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Demean Other Denominations

Are those demean other Christians and their denominations accusers of the brethren?

Moderator - It is a general principle that all denominations have some weak points that make it easy for others to poke holes into, but that does not make them a cult. For example whichever denomination I join is messed up to have me as a member right off the bat :)

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 ---jerry6593 on 12/23/11
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Clement of Alexandria, (153-193-217 C. E.):

"...The Word has appeared, and fear turned into love, and that mystic angel is born - Jesus." The Instructor, Book I, chapter VII, Ante-Nicene Fathers Translations Of The Writings of the Fathers down to A. D. 325, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Vol. II, page 224.

Scott, you really need to stop using the ECF for they are not on our side:)

Nothing, then, is hated by God, nor yet by the Word. For both are one that is, God. For He has said, In the beginning the Word was in God, and the Word was God. (The Instructor, Book 1, Chapter 8)
---Ruben on 1/9/12


---scott on 1/9/12
Exodus 23:20 Behold, I send AN ANGEL before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
Deuteronomy 20:4 For the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.

Joshua 5:14 And he said, Nay, but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?

and Jesus is the leader of Gods army
Daniel 4:35 he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven,

Because MICHAEL and JESUS are one and the same, Michael also has the same exact role
---francis on 1/9/12


JESUS is leader of Gods army
Joshua 5:14 but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship,

MICHAEL is leader of God's army
Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels,

JESUS voice raises the dead
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

MICHAEL'S Voice raises the dead
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
---francis on 1/9/12


"I know a lot of excepts..." aka (2)

Clement of Alexandria, (153-193-217 C. E.):

"...The Word has appeared, and fear turned into love, and that mystic angel is born - Jesus." The Instructor, Book I, chapter VII, Ante-Nicene Fathers Translations Of The Writings of the Fathers down to A. D. 325, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Vol. II, page 224.

Logos International, Bible Dictionary:

"Michael ... in Dan. 10:13, 21, 12:1, is described as having a special charge of the Jewish nation, and in Rev. 12:7-9 as the leader of the angelic army. So exalted are the position and offices ascribed to Michael, that many think the Messiah is meant." Logos International, 1977, p. 35
---scott on 1/9/12


"I know a lot of excepts..." aka (1)

John Calvin's, Commentaries On The Book Of The Prophet Daniel:

"I embrace the opinion of those who refer this to the person of Christ, because it suits the subject best to represent him as standing forward for the defense of his elect people." T. Myers, Baker Book House, Vol. 2, 1979, page 369.

Matthew Henry on Daniel 10:

"Here is Michael our prince...Some understand it of a created angel, but an archangel of the highest order, 1 Th. 4:16, Jude 9. Others think that Michael the archangel is no other than Christ himself..."
---scott on 1/9/12




//scott: I wish to commend you on your scholarly defense of the Bible truth that Jesus is indeed the leader of the angels called Michael. //

i commend scott because he can quote many encyclopedias that say what he says. i know a lot of excepts from those who think allah is God. does that make it true?
---aka on 1/7/12


Samuel...there was no name calling. Just stating the truth.
---JIM on 1/7/12


Scott, I know what you are trying to do, it is to attack the Humanity of Jesus to discredit Him from been God. But as human, He was just like all other humans except without sin. Only One is sinless, God. And Jesus was sinless. Only God saves, but Jesus Saves. What you are missing is the most wonderful act of God that came through His eternal Son who is Divine. And no amount of Scriptures will ever convince you unless the Spirit makes it known to you,
"The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hands. He that believes on the Son has everlasting Life. But he that refuses to obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him" (John 3:35,36).
---Mark_V. on 1/7/12


scott: I wish to commend you on your scholarly defense of the Bible truth that Jesus is indeed the leader of the angels called Michael. Those that think that Michael was merely one of the millions of created angels are left with the anti-biblical position that a created being has the power to raise ALL the righteous dead with his voice.

