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Obedience To Will Of God

In being obedience to the will of God, which takes precedence, the actual observance of the law or simply the principle behind the law?

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 ---lee1538 on 12/26/11
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//The event had nothing to do with keeping the Sabbath as the whole city would mean both believing and non-believing Jews and Gentiles.
---lee1538

LOL LOL
SO why not NEXT DAY?
-------------
No one has a problem with the fact that the early church as well as the jews gathered on the Sabbath for communal worship, however that changed by the end of the first century.

And that fact is verified even by SDA church historians.

Sorry that you have no real argument for your view that the Sabbath was imposed onto the Church.
---lee1538 on 1/7/12


Jerry //Do you seek to follow Jesus and to please Him by obedience?

Do we follow Jesus by observing OT laws?

Or do we like the Scripture teaches, follow Jesus by our walk by faith?

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 3:11-12 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

You really need to get away from that legalism and walk by faith in the grace God provides for you instead of trying to transform your old fleshy nature.
---lee1538 on 1/7/12


jerry6593. Christians PLEASE God and we do this without following SDA doctrine.

See 1John3:22,23:
"...we keep his commandments, and do those things pleasing in his sight.
And this is his commandment, that we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another,as he gave us commandment".

As for washing feet, SDA's misunderstand it. Jesus dealt with sin ONCE and for all on the cross. There's no need for SDA foot washing to deal with what has already been dealt with. SDA doctrine suggests that Christ's sacrifice did not completely deal with sin on the cross. A dangerous doctrine.

But note instead how feet is spoken of in context of the gospel (Eph 6:15, Rom 10:15).
---Haz27 on 1/7/12


They need not be seperated

example: the bible says that the 7th day is the sabbath, that the 7th day ( saturday) is blessed and holy and sanctified by God. On that day we are to rest from servile work and gather to worship God who is the creator of heaven and earth.

Many false teachers teach that it is the principle that matters that we are to rest one day ( ANY DAY) of the 7 days week. Mind you they never rest, they got o church and then do their own pleasure after church.

But SDA's follow BOTH the observance ( by resting on the sabbath day) and the principle ( honouring God as creator of the universe)
---francis on 1/7/12


Haz: "Seek Jesus instead."

Good advice! Do you seek to follow Jesus and to please Him by obedience?

Joh 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet, ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

---jerry6593 on 1/7/12




Samuel & Francis. SDA doctrine distorts scriptures a lot if thats it's view about our working righteousness.

And yet we see SDA's failing to keep commandmnets, including not observing Sabbath correctly.
And the SDA foot washing doctrine for dealing with SDA "unrighteousness" does nothing. Instead we see Jesus dealt with sin on the cross by ONE sacrifice (Heb 10:12). The SDA foot washing doctrine only proves how SDA's fail to do righteousness anyway.

SDA doctrine condemns even it's own followers, as revealed in the posts from Francis/ Samuel.

But the gospel of Jesus brings life.
Seek Jesus instead.

---Haz27 on 1/6/12


The event had nothing to do with keeping the Sabbath as the whole city would mean both believing and non-believing Jews and Gentiles.
---lee1538 on 1/6/12

LOL LOL
SO why not NEXT DAY?

There were believing jews and believing None jews in that same city Acts 13:43 Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God

If there are that many christians in the same city why not meet NEXT DAY
---francis on 1/6/12


Righteousness which are as filthy rags are righteousnes done by human to EARN salvation

But the bible is 100% clear that Gods people do righteousness. It is the work which we call SANCTIFICATION. It is christ in us which causes us to do what is lawful and right.

Psalms 15:2 He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
---francis on 1/6/12


Doing righteousness (1John3:10) is speaking of being in Christ and having his imputed righteousness.
---Haz27 on 1/6/12
Ts it not IMPUTED rihteousnes, it is IMPARTED righteousness

Many people have been deceived into thinking that the only righteousness is imputed ( the righteousness of Jesus given to us/ Justification)

But the bible in 1 John 3:7 speaks of imparted righteousness, the character of God given to us where by we may do what is lawful and right

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
---francis on 1/6/12


//"On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of the Lord".

