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Explain Romans 3:31

Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." Exactly how do we 'establish' the law? Consider the context!

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 ---lee1538 on 1/9/12
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Samuel //We do not disregard the Council we just disagree on your interpretation of what it means.

It is not a lie at all that the Jerusalem council did NOT mandate observance of the Jewish Sabbath or the dietary law or any law that was strictly Jewish to Gentile believers.

Guys like Francis and Jerry think that they did.

As much as you must hate it, the observance of Sunday was the norm by 135 AD - a mere 60 years after the Cross and the only way that could have happen is that the Apostles and their immediate successor did not teach Sabbath observance.
---lee1538 on 1/23/12


Warwick //Paul obviously did not include the Commandments concerning our attitude to God in the Commandment which summarizes our attitude to men. i.e. in Romans 13:9-10

Your reasoning is as faulty as ever and to the say least, totally unconvincing. Your problem is that you are a true legalist that believes one is justified by the law but you really do not even realize that of yourself.
---lee1538 on 1/23/12


Dear Lee

You have enough points to disagree with us as Seventh day Adventist without telling lies.

We do not disregard the Council we just disagree on your interpretation of what it means. We teach you must be Born Again to become part of the Kingdom of GOD which includes all of his followers from Adam to today. Not that there is two means of salvation.

Instead of explaing the verse you attack with lies. Why?
---Samuel on 1/23/12


Dear Jim

Keeping the commandments is showing we love. What right do we have to boast for just returning the overwhelming Love of GOD that he showed to us in the life, death and resurrection of JESUS?

Keeping the commandments is our duty. It gains us nothing it is only doing what we are supposed to be doing.
Luke 17:10

Should people live in sin and then say they are delived to live in sin. Read Galations 5 and 6.
---Samuel on 1/23/12


Wrong again Lee. You need to stop imposing your wishes upon Scripture.

In Matthew 22:36-40 Jesus says the whole Law and the Prophets are summed up in the first and great Commandment regarding loving God. And the second Commandment loving our fellow man. Do you notice, not only the 10 Commandments but the whole Law and the Prophets.

Paul in Romans 13:9,10 discusses only the second Commandment Jesus mentioned, that which sums up the proper attitude towards our fellow man. Do not murder,steal, covet, not mentioning adultery, false testimony, honouring parents. Paul obviously did not include the Commandments concerning our attitude to God in the Commandment which summarizes our attitude to men.
---Warwick on 1/23/12




//Because when you do your own thing, like eat swine which God said not to eat, this is a violating of the first commandment: THOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER gods before me.

You really should join the circus and earn money as a clown.

No one here that claims to be a Christian worships swine, not do they believe there are food restrictions imposed on Christians. Those things were tenets ONLY of Judaism alone and never commanded of Christians in the Bible nor taught in early church history.

Unfortunately Adventists reject the decisions of the Jerusalem Council Acts 15 and teach one becomes a convert to Judaism upon beieving in Christ.

Worst you try to impose on the church selective laws given only to the nation of Israel.
---lee1538 on 1/23/12


francis.....

You say:"Not ALONE but abstaining from SIN ( keeping the commandments) Is part of a changed life"

Is this what you are going to boast about when you stand in front of Almighty God. "you kept the commamdments"?
---JIM on 1/23/12


Warwick-//As Paul does not signify what he means by "whatever other commandments there may be" it is your assumption he is referring to Commandments regarding our attitude towards God. Sloppy reasoning Lee.
---
Again while I take the scripture for what it says, you try hard hard hard to make it say something else. We had the same problem with you when you ASSUMED that the creation days had to be of 24 hour duration. I believe what the Bible says, NOT what it does not say.

Sloppy reasoning on your part!
---lee1538 on 1/23/12


Lee, wrong again!

Jesus was asked "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law? And he said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets." Jesus says the Commandments are summed up (not replaced) by these 2, not just 1 you would have us believe.