---jerry6593 on 1/7/12


Scott, Marc is correct. You are picking and choosing what you want others to hear. Michael and Jesus Christ are not the same Person. Sorry but you are wrong. The word "Archaggelos" from the word "archo" which has at least five meanings depending where you find it in Scripture. You choose to pick one that suits you. (Isa. 9:6) contradicts your believes when we are told "And His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" A clear and explicit statement, that you deny, instead you put passages that imply. Michael the archangel is not God Almighty. This is an explicit statement in Isa. You contradict the Scriptures to present your point of view.
---Mark_V. on 1/7/12




marc, you are searching through clouds. you can see them, but you can't grasp them. you will see many encyclopedia entries about what men say about God's word. and since they belong to a denominational experts, they must be true.

however, remember the experts who said the world was flat and others said that the earth was the center of the universe. blood letting was a common practice not too long ago.
---aka on 1/6/12


Everyone, (1)

Notice Marc doesn't refute the citations from The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, A Cyclopedia Of Biblical Literature, An Exposition Of The Bible or the Geneva Study Bible regarding their comments on Michael.

He, rather, wields his flaccid apologetic sword by calling me a liar (or perhaps he's suggesting that those respected publications were lying?).

All of the sources are readily available for an honest consideration. Here a few more.

Adam Clarke (Methodist):

Regarding Revelation 12:7-10: "By the personage, in the Apocalypse, many understand the Lord Jesus." (The multi-volume commentary ) New York and Nashville, Abingdon Press, Vol. 6, page 952.
---scott on 1/6/12


Everyone, (2)

Langes Commentary On The Holy Scriptures-

(On Rev 2:7-10): "the warlike form of Christ." -

Matthew Henry, (in his unabridged and concise commentaries, On Revelation 12:9):

"2. The parties = Michael and his angels on one side, and the dragon and his angels on the other: Christ, the great Angel of the covenant [Compare Isaiah 9:6..."

Ernst Wilheim Henstenberg- in his, Christology of the OT and a Commentary on Messianic Predictions:

"The two passages in the NT, in which Michael is mentioned, serve to confirm the result already arrived at. That the Michael referred to in Rev. xii. 7 is no other than the Logos..." Vol. IV, pages 304-5.
---scott on 1/6/12


I know this post is at the end of the line and the blog is way off topic but scott is correct ,Daniel accurately points to Michael our Prince who we commonly call Jesus or Joshua.
and in Rev. a verse should read ,'the archangel of Michael,not michael the archangel'.
---earl on 1/6/12


Everyone,

Scott cuts and pastes quotes about Jesus and Michael being the same by attempting to deceive us the Reformers proclaimed Jesus was Michael.

There are any number of sites demonstrating the Watchtower's propensity to selectively quote anyone and thus take them out of context. After all ''As a soldier of Christ he is in theocratic warfare and he must exercise added caution when dealing with God's foes. Thus the Scriptures show that for the purpose of protecting the interest of God's cause, it is proper to hide the truth from God's enemies.'' ( WATCHTOWER, June 1, 1960, p. 352.) and ''Lying generally involves saying something false to a person who is entitled to know the truth'' (AID TO BIBLE UNDERSTANDING 1971, p. 1060.)
---Marc on 1/6/12


"What you cannot understand..." Mark_V

Read your own comments. Read them carefully. Do you see something missing?

You have supplied several good verses to support the foundational, scriptural declaration about the honor Christ gives the Father, his sacrifice, God's eternal purpose, etc. (John 8:50, 1 Peter 1:20, Eph. 3:11, 13:20).

But then when you say that "Jesus in the flesh was God in deity incarnated" there are no scriptural references...why? I encourage you to think very carefully about that.

No where does the Bible use this language to describe Jesus Christ. If it did you would have included those references (at least one)...right?
---scott on 1/6/12


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Scott, you posted ( John 8:50) You should know that Jesus in the flesh always honored the Father in the Spirit. His purpose in the flesh was to die for our sins. For we are told that Christ was "foreknown indeed (as a sacrifice for sin) before the foundation of the world" ( 1 Peter 1:20). Paul speaks of the "Eternal purpose which was purposed in Jesus Christ our Lord" (Eph. 3:11). And the writer of Hebrews refers to "the blood of an eternal covenant" ( 13:20). What you cannot understand is that Jesus in the flesh was God in deity incarnated. And while you try to distant Jesus in the flesh from His deity, you can never do that which is. So you try to strip Jesus from His deity with your answers.
---Mark_V. on 1/6/12


"You twisted the words of Jesus..." Mark_V

Mark_V, I have not twisted any words. In fact I generally agree with your exegesis of Jesus' words to the man in the account at Mark 10:18.