The event had nothing to do with keeping the Sabbath as the whole city would mean both believing and non-believing Jews and Gentiles.

The Apostles carried with them more than just a religious message but things than were mirculous as well - healings as well as other miracles.

The historical fact is also that Sunday worship became the norm after Christianity made a greater separation from Judaism.

The event above took place before the end of the first century.

Sorry francis but neither the scripture nor early church history supports your viewpoint that Sabbath keeping was taught by the early church.
---lee1538 on 1/6/12




Doing righteousness (1John3:10) is speaking of being in Christ and having his imputed righteousness.
---Haz27

True. So we love in action not just saying words. Our love in action does not save us so your statment is correct.

Do you believe that a person who keeps on stealing is still loving others and following JESUS? How about Adultery, lying, coveting, following other gods, having idols,disrespectful to parents, mudering people and committing acultery as well as using GOD's name as a swear word? Do you believe people who do this really love GOD and love others?
---Samuel on 1/6/12


JESUS said as well as a Jewish layer that there are two great commandments. The first is:

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

We have a duty to GOD an man. So why do you Lee just talk about the one to man and not first commandemnt?

Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.
---Samuel on 1/6/12


Samuel said "Is John advocating works righteouness of simply pointing out that those who follow GOD act like JESUS wants them to.
---Samuel on 1/5/12"

What righteousness do we have by our own efforts? Mans righteousness is as filthy rags. Does SDA doctrine claim that we can do righteousness beyond having the righteousness of Christ? See what Paul thought of his righteousness before coming to Christ (Phil 3).

Doing righteousness (1John3:10) is speaking of being in Christ and having his imputed righteousness.
---Haz27 on 1/6/12


states "On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of the Lord". Does not mean they were to worship the Lord on the Sabbath. ---Mark_V. on 1/6/12

2 errors here
1: They came on sabbath because there were no christians meeting on THE NEXT DAY which would be sunday
2: Keeping the sabbath is an act of worship. SO when they gathered on sabbath as commanded by god they were commiting an act of worship
---francis on 1/6/12


Mark 12:30 thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain,
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Mark 12:31 And the second is Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Romans 13:9 Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet, honour thy father and thy mother,

LOVE GOD and LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR FULFILS THE LAW
---francis on 1/6/12


Lee: "Any fire must be sustained as sooner or later it will run out of fuel and that would require work."

Now just how much work is it to pitch a log on the fire? Do you really believe that God wanted His people to freeze on the Sabbath day? You go out of your way to infer the meaning of a word to justify your lawlessness. You are not just willingly ignorant, you are purposely so.


---jerry6593 on 1/6/12


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francis, the passage states "On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of the Lord". Does not mean they were to worship the Lord on the Sabbath. Those people were just converting to Christ and holding to old T. traditions. Go back to (v. 39) Paul said, "And by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses" and he closes with (v.40) "Beware therefore, lest what has been spoken in the prophets come upon you" Behold, you despisers, Marvel and perish. For I work a work in your days A work which you will by no means believe, though one were to declare it to you" and guess what? you don't believe.
---Mark_V. on 1/6/12


1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who isabove all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Timothy 6:1 that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

GOOD JOB LEEJ, Now the last two are not written as commands, The 2nd just says that there is ONE GOD. The 3rd just says to act correct so that God name in not blasphened, the actualy command is 1 Timothy 6:1 count their own masters worthy of all honour

Just like some commandments appear different from that given in exodus so too does the sabbath commandment:
Acts 13:44 the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

a commandment can appear as an EXAMPLE
---francis on 1/5/12


3. If the sabbath is a law and love of neighbor fulfills the law, then do we fulfill the law by what we do towards our neighbor?
---lee1538 on 1/5/12

Someone who is NOT A SDA and think they know the bible, can you show leej his error here, or are you afraid that by corecting this erro you may be thought of as siding with SDA thus youlet it slide!!!
---francis on 1/5/12


Francis //Find these commandments given to THE CHURCH

The commandment in Exodus 20:3, Dt. 5:7 is paralleled in 1 Cor. 8:6, Eph. 4:6

The commandment in Exodus 20:4, Dt. 5:8-10 is paralleled in 1 John 5:21, Rom. 1:23, Eph. 5:5

The commandment in Exodus 20:7, Dt. 5,11 has its counterpart in 1 Tim. 6:1, Mt. 6:9

The fulfillment of the commandment found in Exodus 20:8-11, Dt. 5:12-15 found its fulfillment in Hebrew 4.

