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Gulf From Abraham And Hellh

The story is told by Jesus wherein Abraham spoke to the rich man in hell about a "gulf". What do you believe the gulf was? Since they were in the spirit realm, do you think the gulf would've been physical or spirit?

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 ---Leon on 1/6/12
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Jack b, first, I am not a Hyper-calvinist, or a little calvinist. I am a child of God, a believer who doesn't question the Word of God. .
Second, you want me to take time to look up the word "world" in every passage, too much work. It would accomplish nothing. If you have a Wordstudy Bible which gives you the explanation for each word, you can do it yourself, Just remember that the word "World" has many meanings depending where you find it. It is called "Kosmos" in the Grk, and in Heb. the word is "Tevel" found in many places in the Old Testament. You will get lots of information for you to study.
If you have a question on "world" just ask, I will do my best to answer you.
---Mark_V. on 1/17/12


IN THE BIBLE, Jesus said the rich man asked Abraham to send Lazarus, "that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue." (Lk. 16:24) Also, Jesus describes Abraham & Lazarus as being in one place where water is readily available & the rich man being in another apparently dry place: two distinctly different compartments.
Leon

I agree. But if they are dead spirits how can they have physical bodies and be in physical places?

Do you believe as some taught that the Righteous will be able to go enjoy the screams of agony as they picnic in view of them?
---Samuel on 1/17/12


Jack, christan will never SEE all of Romans 9-11. There are TWO kinds of BLINDING. God has blinded the eyes of the Jews until the fulness of the Gentiles have come in, and then All Israel will be saved.

AND

Paul clearly states in Corinthians SATAN has blinded the minds of man UNTIL the preaching of the Gospel opens one's eyes.

GOD did not blind all who are Jews either, as many Jews are saved, and only SOME of the branches were broken off so that the Gentiles could be grafted in. NOWHERE does scripture say God blinded any Gentiles minds. SATAN HAS!!!

If one doesn't udnerstand this...well, what are ya gonna do? One cannot reason with a blind, deaf and dumb person.

.

---kathr4453 on 1/17/12


And I, a 3 point "Calvinist", give scripture as well...which often times go ignored. I am well aware of the 30 or 40 verses HYPER-Calvinists like to repeatedly use. Unfortunately there are over 31000 that paint a picture of a completely different God - one that loves his enemies.

MarkV, you never did answer my question from a week ago. What does the word "kosmos"(Greek) mean to you?

Before you answer please look up every scripture that the word is used in. I eagerly await your response.

Christan, can we please stop with the attitude? You are very defensive I can see. But is that really necessary?
---JackB on 1/17/12


JackB, you accused me of being hostile? Really? You ain't really seen what hostile is and I assure you a Christian is never hostile when he speaks the Truth, just like his brother Jesus Christ. You have been given multiple verses by so many here and you continue to ask for more verses. You're like Pilate when he asked Christ, "What is truth?" when Truth was standing right before his very eyes. Just like the Holy Bible right before your very eyes and you still ask for more verses.

As I believe in the sovereignty of God and His grace 100%, only He can help you. And that He must have loved you before the foundations of the world before He open your eyes and heart to belief His Truth. And He never opened Pilate's.
---christan on 1/17/12




Jack b, God is the Potter and we are the clay, all mankind. Read Romans (9:19-24)clearly, at least begin with (v. 23).
"and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, "Which He had prepared beforehand for glory" Now listen to this next verse, "even "us" (believers) whom He called, not of the Jews only, "but also of the Gentiles"
Did you hear that? Why do you not acknowledge the Truth Jack? And just admit that the Elect, Jews and Gentiles, will be saved, those He prepared beforehand for glory. And to show His wrath and to make His power known, "endured with longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for distruction"
---Mark_V. on 1/17/12


Idk what hypocrisy you speak of. I just asked for scripture proving that God blinds GENTILES after the ascension of Christ. Scripture says the Jews are blind, but it says nothing about God blinding the Gentiles. Do you have any scripture or is it just your personal belief based on a few other things you've read and interpreted differently?

