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Christ Imparted Or Imputed

Is the righteousness of Christ imparted or imputed to the believer?

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 ---lee1538 on 1/20/12
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Francis(1)

Romans 5:20
The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

Romans 7:4-6
So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
---JackB on 1/27/12


Francis: Having the law cannot make us righteous.
Rom 9:31,32 "Isreal, which followed after law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith..."

You say SDA's are "enabled to obey".
Then WHY do SDA"s STILL disobey?

Consider Paul Phil 3:6-9 "touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless". But he counts this as "DUNG" rejecting HIS OWN righteousness, and wanting only the righteousness through faith of Christ.

In Christ we're set free from sin.
BUT building up the law in your life makes you a transgressor (sinner) Gal 2:18. And he who sins is a servant of sin (John 8:34).

---Haz27 on 1/27/12


Lest anyone should relate this doctrine of total victory over sin to some kind of holy flesh doctrine, we should hasten to add this footnote: all the sanctifying and perfecting available to sinful human beings is received as a gift from God and is made possible only through the life and death of Jesus. His sinless life and atoning death is imputed to the believer to justify him for sins committed, but His victorious life is also imparted to the Christian to keep him from falling into sin.
---francis on 1/27/12


Craig, I see your insistance that the truth we give you is wrong and that the passages we give are not true, and continue each day to fight against God having the right to choose whom He will's, I put the same question to you,

"what is so terrible for God to choose whom He desires to choose as His children?" I see you and others fight against God having that right to choose. Why do you insist against His rights?"

He is Almighty God after all, but you want your rights over God's. Everyday you fight for your rights. You, a sinner, having rights over God who is Omnipotent. Implying that sinful man has power over God and that sinful man chooses his own destination when God already knows who are His children.
---Mark_V. on 1/27/12


2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith, prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that JESUS CHRIST IS IN YOU, except ye be reprobates?

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

What Jesus did on the cross enables us to keep the law( IMPARTED RIGHTEOUSNESS) because we are partakers of the divine nature / christ is in us.
What Jesus did on the corss enables us to be creditied with his perfect sinless life ( IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS)
---francis on 1/27/12




---Haz27 on 1/26/12
What could the law not do for us because we were too weak in the flesh to keep it? It could not save us.
Because we could not keep it due to the weakness of the flesh, what did God do? He sent Jesus to obey the law perfectly in the flesh. He condemned sin in the flesh by total victory over it.
What did His victory in the flesh make possible for us? "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us." It enabled us to obey.

How did His victory in the flesh make it possible for us to obey? By the miracle of conversion, which changes our walk from the flesh to the Spirit. Then Christ in us, through the Spirit, imparts victory over sin to our lives.
---francis on 1/26/12


Francis, see Rom 8:3-4
"what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son... He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us..."

Our own weak efforts at righteousness through law keeping will never exceed that of scribes/pharasees.
The SDA's own disobedience of commandments proves it.
Even Paul said "NOT having MINE OWN righteousness, which is of the law" (Phil 3:9.)

But SDA's rebuild the law in their lives, making themselves transgressors (sinners) and frustrate the grace of God (Gal 2:18-21).
This disobedience SDA's need to repent from or God will spew them out of His mouth.

---Haz27 on 1/26/12


"Just like a scratched record, you two (Mark and Christan) are stuck on the same 3 or 4 "lyrics" of scripture..." CraigA

If you cannot get past the Sovereignty of God, whatever you have learned and think you understand/believe are based on deception, period. So you think you know everything?

What were the prophets and Jesus doing when they were walking on this earth? You have read the Holy Scriptures for yourself (i think), weren't they like "scratched records" day in and day out?