There are other commandments within the Old Testament not found within the New. One example being the Jubilee.

//If you cannot find them, does that mean that they were not commanded to the church and thus should not be obey by the church?

Romans 14 gives us some freedom of convictions.
---lee1538 on 1/5/12


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No Haz we just read all the bible.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Christians are to produce good works because they are Christians.

1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Is John advocating works righteouness of simply pointing out that those who follow GOD act like JESUS wants them to.
---Samuel on 1/5/12


//It has NOTHING to do with LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR. THY neighbor did not create the earth in 6 days and rested the 7th.

You need to learn to think!

1. Is the Sabbath commandment a law? Yes or No.

2. Romans 13,10 states that love of neighbor fulfills the law. True or False?

3. If the sabbath is a law and love of neighbor fulfills the law, then do we fulfill the law by what we do towards our neighbor?

Perhaps you have a problem with what Jesus said, "If you have done it unto the least of mine, you have done it unto me." Mt. 25:40

On the other hand, if someone who claims to be a Christian does not have the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide him, then you certainly need the law.
---lee1538 on 1/5/12


Jerry //You must not be much of an outdoorsman, or else you would know the difference between "kindling" and "sustaining" a fire.

Any fire must be sustained as sooner or later it will run out of fuel and that would require work.

Devout Jews even in our time, prepare their food prior to the Sabbath so they will not have to kindle a fire in their homes on the Sabbath.

But we should all be thankful to the law promoting Sabbath keepers because if it weren't for them and the Jewish Sabbath, Christ would never have gone to the Cross. And what then would have been our payment for sin?
---lee1538 on 1/5/12


Those who accept the grace of God and the new covenant have laws of God in their hearts, and they obey the laws of God, Those who have rejected grace of God and his covenant do not have his laws in thier heart.
the ONLY reason why there is so much resistance to law of God is because people do not have it in their hearts
-Francis on 8/20/11
Let me STRENGTHEN this statement with SCRIPTURE

Romans 8:7 the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin,

1 John 3:10 Here's how we know God's children from the devil's children: God's children keep his laws and do what's right
---francis on 1/5/12


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Francis, you asked when did any SDA say if you break the ten commandments you were never saved?
I found some of yours.

Blog Topic "Void the law through grace"
" Those who accept the grace of God and the new covenant have laws of God in their hearts, and they obey the laws of God, Those who have rejected grace of God and his covenant do not have his laws in thier heart.
the ONLY reason why there is so much resistance to law of God is because people do not have it in their hearts
---Francis on 8/20/

Also see Blog topics:
Commandments of God 10/25/11.
Grace is uncondintional 9/24/11
What is lord of the sabbath 10/21/11
Do saved people sin 10/5/11

SDA's mix works with grace.

---Haz27 on 1/5/12


But what has the observance of the Jewish Sababth have to do with love of neighbor? If you answered nothing, you got the right answer.
---lee1538 on 1/5/

It has NOTHING tyo do with LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR. THY neighbour did not create the earth in 6 days and rested the 7th

It has EVERYTHINg to do with
Deuteronomy 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Did you forget that the FIRST of the great commandments is:
Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.
---francis on 1/5/12


Find these commandments given to THE CHURCH

1: Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

2: Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

AND

3: Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain,

If you cannot find them, does that mena that they were not commanded to the church and thus should notbe obey by the church?
---francis on 1/5/12


Romans 13:9 9 The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, not murder, not steal, not covet, and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

It is the spirit behind the law that counts. As if I observe the actual law, I could beat the daylights out of jerry or francis and as long as I did not kill them, I would not violate the 10 commandments. But I would be in violation of the principle or spirit behind the law.