As Paul does not signify what he means by "whatever other commandments there may be" it is your assumption he is referring to Commandments regarding our attitude towards God. Sloppy reasoning Lee.
---Warwick on 1/22/12


Why do you limit sin to a violation of the ten commandments? ---lee1538 on 1/22/12

Because when you do your own thing, like eat swine which God said not to eat, this is a violating of the first commandment: THOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER gods before me.
So we then make ourselves our own god by violating God's command not to eat swine
---francis on 1/22/12




Warwick//Paul did not mention those other Commandments which concern our relationship with God.
------
WRONG AS USUAL!!!!

Note the phrase "whatever other commandment there may be".

One loves God by the way one treats others.

Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Mt.25,40

To know God and to be born of His Spirit is to love Him for God's love is in you.
---lee1538 on 1/22/12


Warwick //That you would say you can assault your neighbour shows you do not have a clue.
---
Get real!

You can observe the 10 commandments totally and be abusive to your neighbor. And that is the problem with the SDA theory one develops Christain character by observing the 10 commandments. They alone are insufficient for the Christian life.

Face it, the Pharisees were the world's foremost commandment keepers but they did not make much impression with the Lord.

If you were a born of God's Spirit you would have a clue.
---lee1538 on 1/22/12


Lee Romans 13:9,10 reads 'The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." "Summed up" and "fulfillment" but supercedes nowhere to be seen.

Note the above quoted Commandments concern only our treatment of our fellow man, our neighbours. Paul did not mention those other Commandments which concern our relationship with God.

That you would say you can assault your neighbour shows you do not have a clue.
---Warwick on 1/22/12


Eph 5:8-10

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth,) Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

We dont fulfill the law to save ourselves. We do it out of love for God for what He has done for us thru Christ (Romans 12:1) and show the world the lifestyle that is acceptable to God. The law does not "save" us. The law can only condemn us!
---JackB on 1/22/12


//Not ALONE but abstaining from SIN ( keeping the commandments) Is part of a changed life. Proof that one is a child of God

Why do you limit sin to a violation of the ten commandments? Sin may be a violation of law such as lighting a fire in your home on the sabbath. Exodus 35:3

Clearly, most clearly as Romans 13:9-10 points out, all the commandments whatever they may be are fullfilled simply by loving ones neighbor. For in that, one will not steal, murder, commit adultery, or abuse his neighbor.

But what does the 4th commandment have to do with love of neighbor? If you answered nothing, you got the right answer.
---lee1538 on 1/22/12


"No. I used those scriptures to show that if one beleives in Jesus then turns to a life of sin he will not be saved." francis

Then Obviously you haven't experienced salvation by grace through faith in Christ. You underestimate that a Christian doesn't struggle with his sins. To you, struggling with sin is not good enough.

A classic account that contradicts your erroneous self-righteous understanding is from Nehemiah 13:26, "Did not Solomon king of Israel sin by these things? Yet among many nations there was no king like him, who was beloved of his God, and God made him king over all Israel. Nevertheless pagan women caused even him to sin."

According to you, Solomon should be in Hades, right?
---christan on 1/22/12


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Warwick //Jesus was asked "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law? And he said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.

And you can couple this with Romans 13:9-10 that love of neighbor & of God supercedes the Old Testament 10 commandments.

As I stated, the 10 commandments has little or nothing to do with love of neighbor as I can kick the daylight out of Francis and not be found violating any of the big 10.
---lee1538 on 1/22/12


I would pity the poor fella that thinks obedience to the ten commandments alone is a good measure of proof of ones salvation.
---lee1538 on 1/21/12
Not ALONE but abstaining from SIN ( keeping the commandments) Is part of a changed life. Proof that one is a child of God

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
---francis on 1/22/12


Lee, Jesus was asked "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law? And he said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."

I think kicking people about is a no no.

Do not the above commandments sumarize how God would have us live? Then if we are truly saved will not the fruitage be a life lived within these commandments? This is exactly what James is saying that it is easy to say I have faith but it is by our works that the reality of our faith is shown.
---Warwick on 1/21/12


Warwick//"Salvation is all of grace and NOT of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments." Isn't this exactly what James says, that works are the proof of salvation, not its cause.