Ive noticed your demeanor lately has been a tad hostile.
---JackB on 1/16/12


ATTENTION ALL BLOGGERS WHO'VE RUDELY GONE OFF TOPIC ON THIS BLOG!!! Please take your fight elsewhere. You're wasting comments space here for folk who may want to address the "gulf" subject. Thank you!!!
---Leon on 1/16/12


JackB, the Holy Bible speaks to all mankind, be it the Jews or the Gentiles. What is true is the nation of Israel were the chosen people of God in whom He revealed His oracles unto them, but did everyone belief?

Your statement wreaks with hypocrisy when you ask, "...that any GENTILE after the time of Christs ascension has been kept in unbelief by God?" The answer is MULTITUDES! Tell me what population of the world (filled with Gentiles) tells you they belief in Jesus Christ? There's almost 7 billion people, take your pick!

We are post-Jesus Christ and you only have to look at yourself to find the answer you so hypocritically ask.
---christan on 1/16/12


Christan, what part of Romans 9 (or any other scripture) says that any GENTILE after the time of Christs ascension has been kept in unbelief by God? Just one example would be perfect. The ball is in your court.

If I'm wrong then Ive caused no harm because nothing will stop an elect from getting saved. If you're wrong, you are leading people away from Christ because you have put doubt in their mind as to whether or not Jesus died for them at all. How will you explain that to the Lord Jesus Christ on the final day?

Be very careful that you don't fall into the category of those false teachers who "deny the very Lord who bought them" 2 Peter 2:1
---JackB on 1/16/12




"Are you calling God a liar when He says "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked"? You accuse him of sending people there for his own pleasure." JackB

It is true that God does not desire the death of the wicked. But that does not mean He has not willed the wicked to die in their sins and be sent to hell. When you quote Ezekiel 33:11, remember Proverbs 16:4, "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Are the prophets contradicting one another? Far be from it, NO!

It's your unbelief in God's Sovereignty and His declaration that He has made for Himself "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" as taught by Paul in Romans 9.
---christan on 1/15/12


"If the Luke parable is about a spiritual place then how did they have tounges and fingers that could touch water?

Also compartments in hell is from Greek Mythology it is not found in the Bible.
---Samuel on 1/15/12


Yet, there the rich man is, in hell, & his spirit/soul is thirsty. How do you explain that Samuel?

IN THE BIBLE, Jesus said the rich man asked Abraham to send Lazarus, "that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue." (Lk. 16:24) Also, Jesus describes Abraham & Lazarus as being in one place where water is readily available & the rich man being in another apparently dry place: two distinctly different compartments.
---Leon on 1/15/12


ATTENTION ALL BLOGGERS WHO'VE RUDELY GONE OFF TOPIC ON THIS BLOG!!! Please take your fight elsewhere. You're wasting comments space here for folk who may want to address the "gulf" subject. Thank you!!!
---Leon on 1/15/12


All people need the power of the HOLY SPIRIT and Grace to repent. Fortunatly it is the job of the HOLY SPIRIT to convict the world of sin and judgement. So all people will be convicted.

If the Luke parable is about a spiritual place then how did they have tounges and fingers that could touch water?

Also compartments in hell is from Greek Mythology it is not found in the Bible.
---Samuel on 1/15/12


Jack, I've mentioned that no one comes to Christ on his own power or ability, they don't want to seek God. (Rom. 3:9-12 "...None is righteous, no not one, no one understands, no one seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong, no one does good, not even one"
When you say there is some, you disagree with Scripture and you are agreeing with the RCC on works for salvation. Maybe not in their doctrines, but on the ability of man to seek God on his own ability. That is what is called works for salvation. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:44). We have to be drawn by God's grace and given faith to believe.
---Mark_V. on 1/14/12


aka, This is what I don't get about your argument,
You believe that John's gospel is inspired by Christ.
John said man has not seen God (4.20)
Either John lied or was not inspired. (No rhetoric)
Ex 33.11 says "God SPOKE to Moses face to face" he did NOT see God all they saw was a pillar of smoke! Now fess up he did not see him as you stated! Don't cut and run!
---1st_cliff on 1/14/12


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Cliff, the attack on Christ is always in His human nature. Your questions are always concerning what He said when He was present. You never considered His Divine nature. Which says, you do not believe in been born of the Spirit, because if you did, you would understand the Divine nature of Christ, like Nicodemus, who didn't understand a person needed to be born of the Spirit. You recognize the physical birth of Christ just as you only recognize the physical birth of humans. Could be because you don't believe Scripture or only some parts. Jesus did have a Godly nature,
"Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary they wife, for "that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 1:20).
---Mark_V. on 1/14/12


So you call Christ a liar when He declared, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."Christan

Nope Im not. Im saying we interpret that verse in different ways. Ive noticed that neither you or Mark can say WHEN a person is born again. Scripture shows it is when we receive the Spirit of Christ. People call upon the name of Jesus without being "reborn". What do you think they are crying out for? They want to BE reborn of the Spirit based on what Christ has done for us.