Proverbs declares, "Forsake the foolish, and live, and go in the way of understanding. Wise men lay up knowledge: but the mouth of the foolish is near destruction."
---christan on 1/26/12


"But are all laws found in the Old Testament applicable to the Christian?" lee1538

Paul declared, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31, "Because the law worketh wrath"

Yes, the Christian establish the law by the faith God freely gave to His people that they will believe in Jesus Christ, who was the fulfillment of the law that demanded death for sin. That's why He came to offer Himself up for the ransom that was on the head of every mankind, death. However, Scripture declares, "...He shall save His people from their sins." and that, Jesus spoke His last breath, "It is finished."
---christan on 1/26/12


The law can only condemn us!
---Jackb on 1/26/12
HMM
then explain these:
Deuteronomy 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, IF WE OBSERVE to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Proverbs 7:2 Keep my commandments, and live, and my law as the apple of thine eye.

My point is that the law of God does MUCH more than condemn. It is the way to walk in. AGREED?

Deuteronomy 8:6 Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.

---francis on 1/26/12




Lets us honestly compare these two set of verses. On the surface do they not contradict each other?

James 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God. ( NOT JUSTIFIED BY WORKS)

COMPARE

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
(JUSTIFIED BY WORKS)


Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. ( NOT JUSTIFIED BY WORKS)

COMPARE

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
(JUSTIFIED BY WORKS)
---francis on 1/26/12


Francis: SDA doctrine says obedience to law is love for God and proves salvation. Yet the SDA's FAIL to obey. See the contradiction?

Correct, sin is transgression of law, but the law was NOT MADE for the righteous (Christians), but for...ungodly and sinners (1Tim1:9).
And what the law says it says to those UNDER IT (Rom 3:19)
The law of Spirit of life in Christ SETS FREE from the law (Rom 8:2).
So, where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION (sin) Rom 4:15

It's Christ's obedience that God see in Christians (Rom 5:19).
Our works to believe on Jesus (John 6:29) is what we are asked to do.

But SDA doctrine teaches to disobey God by doubting His promise of salvation by GRACE ALONE.
---Haz27 on 1/26/12


JackB //Yes - we are to obey the law, but doing so does NOT make us righteous nor does it gain us eternal life.

But are all laws found in the Old Testament applicable to the Christian?

In general, the law functions as a guide for our Christian walk.

"Although believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned, yet it is of great use to them as a rule of life informing them of God's will and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly, ...they may come to further conviction of,humiliation of and hatred againist sin, ...a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ and the perfection of His obedience....."Westminister confessions XIX,6
---lee1538 on 1/26/12


I think its been said 1000 times Francis and you dont seem to understand. Yes - we are to obey the law, but doing so does NOT make us righteous nor does it gain us eternal life. Only Jesus Christ does that! Our obedience to the law is done out of love for God and others. We cant obey the law to gain eternal life. If we are doing so then we have fallen from grace. The law can only condemn us!

Therefore you cannot use the law to condemn a believer in Christ.
---Jackb on 1/26/12


Lets us honestly compare these two set of verses. On the surface do they not contradict each other?

James 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God. ( NOT JUSTIFIED BY WORKS)

COMPARE

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
(JUSTIFIED BY WORKS)


Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. ( NOT JUSTIFIED BY WORKS)

COMPARE

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
(JUSTIFIED BY WORKS)


---francis on 1/26/12


Jackb..good post, but how does it fit into the blog topic?

Your scriptures do not support SDA's mixing grace+law.
---Haz27 on 1/25/12
If we are not keeping the law, then we are living in sin

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
---francis on 1/26/12


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Just like a scratched record, you two (Mark and Christan) are stuck on the same 3 or 4 "lyrics" of scripture and you refuse to move on to hear the rest of the song.

You have many brothers and sister in Christ here who have tried to help you, but yet you refuse to listen. Is it fear or pride that keeps you from opening your hearts? How many times does scripture need to declare Gods love for ALL of this world for it to sink in?

The election is for those who are IN CHRIST. Not for those who havent even heard of him yet. You cannot be "elected" until you are candidate!
---CraigA on 1/26/12


"kathr, If God had them picked out already, there would be no need for a Redeemer or Jesus who died on the cross for ALL. just read John 3:16." shira4368

O creatures of the dust, who are you to decide what God's plan should be. Scripture has declared, "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be Holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." Ephesians 1:4,5

Whether you like it or not, it doesn't change His plan of salvation by sovereign grace through election one bit. What an awesome plan!
---christan on 1/26/12


Shira, they were chosen by God to be His children from before the foundation of the world. And since all descendants of Adam, with the exception of Christ, who is eternal, everyone born is born dead in trespasses and sins. They (the one's chosen) need a Savior. Salvation is all of God from beginning to end.