I don't believe "Deity" was being discussed at all. This conversation follows Jesus' parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector and the lesson of the little children where the principle of humility was beautifully emphasized.

With that context in mind, I believe it can be argued that Christ's words "No one is good except God alone", simply reflect his exemplary, unequaled example of humility.

"I am not seeking glory for myself..." Jesus at John 8:50
---scott on 1/5/12


Actually Lee we have the Bible refering to the Sabbath as belonging to GOD.

Jim instead of just name calling you need to address the issue. This topic is about exactly what you just did. Instead of talking about the issue you just attack the person which a charge of him being an antichrist.
---Samuel on 1/5/12


Scott and his straight face- Jim (1)

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia:

"The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the pre-incarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the child and the archangel in Rev 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel." Vol. 3, page 2048.

A Cyclopedia Of Biblical Literature:

"There seems good reason for regarding Michael as the Messiah. Such was the opinion of the best among the ancient Jews...He appears as the Great Prince who standeth for Israel (Dan. xii. 1), and he is called the Prince of Israel." (Dan. x. 21) William L. Alexander, editor, Vol. 3, page 158.
---scott on 1/5/12


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Scott and his straight face- Jim (2)

An Exposition Of The Bible-
(Produced by 27 scholars):

"It is even itself probable that the Leader of the hosts of light (in Rev. 12:7-9) will be no other than the Captain of our salvation, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. Above all, the prophecies of Daniel, in which the name Michael first occurs, may be said to decide the point." Vol. 6, 1910, page 882.

Geneva Study Bible: Da 12:1 -

"And at that time shall Michael {a} stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people...God will send his angel to deliver it, whom he here calls Michael, meaning Christ..."

Etc., etc., etc., etc.
---scott on 1/5/12


scott...how can you keep a straight face when you talk to others about Jesus.
You think He is michael the archangel! That is antichrist.
---JIM on 1/5/12


Scott, you twisted the words of Jesus to make it sound as though He was not good but God only, this way you can proclaim He was not God, to your own destruction.
Because that is not what Jesus was saying.
Jesus was not declaiming His own Deity, but rather teaching the young man that all but God are sinners. This young man's most serious spiritual defect was his reluctance to confess his own utter spiritual bankruptcy see (5:3) "Poor in Spirit" is the opposite of self-sufficiency. This speaks of a deep humility of recognizing one's utter spiritual bankruptcy apart from God. And so He tells him, 'if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. If he could he could enter, but he could't for no one can keep the whole law.
---Mark_V. on 1/5/12


Clearly Jesus presents a contrast...not contract.
---scott on 1/5/12


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"Why do you call ME good? No one is good but GOD ALONE"- Marc (2)

Clearly Jesus presents a contract between "ME" and "GOD ALONE." Not unlike his prayer to his father at John 17:3:

"That they may know you, the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." NIV

Further- Jesus is not indicating that only His Father is morally good and everone else is bad. If Jesus had made such a statement he would be contradicting the Scriptures:

"The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good." Matt 12:35.

"Well done, good and faithful servant". Matt 25:21, 23.

"Joseph...a good and righteous man...." Luke 23:50.
---scott on 1/5/12


Scott,

Another assiduous avoidance of my question and a superb example of question begging in favour of the Watchtower's faux theology.

I can't answer your question because it presumes Jesus' rhetorical question was a denial He is God Almighty. You assume this is the correct understanding of Jesus' statement. This is why I objected to your assertion Jesus was CORRECTING the man.

Taken in light of Jesus declaring that ''all should honour the Son just as they honour the Father'' and ''he is the image of the invisible God...all things were created through him, for him and in him all things consist'', it hardly seems certain, alla Watchtowerism, Jesus was disavowing any claim to being God.