Are you calling God a liar when He says "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked"? You accuse him of sending people there for his own pleasure.
---JackB on 1/14/12


Gordon: The problem I have with your analogy is no one goes "physically" into heaven or hell when they die. Spirit/souls of believers in heaven await the resurrection & inhabitation of their earthly, incorruptible physical bodies. Likewise, the spirit/souls of lost (unbelievers) are raised, in judgment, in their physically corrupt bodies.

No Sir ~ the gulf really is a spiritual separation (an unbridgeable divide) between lost souls & God! :)
---Leon on 1/13/12


enough first cliff...you and i speakenglish but we do not speak the same language. it does not matter what i say. iit matters what the word is. (to you...some is inspired and some is just good literature. of cours, what you say is from the inspired part.)

your airtight argument started with quoting Jesus of something that he never said. then, you say that moses did not see God face to face even though the scriptures say they did.

if you deny that it does, you are just repeating developed rhetoric from another source.

there is no need to say that it is me who repeats somebody else's teaching. so, be it.

a few reconcile, many don't.
---aka on 1/13/12


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Ruben, you are just as ignorant and stiff-necked as the Jews were, even worse when you profess to be a Christian and say you believe. Here's why:

There's a consequence when the sinner RECEIVE the precious gift of FAITH from God. It WILL cause the sinner to repent toward God and believe in His Son Jesus Christ. He then becomes justified by FAITH from God.

You interpret Luke 18:9-14 out of context and give the impression that should anyone repent without believing in Jesus Christ and more importantly without that precious gift from God called FAITH, God is obligated to forgive him. When one is not justified by God's FAITH, their repentance will be proven to be false. And that, only God knows.
---christan on 1/13/12


"But without faith it is impossible to please him" Hebrews 11:6. Even the Jews who do not believe in Christ will tell you they repent, are they forgiven by God?

--christan on 1/12/12

Only God knows thier hearts, if they truly from thier hearts ask for forgiveness, then yes it can happen!

In Luke 18:9-14 it gives us a idea:

" But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, "God, have mercy on me, a sinner. I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted"'"
---Ruben on 1/13/12


"Man has never lost the ability to change his mind. What he does not have is the power to stick with it. That is where our Savior comes in." JackB

So you call Christ a liar when He declared, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." and not to mention Paul in Ephesians, "And you hath he quickened, who WERE DEAD in trespasses and sins."

The Savior and His apostle Paul, according to you were then speaking lies about the state of the man's spirit, right? Are you a prophet speaking words of light or darkness? According to Christ and Paul, I think it's darkness of the deepest kind.
---christan on 1/13/12


Showing Eze 33:14-18 and implying that the man can repent on their own without grace from God is what I understand from your posting, which is false. Correct me if I am wrong in assuming this.
---christan on 1/12/12


Man has never lost the ability to change his mind. What he does not have is the power to stick with it. That is where our Savior comes in.
---JackB on 1/13/12


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Forget the gulf between the rich man in hell and the poor man, Eloy has the answer to everything. He has the mind of Christ and knows the past, present and future. No one else has made that claim until now.
"Seeing in the spirit is seeing things that transcend the natural senses. Having the miind of Christ I can see things into the past and present and things that will also happen in the future, and I can see things that are happening at different locations then where I am statically positoned in the body"
He can see you right now, so please answer correctly.
---Mark_V. on 1/13/12


aka, **some would realize...came a little later**
His apostles were constant close followers for 3 1/2 years they knew exactly who He was, so I think you're not saying that they are the "some" here,right?
Sounds like you only see God if you recognize Him? Is that what you're saying?
It was God who said "No man can see Me and live" Ex 33.20.
---1st_cliff on 1/13/12


