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Do Spirits Of Dead See

Do the spirit/souls of physically deceased people see, think, speak, feel, touch, thirst?

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 ---Leon on 1/20/12
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francis//It really does not matter if you see this in the NT.

Yes, since Ellen White said it, Adventists have to obey it. But we recognize her gospel was a different gospel with another Jesus.

If it is NOT in the NT, then it can only is optional. Romans 14 made that abundantly clear. Can you not read?

//Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them.

We are not under the law of Moses, nor under the Old Covenant.

Let us listen to Jesus, not the rantings of a false prophetess.
---lee1538 on 2/7/12


We whom have had OOBEs and NDEs can testify that there is indeed another life after the earthen life, which in the other realm has heightened sensory perception. And scripture details the glories of heaven, and the torments of hell, all of which are lived and felt. The righteous sing and rejoice, but the wicked will weep and gnash their teeth.
---Eloy on 2/7/12


I am convinced that since there is NO command to observe the Jewish Sabbath in the New Covenant ---lee1538 on 2/6/12

It really does not matter if you see this in the NT

Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them.

Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
---francis on 2/7/12


LEE:

Common sense tells you Christ came died and rose again donkey years after the catholic church changed the day from Saturday to Sunday. You say the new commandment did not say to observe a day, not the rituals no but the keeping of it [holy] was not abolished.

Luk 18:20
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

Ask yourself if these are the only commandments to keep???.

Percept upon precept Line upon line!

Those who know The Almighty know what he said to keep, and do!

Noah built the arc and they mocked. The virgins prepared with oil. There are those who obey YAHWEH, will.
---Carla on 2/7/12


MarkV: You must have missed my question, as your response seemed unrelated.

Do you teach that the Ten Commandments are still binding on Christians? You can see from Lee's responses that he does not. What about you?


---jerry6593 on 2/7/12




yes they do

through demons

so if you believe you are seeing a deceased person or any "ghost" you are experiencing a demon

FLEE don't entertain them
---Rhonda on 2/6/12


Jerry//Numerous contributors to CN have for years made such statements as the law (Ten Commandments) are not applicable to Christians, or we need only keep nine of them, or we may choose any rest day we like, or we need only love our neighbors, etc.

The issue is whether the Bible teaches one must observe selected OT laws not found within the New Covenant.

I am convinced that since there is NO command to observe the Jewish Sabbath in the New Covenant and since we see that the majority of the early church did not teach Sabbath observance by less than 100 years after the Cross, it is very apparently that the Apostles & their immediate successors did not teach it.

You really have no convicting argument on this issue.
---lee1538 on 2/6/12


Jerry, the same goes for you,
No one has said they want to break the laws or teaches anyone to break them. As francis, you want everyone to keep the Saturday Sabbath as if keeping it will save you. There must be thousands upon thousands of Adventist who are not saved and go to church on Saturdays. For going to church on Saturdays or Sunday's saves no one. We are saved by grace through faith, not by any works of ours. And you cannot tell me you do not sin, in fact if you do, you proof you deceived yourself and the truth is not in you, by lying. "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8).
---Mark_V. on 2/6/12


francis, if that was your whole grip, which I knew it was, why didn't you just come out and say it? Why all those passages and accusations about others. What a waste of time. Wasting time is a sin. How about that sin? And let me say also, how about all your other sins you commit every day? They don't count? So if you keep Saturday Sabbath by your own works, you think that saves you or even makes you a holy person? You are very wrong. But you are wrong, many who keep Saturday Sabbath are not even saved. No amount of going to church will save you either. We are saved by Grace through faith. We are not under the Law, but under Grace.
---Mark_V. on 2/6/12


MarkV: "I know of no one who teaches to break the law."

You can't possibly be that blind! Numerous contributors to CN have for years made such statements as the law (Ten Commandments) are not applicable to Christians, or we need only keep nine of them, or we may choose any rest day we like, or we need only love our neighbors, etc. Did you miss all of these?

As for you, do you teach that the Ten Commandments are still binding on Christians? I haven't seen it. All I see is your hatred for the Seventh-day Sabbath. You pretend that you don't know what day of the week that is today, while rejecting the concensus of the entire world on the subject. Why don't you just keep the day Jesus kept.

---jerry6593 on 2/6/12




francis, I know of no one who teaches to break the law. No one.
---Mark_V. on 2/5/12
Let me make it very clear to you.

If you are not keeping the entire ten commandments, then you muct be breaking one.

