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Serving The Law Of Sin

The Apostle Paul in Romans 7:25b states: "So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." Do we also serve the law of God with our minds and the law of sin with our flesh?

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 ---lee1538 on 1/9/12
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Haz27//Can we start with definitions of "sin", as this may clear up misunderstandings.
---
Sin is anything that is contrary to the will of God. While it may on occasion be a violation of law, it also may be a refusal to do what God would have us to do. It could also be a negative type attitude toward something or someone that does not please God. Sin could also be idolatry (the worship of something else rather than God) or disbelief(doubt, mistrust).
---lee1538 on 3/8/12


Haz, With the passages you insist on been sinless. Please answer the questions
1. "Do you sin?" yes or no?
2. "If you do sin doesn't that make you a sinner?" Yes or not?
3. "Is your sin, not sin anymore?" Yes or No?
4. Are you completely Holy now?

You can talk all you want concerning the passages you gave, but in reality they are contradicting the word of God somewhere else with your interpretation. You can fool yourself which is what you have done. The Bible says, In (1 John 1:8) you have deceived yourself and the Truth is not in you. That is very bad. "If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us" (1 John 1:10).
---Mark_V. on 3/8/12


Nana: In Christ we are in absolute (imputed) righteousness.

But if a Christian brings themselves under law and are overcome by that doctrine, they make themselves a transgressor/sinner, Gal 2:18

Such a person "sins" wilfully and are lost, Heb 10:26. They're like a dog returning to it's vomit having become "again entangled", and "overcome" and "brought in bondage", 2Pet 2:19-22.

Christians do have to avoid "sin", and this is the sin of unbelief(John 6:29) which the "foolish Galatians" did after having begun in the Spirit they then sought to be made perfect by the flesh, Gal 3.
We are either righteous in Christ OR a lost sinner. You CAN'T be a righteous sinner.
---Haz27 on 3/7/12


//Now show me where the beloved disciple John (not the self appointed apostle Paul) ever tells us not to keep the 10 commandments// barb

show me where Paul tells us not to keep the 10 commandments.

(by the way, jesus stood up for the beloved john and the others when they picked grain on Sabbath to make bread. he also mentioned david who ate the show=bread that he was forbidden to eat.)

spirit of the law over the mandate of the law.
---aka on 3/7/12


lee1538: I suggest ignoring commentaries, they can lead you astray from the truth. Scripture will confirm scripture so commentaries are not necessary.

Can we start with definitions of "sin", as this may clear up misunderstandings. What definition do you apply for "sin" in both 1John1:8 and 1John3:6-9?

And what is this "habitual" level of sin? This implies there is a limit to sinning beyond which it's determined as "habitual" therefore proving one is of the devil. What is this limit, shown in scripture?

By the way, are you suggesting we toss the KJV as inaccurate?
---Haz27 on 3/7/12




Haz27- 1 John 3:9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin.

Barnes Notes:

This passage either means they who are true Christians, do not sin habitually and characteristically,OR every true Christian is absolutely perfect, and never commits sin.

If referring to the doctrine of absolute perfection, it proves, not that Christians may be perfect, or that a portion of them are, but that all are. Who can believe John meant to affirm this?

Nothing can be clearer that the passage has not this meaning, and John did not teach a doctrine so contrary to the current strain of the Scriptures, and if he did not teach this, then in this whole passage he refers to those who are habitually and characteristically righteous.
---lee1538 on 3/7/12


Haz27//I noted you referred to perhaps the NIV version of 1John3:6-9. And your reading of it contradicts KJV.

I use the ESV which I believe more accurately reflects the originals than the KJV.

As stated in Barnes Notes on 1 John 3:9, it is doubtful John would maintain once a person becomes a genuine Christian he no longer sins.

And you still have the problem with 1 John 1:8 in the KJV.

The doctrine of sanctification addresses the view that becoming a sinfree Christian is a process wrought by God's Spirit in our lives, we grow spiritually and reach complete maturity only when we will see the Lord.

Recommend strongly you study doctrine if you truly want a better understanding of what the Scripture is teaching.
---lee1538 on 3/7/12


"You CANNOT be both."