Now, answer my question Scott.
---Marc on 1/4/12


Samuel //But saying it refers to Sunday is a revision of history since John was a Jew and would not have called the first day from Sabbath the Lord's day.
---
True that the Lord's day mentioned in Revelation does not specify either the Sabbath or Sunday, however, we can easily see from the writers of the early church, that they regarded the Lord's day to be Sunday - the day of resurrection.

Since that happens to be the only direct evidence we have as to what the Lord's day is, there is no reason to believe it was anything but Sunday.

---lee1538 on 1/4/12


"Only God is Good"- Marc (1)

Your response is simply a red-herring to avoid answering a direct question...again.

Whether "correct" was the best choice or not, to suggest that I was quoting scripture rather than offering my observations is silly and reveals the superficial level of thought that you attach to these discussions.

Christ responded: "Why do you call me Good, only God is good." Surely the man would hesitate to call him "good" again. Would you? If that's not 'correction' I don't know what is.

My question (rephrased for your convenience):

"if Jesus is the Almighty God and "only God is good" why question the man for calling him good?
---scott on 1/4/12


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Sunday is never called the LORD'S day in the New Testament. Some have made the assumption that is what John is saying in Revelation. But John could either be talking of Sabbath or speaking prophetically of the day of the Lord. Both are allowable by the wording.

But saying it refers to Sunday is a revision of history since John was a Jew and would not have called the first day from Sabbath the Lord's day.
---Samuel on 1/4/12


Jerry //"Even down to the latter part of the fourth century, almost all churches throughout the world celebrated the Sabbath every week, except Rome and Alexandria, according to two of the great early historians, Socrates and Sozomen" (Straw, p. 101).

The problem here is twofold. First of all, it is contrary to the conclusion of church historians, even Samuele Bacchiocchi, SDA church historian. And second, it is contrary to all the other early church fathers.

As to sunday worship being the norm for other religions, I do not see that in history. However, if some ancient Romans worshipped the sun god on Sundays, they also worshipped Saturnus the god of agriculture on Saturdays.
---lee1538 on 1/4/12


Lee: "Sunday worship was the norm by 135 A.D."

It was the norm for many centuries before that! It was called PAGAN SUN WORSHIP.

"Even down to the latter part of the fourth century, almost all churches throughout the world celebrated the Sabbath every week, except Rome and Alexandria, according to two of the great early historians, Socrates and Sozomen" (Straw, p. 101).

"More than that, all the men for the first two centuries whose writings have been authenticated beyond question, and who opposed the Sabbath and favored Sunday observance, were men who were sympathetic with Gnosticism and who had anti-Jewish prejudice" (Straw, 102, See also pp. 39-44, 101).


---jerry6593 on 1/4/12


//This means in the 1st century, during the lifetime of the apostles, the majority DID NOT KEEP SUNDAY, they observed the SABBATH.

yes, just about everyone can tell you the earliest church was all Jewish and continued in the Mosaic traditions including observing the Jewish Sabbath.

After the Jerusalem council Acts 15, there was no demand made of the Gentiles to convert to Judaism.

And as the leadership passed onto the Gentiles, the Sabbath was no longer observed.

And the reason the Gentile church did not observe the Sabbath was because the Apostles and their immediate successors did NOT teach it.

We can easily conclude that from the fact church historians have found Sunday worship was the norm by 135 A.D.
---lee1538 on 1/3/12


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Scott,

Jesus asks the man why he called him good because only God is good. Jesus didn't correct the man, as you report the incident. Where is the word 'correct' in God's Word? Another example of adding to the text to support your belief?

Please explain, Scott, ON THE ARIAN JW understanding how Scripture does not contradict itself by having the two propositions 'God is the only good' and 'Barnabas is good' being simultaneously true?

With respect to Mark 10:18, is Jesus good or is he not good, given that The Watchtower demands that its adherents believe Jesus is not God?