Can I ask you, "what is so terrible for God to choose whom He so desires to choose as His children?" I see you and others fight against God doing what He so chooses, and I just wanted to know why you do? I do love you, and I never felt that feeling most of you feel about God. I have always felt Him as Sovereign and Almighty God. What is it that restricts Almighty God from been Almighty God?
---Mark_V. on 1/26/12


Francis, the purpose of the first 3 1/2 chapters of Romans is to prove all men guilty!

Romans 3:21
But NOW the righteousness of God without the law is manifested...

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Gal 3:17
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect

Gal 3:24,25
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster
---JackB on 1/26/12


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kathr, If God had them picked out already, there would be no need for a Redeemer or Jesus who died on the cross for ALL. just read John 3:16.
---shira4368 on 1/25/12


AMEN Shira!! That's exactly how I feel too.
---kathr4453 on 1/26/12


Francis, it's clear we both read scriptures so your allegation I don't is not relevant.
But does scripture support SDA's Grace+Law doctrine OR does it support Grace and not works of law?
Your failure to support SDA doctrine proves it.

You argue obedience to law BUT SDA's FAIL to obey. SDA's disobedience contradicts their doctrine.

Your scriptures do not support SDA's mixing grace+law.
Instead SDA's are disobedient in that they do mix Grace+Law Gal 2:18-21.
---Haz27 on 1/25/12


"So should one who is saved by grace also COVET? or should one who is saved by grace keep the law and NOT COVET?" francis

How's one who's saved by grace lust for what you belief in? Your's a profaned salvation and you think the elect of God wants anything to do with what you have after God has set him free from the curse of the law by grace? Your application of Romans 7:7 is just out of whack.

As for Romans 6:15, the elect of God are not antinomians as you would like to even suggest. And that's because God's Spirit will make sure of that till the day he returns to the Lord. Isn't it wonderful to come to the knowledge and belief that an elect of God is saved by grace 100%?
---christan on 1/25/12


But in scriptures we see SDA's do disobey God by mixing grace and law. This is being lukewarm which God rebukes in love and calls for repentance.
---Haz27 on 1/25/12

All i ask is that you THINK maybe even READ the bible before you make such commants.

Let me show you how unintellegent your statement is:

Romans 7:7 for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

So should one who is saved by grace also COVET?

or should one who is saved by grace keep the law and NOT COVET?

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
---francis on 1/25/12


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Samuel //But obeying GOD out of love is not legalism.

But is there not a difference between obeying law and obeying Jesus? After all, Jesus could ask you to do something besides what we see in the law such as answering a calling, helping a particular needy person, or witnessing to someone?

If we obey Jesus, do we observe the Sabbath as well as other laws not mandated to the Christian?

And do we refrain from lighting a fire to cook our food and heat our homes on the Sabbath?

Or is only selective OT laws applicable to the church as determined by Adventists?

Appreciate your opinion.
---lee1538 on 1/25/12


kathr, If God had them picked out already, there would be no need for a Redeemer or Jesus who died on the cross for ALL. just read John 3:16.
---shira4368 on 1/25/12


Francis: You occassionally resort to ridicule as a response. This is not an appropriate answer to challenges. If you can't explain contradictions in SDA doctrine then just say so and claim that you believe it regardless of the contradictions.

The SDA doctrine that obedience to commandments is love and therefore proof of salvation whilst we see the disobedience from SDAs themselves, is a contradiction deserving to be challenged. Especially when you repeatedly argue this SDA doctrine here on CN.

But in scriptures we see SDA's do disobey God by mixing grace and law. This is being lukewarm which God rebukes in love and calls for repentance.
---Haz27 on 1/25/12


Legalists need to repent and submit to God's righteousness.
Haz27

But obeying GOD out of love is not legalism. Legalism is obeying to be saved. We teach you obey because you love from being saved. It almost seems you are saying that those who are saved should not obey and love others to show they are saved.