You have a problem in that you pretend that the state of a Christian is an absolute of righteousness.
Of old whatsoever permanence of righteousness there be was declared:

Ezekiel 3:20 "Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity..."
Ezekiel 3:21 "Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned, also thou hast delivered thy soul."

"You CANNOT be both"
We are told rather that we should not be both: James 3, specially v.10
---Nana on 3/7/12


Are we not dead to sin? We had better be or Jesus died and rose for no good purpose.
We cant be sinners anymore, Jesus took sin away and gave life.Sin is death.
---calhoon on 3/7/12


lee1538, unfortunately you interpret scripture apart from other scripture.
As the topic is "sin" can you give me your definition of it as it's important to understand each others definitions of sin.

I noted you referred to perhaps the NIV version of 1John3:6-9. And your reading of it contradicts KJV.

Regarding the NIV's "keeps on sinning", "makes practice of sinning", your reading of this suggests there is a limit to sinning which, if exceeded proves you are of the devil.
Can you show in scripture what this limit of sinning is?
Does this limit take into consideration how long someone lives?
And what "sin" does 1John3:6-9 speak of?
---Haz27 on 3/7/12




Mark_V, your response did not make any valid point.

Note the scriptures below which clearly separate 2 different groups.
Group 1: Righteous/Christians
group 2: Sinners/ungodly

"if the RIGHTEOUS scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the SINNER appear?" 1Pet 4:18

"the law is not made for a RIGHTEOUS man, but for the... for the ungodly and for SINNERS,

Either you are righteous OR a sinner. You CANNOT be both.
---Haz27 on 3/7/12


Haz//1John 3:6-9 "Whoever abides in Him does NOT sin. Whoever SINS has NEITHER SEEN Him NOR KNOWN Him....
----
Your problem is that you interpret scripture apart from other scripture.

1 John 3:6-9 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning, no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him....Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. ...No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for Gods seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

If you view Romans 7 even in the KJV, you would have to agree with how the modern versions translate 1 John.
---lee1538 on 3/7/12


David Conklin: Francis often quoted 1John3:6 "Whoever SINS has NEITHER SEEN Him NOR KNOWN Him...".

The problem with this is that SDAs do "sin" which means they have neither seen him nor known him. This is because SDAs are under the law, therefore making themselves transgressors (Gal 2:18).

But in Christ we "cannot sin" (1John3:9) and are righteous/NOT sinners (1Pet 4:18). We are set free from the law of sin and death (Rom 8:2) and where no law is, there is no transgression/sin (Rom 4:15). We are now righteous in Christ. Our old man is crucified with him (Rom 6:6) and he that has suffered in the flesh this way (Rom 6:6) has ceased from sin (1Pet 4:1). He that is dead is freed from sin (Rom 6:7).
---Haz27 on 3/6/12


Haz, you gave (1 Peter 4:18) and say I never answer it. You say the passage says,

"1Pet4:18 (which you always avoid) shows your either righteous OR sinner (NOT both"

The passage says nothing of a kind. (v. 17) "..and if it begins with us (believers) first, "what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?"
Then he says,
" If the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?"
this is a quote from Prov. 11:31) which reinforces the point that if the Justified sinner is saved only with great difficulty, suffering pain, and loss- what will be the end of the ungodly?" ( 2 Thess. 1:4-10).
---Mark_V. on 3/7/12


>Scripture shows you CAN'T be both. Hence why 1John3:9 says Christians cannot sin.

See 1 John 1:9 and 2:1. The difference between us and the world is that we do not love our sins, we abhor them.
---David_J._Conklin on 3/6/12


lee1538. apart from that question about what "sin" does 1John1:8 speak of can you explain the following?

1John 3:6-9 "Whoever abides in Him does NOT sin. Whoever SINS has NEITHER SEEN Him NOR KNOWN Him....
He who SINS IS OF THE DEVIL,... Whoever has been born of God does NOT sin, for His seed remains in him, and he CANNOT sin, because he has been born of God."

And: John 8:34 "whoever commits sin is a servant of sin"
---Haz27 on 3/6/12


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lee153:8 I find the "awkward gymnastics" and even avoidance of inconvenient scriptures comes from those who claim Christians are still sinners.