Christian, I've said all I'm going to say to you. God bless you.
---John.usa on 1/12/12


I believe that the Gulf was physical. Before the Resurrection of the Lord, the Saints went to Paradise at Death. And, at that time, Paradise was in Hell. There was a Tormenting section of Hell, and then, there was the Paradise side. Later on, when Saints died, as when they die to this day, they go directly up to the Third Heaven. Where the Heavenly Kingdom and the Mansions of the Saints are (as per JOHN 14:1-3). That way, there is now more room in the Hell of Torments. The Bible says that Hell enlarges itself all the time.
---Gordon on 1/12/12


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I simply asked Leon which bible translation he figured was God's "Divinely inspired"
---1st_cliff on 1/12/12

and i simply asked you.
---aka on 1/12/12


"Scripture tells us what happens to the wicked if they repented..." Ruben

It is true when a sinner repents to God, he will be forgiven. But ah, let's not forget that for God to forgive the sinner's repentance, he MUST first receive God's gift call FAITH. "But without faith it is impossible to please him" Hebrews 11:6. Even the Jews who do not believe in Christ will tell you they repent, are they forgiven by God?

You're a Christian (at least that's what you confess), so why do you preach only half-a-Gospel? Showing Eze 33:14-18 and implying that the man can repent on their own without grace from God is what I understand from your posting, which is false. Correct me if I am wrong in assuming this.
---christan on 1/12/12


John.usa, wow, what a big word to use, "pernicious". According to you then, Jesus must have been "pernicious" when He declared,

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." John 8:44

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you" John 16:16, "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me, for they are thine." John 17:9
---christan on 1/12/12


//hundreds of people saw Jesus!//

but, just because they saw Jesus did not mean that they would recognize him as God the rock of salvation.

when some of them would realize He is who he said he was came a little later.
---aka on 1/12/12


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I believe the Bible we have is the Word of GOD. I also know that it was written by Men inspired by GOD.

Now there are two main ways to look at this. The first is Verbal inspiration that GOD gave the words to the writers. Down through ages the original manuscripts were copied and recopied and small mistakes came it which make no true differences.

The other is that inspired men wrote down the ideas of GOD in their language and these ideas can be understood by men as the HOLY SPIRIT leads them in studying the words. Small mistakes and diffeneces in translations are all minor. What counts is the overall teaching.

So my Bible is any decent translation. I use several.
---Samuel on 1/12/12


Mark, I do respect you and your views, even as we don't agree. I have given biblical references for my position. It's okay if we disagree. God bless.
---John.usa on 1/12/12


Solomon's declaration that "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.", their souls and spirit will be thrown into hell.

---christan on 1/11/12

Scripture tells us what happens to the wicked if they repented:

" 14 Again, when I say to the wicked, You shall surely die, if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 16 None of his sins which he has committed shall be remembered against him, he has done what is lawful and right, he shall surely live.(EZE 33:14-18)
---Ruben on 1/12/12


Johnusa, that is your problem, you want to present something and when people answer you with the Word of God you get up and run. I know what you believe already since you already told me. You believe God is going to save every single person who has lived. We know that, and to make you open your eyes, we give you the Word of God which is the only Word that can. But so many people like you reject the Word. And the Word of God tells us they were appointed to do that from the foundation of the world. Did God force you to reject the Word? No. Did He forced you to believe it? No. Did God know you would, Yes, He is God.
---Mark_V. on 1/12/12


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I'm sorry, Christian. Your doctrine is pernicious. I'm through discussing it with you. You go ahead and discuss it with others. Anyone who would create a living being solely for the purpose of torturing it forever just to make himself look more powerful isn't worth my time or anyone else's.
---John.usa on 1/12/12


"Is it really that hard to believe the Word of God?
---christan on 1/11/12"


Unfortunately, it really is "that hard" for people who work overtime as devout unbelievers. There's a great self-willed gulf (separation) between them & God, & there's no explaining anything to them. Everything you say, they surmise. is just "crap". :)

Unbelievers are wise "only" in their eyes. All believers can do is point them towards God's given resource (the Bible, WORD) then hope & pray they'll want to apply it to their life, & thereby bridge the insurmountable gap (GULF) ~ spirit disconnect ~ wherein they lack (to their detriment) understanding, knowledge: God's true wisdom.
---Leon on 1/12/12


John.usa, I am not seeking for you to concede to me or what I say. I am merely showing you Scriptural backing to your unbelief of what is declared in the Holy Bible.

