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Born Of The Spirit

When does scripture declare that a man is BORN of the Spirit? Before faith in Christ or after faith in Christ? (please post the scripture)

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MarkV you keep talking in circles, not making any sense at all.

First of all, if you put FAITH where it belongs, MSN"S RESPONSIBILITY, then you would not have your universal mindset that faith is tHE gift that saves.

Secondly There are many different aspects to GRACE in scripture.

One is we grow in tHE Grace and Knowledge of Jesus Christ after salvation, and this is what that verse means re: Paul was given grace...etc.

God called Paul to preach, and was given knowledge in Christ to impart to others.
The verse you quoted from Paul is not about salvation.Paul can't impart salvation to others. use you brains!
---kathr4453 on 1/24/12


Again markV, that verse Paul is stating in Romans is to those who believe, not concerning salvation either. Believe it or not, after we are saved by grace= Jesus Christ, we CONTINUE to live by Faith of Christ.

Faith is also listed as one of the fruiits of the Spirit.

So also rightly divide these verses concerning faith as well. Paul here is talking about our spiritual gifts that operate through faith. and for people not to think their gift is of their own flesh.



PLEASE don't confuse the gifts of the Spirit with the GIFT of God who gave His only Begotten Son to die and rise again for the salvation of man.
---kathr4453 on 1/24/12


Kathr, no amount of God's word will every have any effect on you because God will not reveal it to you. That is why every day, you argue. Such a God as Almighty God cannot be found out by searching, and lying, He can be Known only as He is revealed by the Holy Spirit through the Word. Nothing you say, or argue, are make-up, is worth a bowl of beans. Nada, Zero.
---Mark_V. on 1/24/12


Mark E, I'm sorry you do not believe a person has to be born of the Spirit in order to believe by faith. And that every single person even the lost has been given a measure of faith. If they have, then every single person lost is justified. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith, apart from the deeds of the law.". That's what you are saying. In the passage in (Rom.12:3) he was speaking to believers "For I say, "through the Grace given to me, to everyone who is among you" (believers) not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith" Each one of the believers among them. He called them brethren in (v.1).
---Mark_V. on 1/24/12


\\James_L - Is not faith also something that we receive from the Lord as faith is simply what we believe?\\
---lee1538 on 1/23/12

I would agree with you 100%, and that is my point to Mark V.

The Holy Spirit enlightens us, making the gospel "attractive" to us to where we ponder the truth of it.

When we become conviced of the thruth of the gospel, we now "have" faith.

We are not "given" faith, as though it is some magic force that enables us to "choose" to believe the gospel.

We are "given" faith, meaning that it is God convincing us of the veracity of His promise
---James_L on 1/24/12




OR is MarkV saying God graceously gives us the Holy Spirit, "New Birth" prior to faith so that we can believe? This is my understanding of what they are stating, That the Gift of faith can only come via being Born Again first. And for one to have this faith, one needs to be Born of the Spirit first. And this is MarkV's doctrine on God Graceously picking and choosing who will and will not be saved, based on a mercy one then needs to BEG for after salvation, that is also a Gift based on God's good humor and not the Blood of Jesus Christ, or OT sound doctrine Leviticus 16.

Personally, If I didn't KNOW scriptures as well as I do, I wouldn't know whether to scratch my watch or wind my head!
---kathr4453 on 1/24/12


Everything concerning our salvation is of God. You boast when you want to take credit and the glory.
---Mark_V. on 1/24/12

I think what is necessary to say is that while faith to believe in Jesus is given of God, this is not what is described as the new birth nor is it what is described as being Born of the Spirit or Baptised of the Spirit.

I have seen you post that we are made alive of the Spirit prior to belief in Jesus which I believe is not Scriptural. What God gives us is a measure of faith to believe in Jesus, not eternal life or birth in the Spirit.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/24/12


You're wrong MarkV, God did not GRACEOUSLY save us. Being saved BY GRACE is not the same as one being graceous.

So you need to get with the PROGRAN and stop giving words new definitions.

We are Saved by Jesus RISEN LIFE....Justified by His BLOOD, and Saved by HIS LIFE, not God's good humor.

THIS is Grace.

Our faith is in Jesus Death and Resurrection. Romans 10:9-10 make that perfectly clear.