Take your time.
---Marc on 1/3/12


Francis: In Rev 1:10, John calls Sunday 'The Day of the Lord', which indicates that John already associated that day with something 'higher' than the other days of the week

So the view about Sunday does once appear even in the NT
---Peter on 1/3/12


However, sunday worship was the practice of the majority church by the beginning of the 2sd century - and that according to SDA church historians.
---lee1538 on 1/3/12
This means that in the 1st century, during the lifetime of the apostles, the majority DID NOT KEEP SUNDAY, they observed the SABBATH

It means that in the second centrury AFTER the death of all the apostles APOSTACY included a departure from the the MORN, a depature from the commandments of God

This would be consistant with BIBLE prophecy:
Daniel 7:23 The fourth beast ( ROME)..shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws:
---francis on 1/3/12


One of the problem Jerry & his cronies refuse to acknowledge is the fact that the Holy Spirit has perserved the truth of His word throughout the ages. They want to believe (as do the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.) that the church became corrupted and they in their ignorance have chosen to blame the Roman Catholic church especially for changing the Sabbath to sunday.

However, sunday worship was the practice of the majority church by the beginning of the 2sd century - and that according to SDA church historians.

However, like other denomination they do have their good points so should not condemn them for their few erroneous doctrines.
---lee1538 on 1/3/12


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Jerry, I agree with you 100% that your answers to my last five asseertions are still the same, and that your answers are also 100% completely FALSE!!!

You are still a LIAR, and a bearer of FALSE WITNESS, and you are a HATER OF TRUTH!!!
---Rob on 1/3/12


Maybe you guys should take a breath and say why you follow a doctrine and why it works for you. Give a testimony of witness. Rather than fire broadsides at each other. What your faith means to you. Promote understanding rather than conflict. Then if there is no common ground agree to differ. Is this a States thing, it appears to be an evangelistic war?
There are reasons you all follow the faith you do and it is right for you.
The justification of a faith is not the detriment of another. It is upon the ground which your faith stands which is its rock or clay, not the failings you rightly or wrongly see in others.
Jesus came to change the whole known world with his teachings of forgiveness, mercy and compassion. Not conflict.
---chris on 1/3/12


Rob: My answer to your last five assertions is the same. They are all completely FALSE. Do you not have any corroborating evidence to support any of your slanderous claims, or is blind assertion sufficient for you?


---jerry6593 on 1/3/12


Jerry, you talk about keeping the 10 commandments, yet you have proven you do not keep them.

Many times on these blogs you have broken the 9th commandment because you are a liar and bear false witness against myself and others, including the Apostle Paul.

You say you believe the Bible, but a perfect example you don't is you reject what is written in Galatians and 2 Peter Chapter Two.

Another exanple is what you wrote to Lee on the "what is a cult bolg on 1/1/12.

You reject the letters the Apostle Paul wrote to the Church, yet you hold onto the writtings of Ellen G. White, even though many times she has been exposed and proven to have been a FALSE PROPHET.
---Rob on 1/2/12


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Dear Rob My Christian Library includes books by Martin Luther, Biographies of great men of GOD and books by E. G. White. I also have books that have the writing of Early churh Fathers and Church History. I see a need for all these books as well as good Bible dictionaries and Concordances.

They are all good and help make my Library complete. What makes yours may differ but that is okay for it is just an opinon.
---Samuel on 1/2/12


Sadly too many times Seventh day Adventist have retaliated or attacked others in way that we should not have.

Yet being called cultist, liars and chidren of Satan is not correct either.

I read proclaimation for the same reason I read many articls against the SDA. I want to know why others believe we are wrong and on what basis. The lies in the magazine irratate me and the false way of presenting Cavanistic beliefs without telling that they are doing so do not make me want to join with them.

My understanding of Grace came from reading the Bible, Ellen White, Martin Luther and John Wesley.
---Samuel on 1/2/12


Dear Samuel -

Yes, there has always been disagreements between people regarding matters of religion, so what else is new?

Howbeit, you should be able to see that Adventism has always condemned others for not accepting their interpretations of Scirpture, the primary ones being observance of the Jewish Sabbath, the dietary laws, and your investigative judgment theory - so why should you cry when others criticize your unique beliefs?