When you say, "...since that makes God more like Herod than like Jesus." Let me correct you here. First of all, you must understand the difference between who God is and who Herod is when you make such "comparison".

God is a creator and not a created being like Herod. He is eternal and more importantly HOLY, HOLY, HOLY. Herod on the other is a creature of God and not eternal, more importantly a sinner before God Almighty.

See the difference? Two separate entities.
---christan on 1/12/12


Christian, okay, I'll concede you are right about everything. And we'll just go on from there. It is too bad you are right, though, since that makes God more like Herod than like Jesus.
---John.usa on 1/11/12


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aka, This is where your argument gets a little slippery, It was Jesus that emptied Himself (according to Paul in Ephesians) and took on human form ,not His Father of whom Paul said did not think of robbing God by being equal!
It's God who has never been seen, hundreds of people saw Jesus!
I simply asked Leon which bible translation he figured was God's "Divinely inspired"
---1st_cliff on 1/12/12


John.usa - did I judge myself to not be a reprobate? I merely said, would a reprobate acknowledge... and if you're trying to corner me to say something you want to hear, try harder.

You claim to be a Christian, so you should have "spiritual heart, eyes and ears". You should not have any problems in Solomon's declaration that "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.", ie that God has in His plan and will, that He will predestined such to be born into this world and when they die, their souls and spirit will be thrown into hell.

Is it really that hard to believe the Word of God?
---christan on 1/11/12


//God is the sole author of His divinely inspired bible// cliff1

what bible are you referring to? no arguments will follow, i just want to know to what you refer.
---aka on 1/11/12


from the trinity blog that was closed.

cliff1 -

//He really is,those who saw God saw him in a form He took on Himself temporarily fot the occasion.//

That is what we have been trying to tell you. God took on a human form temporarily in Jesus Christ

//If John's word (!Jn.4.20) and God's word (EX 33.20)is not sufficient then neither is mine!//

John's word and God's Word is sufficient for me (all of it in context).
---aka on 1/11/12


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Leon, Instead of crapping on me why don't you just answer the question??
---1st_cliff on 1/11/12


Cliff: "A fool's lips enter into contention, & his mouth calls for strokes. A fool's mouth is his destruction, & his lips are the snare of his soul." (Pv. 18:6-7)

You are very much like the rich man in the "parable". The root cause of your whole problem is you've chosen to separate yourself from God by way of a chasm (gulf) of unbelief in His written word. You have an unbelievably serious Bible disconnect there.

Like the rich man couldn't understand Abraham, you can't possibly understand my stand. I pity you.
---Leon on 1/11/12


Leon, There's an old adage that goes "Where ignorance is bliss 'tis folly to be wise"
**I "actually" believe that God is the sole author of His divinely inspired bible**
Since there are no two versions exactly alike, which "bible" are you referring to?
Taking into account that God did not preserve any original manuscripts,and there are no two identical ones!
Even the KJV has errors!
(too many to list)
On what do you base your stand??
---1st_cliff on 1/10/12


Dear Christian I see you follow the doctrine of John Calvin. You have the right to do that.

I disagree though along with millions of other Christians with the Tulip teaching that you outlined of Calvin.

This has nothing to do with this discussion.
---Samuelbb7 on 1/10/12


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Christian, why do you think you are not yourself a reprobate?
---John.usa on 1/10/12


"You actually believe your bible is exactly as originally written????
---1st_cliff on 1/8/12"


Unlike you Cliff, I "actually" believe God is the sole Author of His divinely inspired Bible. I furthermore believe there's nothing you, I or anyone else can do to the Bible (past, present or future) that can change (alter) its Divine content & intent, i.e., keep God's will from being done through it. I rest in that knowledge & hope you'll find the same peace sooner than later. :)
---Leon on 1/10/12


John.usa, I did respond to your question if you really spent some time reading it. You only "assume" I didn't but let me give to you again in simplicity. Do you really think a reprobate ever acknowledges:

- the sovereignty of God that He has elected before the foundations of the world whom He will save?
- that Jesus Christ only died for those (the elect) whom His Father has given to Him?
- that God has created reprobates for His Holy purpose of demonstrating His wrath?
- that God does not love everyone He created?
- that everything happens according to God's will and purpose, aka predestined?