Either you all are totally ignorant of Doctrine, just understand in baby terms, or are false teachers.
---kathr4453 on 1/24/12


Kathr, I gave you scriptures all you did was do a lot of talking. Get with the program.
God graciously saved us by His mercy. By bringing us alive to Christ. And what does that have to do with salvation? Through that grace He gave us faith to believe in the works of Christ. He changed our hearts, and gave us the promise, the indwelling of the Spirit so that we can accomplish the works He has for us, and then sealed us by the Spirit for all eternity.
"For who sees anything different in you? What have you that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if it were not a gift?" ( 1 Cor. 4:7)."
Everything concerning our salvation is of God. You boast when you want to take credit and the glory.
---Mark_V. on 1/24/12


Salvation is wholly of God from start to finish as He provide the grace that enables us by faith to accept Him as our Lord & Savior.(Eph. 2:8-9) And we walk by faith (Romans 1:17, Gal. 3:11)///


So now you're it's Grace that provides the faith to Believe...Hummmmmm

Can you back that up with scripture.

How interesting to take GRACE and use this now as something it's not.

So now you say the gift of grace is faith??/ NO Christ?

GRACE = Jesus crucified and risen.

How awful to make Jesus Christ secondary to your false doctrine of what you are really saying, that you were SAVED BY FAITH THROUGH GRACE.

BEWARE FOLKS!

OH and Salvation is NOT "accepting" Him as Lord and Savior.
---kathr4453 on 1/24/12




kathr4453//Faith comes at no ones expense. GRACE came at Christ's Expense.
---

Salvation is wholly of God from start to finish as He provide the grace that enables us by faith to accept Him as our Lord & Savior.(Eph. 2:8-9) And we walk by faith (Romans 1:17, Gal. 3:11)

Your problem is that you simply refuse to accept the FACT that God is totally sovereign.

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

"for many" does not mean "for all".
---lee1538 on 1/23/12


Romans 4:16,
"There for it is of faith (righteousness) that it might be "according to grace" so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham"
Abraham's faith was also according to grace.

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, been justified freely by His grace' through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:23,24).

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works" lest anyone should boast" ( Eph. 2:8,9).
---Mark_V. on 1/23/12


There should no disagreement among believers, as to God's grace, faith, and righteousness. They are all gifts from God. Nothing we did deserved the righteousness of Christ, God's gracious gifts, and the faith to believe in His Son.
"For who sees anything different in you? What have you that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if it were not a gift?" ( 1 Cor. 4:7). Everything from beginning to end concerning our salvation is from God. When we were not willing, He made us willing. But He doesn't do that to everyone. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9). implying that some were appointed to wrath.
---Mark_V on 1/23/12


Here we are back at the basics.... poor English skills while reading Eph 2:8,9.

Weren't these verses broken down over a year ago to show that the word "faith" is not the subject of "it is the gift of God"?
---JackB on 1/23/12


LEE1538, Salvation, Jesus dying for our sin, Jesus shedding His own blood is certainly not of our doing as we can never shed our own blood to atone for our sin.

THIS ALONE was and is the GIFT God has given..His Son, as teh final sacrifice for sin.

Romans 5 totally explain that GRACE is the Gift, and never once says faith is the Gift. The GIFT OF GRACE,

GRACE is God's Riches at Christ's EXPENSE. The EXPENSE was Jesus LIFE, not faith.

Faith comes at no ones expense. GRACE came at Christ's Expense.
---kathr4453 on 1/23/12


James_L - Is not faith also something that we receive from the Lord as faith is simply what we believe?

Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Without faith we cannot be saved nor can we ever please God.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
---lee1538 on 1/23/12


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I am not asking a question here, rather putting a contrasting point out there in light of Jamess interpretations. On more than one occasion the disciples asked Christ for more faith, or perhaps more wind to fill their sagging sales? Also, Jesus more than once exclaims, Oh, you of little faith. So, the idea is raised, is it a noun, or a verb, or both? Interesting take/conclusions that I read on this thread. Scripture cant argue with scripture, so the argument would have to lye in us and our understanding. In His grip
---Poppa_Bear on 1/23/12


\\Paul often says that we are saved "through" faith... (instrumental cause/meritorious cause)\\
---Mark_V. on 1/23/12

The bible nowhere attempts to make this distinction

Romans 4
Verse 3 Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness
Verse 5 faith is counted as righteousness


You are wrongly looking at faith as something you "use" to believe

I might "use" wind to fly a kite.
Faith is not the wind that flies our belief, faith IS belief.