But what has the observance of the Jewish Sababth have to do with love of neighbor? If you answered nothing, you got the right answer.
---lee1538 on 1/5/12


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In being obedience to the will of God, which takes precedence, the actual observance of the law or simply the principle behind the law?
---lee1538 on 12/26/11
FIRE IS FIRE RIGHT:
Numbers 26:61 And Nadab and Abihu died, when they offered strange fire before the LORD

GOOD INTENTION verses THE COMMAND OF GOD
2 Samuel 6:6 Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it, for the oxen shook it. and God smote him there for his error, and there he died by the ark of God.

GIVE EM WATER!
Numbers 20:8 speak ye unto the rock and it shall give forth his water,
Numbers 20:11 Moses smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly,
---francis on 1/5/12


Lee: "Jews and SDA realize that a machine turning on a fire is not kindling a fire which requres a lot of work."

Seems to me that you are violating one of your favorite scriptures by judging how Jews and SDAs keep the Sabbath.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

You must not be much of an outdoorsman, or else you would know the difference between "kindling" and "sustaining" a fire. The ancient Jews understood, which is why they carried coals of fire with them. Because "kindling" was just too much work.


---jerry6593 on 1/5/12


Obedience is what our God requires and what he takes pleasure in!
Mt22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mt22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mt22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mt22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Second: Too many of God's children don't realize we are now under GRACE. We are no longer under the Law of Moses. Christ fulfilled this law.
It's by God's grace that Christ died and rose again for us.
It's by Christ's obedience that any of us get into heaven.
Eph. 2:8 & 9
---trey on 1/5/12


As for Jesus laid down how we observe the Sabbath, did He not say that the Sabbath was but the rest beleivers enter into? Hebrews 4.
---lee1538 on 1/4/12
NO HE DID NOT
Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, AS GOD DID FROM HIS.

Hebrews 4:4 And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
---FRANCIS on 1/5/12


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Samuel //How to observe the Sabbath is laid down by JESUS. Jews and SDA realize that a machine turning on a fire is not kindling a fire which requres a lot of work.

You simply are re-defining what work is. No matter how you kindle fire, the law says you are not to kindle a fire in your home during the Sabbath. The verse does not address how you do it.

Exodus 35:3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

As for Jesus laid down how we observe the Sabbath, did He not say that the Sabbath was but the rest beleivers enter into? Hebrews 4.
---lee1538 on 1/4/12


Your question about Exodus 35:3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day. Is a self condenming question
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Romans 2:13

It tells me that you are well aware of the law of God, yet you choose to ignore it The only people who are under the law, are those who forsake the law.

To those who observe and do the laws and precepts of God is it: Psalms 119:45 And I will walk at LIBERTY: for I seek thy precepts.

James 1:25 whoso looketh into the perfect law of LIBERTY, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
---francis on 1/4/12


Galatians 3:10
They will not respond to this either as they are really in a corner. lee1538

I have responded to these points many times yet you state I have not. Why?

How to observe the Sabbath is laid down by JESUS. Jews and SDA realize that a machine turning on a fire is not kindling a fire which requres a lot of work.

I would be cursed if I thought that works added to my salvation and was trying to save myself by works. But since Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

We obey in love like 1john says.
---Samuel on 1/4/12


JackB//You still are in sin if you light a fire in your home on the Sabbath"

This will be ignored. I guarantee it.
---
There are other regulations dealing with the observance of the Sabbath including one involving limitations on travel.

Adventists simply will not acknowledge that fact that the law brings to them a curse.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

They will not respond to this either as they are really in a corner.
---lee1538 on 1/4/12


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\\Francis -You still are in sin if you light a fire in your home on the Sabbath.

And if you habitually sin, the truth really does not dwell within you.