Agree, however it is the work of God's Spirit within us that creates in us any desire to do works of the law. Lee

I agree.

No, Samuel we do not make ourselve righteous by being obedient to law.
lee1538

Since I did not say that or agree with it. I have no problem saying you are right. We are made righteous by JESUS CHRIST. We do right things because of the love in our heart from the HOLY SPIRIT.
---Samuel on 1/25/12


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And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.


Also see in no way does this verse suggest God gives anyone faith to believe....seeing the word "IF".

If God already picked out who He wants, no need for a verse as this.
---kathr4453 on 1/25/12


It is so presumptuous to say the "US" here is "US" ELECT. US means teh whole human race.

Just remember verses that say, not only US but THEM ALSO....


Romans 11:22-23
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity, but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
---kathr4453 on 1/25/12


All SDA's I know are disobedient. ---Haz27 on 1/24/12
Nothing intelligent form you. No suprise here

Psalms 24:4-5NLT Only those whose hands and hearts are pure,who do not worship idols and never tell lies They will receive the LORD's blessing and have a right relationship with God their savior.

---lee1538 on 1/24/12
Psalms 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart, who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

does not matter what translation you use, it is the same. This right standing or righteousness which is the same doe snot coem from man but God
---francis on 1/25/12


Samuel
(First John 2 points out doing the Ten Commandments is living in love.)

No Samuel and please forgive me. But Its not the Ten Commandments were talking about!
Its all of the law and all the prophets. Everything that has been written and spoken from the beginning!

And its not doing them, is living in love.
Please understand this!
Its living in love, is doing them!

Mat_7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

(If you do not do them it is because you do not love.)
Again, its if you do not love your brother!
1Jn_4:20 If a man say, I love God!
Peace!
---TheSeg on 1/25/12


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Samuel, the Ten Commandments represented who God is. Isaiah 6:3, "And one cried unto another, and said, HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory." The angels never cried, "Love, love, love".

Be reminded first that God is HOLY, HOLY, HOLY - the angels acknowledging the Trinity - the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

God's love is rooted in His Holiness where He demonstrates His mercy and grace to only those whom He loved from eternity. How? "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." This is the the ultimate act of God's love.

Does God then love everyone? Scripture clearly says NO!
---christan on 1/25/12


The legalists justify their works of law doctrine as obedience out of love and without such obedience one is unsaved.
But yet they are disobedient to the commandments.

All SDA's I know are disobedient. Even Francis here concedes SDA's are disobedient and need foot washing for disobedience. According to their own doctrine they do not love God.

But according to God they are disobedient in that they rebuild the law in their lives making themselves transgressors and frustrating the grace of God. Gal 2:18-21.

Legalists need to repent and submit to God's righteousness instead.
---Haz27 on 1/24/12


Samuel //When we are born again we have the HOLY SPIRIT working in us to love and others.
---
Agree, however it is the work of God's Spirit within us that creates in us any desire to do works of the law.

Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

No, Samuel we do not make ourselve righteous by being obedient to law.

Gal. 2:16 Knowing a man is not justified (declared righteous)by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
---lee1538 on 1/24/12


Francis - Psalms 24:4-5 does not imply imparted righteousness.

Consider the more modern versions

Psalms 24:4-5NLT Only those whose hands and hearts are pure,who do not worship idols and never tell lies They will receive the LORD's blessing and have a right relationship with God their savior.

24:4-5 NIV He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to an idol or swear by what is false. He will receive blessing from the LORD and vindication from God his Saviour.

(24:4-5)JB He whose hands are clean, whose heart is pure, whose soul does not pay homeage to worthless thins, and who never swears to a lie. The blessing of Yahweh is his, and vindication from God his savior.
---lee1538 on 1/24/12


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When we are born again we have the HOLY SPIRIT working in us to love GOD and others. The Ten commandments are the outworking of that love.

The Righteouness of CHRIST i imputed to us. But the love causes us to do right as we surrender to the power of the HOLY SPIRIT and die to self so as to live to GOD.