You are convinced, and thus you believe
You are convinced, and this you have faith

You don't "get" faith and then "direct" it
---James_L on 1/23/12


Jesus said, "But "you are not willing to come to Me" that you may have life"
Can it be more clear to you what coming to Christ means? Your implying Jesus lied, please don't do that, it is not necessay.
---Mark_V. on 1/23/12


Can it not be MORE CLEAR what FREE WILL is about. Where does it say God was not willing that these should be saved.

Jesus clearly puts teh responsibility on MAN, not Himself or His Father!
---kathr4453 on 1/23/12


Mark V,

\\Making a commitment to follow Christ takes faith.\\
No, it doesn't. Jesus said to His followers "But among you there are some who do not believe" (John 6:64)


\\How can you possibly believe in who He is and His works on the Cross so that you can be forgiven if you have no faith?\\
I think we probably disagree on the essence of faith. Faith is not an active element, given to us that we execise. Faith is belief, and that happens to us.

\\A person has to come to Christ willingly\\
So are you now advocating a free-will position? Jesus also said that no one comes unless the Father draws him. That drawing is through enlightenment (2Cor 4:4-6, Eph 1:18)
---James_L on 1/23/12


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James 2: When a person is willing to come to Christ to have life it is because He has faith in Him that it will happen. And that faith comes as a gift after a person is made alive together with Christ. No one knows when the Spirit brings someone to life, all we know is that the person has changed. His heart is changed, his disposition has changed, where before he despised Christ now he comes to love Christ, we love Him because He first loved us. Paul often says that we are saved "through" faith (that is, as the instrumental cause) but never once does he say that we are saved "on account of faith" (that is, as the meritorious cause).
---Mark_V. on 1/23/12


James, why would you, a good person, make it so difficult, when you understand clearly what I'm saying? Making a commitment to follow Christ takes faith. How can you possibly believe in who He is and His works on the Cross so that you can be forgiven if you have no faith? Jesus said,
"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe (by faith) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36). A person has to come to Christ willingly, Jesus said, "But "you are not willing to come to Me" that you may have life"
Can it be more clear to you what coming to Christ means? Your implying Jesus lied, please don't do that, it is not necessay.
---Mark_V. on 1/23/12


Some here believe one is born again before Justification. That is impossible. They base Justification on the Holy Spirit and not on faith.

But Ephesians tells us the Holy Spirit is given AFTER we believe, not before.

I gave many scriptures stating that FACT. The GIFT of tehh Holy Spirit is given to those who OBEY the Gospel as the book of Acts well tells us.

There seems to be two entirely different gospelsgoing on here. Either the Book of Acts TESTIFIES to truth and the ORDER of salvation or it's ALL A LIE.

There is no Calvin doctrine in ACTS!
---kathr4453 on 1/23/12


Mark V,

\\If a person had no faith in Christ why would he come to Christ?\\

If a man is born again without faith, why does he need faith, or even Christ?


\\If a person has faith in Christ without been born again of the Spirit, he could enter heaven without been born again...\\

No, he couldn't. Why do you think OT saints went to Hades? They were not born again.


\\That only works on people who believe a person is saved by his own works.\\

You're the one who just said WE come to Christ. I never said that. So it's your false doctrine, not mine.

WE don't "come" to Christ.
WE don't "accept" Him
WE don't "choose" Him
WE don't "decide" to believe
---James_L on 1/22/12


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James L 2: Baptism of the Holy Spirit is another action of God, in this case every believer is spiritually baptized into one body. And Jesus is the head of that body. Another action of God is that the believer is sealed by the Spirit forever.
If a person had no faith in Christ why would he come to Christ? If a person has faith in Christ without been born again of the Spirit, he could enter heaven without been born again, and we know Jesus said, that in order to enter the kingdom of God we need to be born again of the Spirit. If a person could, he could enter and leave when he pleases. That only works on people who believe a person is saved by his own works. A false doctrine.
---Mark_V. on 1/22/12


James L 2: Baptism of the Holy Spirit is another action of God, in this case every believer is spiritually baptized into one body. And Jesus is the head of that body. Another action of God is that the believer is sealed by the Spirit forever.
If a person had no faith in Christ why would he come to Christ? If a person has faith in Christ without been born again of the Spirit, he could enter heaven without been born again, and we know Jesus said, that in order to enter the kingdom of God we need to be born again of the Spirit. If a person could, he could enter and leave when he pleases. That only works on people who believe a person is saved by his own works. A false doctrine
---Mark_V. on 1/22/12


I respect your view, but you are wrong concerning the word. "Regeneration" (3824) the word is "Paliggenesis" and comes from two words, "Palin" and Ginomal"
---Mark_V. on 1/20/12

Actually, we are both wrong and both right.