You quote 1John 1:8 and I have asked before, why would 1John1 speak to Christians in terms of: "bear witness", "declare", "that ye also may have fellowship...with the Father, and..his Son Jesus Christ". Sounds more like declaring the eternal life to the unsaved.

And 1John1:6 speaking of those who say they have fellowship BUT walk in darkness (without Christ). Can't be talking about Christians here either.

But as you believe 1John1:8 refers to Christians, in spite of the inconvenient scriptures above, what "sin" does it speak of?
---Haz27 on 3/6/12


//Scripture shows you CAN'T be both. Hence why 1John3:9 says Christians cannot sin.
If you believe on Jesus you are righteous and NOT a sinner.

I think MarkV is right when he stated we are sinners according to the flesh, but righteous according to the spirit.

And that is why 1 John also states -

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1:8)

As well as the Apostle Paul, when he stated - "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."(7:14)

Those that claim they are sinfree really have to do some awkward gymnastics to get around the plain words of scripture.
---lee1538 on 3/6/12


David_J._Conklin>Hundreds of theologians throughout the centuries have studied Galatians and have concluded that what the Adventists would believe is wrong.
---
You would be very hard pressed to find any commentary on Galatians written by an non-Adventist, that would agree with what Adventism believes.

No, I truly do not believe as they do, that Adventists were given a special anointing from God to introduce new doctrines nor to be in judgment on what other Christians would believe. In other words, their 1847 experience was really the result of their emotional weak minds. It is all too easy to see from historical accounts the hysteria of that whack-0 movement.
---lee1538 on 3/6/12


Mark_V: In our debates with each other you often fail to make any attempt to answer my questions. Your in no position to accuse me when I answer your questions in a way that disagrees with your doctrine.

1Pet4:18 (which you always avoid) shows your either righteous OR sinner (NOT both). 1John3:9 says we cannot sin. 1Pet 4:1 we have ceased from sin. John 8:36 we're set free from sin. Rom 6:7 we're freed from sin.

You define sin in ambiguous terms and you ALWAYS avoid God's specific definitions given in His word. Why do you always avoid God's definitions of sin?
I suggest you refer to God's definitions which I shared with you in previous debates. Then you might understand.
---Haz27 on 3/6/12


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Haz, you refuse to answer my questions and the reason you do is because you do sin. And all people who sin are sinners. you also refuse to answer if your sin is not sin anymore but righteousness. You don't answer because sin does not change, sin is sin.
Christians who are born of the Spirit do sin. They also admit they do sin. but you refuse to admit it and so the Truth is not in you, as far as ( 1 John 1:8). Paul called the Christians in ( 1 Cor. 3:1-4) carnal. Why? Because they were acting as those who are lost. Their sin was, envy, stife, and division. Carnality was not their permenant state, but they were still carnal (sinners). They were believers, read (v 3:1) Paul called them brethern.
---Mark_V. on 3/6/12


Mark_V: You said: "you are a sinner if you have the Truth."

BUT, God says: "If the righteous (speaking of Christians) are scarcely saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear" 1Pet 4:18
Here we see the righteous/Christians are NOT the same as the "sinners".

We are either:
righteous OR sinner
sheep OR goats
light OR darkness
saved OR lost
in the Spirit OR the flesh

Scripture shows you CAN'T be both. Hence why 1John3:9 says Christians cannot sin.
If you believe on Jesus you are righteous and NOT a sinner.
---Haz27 on 3/6/12


//If the cause of the critics was so true and right why do they have to lie so much?

All too many of critics of Adventism are from former Adventists - those that have been there and left when they discovered Adventist doctrines are very questionable. Many of the better books written on Adventism are well documented so what the critic says may be verified.

What we find in Adventism is largely the old hard shell legalists that condemns others for not having their same convictions and those that believe our salvation and walk is in Christ, not in some legalistic system.

We pray that Adventism will someday acquired more orthodox beliefs as held by the church over the centuries that can be more adequately defended.
---lee1538 on 3/6/12


>Hundreds of theologians throughout the centuries have studied Galatians and have concluded that what the Adventists would believe is wrong.