So? What do you think?
---christan on 1/10/12


Christian, you didn't respond to my question. You are assuming I directly denied your assertion. I didn't. And I asked how you know you weren't a reprobate, which you didn't answer.
---John.usa on 1/9/12


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Jesus wasn't giving a parable in the context. he was literally telling where Old Testament saints and sinners went when they died. Abraham's bosom was the place in the underworld where Old Testament Saints went when they died. The other side was for those who OT nonbelievers.
---Rickey on 1/9/12


John.usa, first of all, there's no "IF" God creates reprobates. I'm witnessing to you according to Solomon's declaration, "The LORD hath made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4

There, are you disappointed that I am shouting at the top of the roof that God has created reprobates and there are no "IFs"? And if I am a reprobate like you say, God Almighty be praised and glorified, for "He has done as He pleased with His creation and His will be done on earth as in heaven."

Can you or will you even acknowledge that God has created reprobates as declared in the Scriptures? I think not.
---christan on 1/9/12


Mark, I have no argument at all with your last posted response to me.
---John.usa on 1/8/12


Johnuse, God does not create sin in people. They sin because they love to sin. Why can you not get that? Don't you sin because you want to sin? Does God make you sin? Does He tell people to murder children if they want? He chose to create all people. He chose to love His children. But does He make people sin? No. People are not willing to stop sinning. That is why they have no free will. They are not willing. They are inslave to sin. If people had free will, they would have no desire to sin, for free is free indeed. Their will's would be free from any desire. We are told that everyone who is born is condemned already. If it was not for God, no one would be saved because all have sinned against God.
---Mark_V. on 1/8/12


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It's a proven fact that if fundamentalists don't like the message ,they shoot the messenger!
Notice that all those dissenters never refute the facts but attack the "person".
Everything I wrote is true,just doesn't fit in with their superstitious beliefs!
Contrary to your assumptions I believe wholeheartedly in the "word of God" but if you can't separate the word of God from some one else's word,then it's no wonder you're mixed up!
---1st_cliff on 1/8/12


Christian/Leon : The Interpreter's Dictionary of The Bible, a book written to prove the validity of the New Testament says "A study of 150 Greek (manuscripts) of the gospel of Luke has revealed more than 30,000 different readings, it's safe to say that there is not one sentence in the New testament in which the (manuscript) is wholly uniform"!
You actually believe your bible is exactly as originally written????
---1st_cliff on 1/8/12


Christian, if God creates reprobates, then it's His doing and we can't find fault with Him, or them... And how are you so sure you yourself aren't a reprobate? :)
---John.usa on 1/7/12


"...He very likely had a good knowledge of Greco-Roman mythology!
---1st_cliff on 1/7/12"


Of course John, Cliff's unregenerated beliefs more than adequately proves my point.
---Leon on 1/7/12


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"It's amazing that the fundamentalists only have this flimsy evidence to point to ,to support their theory of life after death! Luke wrote this some 30 years after Christ's ascension,giving Matthew plenty of time to include this very weighty (parable?) since he wrote around 41CE!" 1st cliff

You just continue to add-on to your unbelief in the Word of God with every blog you write. Clearly demonstrating that God did create reprobates for the very purpose of destruction as taught by Paul in Romans 9:21-23. For now, you're the living testimony of Paul's teaching for us to see and acknowledge God's mercy shown only to His people.
---christan on 1/7/12


Cluny, If you read my post there is already "proof"
It's amazing that the fundamentalists only have this flimsy evidence to point to ,to support their theory of life after death!
Luke wrote this some 30 years after Christ's ascension,giving Matthew plenty of time to include this very weighty (parable?) since he wrote around 41CE!
64 of the 66 books written by Jewish writers and 2 by a Greek Gentile??? He knew more about the "after life" than the Apostles who walked with Jesus 3 1/2 years??
He very likely had a good knowledge of Greco-Roman mythology!
---1st_cliff on 1/7/12


"...we all recognize some parts of scripture, and blow off other parts or at least ignore them, if they don't fit well within our own scheme of things.
---John.usa on 1/7/12"


Yes "some", NOT ALL, do this. Therein lies the rub! Religious opinions expressed here come loaded down with all kinds of personal biases & hidden agendas.

