Test the spirits, Mark. The Holy Spirit/Father/Son commands us to.

If scripture says one thing and the "holy spirit" tells you another, then guess what?
---CraigA on 12/29/11


kathr4453:

Joshua did not ruin the day at all. The sun wouldn't have stood still if God hadn't made it do so in the first place for his sake.

Now, the fact that his happened happens to ruin Warwick's pet theory of how long days are, but not God's idea of how long a day is (whatever definition that happens to be).

Also, regardless of HOW Isaiah knew the earth is round, that notion agrees with obsevable facts. When something written down does NOT agree with observable facts, one of several conclusions must be drawn:
1) Our senses are totally deluded
2) We interpret what we observe wrong
3) The Bible is wrong
4) It is right, but we are reading between the lines wrong.
It is usually 2 or 4 that cause confusion.
---StrongAxe on 12/29/11


You mean teh 1st day means something to a believer and something totaly different to an unbeliever? Somehow God sends a revelation that means something other than what is clearlt stated?

Anyone saved or unsaved reading Genesis 1 would NEVER come to any conclusion that a day meant anything other than a day...24 hours.
It's only been since DARWIN who caused so called christians to rethink the Bible who are called MODERNISTS who are totally WITHOUT the leading of the Holy Spirit, leaning rather on man's understanding.

Christ born of a virgin also does NOT take on another meaning...

Jesus dying for the sin of man has never changed meanoings either.
---kathr4453 on 12/29/11


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Warwick, you are missing the point. All believers read the Bible just as all unbelievers do. All the facts are right in front of you, the exact words are clear, the culture means something, the time means something, but what is missing from the unbelievers is the spiritual truth. They cannot discern the spiritual Truth of God's Word, only those who are born of the Spirit can. The two, unbelievers and believers read the same thing, one gets the revelation and the other doesn't. That is what I see from 1Cliff, athiest, mormons and Jehovah witnesses. They read just like all those not born of the Spirit. No spiritual understanding. God purpose is to convey a message to us. We might read and not understand the message now, but we will later.
---Mark_V. on 12/29/11


\\StrongAxe, the Bible is God's word written through selected humans.\\

God's Word--or God's words? There's a differencde.

\\ Do you imagane God knows less than falible human scientists\\

Do you think that the writers of the Bible were infallible totally?

One thing the Bible makes painfully clear is that mere mortals have never done ANYTHING for God and gotten it 100% infallibly right.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/28/11


why would God mention the sun standing still if it ALWAYS stands still anyway? There would have been no point.
---StrongAxe on 12/28/11

Exactly strongaxe. God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. God CANNOT LIE, regardless of man's ignorance. God was not and has never been dependent on man's ignorance. Revelation has many things men TODAY still don't grasp. Will a woman literally be seen in the sky with 12 stars, the moon under her feet clothed in the sun?

NO again this is symbolic of Israel.

You also make God completely dependent on Joshua running the show. Totally opposite of anything Joshua teaches. God went before always and God was the victor, not Joshua or man.
---kathr4453 on 12/28/11


Strongaxe, we also see in Isaiah that the earth is round not flat. HOW did Isaiah know that? EXPERT scientists??? OR did God speak TRUTH through him ABOVE HIS OWN UNDERSTANDING? If God spoke truth through Isaiah, long before the intelligence of man knew the earth was round ...then your whole argument is for NIL.

In Jewish language many times Hyperbole is used to make a point.
---kathr4453 on 12/28/11


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The dance of BiblioSkeptics, filled with Pathos. I like that. It has a poetic ring to it.
---John.usa on 12/28/11


Mark God's word is both physical historical reality and spiritual, which is not unreasonable considering God is spirit.

Howeever if you try to make it purely spiritual you miss the point. The physical historical reality is that Adam sinned bringing the curse including death into the world. As Scripture says-the wages of sin is death. Jesus came in real-time to die physically upon the cross, and rise again. As 2 John 1:7 says deceivers say Jesus did not come in the flesh and 1 Corinthians 15:14 says preaching and faith is useless unless Jesus rose again, and this in the flesh.