First John 2 points out doing the Ten Commandments is living in love. If you do not do them it is because you do not love. If you do not love you are not of GOD.

It all starts with GOD for he so loved the world that he gave John 3:16
---Samuel on 1/24/12


Reminds me of:
Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
Luk 10:29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
What you dont know?

Did you read the things Samuel was singing about before, 2 Samuel 22:21 and 22:25?
Do you think he believed in God or had faith in him?
But moreover!
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands, and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh_20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Mat_18:15
---TheSeg on 1/24/12


more scripture to consider:
Psalms 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart, who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

Again righteousness imparted by God for works.

I think what needs to happen here is that those who are TRUELY christian will take time to study this, rather than just post what they have always believed. There is nothing wrong with saying that something is new or unfamiliar.
---francis on 1/24/12


Poppa_Bear Cinsider more scriptures:

2 Samuel 22:21 "The LORD rewarded me" according to my righteousness: according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.

2 Samuel 22:25 Therefore the "LORD hath recompensed me" according to my righteousness, according to my cleanliness "in his sight."

"LORD hath recompensed me" NOT MAN. the Lord
"in his sight" not in man's sight

Notice in both cases that it is the LORD God who recompensed or rewarded according to MY righteousness in HIS sight. THIS REWARDING IS NOT DONE BY MAN BUT BY GOD

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just BEFORE GOD, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
---francis on 1/24/12


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Someone talked a little about a man in the land of Uz.
I would ask him. Do you think Satan doesnt see what God is doing?
How else would Satan know he hath but a short time?

This is God talking! About what Satan saw!
Job_1:9-10! Clearly God is already in Job life!
What if God hadnt come to Adam and bless him.
Would Adam have known God?
Joh_1:18, 1Jn_4:19!

I dont even like telling people, you have to believe.
Why? Because clearly, you cant believe unless he draws you, Joh_6:44!
So when you see people that dont believe, understand this!
But, when you see people, who say they believe.
But add some part they had in it.
Forgive them, but understand this too!
Peace
---TheSeg on 1/24/12


Two scenarios will happen on the Day of the Lord as prophesied by Christ. One with the reprobates who will bring before them their filthy rags and the other God's elect, who will have no memory of their good works which was already prepared for them by God in Jesus Christ.

Reprobates: "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" Matthew 7:22

God's elect: "Then shall they also answer Him, saying, Lord, when saw we Thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto Thee?" Matthew 25:44
---christan on 1/24/12


So then you see brethren, its not by the works of the law, but by the works of faith.

Abraham didnt offer up this son on his own behave!
It was God that asked Abraham for his son.
Abraham, believing the promise that God gave him!
Believed God!
And this was imputed on him as righteousness!

Yes, it was a work, but not a work of obedience!
It was a work of faith, Abraham believed God!
Having faith in the things God had said, would come to pass!
Just as we, should believe in the things Christ is saying!

Yes, keep the law!
But also, keep it out of the hands of children.
For they are not yet old enough, to use it law wisely.
---TheSeg on 1/23/12


Regarding James 2:14-24, we see our works in John 6:29.
Jesus was asked what WORKS should we do. He answered "BELIEVE ON HIM WHOM HE HATH SENT" John 6:29

Some doubt God's promise of salvation in Christ. Such say they have faith but lack the works of believing on Jesus. Instead they insist on including other "works" (self-righteous works of law). This is being lukewarm and doubting God's promise.

God's salvation is complete in Christ. How else would the criminal on the cross be saved?
But legalists doubt God's promise by including works of law in salvation. They rebuild the law in their lives thus making themselves TRANSGRESSORS (sinners) and frustrating the grace of God Gal 2:18-21
---Haz27 on 1/23/12


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Thanks Lee, I do like reading everyones thoughts even though I may not agree with everyone. I try to keep in mind Christianity is a marriage, as in my own marriage, I am constantly striving to nurture, strengthen and re prioritize my attentions and energies to make that relationship what I intended it to be when I gave my vows. I made a covenant with my wife on our wedding day and now out of love, not compulsion I fulfill that covenant to her and God, for better or worse and that promise is what my marriage is built on. Even when my wife may not satisfy every jot and tittle, my love supplies what she may be lacking, just as Christ does for us.
---Poppa_Bear on 1/23/12


//This is in the context of man before man, a horizontal proof, the vertical proof between God and man is still justification through faith.