It's my conviction that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God...". (2 Tim. 3:16-17) God wrote the Bible & used Holy Spirit filled men to pen it. Obviously, not all CN bloggers believe that. There's "THE GULF ", i.e., UNBELIEF, an insurmountable spiritual disconnect (breach) with the whole canon of God's Holy Scripture.
---Leon on 1/7/12


Seeing in the spirit is seeing things that transcend the natural senses. Having the miind of Christ I can see things into the past and present and things that will also happen in the future, and I can see things that are happening at different locations then where I am statically positoned in the body. Therefore seeing the location of the rich man tormented in hell, and of Lazarus in Braham's bosom, was a physical dimension that was being seen remotely by Christ whom is able to transcend his static location in the body. In otherwords, those with the mind of Christ are able to see into diverse places other than only where we are presently located.
---Eloy on 1/7/12


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It is both . . . "physical" distance, because of spiritual condition . . . like a quarantine > here is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience," Paul says in Ephesians 2:2. This spirit of selfishness is nasty. So, God has Hell for His holding place to keep the filthy smelly stuff of selfishness away from Heaven where we have the fragrance and melody of Jesus and His love (Ephesians 5:19, 2 Corinthians 2:14-16).
---Bill_willa6989 on 1/7/12


If we are really honest with ourselves, even the most orthodox among us, we will find that we all recognize some parts of scripture, and blow off other parts or at least ignore them, if they don't fit well within our own scheme of things.
---John.usa on 1/7/12


You guys, i.e., Cluny "jumping to" & Cliff "wrong conclusions"!!!

Jumping to conclusions is a type of negative thinking pattern, known as cognitive distortions. Cognitive distortions are habitual and faulty ways of thinking that are common among people who struggle with depression and anxiety.

You hope it's an allegory John. :)
---Leon on 1/7/12


show me two or three witnesses from the bible that say michael is the christ.
---aka on 1/7/12


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Gee Moderator! "Gulf From Abraham and Hellh"? How about, Was the Gulf Physical or Spirit? I'm not feeling any love here! :)
---Leon on 1/7/12


Leon, the story of the rich man is a parable. The beggar was the only character in any of Jesus parables ever given a name (Lazarus) not the Lazarus of in John 11 who died at a later time. Some therefore have speculated that this was no imaginary tale, but an actual incident that really took place, either way Jesus employs His parable as all other to teach a lesson, and in this case for the benefit of the Pharisees. The gulf is a spiritual one as Cluny has stated. And cliff wanted witnesses, and as we know, Luke was not an eyewitness, but wrote from eyewitnesses. Not something he himself witness.
---Mark_V. on 1/7/12


One must remember that the kingdom of heaven and hell is a "spiritual place", presently cannot be seen by the eyes of man while they are alive in this world. However, when they die, they will either be sent to Paradise (where only God's people are found) and Hades (where only the reprobates will go).

God uses the physical things of this world for our finite minds to understand that this "spiritual gulf" spoken of by Christ is what separates the kingdom of heaven and hell. Once the soul and spirit gets there, it's impossible for any soul and spirit to cross-over or get out, let alone return to this world in the form of "spirits" or as pagans call, "ghost".
---christan on 1/7/12


\\Leon:Tell me what proof you have that this "story" was told by Jesus!
\\

What proof do you have that JEsus did NOT?

Or do you pick and choose what parts of the Bible you believe?

Glory to Jesus Chris!
---Cluny on 1/6/12


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Leon:Tell me what proof you have that this "story" was told by Jesus!
Written by a non-apostle Greek Gentile who never met Christ and with no backing by any other bible writer!
At the mouth of two or three witnesses will a thing be established!(paraphrase)
If you have no proof , why do you believe it?
---1st_cliff on 1/6/12


The story is an allegory, so the gulf is also allegorical. :)
---John.usa on 1/6/12


Obviously, "gulf" or "chasm" (depending on which translation you use) is an earthly image for a spiritual reality.

Could you not tell?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/6/12


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