'Day' has many meanings, and I have often pointed out that when accompanied by a number it means 24hrs, as you agree. This is what Exodus 20:11 says.
---Warwick on 12/28/11


Creating heaven.
---Eloy on 12/28/11


Craig, you said,
"Seems even Christ believes in free will. If He does and you dont....makes you wonder if your message is coming from HIS Spirit."
Christ never spoke of free will. He said, they were not willing. The lost are never willing, I told you already that only God can make them willing. Only His sheep hear His voice. He speaks to unbelievers in parables so they do not understand His words. Second, nothing makes me wonder If what I say is from the Holy Spirit, since what I have written down comes from the Word of God, inspired by the Spirit. Third, Men like you would strip Deity of His Omniscience and Omnipotence if you could, which only proves "the carnal mind is enmity against God" (Rom. 8:7).
---Mark_V. on 12/29/11


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StrongAxe I am surprized and disappointed in your replies. We have seen the pathetic dance BiblioSceptics do avoiding what Scripture says. Now you have joined in. Joshua's long day which occurred only because of God's intervention does not change the fact that 'one day' in every language I have researched is 24hrs. Joshua's day no more changes this than Jesus' miraculous intervention with fish and bread changes where bread and fish come from.

As the "first day" was described in Genesis 1:3-5 so it is still today. It is light and dark, evening and morning. At least where I live it is!

I am sure you read my quote by the BiblioSceptic Professor Barr who insists the language of Genesis was written to mean 24hr days.
---Warwick on 12/28/11


StrongAxe, the Bible is God's word written through selected humans. Do you imagane God knows less than falible human scientists?

Today we (including scientists) speak of sunrise, because it does. Are scientists also wrong?

Scripture was written for man, in our terms, from our frame of reference.

We talk of 'rainfall' but if viewing earth from space (North Pole on top, the accepted way) rain in the Southern Hemisphere, scientifically speaking, should be called 'rain rise' shouldn't it?

But then scientifically speaking neither North or South Poles are up are they? Better to stick with descriptions from human perspective, don't you think!
---Warwick on 12/28/11


the bible does not tell us what God was doing but can you imagine...God in heaven with the angels and they are content and happy then all of a sudden, the angel of light decided he wanted to be god so he rebelled. That did set of a chain reaction of events that led up to Christ being born of a virgin and died on a cross to defeat satan. Satan thought he was dead, praise God the tomb is empty.
---shira4368 on 12/28/11


Christians who argue against what Genesis says (e.g. day-length, or world-wide flood) do so from a nonBiblical perspective, admitting their scepticism comes from 'scientific' belief. Those same scientists whom the sceptics accept as experts reject that man can rise from the dead. Strangely the Christian sceptics ignore their own experts insisting Jesus did rise from the dead! Hypocrisy?

Relevantly Galileo's battle with the RC church occurred because the church had accepted incorrect but ruling beliefs of scientists of the day. When new evidence contradicted old 'scientific' beliefs the church was in trouble. When long-ages and evolution are finally rejected as scientific fact where will that leave such Christian sceptics?
---Warwick on 12/28/11


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kathr4453:

The Bible was written from the point of view of shepherds thousands of years ago, not scientists of today. Today, we know that the earth revolves around the sun. However, the sun APPEARS to go around the earth, and this is how the ancients viewed it.

If the Bible had been written from a scientist's point of view, most of the people it had been written to would not have understood it. In particular, the verse in Joshua would not make sense, because why would God mention the sun standing still if it ALWAYS stands still anyway? There would have been no point.
---StrongAxe on 12/28/11


//Seems even Christ believes in free will. If He does and you dont....makes you wonder if your message is coming from HIS Spirit.

Kathryn (and others) really doesn't like the Scriptural view that God is sovereign that He can do whatever He wishes and to whomever He chooses with His creation.

When a person becomes a Christian, that persons life becomes the property of God. You were purchased by the blood of Christ. (1 Cor. 6:20, 7:23).

There are some, however, seem to regret giving their lives to Christ and want to re- negotiate with God hoping for a better trade.

He is the Potter, you are the clay and some vessels are molded for great honor, others for daily use. Romans 9
---lee1538 on 12/28/11


MarkV,
Maybe you could use a lesson from Jesus Christ (who IS God).

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Seems even Christ believes in free will. If He does and you dont....makes you wonder if your message is coming from HIS Spirit.
---CraigA on 12/28/11


AMEN CraigA
---kathr4453 on 12/28/11


As far as execptions and rules: If you have any ABSOLUTE rule, and you find even ONE exception, then the rule is invalid.
---StrongAxe on 12/26/11


Strongaxe, do you know that verse in Joshua that says says the sun stood still? Do you know the sun always stands still. The Sun does not reviolve aroung the earth but vice versa. LITERALLY the universe would have to stand still, along with the other orbiting planets.

So, did God LIE or are we taking that verse out of context?