I truly like Poppa_Bear reply here as it truly explains what our reasoning should be.

Thanks!
---lee1538 on 1/23/12


Works and Faith, I can understand how some of you look at this as two separate things. But only because you dont understand what being said.

Some time ago I gave someone a question about the sixth and seventh commandments.
Because, someone said:
James_2:14 and James_2:24
Let me ask it again, because someone said, Romans_2:13!
As if to say see, this is saying do the law!

Deu_5:17 kill.
Deu_5:18 adultery.

Lev_20:10adulterer and, adulteress shall surely be put to death.

When was the last time you stoned someone, you havent?
Well, then you are not doing the law!
As James is saying! Jas_2:10
Try not to twist the truth.
If you dont understand say, I dont understand!
Or answer it!
Peace
---TheSeg on 1/23/12


James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
This is in the context of man before man, a horizontal proof, the vertical proof between God and man is still justification through faith. If not, then the bible is constantly arguing with itself. If you follow your implied reasoning, works justify us. Unless you have another angle on these verses. I am extending this observation in love, not trying to be condescending. Maybe give me your feed back if you dont see where I am coming from and we can dialog.
In His grip
---Poppa_Bear on 1/22/12


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But a genuine faith will produce good works.

So in a sense good works are proof that one has faith in the proper thing.
---JackB on 1/23/12


what does this verse say to us?


James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
---francis on 1/22/12


Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job, and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
---francis on 1/22/12


JackB - neither will they ever see Jesus if they are led to believe that salvation is by works or that one must becomes righteous by obedience to law to merit salvation. Such belief only leads to frustration and disillusionment.

Grace to the legalists is only a provision granted to believers that enables them to obey the law and thus merit eternal salvation.

In effect, Jesus cannot be the savior to those who are bound by law rather than justified by faith.

There is therefore no condemnation for those in Christ. Romans 8,1
---lee1538 on 1/22/12


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I think what Francis is saying is that we must remain repentant and that is true. But what we dont have a right to do is judge our brothers and sisters in Christ as "lost" or "deceived" because they dont believe the exact same doctrine that we do.

This place is really becoming fruitless. Have you guys really stepped back and taken a look at the venom being spewed around here? The lost will never accept Jesus because of any words from these blogs. All theyll see is judgment and pride - not love and humility.

They wont see Jesus.
---JackB on 1/22/12


--christan on 1/22/12
james 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God. (FAITH)
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
( WORKS)

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.( WORKS)

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. (FAITH)

---francis on 1/22/12


It is a principle of the law of God, IF a creature will keep the law, and obey it entirely, he shall not be condemned, but shall be approved, and live for ever.

This does not affirm any one ever has thus lived in this world, but it is an affirmation of a great general principle of law, that IF a creature is justified BY the law, the obedience MUST BE ENTIRE AND PERPETUAL.

If such were the case, there would be no ground of condemnation, man would be saved by the law.

This passage is designed to meet a common sentiment of the Jewish teachers, that all who became hearers and listeners to the law would be saved.

Believers may be justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (3:24).
---lee1538 on 1/22/12


The Seg asked you a good question Francis. Why don't you submit to God's righteousness (Rom 10:3)?

Francis quotes Rom 2:13 incorrectly to support legalism.
Instead we see Rom 5:19 "by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous".
It's Christ's obedience God sees in us.

SDA's seem to fail to see Christ within themsleves. Instead they prefer to rebuild the law in their lives thus making themselves a TRANSGRESSOR (sinner) and frustrating the grace of God Gal 2:18-21.
---Haz27 on 1/22/12


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---Haz27 on 1/22/12
---TheSeg on 1/22/12

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,

COMPARE

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
---francis on 1/22/12


francis, you take every "evil opportunity" to wedge in your comments in Scripture, like the one you quoted from 1 John 3:7. If you want to quote from Scripture, do it right and not add your commentary in brackets like it is part of the Scripture when it is not. By doing so, you are practicing deception and I hope you realize that.