I would pity the poor fella that thinks obedience to the ten commandments alone is a good measure of proof of ones salvation.

Frankly Warwick, as I stated before, I could kick the daylight out of the likes of Francis and not violate a single commandment found in the Decalogue.
---lee1538 on 1/21/12


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Francis, all you do is show from Ezekiel 18:26, Hebrews 10:26 and 2 Peter 2:20 to justify what you think a man is able to perform to be righteous.
---christan on 1/21/12
No. I used those scriptures to show that if one beleives in Jesus then turns to a life of sin he will not be saved.

francis, The first passage (Ezek. 18:26) is talking about man's own righteousness not the imputed righteousness of Christ, He had not died yet.
---Mark_V. on 1/21/12
Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD, and he counted it to him for righteousness.

James 2:23 Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:

He received the IMPUTED righteousness of Christ although Jesus had not died yet.
---francis on 1/21/12


Francis, all you do is show Sfrom Ezekiel 18:26, Hebrews 10:26 and 2 Peter 2:20 to justify what you think a man is able to perform to be righteous.

Fine, at which point of your life will you reach and be made righteous? What's the standard to attaining righteousness? Are you saying you can reach a point when you become sinless?

You're a works monger through and through and the Scripture rebukes you, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." Galatians 3:10,11
---christan on 1/21/12


Lee, you wrote, "Grace to the Adventists is simply a provision that enable one to observe the law and thus merit salvation." But you quoted SDA doctrine "Salvation is all of grace and NOT of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments." Isn't this exactly what James says, that works are the proof of salvation, not its cause.

It is clear Adventists say "Salvation is all of grace and NOT of works", so how can you say they consider works necessary for salvation?
---Warwick on 1/21/12


francis, you have to do better then the passages you gave. The first passage (Ezek. 18:26) is talking about man's own righteousness not the imputed righteousness of Christ, He had not died yet.
Second, ( Heb. 10:26) is not speaking about believers, for (v.39) says,
"But we (believers) are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul"
Third, ( 2 Peter 2:20) is speaking of those spoken of in (v. 18,19). While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption.." In spite of all the empty talk, false teachers entice others to their philosophies by applealing to people on the baser level. Seduction rather then Truth.
---Mark_V. on 1/21/12


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---christan
SEE IT FROM THE BIBLE
Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them, for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning... The dog is turned to his own vomit again,
---francis on 1/20/12


//Ellen G. White also said there will be many Roman Catholic belivers in the New Earth.

True, however if you turn the page you would also read that she believes they are all heading to the lake of fire because they do not observe the Jewish Sabbath or the Jewish dietary law.

SDAs believe that only those who observe all the 10 commandments are Christians. Grace to the Adventists is simply a provision that enable one to observe the law and thus merit salvation.
---lee1538 on 1/20/12


"If you think that because you are saved by grace that you can sin as you like you have another thing comming" francis

Again and again you keep putting your big foot in your mouth.

First of all, when did I ever say that once grace has come to the sinner's heart, he can go forth and sin all he wants? That's the antinomian stance and I so not subscribe to that at all.

Secondly, when you say what you said above, I understand that you are trying to say, if you continue to sin you are going to loose your salvation, right? I conclude that is because you keep hanging that yoke of the law on the Christian neck even after salvation has come to him by grace through faith in Christ. So, elaborate what you mean.
---christan on 1/20/12


francis//If you think that because you are saved by grace that you can sin as you like you have another thing comming.

It's people who make this comment that truley do not understand what it means to be saved by Gods grace. If you did you would not make that statement.
---JIM on 1/20/12
Like Paul right?

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
---francis on 1/20/12


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Ellen G. White also said there will be many Roman Catholic belivers in the New Earth.

The Ten Commandments are based on love. Does GOD qant us to stop loving each other and GOD?
---Samuel on 1/20/12


Salvation is all of grace and NOT of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments."
--lee1538 on 1/20/12
SEE IT IN THE BIBLE AGAIN

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness( SIN), we lie, and do not the truth:
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

YOU CANNOT rejet the commandments of God and claim you have not sinned
---francis on 1/20/12


christan//Paul teaches only about Christ's righteousness being imputed by faith.
---
I believe the following strongly implies that Paul did teach the righteousness of God is imputed to believers.