In Judges 4-5 ..Were the STARS really in their course LITERALLY? or does stars here mean Israel?
---kathr4453 on 12/27/11


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John, the Bible which you find "profitable" says all have sinned and are destined for eternal damnation unless they accept Jesus free pardon. This is the central theme of Scripture. Jesus came for this reason.

If you treat Scripture as a philosophical exercise as opposed to Truth, a real living life-line, there is no eternal profit for you. If you do this you miss the point, and miss salvation.
---Warwick on 12/27/11


Warwick:

You said: in Genesis 1:3-5 24hr day is defined. It is a day just the same as every day you have ever lived.

No, it does not. There is NOTHING in Genesis 1:3-5 that DEFINES the a day's length.

If a day is "24 hours", this fails on Joshua's Long Day.

If a day is "period of alternating light and darkness", every solar eclipse has two 12-hour "days".

If a day is "period of rotation of the earth around the sun", this is meaningless before days 3-4, when earth and sun were created.

The plain fact is, that NONE of these definitions can simultaneously and adequately define every day from the first creation day until present.
---StrongAxe on 12/27/11


--You are but a grasshopper. And grasshoppers have no power over God. Your theology stinks. You need lessons from Luther, Calvin, John Wycliffe, William Tyndale, John Knox, Johannes Hus, Martin Bucer many more.-- MarkV

Maybe you could use a lesson from Jesus Christ (who IS God).

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Seems even Christ believes in free will. If He does and you dont....makes you wonder if your message is coming from HIS Spirit.
---CraigA on 12/28/11


You know, Jesus once said something along these lines.
Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
And the rest! He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Maybe you dont think, God suffers!
2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Peace
---TheSeg on 12/28/11


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Lee, even a child knows what a 24hr day is. They know there is daylight then there is nighttime and then there is a new day-"God called the light day and the darkness He called night. "A child in the Middle East knows a new 24hr day begins at evening which is followed by morning which leads to evening, the next day."And there was evening and there was morning-the first day.

So tell me Lee, what period of time is made up of a period of light followed by a period of dark?

Also please quote any Scripture which supports your exotic view of day length.

Remember you have admitted Exodus 20:11 says God created in 6 24hr days!

Better to be a living ass than a dead king, to paraphrase Scripture.
---Warwick on 12/27/11


StrongAxe, in Genesis 1:3-5 24hr day is defined. It is a day just the same as every day you have ever lived. That Joshua's long day is a miraculous exception to the rule is evident by the fact that we are told about in detail. It is an obvious miraculous exception to the rule and for this reason does not contradict the rule.

Jesus created food for the 5,000. Does this miracle disprove the rule that fish come from lakes/oceans and bread from the ground? No.

We know the 6 creation days are ordinary 24 hr days because of Exodus 20:11, as well. Even Lee the Sceptic accepts these are 24hr days. Those who refuse to accept what Scripture says do so for nonBiblical reasons.
---Warwick on 12/27/11


Warwick // I am pleased that He has shown me all His word is absolute Truth.

yes, If the Lord has shown you His Son, the Truth, then you can indeed be pleased for that is your salvation.

However, as for the Word of God, it is your interpretation that is questionable. You fail to realize that even the Apostles had differing viewpoints.

Peter for instance, had a lapse from grace when he was rebuked by Paul in Antioch.

Sorry, but anyone that can read should be able to see that there is NOTHING in the Genesis Creation account that mentions a 24 hour day. What you believe, is known as an ASSUMPTION.

I would strongly suggest you be quiet for awhile and think about it instead of continuing to make an ass of yourself.
---lee1538 on 12/27/11


Warwick, I'm answering you as I did before. You said,
""If I said I am going away for 6 days would you wonder how long these days are?" Do you know I have asked this fair question many times and never received an answer because the conclusion is obvious"
I for one would think you were talking about days as 24 hr periods. But you are not God speaking. The Word of God has to be understood spiritually. Your word doesn't. The word day has many meanings in the Word of God. You seem to avoid all of them and stick to one, even though day has many meanings.
---Mark_V. on 12/27/11


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Warwick:

You say Joshua's day was a miracle. Now, you have a choice: Were the first 6 creation days miracles, or not?

If they were miracles (as Joshua's day was), then they were capable of the same "natural-law-bending" phenomena as Joshua's Day was.

If they were NOT miracles, then they unfolded according to natural law. When was the last time you saw a normal 24 hour day in which entire species evolved from nothing without divine help? I don't recall seeing any myself.