Interesting since the SDA's have only been around for 150 years.
---David_J._Conklin on 3/5/12


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>If they had discarded the blinders from Ellen White,

In her last public address, she picked up the Bible and said, "Gentlemen, I commend unto you this book." She points people to God and Jesus as our Savior from sin.
---David_J._Conklin on 3/5/12


>If they had discarded the blinders from Ellen White,

In a book that was recently printed I noted a list of 175 lies the critics have told about Ellen G. White.

If the cause of the critics was so true and right why do they have to lie so much?

And, even if they didn't tell the lie, the critics refuse to admit that any specific lie was in fact a lie!
---David_J._Conklin on 3/5/12


Mark_V: I'm not sure if I understand your point. I asked you if you still believe Christians walk in the flesh after those scriptures I quoted saying they don't? Your response seems to suggest you altered your position on the matter. Is that correct?

Regarding your questions about do Christians sin, we have discussed this before. You've seen the many scriptures supporting God's claim that we are no longer sinners as we're in Christ. It's up to you whether to accept them or not.
---Haz27 on 3/5/12


//Jerry squawks that 'Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.'"

I doubt you can make any good arguments that Christians really have carnal minds, especially those that are really into God's word.

1Co 2:16 For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

But what can be said of Adventists who stand in judgment of other Christians and do not even obey the word of God completely?
---lee1538 on 3/5/12


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//Pure baloney. For one example, just last year the church spent an entire quarter looking at Galatians.
---
If they had discarded the blinders from Ellen White, they would certainly have noted that they are the children of Hagar from Mt. Sinai.

Hundreds of theologians throughout the centuries have studied Galatians and have concluded that what the Adventists would believe is wrong.
---lee1538 on 3/5/12


>Yes, it is all too easy to see that Adventists have to reject the Word of God as penned by Paul as what he taught does indeed conflict with the convoluted beliefs of Adventism.

Pure baloney. For one example, just last year the church spent an entire quarter looking at Galatians.
---David_J._Conklin on 3/5/12


jerry//If you'll check, I think you'll find that it was Paul - not Jerry - that was doing the squawking.

Yes, it is all too easy to see that Adventists have to reject the Word of God as penned by Paul as what he taught does indeed conflict with the convoluted beliefs of Adventism.

2 Peter 3:15-16 This is what our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him- speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction.
---lee1538 on 3/5/12


Leest: "Jerry sqauwks [sic] that 'Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.'"

If you'll check, I think you'll find that it was Paul - not Jerry - that was doing the squawking. And once again you try to twist black into white. The carnally minded are those who claim to NOT be subject to the Law - not the other way around. If you were right, then Satan would be the good guy, and Christ would be carnally minded. Will you ever grow out of your infantile rebellion?



---jerry6593 on 3/5/12


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Haz, you did not read the whole context on (Rom. 8:8). (v. 5) explain,
"For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh"
Those who are lost set their minds on the thing of the flesh. But
"But those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit"
Believers born of the Spirit live their lifes according to the Spirit, because they are born of the Spirit. They are not perfect but now live their lifes according to the Spirit.
Then he says to explain the carnal mind,
"For to be carnally minded is death" Those same persons who live in the flesh is death. Then read about those spiritually minded.
You did not answer my questions.
---Mark_V. on 3/5/12


Jerry sqauwks that "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

But he has chosen to ignore that context as the follow verse declares -

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (8:9)

The legalist is the one who has chosen to live by the flesh under the law not realizing that he even has a carnal mind.
---lee1538 on 3/4/12


Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
---aka on 3/4/12


lee1538, please read all of 1st John 3 and not just verse 23. For instance verse 4 "Whosover commits sin trangresses the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." And how about this verse in 1st John 3 verse 9 "Whosover is born of God does not commit sin: for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin because he is born of God".

Now read John 5:1-3. "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep HIS COMMANDMENTS." Now show me where the beloved disciple John (not the self appointed apostle Paul) ever tells us not to keep the 10 commandments because verse 23 only tells me to believe in the Son of God and have love for others who do the same.