So why do you pitch the observance of the Jewish Sabbath if no one in Adventism truly observes it?\\

I've pointed this out many times.
---Cluny on 1/4/12


"Francis -You still are in sin if you light a fire in your home on the Sabbath"--Lee1538


This will be ignored. I guarantee it.
---JackB on 1/4/12


It depends on what law you are talking about, "the New Testament Law" or "the old testament law", "the Law of the Spirit" or "the letter of the law", "the ministry of Life" or "the ministry of death".
---Eloy on 1/4/12


It is imposible for anyone who has the spirit of God to see the sabbath as "jewish."
1: Sabbath started at creation week when there was no jews.
2: Sabbath commandment was given at the same time as all the other Ten Commandments, with nothing said that it was for Jews only
3: It was spoken to a MIXED multitude of jews and Non-jews
4: Bible says that sabbath is for EVERY ONE:Isaiah 56:6 every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant,
Mark 2:27 The sabbath was made for man,
5: Gentiles observed it: Acts 13:42 Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
---francis on 1/4/12


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Francis -You still are in sin if you light a fire in your home on the Sabbath.

And if you habitually sin, the truth really does not dwell within you.

So why do you pitch the observance of the Jewish Sabbath if no one in Adventism truly observes it?

Frankly, it is all too easy to see that the Sabbath as well as other uniquely Jewish laws were not required of Gentile believers. The Jerusalem council Acts 15 made it abundantly clear that Gentiles need not convert to Judaism in order to be legit. The Gentiles were receiving the Spirit of God the same as those who were Jewish at Pentecost.

Again, is not your problem simply that you refuse to acknowledge that the New covenant replaced the Old?
---lee1538 on 1/3/12


Francis//It does not say that a new covenant is written in our hearts. it say that THE LAW will be written in our minds and hearts.

Yes, to be accurate that is true, ---lee1538 on 1/3/12

Ofcourse it is true
In case you have not been paying attention everything which the adventist post here comes strait from THE BIBLE and thus is acurate and terue
---francis on 1/3/12


Perhaps Adventists have changed God's sabbath law from a day of rest to merely a day of worship.
---lee1538 on 1/3/12

We did not " change it" It HAS ALWAYS BEEN a day fo worship

Leviticus 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day [is] the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation,
Ezekiel 46:3 the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the LORD in the sabbaths..

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.



IT WILL ALWAYS BE:
Isaiah 66:22 For as the new earth,..it shall come to pass, that from..one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
---FRANCIS on 1/3/12


There are NO BIBLE VERSES which say that sunday is the Lord's day

Only the SABBATH can be BIBLICALLY accepted as the "lord's day"

Isaiah 58:13 the sabbath.. my holy day,

And this is when christians assembled:
Acts 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made, ...Acts 16:18 And this did she many days

So they met every sabbath for MANY days

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

AND SO IT WILL BE IN THE NEW EARTH
Isaiah 66:22 the new earth, ..it shall come to pass, that from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
---francis on 1/3/12


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Francis//It does not say that a new covenant is written in our hearts. it say that THE LAW will be written in our minds and hearts.

Yes, to be accurate that is true, howbeit of the 600+ laws in the Old Testament, many do not apply to the Christian. Some like the Sabbath law was fulfilled by the ministry of Christ.

One OT law is you may not light a fire in your home on the Sabbath (Exodus 35:3). Do you prepare your food before the Sabbath & warm your house prior to the Sabbath?

Perhaps Adventists have changed God's sabbath law from a day of rest to merely a day of worship.

While wrong to be workaholics, we are commanded to assemble with others for our common good. Hebrew 10:25 and we do that on the Lords day.
---lee1538 on 1/3/12


you are mistaken in your interpretation of Hebrews 8:10 as you ignore the previous verse that the new covenant written on the hearts of believers ---lee1538 on 1/3/12

It does not say that a new covenant is writen in our hearts. it say that THE LAW will be writen inour minds and hearts

Hebrews 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
---francis on 1/3/12


Samuel - largely agree with your assessment regarding trusting the law for ones salvation as we are justified (declared righteous) by faith (Romans 1:17, Gal. 3:11-12, the law is not of faith. etc.).

Much of what Ellen White wrote was from other Christian authors. We can see that from her library and from those who have critiqued her writings.