As far as execptions and rules: If you have any ABSOLUTE rule, and you find even ONE exception, then the rule is invalid.
---StrongAxe on 12/26/11


Lee, belief in our Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ is a minority view. Among 'Christians' faith in the whole word of God is a minority view. I am pleased that He has shown me all His word is absolute Truth. What you meant as an insult is in fact a compliment. Thank you for your Christmas gift!

In the real world Joshua's long day does not contradict the rule that 'day' with a number means 24hrs. We are told about Joshua's day as it was a miracle of God.

1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in the Adam all die,..." Hebrews 11:5 "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death,..."

Once again we have a miraculous exception which does not disprove the rule that "all die."
---Warwick on 12/26/11


Warwick, I already told you, the Bible does not have to be inerrant to be profitable. If you want to believe it's inerrant too, well, I don't mind. Let's leave it at that, okay? :)
---John.usa on 12/27/11


StrongAxe, Joshua's day is covered in detail because it was a miracle. Otherwise We wouldn't be talking about it.

It is not reasonable to consider this one day out of the millions of days since creation, disproves the rule. I used the rule in asking "If I said I am going away for 6 days would you wonder how long these days are?" Do you know I have asked this fair question many times and never received an answer because the conclusion is obvious.

To say that Genesis 1 does not define a 24hr day and that the 6 creation days were not of the same length is ridiculous. It only shows the lengths some will go to avoid the obvious.

How old it the earth and the universe?
---Warwick on 12/23/11


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John, why bother reading the Bible? If it isn't God's revealed truth what tangible value is it?

2 Peter 1:21 "For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

2 Samuel 23:2 "The Spirit of the LORD spoke through me, his word was on my tongue."

Jeremiah 23:26 "How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds?"

Acts 1:16 "Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David..."

See also Ezekiel 1:3, Micah 1:1, Luke 1:70,Acts 3:18, 2 Timothy 3:16, etc. God's words, not man's.
---Warwick on 12/23/11


Where in Genesis 1 does it say the periods of creation were 24 hours?
---lee1538 on 12/21/11


Genesis 1

v5 evening and morning first day

v8 evening and morning second day

v13 evening and morning third day

v14 lights...to divide the day from the night...signs...for seasons, days, years

v19 evening and morning fourth day

v23 evening and morning fifth day

v31 evening and morning sixth day

2:2 and on the seventh day God ended His work...and He rested.


I am no scientist, but doesn't the speed of the earth's rotation dictate the length of a day?

Considering the "day" was correlated directly to morning and evening, the burden of proof would be yours, Lee
---James_L on 12/23/11


Jos_10:14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.

Invalidate the 24 hour days?
If anything, I believe just the opposite, it validates it.
There was no day like that before it or after it.
This day was different than the rest of them.

Isa_43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Does this one do the same for God?
Ill step out now, sorry guys.
Well, that my two cents.
Peace
---TheSeg on 12/24/11


Warwick, the word "day" in Scripture is not always '24' hours. The word is "yom" and it has several meanings depending where it is found. It could mean in the daytime, A point in time, and a sphere of time are both expressed by "yom," It is the period of light which is not darkness. It can be a period of 24 hrs, time in general, a specific point in time or a year. When used in construction with other Hebrew parts of speech, it can mean, "on some particular day." There's more space does not permit. So it does not always mean the same thing. It depends where the word "day" is found with the context. In many cases we have to compare with other passages which speak of the same context.
---Mark_V. on 12/25/11


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Warwick //the existence of that one exception renders the premise that "ALL days are 24 hours" invalid, which renders the conclusion that "ALL creation days were necessarily 24 hours because ALL days are 24 hours" also invalid.

Since the minority position you hold is the least defensible, you would do well for yourself to simply toss in the towel and go onto some other topic
---lee1538 on 12/25/11


Warwick:

There was no day like it before, nor since.

Nevertheless, the existence of that one exception renders the premise that "ALL days are 24 hours" invalid, which renders the conclusion that "ALL creation days were necessarily 24 hours because ALL days are 24 hours" also invalid.

And, no, if you went away for 6 days, I WOULD assume those are normal 24-hour days. Why? Because we can see the sun in the sky to meausure the day lengths (which was NOT POSSIBLE during the first few creation days).

Note that I did not say "the first creation days were not 24 hours". I said "the Bible does not say how long they were".
---StrongAxe on 12/23/11


If there is one thing we know for certain that Elohim was doing before our world was created, it was WORKING.

God is always working. Just look around. He is working in you, He is working in the world, He is working in the universe.