I have found two sources that contradict themselves on this definition.

The Key Word Study Bible (Zodhiates) shows the root of Paliggenesia(3824) to be palin(3825) and ginomai(1096).

However, the Complete Word Study Dictionary (Zodhiates) and Vines Complete Dictionary shows the word to be formed from palin(3825) and genesis(1078).
---Mark_Eaton on 1/22/12


James L, Your speaking of the indwelling of the Spirit at Pentecost. I'm speaking of been born again of the Spirit, two different actions by God. We know we are saved by grace through faith, and no one can come to Christ without that faith. We know the lost have no faith. We know that faith comes from God as a gift by grace not of our own works. "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God" (1 Cor. 2:14) He needs to be made alive in order to understand spiritual matters. Old Testament believers were born of the Spirit and saved by grace through faith, but most were not indwelled by the Spirit, some were. The indwelling of the Spirit is so we can perform the duties in this life for the glory of Christ.
---Mark_V on 1/22/12


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christan, you too have a lot to say yet say NOTHIG at all. Obviously you couldn't answer the statement but chose rather to lower yourself to fits of rage like all cults do when they are brought face to face with truth and can't deal with it.

NO ONE was BORN of the Spirit of the LIFE of the RISEN Christ before Jesus rose from the dead.No one was crucified with Christ and raised up a NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST before His death and resurrection.

It is Jesus Christ who baptizes you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

HIS BAPTISM,NEW BIRTH did not come until after pentecost and is given ONLY tho those who identify in His death and resurrection life! AKA BORN AGAIN!
---kathr4453 on 1/22/12


\\James L, the passage you gave changes nothing....\\
---Mark_V. on 1/20/12


Mark V,
you sure used a lot of words to say nothing.

The point I was making is that the Spirit had not been given yet. That didn't happen until Pentecost.

That also means that NO ONE was regenerated before Pentecost.

So, for you to say that someone must be born again (regenerated) before he can believe the gospel flies right in the face of scripture.

Are you suggesting that there weren't any believers at all before Pentecost?

That seems to be the logical conclusion from your statements
---James_L on 1/21/12


Jack, if you have a real passion for Christ and want the Truth, read what Eph. 2 has to say. Those who are dead in trespasses an sins, are those who walking to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedients filling the desires of the flesh and of the mind. These very same people God has to make alive before they can have a desire for Christ and fill His desires in our minds. Without that regeneration, you remain the same. ( Eph. 2:1-13).
---Mark_V. on 1/21/12


kathr, you have the audacity to accuse me of being "dim and limited understanding"? So, you claim to be someone who actually thinks he is so full of light and have unlimited understanding? Really? Such according to the words of Christ, "If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!" Matthew 6:23

Yes, everything that you have said is so contradictory to the Word of God that even darkness would have be so ashamed to be in your company. So, please don't flatter yourself as one with light and unlimited understanding of the Word of God. You only bring judgement upon yourself.
---christan on 1/21/12


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christan, I'm so sorry you have such a dim and limited understanding of scripture ans SPIT in the faces of those who don't hold to your infantile understandng of spiritual things.

This blog is not talking about the final resurrection, but askes, "WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE BORN OF THE SPIRIT"

When you have fully comprehended the question, you will see story has two meanings. It is appointed ONCE to die and then the judgement.

IS Lazarus still alive walking around today, or did he die?

AND I will say this again, we will not be resurrected in our old flesh bodies, but will be a NEW CREATURE fashioned as Christ in Glorified bodies. Does Lazarus display a glorified body?

---kathr4453 on 1/21/12


"We see here a double meaning in that, Jesus was saying..." kathr

You mean to say, "You see". And what's this "double meaning"? Here's the take of John 11:23,24. It MUST be accompanied by verse 25 "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live."

It's already a given that the family of Lazarus were believers of Jesus because of the faith God has granted unto them. For Christ exalted the Father saying, "...but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me."