---barb on 3/4/12


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Mark_V:
You claim Christians still walk in the flesh.
BUT,
God says regarding Christians: "But ye are NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the Spirit" Rom 8:9

And for the NON-Christians we see: "those who walk according to the flesh....., like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed,... will utterly perish in their own corruption, and will receive the wages of unrighteousness," 2Pet 2:10-13

Are you saying you are STILL in the flesh after reading these scriptures?
---Haz27 on 3/4/12


//Didn't Jesus warn us to test the spirits?// barb

No. John did.
---aka on 3/4/12


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

It looks like those who are not subject to the LAW are the ones with the carnal minds, and thus are the ones who serve the law of sin.


---jerry6593 on 3/4/12


Bro. Haz, you cannot possibly be telling me you don't sin? You are saying your sin is not sin? Is your sin a righteous deed?
I suppose you know that the flesh will die. That you will die one day because you are carrying your flesh? Do you know why it dies? Because the body you carry is dead to sin. Unless you will rise and go to heaven without dying like Elijah and Enoch who did not die. Haz, I know you don't want to be called a sinner, but I'm sorry, you are a sinner if you have the Truth. I believe you have the Truth.
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, "and the Truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8).
Haz, you were a slave to sin before, you have been set free if you have the Truth.
---Mark_V. on 3/4/12


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barb //Rev. 12:17. Was Jesus lying when He told John to write these words?
---
Rev. 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

And for John, the commandments in Revelation are not the Decalogue but simply to "believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." 1 John 5:23

And that make sense when you acknowledge that love of neighbor fulfills the law Romans 13:9-10.

No, neither was jesus lying when He said the righteous must live by faith (Romans 1:17, Gal. 3:11) but the law is NOT of faith. Gal. 3:12
---lee1538 on 3/4/12


Mark_V: You claim Christians still walk in the flesh.
BUT, consider what God says in these scriptures:

Regarding Christians: "But ye are NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the Spirit" Rom 8:9

And for the NON-Christians we see: "those who walk according to the flesh.....these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed,... will utterly perish in their own corruption, and will receive the wages of unrighteousness," 2Pet 2:10-13

Scripture shows Christians are not walking in both the Spirit AND flesh. Either we have the Spirit of Christ dwelling in us OR we don't and hence are none of His, Rom 8:9
---Haz27 on 3/3/12


Ann, either Jesus and God are one with the Holy Spirit or they are not. One member will not speak against the other. Where does Jesus teach us that we are saved by grace? Did Jesus tell us to abide in His word or did He tell us to follow anyone who claims they are sent by Him? Didn't Jesus warn us to test the spirits? How do we put those to the test who claim to be apostles and are not? To the Law and to the prophets....

Rev. 12:17. Was Jesus lying when He told John to write these words?
---barb on 3/3/12


We are saved by Grace. Grace grace and more grace. Old Testament is the law. The New Testament is Jesus which is grace.
---Ann_Leidel on 3/3/12


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Duane, you are correct, you are not a sinner when you are walking in the Spirit. But you walk in the flesh more then you walk in the Spirit so you are a sinner when you walk in the flesh. And before today is over you would have walked in the flesh a few times. Sorry brother, you cannot help yourself, you will answer the tempation a few times. If you had time to feed the one poor person and watched tv, or spend your time uselessly you have sinned. If you cannot sell all and follow Christ you have sinned. Listen to the story of the rich man, he loved himself and his possessions more than his neighbors, instead he walked away, a lack of faith. No matter how you cut it you will still sin.
---Mark_V. on 3/3/12


Eloy and excellent way have said it correct. We are not sinners anymore. We are without sin if we live through faith in HIM
---duane on 3/1/12


Ro 7:15,17 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not, but what I hate, that do I. ...
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Paul apparently blamed the flesh (the nature he was born with) for the sin he committed, not what he had become spiritually in Christ.

All the more reason why he said we should live by the Spirit and put to death the flesh.

Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
---lee1538 on 3/1/12


The phrase and concept "LAKE of fire" is from ancient Egyptian pagan worship. It is only used in the book of Revelations (the book also contains a threating ULTIMATUM all the way at THE END of the book, not a CAUTION warning). The "LAKE" concept was passed through to the N.T. by the "Brood of Vipers" children of hell at the Council of Jerusalem (Martin Luther wanted to discard the whole book from the canon).
.....(search Wikipedia online for "lake of fire").
---more_excellent_way on 3/1/12


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Many people want to think that they won't experience any consequences for 'bad/wrong living', but this is not true. They damage their 'life experience' by becoming 'sad, pitiful' people (weepers) and experience a shallow existence and "gnash their teeth" because their conscience causes them to be continuously 'stressed out' (nervous wrecks). Jesus says that they are experiencing a "hell of fire"....(just like in Matthew 22:13 "there men will weep and gnash their teeth").

The "law of sin" was meant for EARTHLY kingdoms. If you are melancholy (sad/disenchanted) about this world ("poor in spirit")...
Matthew 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit...".

Verse is from the RSV.
---more_excellent_way on 3/1/12


All who are truly saddened by the limits of what this world has to offer will long for deliverance from living a mere physical existence and will seek a 'spiritual' return ("restoration") to genuine "LIFE" (instead of "existence"). This goal requires being reconnected with the creator and knowing the name of His "purifier", but also caring about HIS WILL instead of NEEDING COMMANDS.

For now, the angels minister to us. They "separate" and ensure the penalty of punishment, but they don't do the judging,....our conscience judges us (whether we realize it or not).

Matthew 13:42
"throw them into the furnace of fire, there men will weep and gnash their teeth".
---more_excellent_way on 3/1/12


Contrary to what has always been taught by man, COMPLETED "salvation" is a TWO-STEP process...

1) purification of THE FLESH......"purification according to THE LAW OF MOSES" (Luke 2:22).

"the blood of goats and bulls.....the purification of the flesh" (Hebrews 9:13).

2) "purify the conscience" (Hebrews 9:14).

In O.T. times, the Jews REPEATEDLY made sacrifices and offerings for the cleansing of their sins....but now, Jesus is the FINAL/permanent/everlasting sin sacrifice.
---more_excellent_way on 2/24/12


If the Jews had the FINAL sacrifice/cleansing for the transgression of the 10 commandments, "they would no longer have any consciousness of SIN" (Hebrews 10:2).....SO, for all who have acknowledged Jesus as savior, there is no longer any such thing as transgressing the 10 commandments (the LAW OF "SIN" was destroyed AT THE CROSS, "It is DONE").....

We are freed from the LAW OF DEATH by THE SPIRIT (the Spirit was not given until Jesus was glorified).....John 7:39 "the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified".

Romans 8:2 "the law of the Spirit".....[of LIFE in and of Jesus]..."set me free from the law of sin and death").
---more_excellent_way on 2/24/12


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Eloy - The only sorrow I have is that there are many that are deep into sin and really do not realize it.

And it is you that fails to recognize that you have your sin. Is the truth really in you since you claim to be sinless?

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Peace? I think the following verse pertains to me.

\Ro 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
---lee1538 on 1/17/12


lee1538, I have already corrected you for posting falsehood. And this is why you have sorrow, because you know that you are posting falsehood and that you yourself are abiding in sin rather than abiding in holiness as commanded. Repent and begin to post truth, then you will not have sorrow for posting words that are true. As long as you post lie and blasphemy you will have condemnation, always and at all times: but when you post the truth, than you will have praise and blessing of the same. The Saint and the sinner are distinguished by either the good or bad fruit that each one bears, the Saint cannot bear sin and the sinner cannot bear holiness. Mt.7:17-20.
---Eloy on 1/13/12


micha9344 on 1/12/12
VERY NICE POST

One minor correction
Circumcision is not a sign of the promise of the land,. It is a sign of the promise THE SON through Abraham by which all nations shall be blessed

Genesis 17:1 the LORD appeared to Abram,
Genesis 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Genesis 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
Genesis 17:6 I will make nations of thee, .
Genesis 17:8 I will give unto thee, the land
Genesis 17:10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee, Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Genesis 17:21
---francis on 1/13/12


Eloy - once in Christ there is no condemnation (Romans 8:1) even if we violate the law of God which was but a temporary provision unitl we could be justified by faith. (Gal 3:24f)

Thus Paul's statement, we serve the law of God with our minds but the law of sin in our flesh.