But I believe not all laws found in the OT are applicable to the Christians as some have found their fulfillment in the ministry of Christ. One being that the Sabbath but depicted God's rest at creation that believers would enter into. Israel failed to enter into that rest despite the fact they observed the 7th day Sabbath.(Hebrews 4)
---lee1538 on 1/3/12


Those who continue to trust their Sinai-law keeping ... are still in the slavery of bondage and are to be counted as spiritual descendents of Ishmael and are still under the Old Covenant. See Galatians 4:21f.
---lee1538

Yes Lee your point is correct. But SDA are taught over and over to not trust the law for salvation. We trust JESUS CHIRST for salvation past, present and future. Law keeping is the result of being saved, dying to self and the world and living unto GOD Gal 6. Roms 3
1 john. I can show hundreds of times that EG White wrote this down.

Justification, Sanctification glorification. All accomplished in us by the HOLY SPIRIT when we are in JESUS. Our job is to die to self and get out of the way.
---Samuel on 1/3/12


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Francis - you are mistaken in your interpretation of Hebrews 8:10 as you ignore the previous verse that the new covenant written on the hearts of believers would be different than the Sinatic covenant He made with Israel when He brought them out of Egypt. The Old Covenant tenets are not written onto believers hearts.

Those who continue to trust their Sinai-law keeping and/or their nationality of righteousness are still in the slavery of bondage and are to be counted as spiritual descendents of Ishmael and are still under the Old Covenant. See Galatians 4:21f.
---lee1538 on 1/3/12


Hebrews 8:13 old covenant became obsolete,
Acts 15 Apostles recognized that God had accpeted Gentiles and that without conversion to Judaism.
---lee1538 on 1/2/12

2 ERRORS
1: Hebrews 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I WILL PUIT MY LAWS into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

So the New Covenant still has the laws of God to Gods people

2: Gentilkes were accepted without CIRCUMCISION not without the commandmends of GOD

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
---francis on 1/2/12


francis - to be more correct in Hebrews 13:8, Please note the term 'is becoming obsolete and growing old" meaning that the Old Covenant is being replaced by the New.

In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

I trust this verse sufficiently provides the right answer to you, that the church was in transition from the Old to the New Covenant.
---lee1538 on 1/2/12


//Then you need to apoligize for saying all SDA's are chidren of Satan.

"There are now 2 distinct camps in Adventism. The split became apparent in the late 1970's when pastors of many years' standing began to question some of the peculiar doctrines of their prophetess, Ellen G. White arguing that these could not be supported by the Scriptures."p. 724 AMG's Encyclopedia of World Religions, Cults and the Occult, Mark Waters.

Yes, I sense that you belong to the Christian section of Adventism and are slowly discarding the garments of the non-biblical faction.

Keep on reading Proclamation as you can join the thousands that have left Adventism.

---lee1538 on 1/2/12


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//Obeisance can be done only to gods and those of higher station. So it can be used as a synonym for worship. Did anyone here know that?// Samuel

sorry for the interruption, but the Scripture For The Trinity blog is closed.

that simply is not true.

1. A gesture or movement of the body, such as a curtsy, that expresses deference or homage.
2. An attitude of deference or homage.
[Middle English obeisaunce, from Old French obeissance, from obeissant, present participle of obeir, to obey, see obey.]

although it can be used as a synonym, Obeisance doesn't have the same connotations as worship has.

i give my obeisance to my employers, but i do not worship them.
---aka on 1/2/12


//While the early Jewish Christians continued in the Mosaic traditions - festivals, Sabbaths, temple worship, etc. understanding of the Pentecost experience was not yet acquired.
--
Biblical proof please!!!
---
Hebrews 8:13 old covenant became obsolete,
Acts 15 Apostles recognized that God had accpeted Gentiles and that without conversion to Judaism.

The understanding of what constitued the New Covanant was a slow transition.

"According to Luke, the church at first has not worked out the full implications of its Easter experience, and to a great extent, merely ran on in the well-worn grooves of Jewish piety." DA Carson, From Sabbath to Lord's Day, p. 121

You need to read church history.
---lee1538 on 1/2/12


NO I do not view you or others as children of Satan, but I believe your understanding of some of the basics of the Christian faith is lacking. lee1538

Then you need to apoligize for saying all SDA's are chidren of Satan.