To think that He created the world and stood back and just let everything happen as it might, is ignorant of Scripture.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/23/11


Yes, I agree the Bible is profitable, and that Jesus is truth. Those things can easily be verified. But one cannot verify the whole Bible is inerrant. And Jesus did not write the Bible, other humans did. I love the Bible and read it every day. It is immensely helpful to me despite its flaws. :)
---John.usa on 12/23/11


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StrongAxe not withstanding Joshua's long day when was the last time one day was not c24hrs?

If I said I am going away for 6 days would you wonder how long these days are?

Do a reality check.
---Warwick on 12/23/11


Warwick:

If you believe that the word "day" ALWAYS means 24 hours, how do you explain the day the sun stood still over Gibeon, that was about twice as long as a "normal" day?
---StrongAxe on 12/22/11


John, Scripture tells us Jesus is the Creator of everything ever created, the Word of God, in a unique position to know the absolute truth. In fact He calls himself the truth John 14:6.

Jesus quoted from all the books of the OT never once hinting they are anything less than absolute truth.

"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousnes" 2 Timothy 3:16.

If you wish to make a case for your belief it is up to you to demonstrate it by Scripture.

I am pleased the Bible isn't a scientific document as science is a construct of falible man and constantly changes as new evidence contradicts old evidence.
---Warwick on 12/22/11


The Bible itself does not claim that everything in it is factually and scientifically correct, nor does it claim that it contains everything necessary to know for one's spiritual well-being. People who believe such things about the Bible believe man-made doctrines. But that's okay. People may to contrive any doctrine they wish. It's a free country. :)
---John.usa on 12/22/11


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StrongAxe, another relevant point is that Professor Barr is an expert in Hebrew and has made it clear that whoever wrote Genesis ch. 1 meant readers to to understand the 6 creation days were each of 24hrs.

How revealing it is that some people, who insist they are Christian, will not believe what the Bible says.
---Warwick on 12/22/11


StrongAxe, in a court trial the best witness is a hostile witness.

Barr is an acknowledged expert in Biblical Hebrew, then holding the top position in the understanding of Hebrew at a first tier university. I do not quote him (and have made that clear) for his faith in God but for his expert understanding of what Biblical Hebrew means. And he says whoever wrote it meant us to take the days of creation to be 24hrs!

He is not pushing any wheelbarrow, a belief, but reveals what the Hebrew means.

Could he not translate any ancient Hebrew epic into English accurately whether he believes it historical or not?

BTW Wang, McCabe and Kelly believe Genesis to be an historical account, with God creating in 6-24hr days.
---Warwick on 12/21/11


Warwick:

It is very revealing that the very James Barr to whom you refer in support of your views, while he believes that the author of Genesis meant literal 24 hour days, he does not, himself, believe Genesis is true.

So if you use him as a reference to support your position, you are cherry-picking his beliefs - accepting those that suit you (i.e. days are 24 hours), but rejecting ones that don't (i.e. that Genesis is not true). How can you trust the opinions of someone whom you yourself believe is half wrong?
---StrongAxe on 12/21/11


//the comments of Barr, Wang, McCabe and Kelly are on the web. That you have not bothered to look is good evidence you know the truth of what I have written but will not face up to it.

What it is really evidence of is my lack of interest in the subject.

While you spend time battling windmills like Don Quixote, I can find better things to do with my time than to get into futile arguments with evolutionists.

Again I await your answer to the questions: What was God doing prior to earth creation? Where in Genesis 1 does it say the periods of creation were 24 hours?
---lee1538 on 12/21/11


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Lee, the comments of Barr, Wang, McCabe and Kelly are on the web. That you have not bothered to look is good evidence you know the truth of what I have written but will not face up to it.

Are these men also lacking your supreme intellect? Are they also fools?

It is revealing that when I recommended Professor Hartnett's book you had him making claims he has not made and came up with a negative comment regarding his book, from an unknown source. I am sure there are criticisms of his book, that is the nature of scientific research. But in your arrogance and laziness you made one up. That you have since refused to supply the name, or qualifications, or affiliations of the phantom critic confirms this.
---Warwick on 12/21/11


StrongAxe, when Professor Barr wrote to David Watson, he was chair of Hebrew, Oxford university-top position at a 'first tier' university. It isn't just about intelligence, but of expertise. Barr is a BiblioSceptic making him a powerful hostile witness.