This is what 1 John 3:7 says without your commentary in between, " Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous." The "practicing of righteousness" here simply implies one's faith in Jesus Christ whose righteousness is what God sees in the Christian. And not by the obedience of the law.
---christan on 1/22/12


francis, you take every opportunity to wedge in your comments from Scripture, like the one you quoted from 1 John 3:7. If you want to quote from Scripture, do it right and not add your commentary in brackets like it's part of Scripture when it is not. By doing so, you are practicing deception and I hope you realize that.

This is what 1 John 3:7 says without your commentary in between, " Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous." The "practicing of righteousness" here simply implies one's faith in Jesus Christ whose righteousness is what God sees in the Christian, and not by the obedience of the law as you vehemently suggest.
---christan on 1/22/12


Francis incorrectly said:
"One by faith IMPUTED
One by works IMPARTED"

But when Jesus was asked what WORKS should we do he answered "BELIEVE ON HIM WHOM HE HATH SENT" John 6:29

And this is confirmed in Rom 3:21-22
"now the righteousness of God WITHOUT the law is manifest...which is BY FAITH of Jesus Christ unto all that BELIEVE"
So we see our works (believe on Jesus) imputes righteousness.

And consider 1John3:7 in terms of how God sees believers. I no longer live but Christ lives in me Gal 2:20.
My life is hid with Christ Col 3:3.
This is how God saw the CRIMINAL on the cross who called Jesus Lord.





---Haz27 on 1/22/12


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I know it's hard for you to see francis!
But what you're doing is holding the law over your brothers, instead of Christ!
But, what you don't see is where you're standing.
You're standing on the very law, you say you're upholding!
You're not upholding it, you are stepping on it. Saying this is not as holy as it looks!
If you were really looking at it, you would see how holy and just and good it is!
Not stepping on it and saying, see if I can, then many one can!

If you really understood the law, you would keep it where it belongs!
Holy, sacred, just and good, but you can't see this right!
You have become blinded by your own self-righteousness.
TheSeg
---TheSeg on 1/22/12


1 John 3:7 Amplified Bible (AMP)
Boys (lads), let no one deceive and lead you astray. He who practices righteousness [who is upright, conforming to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action, living a consistently conscientious life] is righteous, even as He is righteous.

I think we can see that some here are clearly decieved to beleive that that those who do what is lawful and right are not righteous. DISPITE a clear biblical warning not to be decieved in that manner

It cannot get any clearer than that
DO NOT BE DECIEVED!!!!!!
---francis on 1/22/12


Christan correctly warns against lukewarm doctrine of SDA's "imparted" righteousness (grace + law).

Unless our righteousness exceeds scribes/pharasees we cannot enter kingdom of God.
But even Francis concedes SDA's fail this obedience.

Instead we PUT ON righteousness Eph 6:14. It is a gift Rom 5:17. It is NOT by our own works of righteousness Tit 3:5.
Phil 3:9 Not having my own righteousness which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ

1John2:29 Everyone that does righteousness is BORN OF HIM.
1John5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is BORN OF GOD.
We are servants of righteousness (Rom 6:18), NOT through the law, but through righteousness of faith Rom 4:13
---Haz27 on 1/21/12


francis, I would like to believe you, really I would.
But, with me, it's more the things you say, than the law.
You keep telling everyone they must keep the law.
And they keep telling you, no it's not by the deeds of the law.
Then you come back with, well Christ said keep my commandments.
In this you are saying, I keep them or try to.
But, it makes no difference to me!

Now you've come up with this imparted righteousness.
Again, as if to say a man, any man plays some part in his righteousness!
Saying imparted righteousness is in the bible.
Where it's written, as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one!