Sorry Eloy but we all have our sin and we are liars to ourselves if we say otherwise

1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
---lee1538 on 1/13/12


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lee1538, Romans 7:14 is preempted by vs.5 and 11 which is past tense: "For when we were in the flesh...sin deceived me."Likewise vs.19 is preempted by vs.16, lit.Gk: "Pretend then I do that which I should not...Again Romans 7:23 is preempted by vs.22: "I delight yet the law of God according to the inner man."And I Timothy 1:15 in lit.Gk: "Trustworthy the word and to be worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world sinners to save, being prominent was I."

lee if you believe Paul is a sinner rather than a saint, then why would you believe any words he wrote? for words from a sinner cannot be trusted neither can they be holy nor holy scripture.
---Eloy on 1/13/12


lee1538, Romans 7:14 is preempted by vs.5 and 11 which is past tense: "For when we were in the flesh...sin deceived me."Likewise vs.19 is preempted by vs.16, lit.Gk: "Pretend then I do that which I should not...Again Romans 7:23 is preempted by vs.22: "I delight yet the law of God according to the inner man."And I Timothy 1:15 in lit.Gk: "Trustworthy the word and to be worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world sinners to save, being prominent was I."

lee, if you believe Paul is a sinner rather than a saint, then why would you believe any words he wrote? for words from a sinner cannot be trusted neither can they be holy nor holy scripture.
---Eloy on 1/13/12


Covenants from God:
To: Noah Gen 9:8-17
For: all living
The Promise: no more global flood.
The sign(token): rainbow
To: Abram Gen 17:1-14
For: All descendants
The Promise: the land of Canaan and to be their God
The sign(token): circumcision
So...who can answer these for the covenant made to Israel(old) and the covenant made to believers (new)?
To:
For:
The promise:
The sign(token):
---micha9344 on 1/12/12


Eloy //The whole passage of Romans 7:5 through to Romans 8:2 clearly shows the before and the after.

Romans 7: 14 For we know the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
(7:19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

(7: 23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, ..., that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

Paul is speaking in the present tense as to his current situation.

No, Eloy you still have problems as your flesh continues to serve the law of sin.
---lee1538 on 1/12/12


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lee, this is a common English mistranslation. lit.Gk: "I thank God by Jesus Christ who's Lord of us. Therefore then I myself that truly determined serves God's law, though that flesh sin's law." What flesh? Not his present flesh, but "that flesh", the flesh before his conversion into Christ's body. The whole passage of Romans 7:5 through to Romans 8:2 clearly shows the "before" and the "after". Before Paul was saved, he persecuted the church of Christ and consented to stoning Stephen the Christian to death: after Paul became a Saint, he spread the gospel and wrote a large part of the New Testament Holy Scriptures.
---Eloy on 1/12/12


Barb //The mind and body (flesh) are the same thing.

Scripture makes a distinction between body and mind.

As to the body -

Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

See Galatians 5:19f for what are the works of the flesh.

As to the mind -

Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. Romans 12:2

If we think obedience to the law is what is required of us, then we are qualified to boost.

Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord. 1 Cor. 1:31
---lee1538 on 1/11/12


The mind and body (flesh) are the same thing. The mind and body are the breath of life...the soul. Paul is talking nonsense. God wants us to love him with all our hearts, minds and souls. Matt 22:37. Jesus does not divide God's law into the laws of mind and flesh. In fact He tells us we cannot serve God and Satan (two masters) at the same time. Matt 6:24.

God requires total obedience from us and we cannot obey when we withhold half of ourselves from Him. Jesus tells us that we must overcome sin as He did and that includes sins of the flesh. Rev 3:21, Rev. 21:7.
---barb on 1/11/12


To me, the "flesh" can mean our nature which still makes us available to how Satan's spirit would effect us > Ephesians 2:2 < Satan's evil spirit can share his emotions with us, including things that are negative, nasty reacting, emotionally dominating, depressing, lonely and boring, instead of us being sweetly satisfied in the honey of God's love (Psalm 81:16, Romans 5:5).