Talk about poison, you don't even know you're drowning in your own poison!
---christan on 1/20/12


Mark E, I respect your view, but you are wrong concerning the word. "Regeneration" (3824) the word is "Paliggenesis" and comes from two words, "Palin" and Ginomal" Palin means "again" and Ginomal refers to recovery, renovation. In (Matt. 19:28) refers to the coming state of the whole creation, equivalent to the restoration of all things (Acts 3:21) which will occur when the Son of Man shall come in His glory to restore. "the washing of regeneration" in (Titus 3:5) refers to the regeneration of the individual soul. To beget again. I think you have the wrong word you are looking up. A careful study will show what regeneration means. There is no Genesis whatsoever.
---Mark_V. on 1/20/12


Romans 8 is our resurrected LIFE today In Christ. We experience TWO resurrections. 1st Cor 15 is the final resurrection from the dead. and the the other, the first, we experience here and now when we are Born Again, born of God, Born of the Spirit of the LIFE OF CHRIST in us.

But lets remember we too must remove our old grace cloths( our old man) in order to walk in the Spirit.

Many are still bound in those old grrave cloths that represent that we died with Christ today and need setting free from our old ways of life.
---kathr4453 on 1/20/12


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Could you explain or describe how you understand the difference between the spirit and soul of a believer? Sunstance of each?
---James_L on 1/20/12

Sure.

The soul gives life to the body. It is what leaves the body and we are dead. It gives us our rational thought. It is the seat of our emotions, our intelligence, our ambitions, and our self-will. It is what makes us human. In Biblical terms, it is our carnality.

The spirit is our connection to God and is the seat of our understanding of God. Since it is born of God, our spirit follows after God. Our spirit wants us to live a godly life, to follow the commandments of God, and to use our spiritual gifts.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/20/12


James L, the passage you gave changes nothing. If you are a believer by faith, you've been born again of the Spirit for no one lost has faith. When you are born of the Spirit "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water" Why? Because your are in Christ. The significance of Jesus invitation centers in the fact that He was the fulfillment of all the Feast of Tabernacles anticipated. His the One who provides the living water that gives eternal life to man you witness to. (4:10,11). The power to bring eternal life comes from Him. "Thirst, Come and drink" These 3 words summarize the gospel invitation. The thirsty needy soul feels the craving to come to the Savior and drink after having believed in the gospel.
---Mark_V. on 1/20/12


Verse 23-24: "Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." 24 Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

We see here a double meaning in that, Jesus was saying that He would not only raise Lazarus from the dead in the present time, but also, along with every Believer in the resurrection.

christan, your mouth is so full of poison.

I too was making another point!
---kathr4453 on 1/20/12


a careful study will show the word "Regeneration" is the word "Paliggenesia"
---Mark_V. on 1/19/12

I gave you the exact word study. Your careful examination was flawed.

The word "Paliggenesia" is from two base Greek words. The first base word is "Palin" which has the meaning anew, again, repetition. The second base word is Genesis (from Genea) which means origin, ancestry, birth.

Either way, the English meaning is "again birth". As we know the new birth is where this takes place.

However, birth from God is the implanted spirit in us. There is no reformation of our old spirit.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/20/12


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"Lazarus was not born of the Spirit..."

kathr, do you even read what I wrote? I SAID, "THAT WAS POINTING", do you know what is "pointing"? Open your eyes, if that's even possible outside the grace of God to begin with. O, I forgot, you have your "free-will" to do that for you.

Obviously, you don't even have a clue in the doctrine of Lazarus being raised from the dead by Jesus Christ, do you? Was it just child's play to what happened in John 11 and there was no spiritual teaching in that account or any other account in the Holy Scriptures?

"...the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63
---christan on 1/20/12


which means to say the Holy Spirit raised one's dead spirit to life.
---christan on 1/19/12

How can this be called birth?

If I take this statement and apply it the birth of Jesus, then God raised from death a dead Jesus living in Mary. Nobody would believe this kind of nonsense.

Rather, Jesus was implanted in Mary and that is the model we should use when we discuss the new birth. Implantation from God. Life was not in me and God gave it to me. No reformation, no resurrection, no renewal.

God creates something from absolutely nothing.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/20/12


Christan and Mark V,

Consider John 7:38-39
He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive, for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.


WOW ! ! !
there were believers who had not yet received the Spirit

Now that you know the truth, if you continue in your doctrine, you will continue in dishonesty
---James_L on 1/20/12


\\Believers in Christ have all three, body, soul, and spirit but unbelievers have only two, body and soul.\\
---Mark_Eaton on 1/19/12

I guess I didn't understand what you were saying, but now I do.