Yes, I gain much from Proclamation Magazine as apparently those articles are starting to speak to you.
---lee1538 on 1/2/12


Jerry, I believe the Bible is the True Word of God, it is complete, and without any error. Once again you have proven yourself to be a liar. I challenge you to go through these blogs and show myself and others where I ever stated I do not believe the entire Bible.

On the other hand there is proof you don't believe the entire Bible. This is why in the past both Francis and yourself have written no Christian library is complete unless it includes the Writtings of Ellen G. White.
---Rob on 1/2/12


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Rob: Name calling does not prove your point, it just makes you look small. If you have some evidence that my beliefs are not Bible-based, bring them forth. You, on the other hand, have stated previously that you do not believe the entire Bible (whereas I do). It would seem then that you are like a pot calling the kettle black.


---jerry6593 on 1/1/12


One church, one God, one Christ.
I wouldn't like to comment on the doctrine of other churches being right or wrong. I think it is right that we encourage each other on our journey.
I just believe that prayer and the personal relationship you build with Christ, is what should unite us. There lay many of the answers.
If you know Christ then he will remember you.
Peace be with you all.
---chris on 1/1/12


Dear Lee

I read back to the last time I posted. YOu have not asked one single question. Instead you have attacked, demeaned and put down me and all Christians who are Seventh day Adventist.

I am more then willing to answer questions. I read a magazine by former SDA's they also attack us for not becoming Calvanists like they are. But that attack also demans all non Calvanist.

Now tell the Methoidst that we invented the doctrine of Ten Commandments for Christians. Tell the 7th day Baptist that we started the keeping of Sabbath.

Tell me of more then two doctrines of ours that was not taught previously to the birth of Siste White? I only know of two.
---Samuel on 1/1/12


Jerry //As you are well aware, my beliefs are founded on the Bible alone, not on Adventism.

A trite claim that nearly everyone from every denominational group makes.

Your problem is that while you make that claim, your interpretations of the Bible are basically those of Ellen White and/or of Adventism. And that is where many have a problem with Adventism - a fairly new religion that came out of the early 1800's - the same as other cults.
---lee1538 on 1/1/12


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Jerry, you writting your beliefs are founded on the Bible alone is an out right lie. SDA's base their beliefs on the writtings of Ellen G. White.

As usual, you will say I am attacking Ellen G. White and the SDA's, whein I am only sharing the TRUTH!
---Rob on 12/31/11


Cluny: "Jerry should not feel too bad being persecuted for his belief in Adventism"

As you are well aware, my beliefs are founded on the Bible alone, not on Adventism. Your beliefs appear to be based on the doctrines of men - men who call the Word of God a lie.


---jerry6593 on 12/31/11


//When a teacher corrects a child's errors on a math test, and shows where the student is wrong, is the teacher persecuting the child?//

It depends how the teacher does it.
---Rod4Him on 12/29/11


YaY! MOD,so hillarious,so true :D

idk?why? but as of lately the local big,rich,affluent, NonDenominational church has really been trashing on our poor lil baptist church :(
---Kevin5443 on 12/29/11


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\\Jerry should not feel too bad being persecuted for his belief in Adventism, as clearly the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Oneness Pentecostals, the Way International and other controversial groups are criticized in much the same way.\\

When a teacher corrects a child's errors on a math test, and shows where the student is wrong, is the teacher persecuting the child?

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/28/11


Some denominations are proven to be more Christlike than others. And the accuser of the brothers are NonChristians.
---Eloy on 12/28/11


I find it sad that for so long we have been ignorant of God's truth. The Catholic church under Constantine and then the Roman church has controlled the view of all "christian" belief no matter how much people think they are not connected. The Mosaic Law was written to the Hebrews only not the rest of the world. Before the Law God dealt with man with His mercy. He chose a people to demonstrate His love and kindness through, Hebrews. They blew it over and over. He said He would take His love to the Gentiles for a season, which is about over and then restore the Hebrews again. The Sabbath, 7th day not Sunday, was from the beginning not the Law. Sunday was forced on the "church" to identify the "jew".
---Bob_Baker on 12/28/11


There is probably no other denomination that has caused so many spiritual problems with so very many people as Adventism. We can easily see that in the multitude of books, articles and websites from former Adventists.