But Jesus in us is "gentle and lowly in heart" in His emotions and feelings, "and you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:29) We need to grow more in Jesus (Galatians 4:19, so that Jesus in us is sharing with us His own almighty immunity against sin-sick stuff. His love's almighty power makes us immune to fear > 1 John 4:17-18.
---Bill_willa6989 on 1/11/12


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Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant..For this is the covenant that I will make I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts:

So the fault was NOT with the covenant. The covenant was good. god asked them to obey him, and they agreed.
Good agreement EXCEPT the did not keep his laws, so God had to make a new covenant NOT A NEW LAW!

THE KEY FEATURE of the new covenat not found in the OLD is the promise of THE SPIRIT
Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

NOT A NEW LAW
---francis on 1/10/12


Lee we never quote just that verse we quote all three.

Hbr 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hbr 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Notice the reason for the New Covenant was the people not the law. John Calvin said that the Ten Commandments were "the true and eternal rule of righteousness [for all] who wish to conform their lives to God's will."
---Samuel on 1/10/12


We're in a battle (Rom 7:23). Spirit verses flesh. We see types throughout the Bible, such as:
Cain/Able
Esau/Jacob.

The flesh/carnally minded cannot please God and are in death (Rom 8:6,8). Such do not submit to the righteousness of God but seek to establish their own righteousness by works of the law (Rom 10:3).

Those in the Spirit walk by faith.

Either we serve righteousness OR sin Rom 6:16. Either we stand ONLY by grace, or we seek to establish our own righteousness.

The foolish Galatians struggled in this battle seeking to be perfected by the flesh (works of law) after having begun in the Spirit(Gal 3:3). This is an example of the battle we are in.
Who rules in our lives? Spirit OR flesh?
---Haz27 on 1/10/12


THIS IS THE OLD COVENANT:
Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people:
Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Exodus 19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
Exodus 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
---francis on 1/10/12


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Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND...

Adventists never quote the previous verses -

I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Adventists view the New Covenant as nothing more than a rehash of the Old desiring to impose on the church laws given only to the nation of Israel. And such is the Sabbath.
---lee1538 on 1/10/12


"Do we also serve the law of God with our minds and the law of sin with our flesh?"---lee1538 on 1/9/12
Yes. The mind in this verse references a spiritual way of thinking. A way of thinking that transcends the sensual, to think on things that are above it. The flesh references the carnality of a mans thinking. A way of thinking that focuses on the externals of life. A sensually based mentality. We are to walk by faith, not by sight. And without faith, it is impossible to please or serve The Father. The Just shall live by faith." For "the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be." Rom. 8:7
---Josef on 1/10/12


Romans 7:25 So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

How exactly does this work.

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND,..

In the mind of a christian is THE LAW OF GOD. So then it is easy to serve the law of God with our minds

Our flesh is our carnal nature:
Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh,.. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Because the carnal mind/ flesh is against the law of God, we can only serve sin in our flesh.
---francis on 1/10/12


Lee, the answer is yes. Everyone does both. We are no different then Paul in that category. In our minds we know what we should and should not do. But the flesh wants us to do otherwise. Sometimes we respond to the flesh. The natural man is the unregenerate, the Spiritual man is the regenerate man. The spiritual man is the regenerate but he can act in a fleshly way. Anytime we disobey the Lord, we are carnal. Anytime we obey the Lord we are spiritual. That means fleshly, operating in off the principle of sin. Carnality is not a permanent state of Christians. It is simply a momentary experience of the Believer who is disobedient to God.
---Mark_V. on 1/10/12


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We have two natures. The flesh-which is the sin nature transfered from Adam, and the spirit which we recieve from God/ Jesus.

These two natures are at war against each other at the same time.

Our mind should contain the law of God.

So we have our mind which has the law of God waring against the flesh shich has the sin nature.

with our mind we serve the law of God, but with our flesh we serve sin.

The mind/ though/ heart/ brain is the battle ground for good or evil

Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
---francis on 1/10/12


flesh refers to the " carnal / non spiritual human thinking."
Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].

So left without the spirit of God, we would live in sin

Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Ephesians 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another
---francis on 1/9/12


Mat_11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

2Co_12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
---TheSeg on 1/9/12


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