One of the points we differ is that I believe all Scripture is for Christians. 2tim.3:16 Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

I also believe that as Paul used the Bible in his day as authoritive so can I. Lastly EGW is not infallabile.
---Samuel on 1/2/12


//While the early Jewish Christians continued in the Mosaic traditions - festivals, Sabbaths, temple worship, etc. understanding of the Pentecost experience was not yet acquired.
--lee1538 on 12/31/11

Biblical proof please!!!
---francis on 12/31/11
Hebrews 8:13 old covenant became obsolete,
Acts 15 Apostles recognized that God had accpeted Gentiles and that without conversion to Judaism.
---lee1538 on 1/2/12


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While the early Jewish Christians continued in the Mosaic traditions - festivals, Sabbaths, temple worship, etc. understanding of the Pentecost experience was not yet acquired.
--lee1538 on 12/31/11

Biblical proof please!!!
---francis on 12/31/11


Samuel //you need to check with Martin Luther, John Calvin and John Wesley and see what they say about the Sabbath being a moral commandment.

Unlike your view that Ellen White was infallible, I do not recognize any teacher the Lord has given to His church as infallible.

As to the Sabbath being changed to Sunday, I do not see the observance of any day being commanded in Scripture for the church.

While the early Jewish Christians continued in the Mosaic traditions - festivals, Sabbaths, temple worship, etc. understanding of the Pentecost experience was not yet acquired.

NO I do not view you or others as children of Satan, but I believe your understanding of some of the basics of the Christian faith is lacking.
---lee1538 on 12/31/11


Francis //Here is an example of a church who thought only the principle was important:

NO, you are making assertions not found in the text.

What was being violated was not only the law but the principle behind the law as well.
--lee1538 on 12/29/

LOL LOL LOL
you make my point!!!!
---francis on 12/30/11


Lee you need to check with Martin Luther, John Calvin and John Wesley and see what they say about the Sabbath being a moral commandment.

After all you are always saying we should listen to the great men of church history.

The Roman Catholic Church established the First day Sabbath as a moral law. The puritans did also. These and many others saw the Sabbath as a principal.

In the SDA hymnal we have a song written about the wecoming of Sabbath tha was written over 100 years before we existed.
---Samuel on 12/30/11


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Both.
Both the principle and the observance (application) of the principle are joined at the hip.
Love with all your heart, mind, strenght...
Matthew 15:19 "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:.."

The heart, as seen in that verse, influence the mind and ultimately drive even the hand of man to disobedience of the guiding
principles and non observance (application) of them thereof. Example of non observance:
James 2:16 "And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled, notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body, what doth it profit?"
---Nana on 12/30/11


Francis //Here is an example of a church who thought only the principle was important:

NO, you are making assertions not found in the text.

What was being violated was not only the law but the principle behind the law as well.

Even the Gentiles (pagans - ESV) who did not have the law, found what the man living with his stepmother to be immoral. read Romans 2:14f

And how did the pagans know it to be immoral?

Simply that man being born in God's image has an innate sense of what is morally right and what is morally wrong.

But man having an innate sense of morality had no convictions regarding the observance of a sabbath. Thus the sabbath commandment is NOT a moral law but more liken to a ceremonial law.
---lee1538 on 12/29/11


Rod4Him on 12/29/11
Amen.
---chria9396 on 12/30/11


Here is an example of a church who thought that only the principle was important:

1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife, And ye are puffed up,..Your glorying is not good.

The belief here is that what was done in the flesh was not important, only the principle in the spirit. They were proud to have among them a man who had attained such spirituality

RESULTS: 1 Corinthians 5:11 not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner, with such an one no not to eat.
---francis on 12/29/11


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//...which takes precedence, the actual observance of the law or simply the principle behind the law?//

Obeying the "law" or the "principle," ...This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

The Word doesn't say to walk by the principle.

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
---Rod4Him on 12/29/11


No man can serve two masters--law or grace--either one will hold to one, law, and despise the other, grace, or one will serve grace, the Spirit, and hate the other.
-Rod4Him on 12/28/11
you mean when one accepts the grace of God he is free to kill, steal, commit adultery and dishonour his parents?
GOD FORBID.