Could you explain or describe how you understand the difference between the spirit and soul of a believer? Sunstance of each?
---James_L on 1/20/12


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Born again of the Spirit, indwelled by the Spirit, sealed by the Spirit are three different events in a believer's life. Which only happens to those chosen from the foundation of the world, called, and made alive to Christ by the Spirit, indwelled by the Spirit and sealed unto the day of redemption. If spiritually dead people had faith, they could enter the kingdom of heaven without been born again of the Spirit.
"And when the Gentiles heard this, (the gospel) they were glad and glorified the Word of God, "and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" ( Acts 13:48).
God makes us alive (Eph. 2:1), gives us faith as a gift ( Eph. 2:8,9: Phil. 1:29) and grants us repentance ( 2 Tim. 2:25,26).
---Mark_V. on 1/20/12


Just like Christ demonstrated that He was God and raised Lazarus from the dead - that was pointing to "born of the Spirit" - which only God does! -
---christan on 1/19/12

Lazarus was not born of the Spirit, had he been, he would not have come out of the grave in his grave cloths where Jesus asked others to unwrap him. No one unwrapped Jesus when He rose from the dead. His grave cloths were still inside the tomb.

This corruptable must put on incorruptable, that is we must put on teh RESURRECTED Christ in us, to be Born of the Spirit of Christ. REREAD Romans 8

And when we are raised we will be raised a NEW CREATURE, and no old grave cloths will bind us.
---kathr4453 on 1/20/12


MarkE, fair enough that "regeneration" is a theological term. Even "new birth" is not Scriptural! Let's go with what Christ declared, "born of the Spirit".

I don't subscribe to "accept Christ" and you'll be born again. That's your believe. That's definitely not mine.

If according to you that your "spirit" never existed before why would Paul say "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins", which means to say the Holy Spirit raised one's dead spirit to life. Just like Christ demonstrated that He was God and raised Lazarus from the dead - that was pointing to "born of the Spirit" - which only God does! Did Lazarus asked to be raised?
---christan on 1/19/12


Paul ask, "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since you believeved."

Ccriptureshow us Cornelius first believed and THEN was filled with the Holy Spirit.

AND
Galatians 3:2
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

We receive the Holy Spirit by the hearing of faith, NOT BEFORE faith.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free, and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


No one was Baptized into Christ B4 they believed.

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling,
---kathr4453 on 1/19/12


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Mark E, a careful study will show the word "Regeneration" is the word "Paliggenesia" from the word "Ginomal" to become. The washing of Palliggenesia in (Titus 3:5) refers to the regeneration of the soul, see "Anagennao" to beget again. Which is why He washed us through regeneration and hear this, "renewal of the Holy Spirit" no genesis here, but was the renewal of the Holy Spirit, "to beget again". That's why "it was dead." Dead in trespasses and sin, and as Ephesians tells us in (2:1) God has to make you alive. The dead spirit has to come alive. It's clear, and something every born of the Spirit should know. That is why I posted it.
---Mark_V. on 1/19/12


Confirming what Jesus was teaching about spiritual regeneration in John 3:1-12.
---christan on 1/19/12

No. This is not correct. There is no regeneration. There is only new birth.

You are saying that when we are dead as the Scripture says, it is our spirit that is dead in trespasses and sins. That when we accept Christ, our spirit is made alive again. Or our spirit is "resurrected", "regenerated", or "quickened".

But Jesus did not say this. He said you must be born anew. Born from above. Born of the Spirit. Born in the sense of never existed before.

You are accepting your own understand and making Jesus a liar. You are saying, Jesus really meant regeneration and not new birth.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/19/12


How much clearer can it be?
---Mark_V. on 1/19/12

Again, your understanding is faulty.

The word translated as "regeneration" in Greek means "again genesis". Now we know that the word again means "being repeated" but what about the word genesis when used toward people?

If I were to ask you what was the genesis of your existence on Earth, what would you reply? I would reply that my genesis on Earth was my birth, of course.

So then, "repeated birth" can be substituted for the word regeneration in the Titus 3:5 verse. And as we know, the second birth is our repeated birth.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/19/12


No regeneration? what believer would say such foolish things? Seems pretty clear. That we were washed by the regeneration that the Spirit brings to all those who are born of the Spirit which happens only by the kindness and love of God. And regeneration only happens to those God has mercy on.

"But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done (only by the kindness of God) but according to His mercy (His grace) He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit"

How much clearer can it be? By God's kindness and love towards those He regenerates, Not by works of ours, but by His own mercy (Grace).
---Mark_V. on 1/19/12


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Well said Christan.
Adieu
---Poppa_Bear on 1/19/12


Was our spirit removed from our body, and then a completely different spirit inserted?
---James_L on 1/18/12

There is only one Scripture in the entire Bible that describes the body, soul, and spirit of a person.