Romans 3:21-22a But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it- the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.
---lee1538 on 1/20/12


Lee, you have quoted regarding SDA beliefs "Salvation is all of grace and NOT of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments." Just what James says:

2:14 "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?"

Vs 18 "But someone will say, You have faith and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

Vs 26 "For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead". See also vs.20, 22, and 24.

The SDA quote does not say Christians are saved by works (as you falsely claim) but that good works are proof of salvation.
---Warwick on 1/20/12


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While Adventists will claim one is NOT saved by obedience to the law, they do say one is NOT a Christian if you do not observe the law, esp. the Jewish Sabbath.

Article #19 The Law of God, Fundamental Beliefs.

"Salvation is all of grace and NOT of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments."

So neither myself nor Christan is a Christian as only Sabbath keerpers are true Christians.

Adventists hold that the 10 commandments were imposed on the church, especially the Sabbath commandment, but have no NT scripture to support that.

And if you believe Ellen White, if you have communal worship on the Lord's Day you are a Roman Catholic or one of her step children.

---lee1538 on 1/20/12


francis//If you think that because you are saved by grace that you can sin as you like you have another thing comming.

It's people who make this comment that truley do not understand what it means to be saved by Gods grace. If you did you would not make that statement.
---JIM on 1/20/12


---christan on 1/20/12
i saw of lot of qiotes from my post NONE of them said we are saved by keeping the law

I have never said that.

If you think that because you are saved by grace that you can sin as you like you have another thing comming

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
---francis on 1/20/12


"Show me where i have EVER posted that we are saved by obeying the law." francis

You asked for it. Remember these words of yours?

"REVIEW THE LAW" - review all you want, the law only condemns!

"Will a christian be saved if he converts to islam or starts worship idols of Budda. - to begin with, such a person I doubt was even converted by the Holy Spirit!

"IMPARTED RIGHTEOUSNESS is the righteousness given to us by God when we do what is lawful and right." - you are saying God having to reward a sinner for obeying Him - WORKS! Paul teaches only about Christ's righteousness being imputed by faith.
---christan on 1/20/12


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"Show me where i have EVER posted that we are saved by obeying the law." francis

By continuing to be legalistic and even telling us, "Will a christian go to heaven if he rejects the sabbath?" This is salvation by works!

A Christian (aka sinner) is going to heaven because God loves him and elected him in Jesus Christ from eternity. This is 100% sheer grace and nothing to do with obeying the law.

What is true is when he is born of the Spirit, he will repent and believe in Christ. He will desire to obey God's commands because he's already saved and because he loves God. And many a times, he will fail but does that mean he will loose his salvation? Romans 8:28-39 has the answer.
---christan on 1/20/12


francis, finally by your own words, you believe one is "saved" because he obeys the law. ---christan on 1/19/12

STOP RIGHT THERE!!!!!
Show me where i have EVER posted that we are saved by obeying the law.



Francis, If they constently do all those things, then were they ever a real Christian? ---Poppa_Bear on 1/19/12

Psalms 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence, and take not thy holy spirit from me.

David realized that with the sin of adultery not confessed and repented from, that he will lose not only the Holy Ghost, but his salvation

Many cchristians will sin from time to time, those who are after Gods heart will repent and seek forgiveenss
---francis on 1/20/12


francis, finally by your own words, you believe one is "saved" because he obeys the law. Yet the apostle Paul teaches, "for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified",. Have you another Gospel that Paul doesn't? For Paul rebukes, "but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed."

We are literally witnessing and experiencing Paul's warning right here and now in the form of your "perverted gospel".