I quoted the comments of Barr, Wang, McCabe and Kelly to illustrate intelligent learned men do believe Genesis describes 24hr creation days, just as written. This contradicts Lee's contention that intelligent people believe otherwise, that those who believe in 24hr creation are fools.

After all Genesis 1 gives no other length to the days of creation other than what Barr et al call 24hr days. This is of course confirmed by Exodus 20:11 which Lee admits describes 6 24hr days.
---Warwick on 12/21/11


"God has probably created multiple universes. I'm sure he's stayed occupied.
---John.usa on 12/19/11


Very good, I agree! That's thinking outside the box, especially since the Bible shows Him as Creator of the heavens and earth. It is very short-sighted & self-centered to think God only began creating when He made only the things known of by man. He is "CREATOR" past, present, future: FOREVER!
---Leon on 12/21/11


Warwick:

Barr believes Genesis teaches a 24 hour day, yet he DOES NOT BELIEVE Genesis.

"Barr is intelligent. Therefore, anything Barr says is right." is a logical fallacy.

Other intelligent people believe creation days are not 24 hours, others (INCLUDING BARR) don't believe Genesis at all.

He also said:
But I think what I say would represent their position correctly. However, you might find one or two people who would take the contrary point of view and are competent in the languages, in Assyriology, and so on: it's really not so much a matter of technical linguistic competence, as of appreciation of the sort of text that Genesis is.
---StrongAxe on 12/21/11


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//BTW you still evade the question: Is Professor Barr also of limited inteligence in believing the writer/s of Genesis ch. 1 meant 24hr days?

As I am not at all familiar with Professor Barr, et al, nor the basis for his conclusions, I really am unable to comment one way or the other.

You need to read my posts instead of trying to be argumentative.
---lee1538 on 12/21/11


From Arthur Pink,
"In the beginning, God" there was a time, when God, in the unity of His nature (though subsisting equally in three Divine Persons) dwelt all alone. There was no heaven, where His glory is now particularly manifested. No angels to hymn His praises, no universe to be upheld by the word of His power. There was nothing, no one, but God. And that not for a day, a year, or an age, but "from everlasting." God was alone, self-contained, self-sufficient, self-satisfied, in need of nothing. Had a universe, had angels, had human beings been necessary to Him in any way, they also had been called into existence from all eternity. The creating of them added nothing to God essentially. For He changes not.
---Mark_V. on 12/21/11


Lee your self-important arrogance is entertaining.

It is also entertaining that you boast you believe what Scripture says but don't. The way you misuse English is akin to how cults misuse it.

If you wish to imagine things contrary to Scripture I cannot stop you.

It is also entertaining that I believe just what Scripture says and you falsely claim that means I believe what I want to. And you claim to be of a higher order of intelligence!

BTW you still evade the question: Is Professor Barr also of limited inteligence in believing the writer/s of Genesis ch. 1 meant 24hr days?

I continue to ask such questions knowing you cannot answer as Barr et al show the falseness of your nonBiblical position.
---Warwick on 12/20/11


Warwick//Lee, do not keep us in suspense reveal the secrets you alone posess regarding God's activities in eternity.
---
Using good sense reasoning concludes that God is a creator god, that He, contrary to what you want to believe, created many of the stars prior to the 4th period of earth's creation.

Genesis 1:6 God made two great lights-the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.

I am sure there is a name for it, but the last sentence was added to account for the lights in the sky which existed long before earth creation.

It is those of limited mentality that would believe God did nothing but contemplate His navel prior to earth creation.
---lee1538 on 12/20/11


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Father God, what were you doing before you created our world?

What was that Lord?

It's none of our business, just BELIEVE in ME.

Okay Lord Thank you.
---anon on 12/20/11


My opinion > there was "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2) in existence . . . the nasty selfish spirit of evil. And this was stinky. God so good did not bring this into existence, nor did any "very good" creature. But our Father was so delighted with His Son Jesus. He could keep pure love all in one place, in a Person . . . and in children He could create. And put that filth of evil all in one place, elsewhere, with fire to keep it there. So, He predestined there would be us as His adopted kids purely of His love (c:
---Bill_willa6989 on 12/20/11


He was fellowshipping with the Son and the Holy Spirit.
---Elder on 12/20/11


He is CREATING...
---Leon on 12/19/11


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Lee, do not keep us in suspense reveal the secrets you alone posess regarding God's activities in eternity.
---Warwick on 12/19/11


Does it matter?

That's a question we won't have answered in this world and won't care about in the next.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/19/11


Lee, He was planning!
---1st_cliff on 12/19/11


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