1 Thes 5:23 "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ".

Every other reference is to either soul or spirit. I believe in Scripture, the soul and spirit are interchangeable, especially in the OT. I believe that we as Believers in Christ have all three, body, soul, and spirit but unbelievers have only two, body and soul.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/19/12


"Was our spirit removed from our body, and then a completely different spirit inserted?" JamesL

Let's turn to the authoritative Word of God for guidance. Ephesians 2:1 will tell you that your spirit was not removed but was DEAD. Because of Adam's disobedience we inherited a dead spirit that has no communication with God. This is how best Paul reminded the Ephesian Christian of their spiritual state before the Holy Spirit gave them life.

"And you hath he quickened, WHO WERE DEAD in trespasses and sins." Confirming what Jesus was teaching about spiritual regeneration in John 3:1-12. Without the Spiritual regeneration by the Holy Spirit, you cannot see His kingdom, let alone even enter.
---christan on 1/19/12


Jack b, how can a person have faith before he is born of the Spirit? Which would mean he believes by faith without the Holy Spirit, who testifies of Christ to our hearts. It would make every person a believer while at enmity against God.
Faith in Christ is a gift of God ( Eph. 2:8) We are not saved by faith but by grace "through faith." Unbelievers don't have it.
If a sinner is to desire redemption through Christ, he must receive a new disposition, for he is at enmity against God. That enmity must be removed before he can have any desire to do God's will. He must be born again from above (John 3:3). Only the supernatural life-giving power of the Holy Spirit will ever cause him to do that which is spiritually good.
---Mark_V. on 1/19/12


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\\We are not regenerated, renovated, re-invented, restored, remade, or metamorphosized.

This new creation did not exist before it was born of the Spirit...\\
---Mark_Eaton on 1/18/12


I think I understand what you are saying, but that begs the question:

Was our spirit removed from our body, and then a completely different spirit inserted?

If so, consider this:

If our spirit is removed from our body, then our body would be dead.

Are you suggesting we die physically at conversion? And then come back to life with a different spirit?
---James_L on 1/18/12


Where does regeneration stand in regards to faith?
---James_L on 1/17/12

Nowhere.

I would like the word regeneration removed from our vocabulary in relationship to Salvation.

We are not regenerated, renovated, re-invented, restored, remade, or metamorphosized.

We are born new of the Spirit. This new creation did not exist before it was born of the Spirit and did not get transformed in any way from the old man. It is entirely new.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/18/12


Calvinism is a sham

Scriptures used out of context all over their doctrine
---James_L on 1/18/12


aka, it should matter to us whether we fear God or not and hopefully by the wonderful grace of God, we may never adopt the view of the antinomians. Be encouraged by the words and admonishment of Solomon,

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction." Proverbs 1:7

Even this "fear of the Lord" spoken of by Solomon will only come if God works in your heart through regeneration to fear Him. You see, the Gospel of Jesus Christ comes with hope and never one of hopelessness. Only God can teach us, aka, only God.

And may God show mercy and grace unto our wretched souls. Amen.
---christan on 1/18/12


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//Why can you not simply find what the scripture teaches?//

because, in totality, i cannot. and, i did not make that determination, so take it up with who did.

and, the three or four here that are indignant of those who can't, don't even understand their own school of thought.

maybe...just...maybe, i thought that Calvinists (of all people) in light of ALL scripture would show mercy or at least a little patience. but, that is not my experience. they are usually arrogant and consumed with their own selves that i wonder if they understand all scripture and not just some cleverly placed and used scripture. (e.g. John Calvin)
---aka on 1/18/12


"All faith has to do with christ. All are born of the spirit when they accept Christ by faith" francis

Every time you speak of such lies, you add on the plagues in your unbelief of God's Word. That's because your statement is contradicted by Jesus Christ when He declared,

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44

Show me just one verse where a conversion of your kind is accounted for in the Holy Bible. That a sinner says, I accept Jesus Christ and he is saved. Paul's conversion (Acts 9) doesn't even come close to your lies about "accepting" Christ. Your doctrine is poison to many souls.
---christan on 1/18/12


If faith were of ourselves, and a prerequsite to being born again by God's spirit, then that would place salvation into the hands of man, however salvation is strictly a gift God by grace alone. Eph.8:2f

of course, I hold the view that when one is born again, that person becomes part of God's family forever, thro there are those that believe our salvation is determined by our obedience or works of righteousness.
---lee1538 on 1/17/12


//i can't. you are going to have to talk to a calvinist for that.