Rom_3:21-22!
Rom_10:3! When will you, submit?
Peace
---TheSeg on 1/21/12


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""Imparted righteousness" Although not found in the bible (LIKE TRINITY or RAPTURE) is defined by doctrine" francis

Good for you and Scripture also declares, "If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book." Revelation 22:18

If Deuteronomy 6:25, 1 John 3:7 & Romans 2:13 understanding is according to yours, than Paul contradicts not only himself but God. Paul declared, "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Romans 3:20

Scripture never contradict Scripture, however Scripture contradicts your erroneous understanding.
---christan on 1/21/12


---TheSeg on 1/20/12
Good question
Imputed righteous is very clearly defined by words in the bible:

"Imparted righteousness" Although not found in the bible (LIKE TRINITY or RAPTURE) is defined by doctrine

Deuteronomy 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if WE OBSERVE to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: HE THAT DOETH righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

COMPARE

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus
---francis on 1/21/12


Just when I thought a character from the Looney Tunes have come to life, another one pops up. Make up your minds, it's either you're saved by grace or by works. You can't have it both ways! That's a perversion of the Holy Scripture in the highest order. Such "lukewarm" doctrine have a dire consequence on Judgement Day.

Therefore, harken unto the warning words of Christ on that Day, "So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth." Revelation 3:16
---christan on 1/21/12


Both, because they are able to share a simular meaning. "Impart" means "to part or to give something to someone", and "impute" means "to count, account or attach something to someone". Example, "My words are imparted (ie: given) here", and "My words are imputed (ie: accounted) to me."
---Eloy on 1/21/12


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"Is the righteousness of Christ imparted or imputed to the believer? lee" Both.
"[The Father] hath made Him [Jesus, to be] sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." 2Cr 5:21
That righteousness is both 'imparted' (made known, disclosed, bestowed, and granted to us to share in). As well as 'imputed', (attribute, or ascribe) to us. For "The righteousness of God [which is] by [the] faith of Jesus Christ [is] 'unto all and upon all' them that believe:" Rom 3:22
---josef on 1/20/12


God credits to us righteous when we accept his promises (JESUS CHRIST) by faith
Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD, and he counted it to him for righteousness. THIS IS IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS

But God also credits to us righteousness when we do what is lawful and right. this is IMPARTED RIGHTEOUSNESS. It reflects the divine nature of God in us (2 Peter 1:3-4, 2 Corinthians 13:5)

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Please note, that the offering up of isaac, and the believe that God would give him a son are two distinct events both of which are credited to Abraham as righteousness.

One by faith IMPUTED
One by works IMPARTED
---francis on 1/20/12


If righteousness remains merely imputed (a pile of dung covered with snow, in Luther's tasteful phrase), then we bring all our old nastiness with us into the World to Come.

This would truly make a hell of Heaven.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/21/12


francis where does the bible say RIGHTEOUSNESS is IMPARTED?
I found RIGHTEOUSNESS is IMPUTED!

What did Christ say to do, when you think, you have done all those things which are commanded you? We are to say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
This is not easy to do. Is it?
For some it is easier to believe, we have done all those things which are commanded us.

Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
There was a certain rich man, which had a steward, and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

Yet, the Lord commended him, a common thief.
Act_11:8-9!
---TheSeg on 1/20/12


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IMPUTED
Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD, and he counted it to him for righteousness.


IMPARTED
Deuteronomy 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
---francis on 1/20/12


Now I know Looney Tunes is not only a cartoon but also a real life character.

It's so clear that there's only ONE righteousness that God sees that pleases Him it's found in His Son Jesus Christ. As Lee rightly quoted from the Scripture, this righteousness of Jesus Christ can only be imputed through faith in Him. The process of imputation follows after God justify the sinner by FAITH (which in the first place is God's gift to the sinner only by His grace).

Those who came up with the doctrine call "IMPARTED RIGHTEOUSNESS", satisfy their perversion of being justified by the law. Isaiah declares this as "filthy rags".

How many times do you want to be justified before you are saved?
---christan on 1/20/12


IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS is given when we believe his promise (JESUS CHRIST) by faith. It is the perfect life / righteousness of Jesus credited to us.
Romans 3:22 the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:

IMPARTED RIGHTEOUSNESS is the righteousness given to us by God when we do what is lawful and right. It is based on the character of Jesus in us ( CHRIST IN YOU)

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
---francis on 1/20/12


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