FYI, when God gave the 10 commandments, He never said obey and your reward is eternal life! Foolish "Galatian"!
---christan on 1/19/12


--christan on 1/19/12
REVIEW THE LAW

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make any graven image, to bow down to
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain,
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother:
Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness.
Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet

Romans 7:7 I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
---francis on 1/19/12


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Francis, If they constently do all those things, then were they ever a real Christian? Did they ever become a new creation in Christ, if so, the Father will take them to the wood shed and help them get back on the right path. If the Father doesn't have that most valuable of talks with them, then the Bible says that they arn't one of His chillins. It seems to be a fare principle to stick by, based on truth and love and Gods grace. As far as this other measuring stick that you may live by, what if every day we worshiped our PC's and the web and every responce on here was saturated in pride? Are we unsaved at this very secont? If we acknowledge that fact, then are we saved again? Is salvation of the Lord, or of us?
In His grip
---Poppa_Bear on 1/19/12


---christan on 1/19/12
A man or woman is married, serves God faithfully for many years, then starts commiting adultery, and never repents. will that man be saved? Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery

Will a christian be saved if he converts to islam? Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Will a christian be saved if he starts worship idols of Budda.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make any graven image, to bow down to

Will a christian go to heaven is he commits murder and does not repent? Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill

Will a christian go to heaven if he rejects the sabbath?
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy
---francis on 1/19/12


Francis, which Christian will condone to sinning willfully after being saved by grace and make the law void? It's an impossible combination! Only an antinomian practice such thoughts. Being justified by God through Faith is what saves the sinner, period. It does not void the law and as Paul says, by Faith in Christ, the Christian upholds the law. That's because Christ came to fulfilled the law on his behalf which was impossible for man to do.

Let me ask you once again, after coming to salvation by Faith in Christ, does the Christian need to obey the law in order not to loose his salvation? And can Satan and his cohorts snatch the Christian from the Father's hand?
---christan on 1/19/12


Francis //Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

Where in the New Testament does it say breaking the Jewish Sabbath or not conforming to the Levitical dietary laws is a sin? Please give NT book, chapter & verse.

If you reference the Old Testament laws, they are only applicable to the Christian if they are found within the New Covenant.

Again, you sin sin sin if you light a fire or travel any distance on the Jewish Sabbath.

Confess, receive Christ as Lord & Savior and He will remove your sins from you. It is only then that you will be able to see the truth as we have tried to explain it to you on this forum.
---lee1538 on 1/19/12


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francis...how tuff it must be going through life not knowing if you have obeyed all the commandents. To think that if you have failed in any area, you would loose you salvation.
How do you have joy in your life living like that?
---JIM on 1/19/12


christan on 1/18/12

SEE IT FROM THE BIBLE
Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them, for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning... The dog is turned to his own vomit again,
---francis on 1/18/12


"all these blogs writen by leej is for one reason only - to do away with these"

Francis, you are like a modern Pharisee. Always wedging the works of the law with God's grace. I do not think that it is Lee's intent or anyone who believe in 100% salvation by grace attempt to do in what you accuse them of doing.

It's your perverted obsession in trying to work the law to be saved that's why you keep harping about the law even after saying you believe in grace (you don't) - when it had only one purposed according to Paul - to make sin known. That's why you believe one can loose his/her salvation if he does not do the law. And that by Scripture definition is WICKED and FOOLISH, insulting God's grace!
---christan on 1/18/12


Having faith in Jesus does not give us occasion to sin / void the law.

Here is a nice verse that puts the two together
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD and the FAITH of Jesus.
---francis on 1/18/12


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Mark 12:30 thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength:
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make any graven image, to bow down to
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain,
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Mark 12:31 Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother:
Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness.
Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet
---francis on 1/18/12


//all these blogs writen by leej is for one reason only

To promote the view found in Scripture that love of neighbor is what fulfills the law.