Unfortunately, Adventists are really not skilled in either Scripture nor in Church history to justify any of their non-orthodox beliefs. We can easily see that in that both Francis & Jerry will not or cannot answer many of the questions posed to them on this forum.
---lee1538 on 12/28/11


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Jerry should not feel too bad being persecuted for his belief in Adventism, as clearly the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Oneness Pentecostals, the Way International and other controversial groups are criticized in much the same way.
---lee1538 on 12/27/11


\\Since the Sabbath commandment really had no implication of worship, you cannot say that the Mark of the Beast has anything to do with the observance of the Sabbath.\\

Especially since the Mark of the Beast, according to Rev 13, determines who can buy or sell.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/27/11


Lee & Cluny: Thank you for proving my point better than I could. You two spew your hatred for others while hiding behind your pseudonyms, pronounce "facts" from your distorted imaginations without substantiation, and when confronted with the unorthodox nature of your non-biblical opinions, you dodge the issue by your silly name-calling ritual.

Most of us have differences of opinion on religious doctrine. Why can't we discuss those doctrines like Christians (from the Bible and not the opinions of men), rather than descend into these childish attacks?


---jerry6593 on 12/28/11


So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.


I just love the way Jesus walks in, says a few words, and everybody is convicted by their own conscience.
Peace

Ps. The Mark of the Beast?
I think, before you go marking or pointing at anyone with that.
Be sure you know who the Son of God is!
Amen
---TheSeg on 12/28/11


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"Are those demean other Christians and their denominations accusers of the brethren?" Since i think this a serious charge, I'd be careful not to quickly label anyone accusers of the brethren. While anyone might on occassion accuse brethren, I see that as different from being (an) accuser of the brethren, associated with or belonging to the enemy. The BOC is not found only in one denom or another,but is a church
without walls. His church is wherever HE is within His people. The world hates those that are His...we WILL see that...
---chria9396 on 12/28/11


jerry, if you're trying to play the victim card here, it's not working.

But I find it singularly odd that neither jerry nor francis are saying ANYTHING about the direct quotes from EGW that I have given.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/27/11


jerry//The mark of the beast, like the seal of God is concerned with worship.

Since the Sabbath commandment really had no implication of worship, you cannot say that the Mark of the Beast has anything to do with the observance of the Sabbath.

It is a man-made tradition that the Sabbath became a day of worship instead of a day of simply rest from labor.

Howbeit, as to the Creation rest, those who believe have entered into that rest prefigured by the Sabbath, not those of Israel that did observe the Sabbath. Hebrews 4

Sorry Jerry but you really have been led astray by a religion that even started on a false premise (did Jesus really come again in 1844?)
---lee1538 on 12/27/11


//We teach that when the Goverment and church combine to force people to not keep Sabbath and they must worship on sunday or be executed then Sunday will become the Mark of the beast. That is not a current event, but a future one.

All that bull from the rantings of olde Ellen White, the divine prophetess of Adventism.

I guess the Bible is not enough for Adventists as they need a woman to give them guidance.

With the kind of condemning doctrines that Adventists have toward other Christians, they should not be heard from if they are treated in kind.

Adventism is a good example of what the master of evil can do to a religion.
---lee1538 on 12/26/11


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\\Those who believe in the pretrib teach the U.S. will be destroyed or become part of the one world goverment. Does that make then bad?\\

Yes, because the pre-trib rapture doctrine is false to start with.

EGW has been wrong about so many other things. Why should she be right about this?

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/26/11


Cluny: "jerry, by your own standards, SDAs are accusers of the brethren, because its official teaching is that worship on Sunday is the mark of the beast....I've seen this in SDA literature."

Samuel has given correction to your false statements. Please give quotes where you've "seen this in SDA literature", or retract the comment.

The mark of the beast, like the seal of God is concerned with worship. The issue has been, and will always be: Do you worship the true Creator God or a man-made counterfeit?