Why bother to ask a Calvinist?

Why can you not simply find what the scripture teaches?

Are you afraid what scripture teaches will be the same thing a Calvinist would tell you?
---lee1538 on 1/17/12


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//aka can you give scripture reference where it says that you already have salvation in God before life, death and resurrection?// anon

i can't. you are going to have to talk to a calvinist for that.

again, christan, as i understand it, old or new,, our life here does not seem to matter. is it things like our faith predetermined?
---aka on 1/17/12


Where does regeneration stand in regards to faith?

first faith, then regeneration.

Romans 4:21-25 shows that we are justified after we have faith.

Romans 4:5 says that God justifies the UN godly

When we are regenerated, we are godly. SO, if we are made godly before faith, then God would be justifying the GODLY, contrary to scripture
---James_L on 1/17/12


I would say the Bible does not directly answer this question. But a person in Christ is "a new creation, old things have passed away, behold, all things have become new," we have in 2 Corinthians 5:17. And Paul says, "that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory."(Ephesians 1:12) So, I believe that a person is born of the Holy Spirit when the person trusts in Jesus and is "a new creation". And I understand a baby is new, even though the baby is not perfect and mature (c: And God continues what He has started in us > Philippians 1:6. We are "a work in progress", then.
---Bill_willa6989 on 1/17/12


//...you already have salvation in God before life, death, and resurrection, what then is the purpose of the Jesus Christ? aka on 1/16/12//

aka can you give scripture reference where it says that you already have salvation in God before life, death and resurrection?

The purpose of Jesus Christ is that He shed His blood for our sins so that we might be reconciled to God THROUGH Him. Before this, people were judged by the law. Now we're under Grace because Jesus was crucified, shed his blood for our sins and rose from the dead. We have reconciliation now with God THROUGH Jesus. No Jesus, no reconciliation to God. Which would bring us back to living under the law.
---anon on 1/17/12


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All faith has to do with christ. All are born of the spirit when they accept Christ by faith

Whether you accept this:
Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed, it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

OR this

Mark 15:24 And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.

It is all faith in christ
---francis on 1/17/12


aka, we must be reminded that "salvation in God" is only through His grace by FAITH 100%. The OT saints died in the FAITH that God dispensed to them in similar fashion as He does with all His people, chosen to salvation.

It was through FAITH from God that OT saints believed they were sinners and repented to God and made the sacrifice God demanded of them in the form of a sheep without blemish - which was a concealment in the OT of the final "Lamb of God" Jesus Christ that was prepared before the foundations of the world to come. Now that Jesus is revealed and "finished" His mission, there is no need for anymore blood sacrifice. All taught clearly in Hebrews.
---christan on 1/17/12


For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God. Eph 2:8 (RSV)
Having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. 1PET. 1:23
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. Tts.3:5
We are saved by the Father's grace, through the faith of Jesus, in accordance with His word. It is His Spirit that both prompts and empowers our acknowledgment and confession of that fact. For "no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit." 1Cr 12:3
---josef on 1/17/12


After. "That if you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and will believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart man believes onto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made onto salvation. How then will they call on him whom they have not believed? and how will they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how will they hear without a preacher? Therefore faith from hearing, and the hearing through a word of God." Rm.10:9,10,14,17.
---Eloy on 1/17/12


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there really is no debate. with the scripture that Christan presented, i 'd have a hard time arguing before.

christan brings up a good point "If you already have faith in Christ before the Spirit gives you life, what then is the purpose of the Holy Spirit?"

but on the other extreme: If you already have salvation in God before life, death, and resurrection, what then is the purpose of the Jesus Christ?
---aka on 1/16/12


faith comes after conversion.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Eph. 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.


Salvation is by grace alone, not something we have done or given intellectual assent to. Eph. 2:8-10
---lee1538 on 1/16/12


The question is a wonderful one until you say, "Before faith in Christ or after faith in Christ?" This is how you sound silly. If you already have faith in Christ before the Spirit gives you life, what then is the purpose of the Holy Spirit? This is the most erroneous doctrine of the "free-will" about the Holy Spirit.

According to John who declared, "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Clearly declaring the spirit man is born of the will of God. Then faith is applied that the sinner may belief in Christ.
---christan on 1/16/12


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