1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner, with such an one no not to eat.
---francis on 12/29/11


No man can serve two masters--law or grace
Rod I have to disagree.

Because love has both. Love corrects someone from sinning and grace rescues a sinner from condemnation. Love (noun) allows you to hate the sin (The Law) but love (verb) the sinner (Grace).
---Scott1 on 12/28/11


A story from my pastor. This kid who lived a very hard life started to come to church. Over a few weeks he started to trust in God, gave his life to Christ as savior. However he was still a little ruff around the edges. One day he gave his testimony at church. He did a good job with it except he was wearing a hat. Because of this many of the people did not take to heart his story. OR another one. Pastor spoke and a guy came up to him and said "Pastor that was the beep, beep, beepen (use your imagination) best sermon ever and I need to start doing that." The point is what is most important at the time a changed life or technicality as to observance or principle of the law.
---Scott1 on 12/28/11


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//The argument is the same old argument of liberty verses license.// Exactly..

Another way of saying this is law verses grace. I also suggest that the same principle that applies to money can apply to this. No man can serve two masters--law or grace--either one will hold to one, law, and despise the other, grace, or one will serve grace, the Spirit, and hate the other.
---Rod4Him on 12/28/11


Mark_Eaton//The Apostle Paul said in Gal 5:13 "For you were called to freedom, brethren, only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh..."
---
We have much the same issue reflected in Romans 14:14-16=

I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil.

of course guys like jerry & francis would tell us that Paul was wrong in his views and that if Ellen White was there, she would have been able to set him right.
---lee1538 on 12/28/11


Lee1538:

I see a slippery slope on both sides of this issue.

You have well-documented the slippery slope of the letter of the law by your statement about beating Francis nearly to death without violating the sixth commandment.

However, on the other side of the issue, is the required understanding of the principle or spirit of the Law. Simply say the phrase "judge others" and you can see how wrong understanding clouds these issues.

The Apostle Paul said in Gal 5:13 "For you were called to freedom, brethren, only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh..."

The argument is the same old argument of liberty verses license.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/27/11


The law had a purpose, but that purpose was not to blind obedience but what was behind the law, namely the spirit of the law.

This is what got Jesus in trouble with the Pharisees as he was more concerned with what was behind the law.

The 10 commandments are not really paramount as when they asked Jesus what was the foremost commandment (Mt. 22:36f), He did not even reference the 10 commandments, but replied that one must love the lord and love ones neighbor. In love of ones nieghbor, Romans 13:10 says that we fulfill the law.

As mentioned before, we all can beat the tar out of Francies and not even violate one of the 10 commandments, but if we love him, we do fulfill the law.
---lee1538 on 12/27/11


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Discover > God will have us doing better than we can now understand the law to mean and try to get ourselves to do.

Ones say to do the law, but I don't see know of anyone who does the animal blood sacrifices by fire, and calling for all the death penalties.

For one example of the death penalty > upholding the Sabbath of the law of Moses includes upholding the death penalty for anyone who dishonors the Sabbath by working on the Sabbath > (Exodus 31:14, Numbers 15:32-36). A guy gathered sticks for a fire and he got stoned to death. I know of no one, then, who practices the Sabbath by practicing its death penalty that is in the law of Moses.
---Bill_willa6989 on 12/27/11


In Exodus, God listed the ten rules/laws that needed to be complied with in order to acheive perfection (impossible for a human to do, God was simply showing us WHY we need His promised messiah).

God hasn't told me to be peaceful, but I believe it is His WILL/DESIRE that I should be peaceful, therefore, I comply with His "WILL" by being a peaceful person (I personally feel no need of "commands" or obedience to them...I live the "law of liberty" IN THE SPIRIT of my lord). God wants us to learn "PRINCIPLES".

The "word of God" became flesh (not text) and hung on the cross. It is the "word of TRUTH" that we are to rightly handle.
---more_excellent_way on 12/27/11


The law of the letter kills, it is the Spirit who gives LIFE.

To obey the will of God, you must submit to it, submit to God, Worship Him, Love Him with all of thine heart and soul, repent often.
---anon on 12/26/11


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