---jerry6593 on 12/27/11


So right you are Cluny. We know that warnings and challenges in matters of doctrine are very much proper within the believers community.
However there are many evangelicals who are sending out warnings concerning Romney and the LDS even questioning their claim they are Christians.
Hmmmmm.
---llarry on 12/25/11


We teach that when the Goverment and church combine to force people to not keep Sabbath and they must worship on sunday or be executed then Sunday will become the Mark of the beast. That is not a current event, but a future one.

Also the current Blue laws do not do this nor has the U.S. chosen to do this now. Although in the past people were put in jail for not keeping Sunday that no longer goes on.

Those who believe in the pretrib teach the U.S. will be destroyed or become part of the one world goverment. Does that make then bad?
---Samuel on 12/25/11


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//jerry, by your own standards, SDAs are accusers of the brethren, because its official teaching is that worship on Sunday is the mark of the beast.

Yes, we can see the condemnation and accusations from Adventists literature. The worst being that those who have Jesus as Lord & Savior will have the mark of the Beast applied to them simply because they have communal worship on Sundays - the Lord's day as established in the first century by the Apostles & their immediate successors.

Yes, I can see that Jerry has his feelings hurt, but he really needs to look that the beam in his own eyes before trying to remove the speck in the eyes of others.
---lee1538 on 12/23/11


To begin with, "denominations" are not part of the Body of Christ. It was Paul who prompted, "Is Christ divided?" The Body of Christ is simply known as the church made up of ONLY His people known as Christians and definitely not denominations because "Christ is not divided".

And there's no such thing as "Christians and their denominations". A Christian is a Christian and does not belong to any denomination according to the Word of God. The Christian simply belong to Jesus Christ.
---christan on 12/23/11


Actually we teach that when people unite to force those who keep Sabbath upon penalty of death to keep Sunday and give up Sabbath then it will become the Mark of the Beast. For they will have taken up the tactics of Satan forcing people to do their will.

This also goes along with the second charge. When the U.S. repudiates seperation of church and state to force belief on people then it will become the false prophet.

Commentator loved your point and it is so true for me too.

By the way some who believe in the pretrib rapture speak of the U. S. being destroyed or joining in a one world goverment.
---Samuel on 12/23/11


Jerry, I really cannot undersand why it was you who posted this question, because most of the accusations against others come from the SDA's of which you belong. They are the only denomination whose members argue over and over again against everyone who do not worship Saturday Sabbaths, and every question is put out there about the Old Testament and the Law. Everyone here who outside of the SDA's never mention anything about the SDA's until the accusations come out from you and francis how unholy everyone is and how great you guys are for keeping Saturday Sabbath. You are not happy if we worship the Sabbath, you want us to worship on Saturdays. Very legalistic.
---Mark_V. on 12/24/11


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Moderator, I have heard and read a lot of great posts.
But, every few have this kind of insight. Truly words to live by.

Mat_13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

God bless you!
---TheSeg on 12/24/11


Paul spoke against 'SECTAS PERDITIONIS' (groups have their own MEANINGS of the word "perdition", but there is no established DEFINITION in any modern language).

Perditious beliefs (wrongful beliefs) have always been used by satan to cause what we've decided to accept as "denominations" (the modern word for "sect"). The outcome/result of 19 centuries of perditious beliefs is that the modern "church" is the "SON OF" perdition.

...also the 3 aspects of God (Father, Son, Spirit) have always been taught to us as though man (the 6th day creation) should be glorified.....hence, the "son"/outcome is the "denomination".

Nevertheless, do not cause strife/division.
---more_excellent_way on 12/24/11


In biblical times, the word "perdition" referred to an INTENTIONAL mistruth meant to promote belief in a sect/cult. John 17:12 only 'refers to' "SONS OF", but doesn't EXPLAIN the CONCEPT OF "perdition".

Many believers have learned to feel comfortable believing "mistruths" ('nurtured by the woman'), but by having these "mistruths" exposed, many will "Come out of her, my people"...Rev. 18:4, may the sons of God (symbolically "144,000") outnumber the sons of perdition.

Scripture addresses the people of two thousand years ago, THE SPIRIT addresses the "True worshipper" of John 4:23.
---more_excellent_way on 12/24/11


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