Romans 13:9-10 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, not kill, not steal, not bear false witness, not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself...: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Of course, Adventists like Francis couldn't see the truth if Jesus were standing in front of them. And such is the plight of the spiritually blind. 2 Cor. 4:4
---lee1538 on 1/18/12


all these blogs writen by leej is for one reason only

to do away with these
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make any graven image, to bow down to
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain,
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother:
Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness.
Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet
---francis on 1/18/12


We have failed. For in whatever sense we take that. We either sit and do nothing, or fail to do enough. In an age where some suggest America is Babylon re-born.
Where it spreads forth across the world, on film and TV, sexual depravity, violence, drugs and use the excuse of it being real to life. Where good people are unfashionable because they are not supposedly good box office. Where vampires and werewolves are quite cool and okay to have as boy and girl friend or even be. Where anti heroes are the norm and not the exception. This is the view America often gives of itself to the world.
Where crops and animals are genetically and chemically altered across the world.
There is a vast difference in mans law and God's I would suggest.
---chris on 1/18/12


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What is wicked is when one says a Christian can loose his/her salvation if he has no good works.
---christan

Christan..I totally agree with that statement.
---JIM on 1/18/12


Amazing how many try to wedge in their filthy works/rags apart from FAITH to answer the simple question posted. The law of God is established only by FAITH in Jesus Christ who fulfilled the demand of the law which was, "The wages of sin is death". Christ fulfilled the law on behalf of His people, period.

It is true only to the Christian elected by grace that God has prepared good works for him/her but it must never be confused with the atonement of Christ at Calvary. Eg, the thief on the cross died without any good works and yet because of his FAITH in Christ, he's in Paradise. That's amazing grace.

What is wicked is when one says a Christian can loose his/her salvation if he has no good works.
---christan on 1/18/12


//Then why did Mary and the other women observe the Sabbath after Jesus died on the cross?
---
Anyone knowledgeable of early church history would tell you that the early church being all Jewish continued in the traditions of Judaism. It took time for the church to be in transition away from its Jewish roots. This all started when Gentile become believers and the church has to decide what they must do to be legitimate. Acts 15
---lee1538 on 1/17/12


//Then why did Mary and the other women observe the Sabbath after Jesus died on the cross?//
---Scott1 on 1/17/12

then, why did David eat the showbread?

why did the apostles pick wheat on the Sabbath?

why did Jesus defend them?
---aka on 1/17/12


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Then why did Mary and the other women observe the Sabbath after Jesus died on the cross?
---Scott1 on 1/17/12


Those that advocate observance of the Jewish Sababth are in the minority as their viewpoint has the least support either from the Bible or from church history.
---lee1538 on 1/16/12
THANK YOU

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and MANY there be which go in thereat:
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it.
---francis on 1/17/12


michael_e//What we really need to help francis understand that not all laws found within the Old Testament are applicable to the believer.//
I was simply responding to Rom 3:31. As for francis, 2Cor 4:3
---

2 Cor. 4:3-4 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

True, as they refuse to learn from the teachers the Lord has given to His church. They really do NOT believe the righteous must live by faith but by the 10 commandments instead.
---lee1538 on 1/16/12


Most people joing sabbath keeping churches and spend the rest of their lives defending their choice.

NO ONE, has ever SINCERELY studied what the BIBLE including the NT has to say about the sabbath, and conclude the christians should not keep the Lord's day, Sunday.

MOODY, John Wesley, Harold Lindsell, John calvin,Dr. E. T. Hiscox, author of the Baptist Manual all concluded that we should keep the sunday sabbath.
---
Those that advocate observance of the Jewish Sababth are in the minority as their viewpoint has the least support either from the Bible or from church history.
---lee1538 on 1/16/12


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Most people joing sunday keeping churches and spend the rest of their lives defending their choice.

NO ONE, has ever SINCERELY studied what the BIBLE including the NT has to say aboutthe sabbath, and conclude the christians should not keep the sabbath

MOODY, John Wesley, Harold Lindsell, John calvin,Dr. E. T. Hiscox, author of the Baptist Manual all concluded that we should keep the sabbath
---Francis on 1/16/12


//lee1538 on 1/16/1 What we really need to help francis understand that not all laws found within the Old Testament are applicable to the believer.//
I was simply responding to Rom 3:31. As for francis, 2Cor 4:3
---michael_e on 1/16/12


There has NEVER been any christian who have studied what the OT and NT says about the ten commandments, and more specifically the sabbath, who has come away saying that christians do not have to keep the ten commandments or and the sabath

IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED
---francis on 1/16/12


michael_e//when we say that you're not under Law, but strictly by faith + nothing, does that mean you throw the Law? No!
Rom 13 Paul says as plain as English can make it. "That when we love our neighbor, as a believer, of course, then we fulfill the Law." We don't cast it out. Can you love someone and break any of those commandments against him? It's impossible. And so love is the fulfilling of the Law.
---

What we really need to help francis understand that not all laws found within the Old Testament are applicable to the believer. For instance, one does not have to marry his unfruitful and dead brothers wife, nor does one have to observe the old Jewish Sabbath. These laws have nothing to do with love of neighbor.
---lee1538 on 1/16/12


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Doing right. The Law was made for man, not man for the Law. When rules and regulations are established and instituted, it is for the purpose of the unlawful to be corrected thereby: but for them already law-abiding by nature, they have no need for the law to command them, "Be good and obey the law", because they are already fulfilling this law. Whenever people use their liberty to disregard the law and use their freedom for an excuse to do wrong, than it is anarchy and detrimental to the law and order, and unjust to the law-abiding. Jesus did not come to establish lawlessness or anarchy, but a higher law of doing mercy and grace to them whom have none.
---Eloy on 1/16/12


when we say that you're not under Law, but strictly by faith + nothing, does that mean you throw the Law? No!
Rom 13 Paul says as plain as English can make it. "That when we love our neighbor, as a believer, of course, then we fulfill the Law." We don't cast it out. Can you love someone and break any of those commandments against him? It's impossible. And so love is the fulfilling of the Law.
---michael_e on 1/16/12


James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

good works from flesh burn up. good works through the spirit as a result of faith in Jesus Christ are rewarded and are an indication of true faith.
---aka on 1/15/12


James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Putting both James and paul together. My sense is that people of faith DO...

I have faith in God I become a DOER of the law

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
---francis on 1/12/12


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In general, you cannot correctly interpret individual verses of scripture, only complete blocks of scripture [thought packets] this packet is Romans 3:29-31 Paul is stating that God is not just the God of the Jews but the Gentiles as well and will justify both the circumcises and the uncircumcised by faith. Do we then overthrow the law of faith:? on the contrary, we uphold the law.

When you interpret a complete block the meaning is usually clear. You may have problems with specific words, and a reading knowledge of original biblical languages is imperative likewise the use of extra biblical resources. The Holy Spirit my inspire you to study but It is not going to give answers, you are actually going to have to study.
---Blogger9211 on 1/11/12


Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS of the law shall be justified.

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, DO by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the a DEEDS OF THE LAW.
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The passage suggets doing ( THE DEEDS) of the law, not just hearing but DOING. Just because we are justufied by faith, does not mean we are not to follow the law. On the contrary, because we have faith we do the law.

SEE GALATION 3: 16-17
---francis on 1/11/12


We establish the law by being made right the way only God can make us right.

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17) Sin is separation from God, while faith is spiritual union with Him. I mean "faith working through love" (Galatians 5:6) > Paul speaks of the "law of faith" (Romans 3:27). This is a law of how things work spiritually, in this case how in faith's union with God we are effected by His own love "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5) making us so that, "as He is, so are we in this world." (in 1 John 4:17) His love cures us so we are right (justified) the way His love is so right.
---Bill_willa6989 on 1/11/12


considering the context, wivv and josef spoke well
---aka on 1/11/12


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Basically, it means to up hold, continue, affirm/confirm, present & abide in the law.
---Leon on 1/10/12


"Exactly how do we 'establish' the law?"
Through "the righteousness of God [which is] by [the] faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:" Rom 3:22
---josef on 1/10/12


Let's backtrack a little to the Gospels and what Christ said was His effect on the law. Matthew 5:17 (NASB77)
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets, I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill...." That means the law's requirements to get eternal life were met by Christ. Now, since the person who accept Christ as Savior is in Christ, he also has met the requirements of the law, and has established the law, not though what the person has done, but because what Christ has done. Side note: this section of Romans, Paul was pointing out the Christian has no right to boast - Christ did the fulfilling, not the Christian.
---wivv on 1/10/12


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