In your case from past posts you are not keeping the seventh day sabbath as commanded by the Lord God: am I correct in saying that you do not keep the sabbath commandments as commaned by God?
---francis on 2/5/12


francis, I know of no one who teaches to break the law. No one. But that is not what you are concerned about, what you are concerned about is why don't we do Saturday Sabbath. All the other stuff is just a smoke screen. You talk a lot about not breaking the law, give old testament passages over and over, argue with everyone, but your whole agenda is Saturday Sabbath. It is not because you are concern about our salvation, or because you love the Lord with all your heart, it is about Saturday Sabbath. Just come out and say it. Why all the talk? You are here to teach Saturday Sabbath. No other reason.
---Mark_V. on 2/5/12


All your talking about others sinning, and how great you are going to church on Saturday,---Mark_V. on 2/5/12

Mark_V. do not let anyone teach you to break one of these least commandments, and do not teach others to break them either, and you too will be called great in the kingdom.

Do you believe the words of Jesus?

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall BE CALLED GREAT in the kingdom of heaven.
---francis on 2/5/12


Lee: "And where was Abraham when he saw Jesus day?"

In vision.


"Act 2:29,31 speaks of where the the body of David was, the verse does not tell us where his spirit was."

You have committed the crime of adding to scripture. The words "body" and "spirit" do not appear in these verses, just "David" and "he". Why would the scripture specifically say that David was not ascended to heaven if his "spook" was actually there?

Act 2:29,34 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. For David is not ascended into the heavens:


---jerry6593 on 2/5/12


Jerry, you have no clue what it is to be born of the Spirit. All your talking about others sinning, and how great you are going to church on Saturday, accomplishes you nothing. That's why you always speak for the Law.
If you were born of the Spirit you would understand spiritual matters. Your still dead. Jesus said you must be born again of the Spirit in order to enter the Kingdom. "For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of man, which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God" (1 Cor. 2:11,12).
---Mark_V. on 2/5/12


"...The context of the rich man/lazarus parable is clearly not the state of the dead...Lk. 16:31... this parable does not reflect reality is abundantly self-illusrative [?]... heaven is not really on a single man's chest, and the "great gulf" between heaven and hell would preclude not only communication between the two parties, but seeing each other and reaching across with a drop a water as well [?]...most importantly, anything other than a parable conflicts with the rest of scripture. [???]
---jerry6593 on 2/4/12"


Jesus said they were DEAD, Lk. 16:22, 30-31. Like Cliff, you kick against the pricks. Being in religious bondage makes you take the parable & Bible completely out of context!
---Leon on 2/4/12


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Jerry//Why do you think that King David (a man after God's own heart) is not in heaven?

Act 2:29,31 speaks of where the the body of David was, the verse does not tell us where his spirit was.

Since he was beloved of God, his spirit was the same place as is Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac. God is not the god of the dead but of the living. Mt. 22:32 (the living is not the dead!)

If you beleve soul sleep, you would also be forced to believe that the damned in hell are not conscious.
---lee1538 on 2/4/12


Jerry//John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.

And where was Abraham when he saw Jesus day?
---
Since we see the Lord telling the Saduccees about the resurrtion of the death that God is the god of the living and NOT the dead,(Mt.22.32) we can only conclude that Abraham was still alive even after the death of his body. Where is he then, where else but in heaven.

After the believer's death of the body, the soul sleeps but the spirit goes back to God who gave it. At the resurrection, the believer is given a new glorified body.

Sorry that Adventism is such a distortion of Biblical truth you are unable to see that.

---lee1538 on 2/4/12


Abraham seeing Jesus day relates to the angel of the Lord which is a fraise thats interchangeable with the presents of God, example, visiting Abraham, dining with him and Sarah before going to Sodom. This is called a Cristophany, its the same with the burning bush, Jesus saying before Abraham was, I AM. Another Christophony is when Joshua meets the Captain of the Host, which was an incarnation of God the Son as well. So the context of Abraham seeing His day doesnt refer to the afterlife, but a Christophany. Again this refers to the presence of God the Son in the OT, or after His ascension. Im not posting this to try and answer the topical question, just to clarify the passage in John 8.
---Poppa_Bear on 2/4/12


John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.

And where was Abraham when he saw Jesus day?
---lee1538 on 2/2/12

Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, GOD WILL PROVIDE HIMSELF A LAMB for a burnt offering:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Revelation 5:12 Worthy is THE LAMB THAT WAS SLAIN to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
---francis on 2/4/12


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Leon: I agree, context is essential. The context of the rich man/lazarus parable is clearly not the state of the dead, but the fallacy of not believing the Old Testament. As:

Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

That this parable does not reflect reality is abundantly self-illusrative. For example heaven is not really on a single man's chest, and the "great gulf" between heaven and hell would preclude not only communication between the two parties, but seeing each other and reaching across with a drop a water as well.

But most importantly, anything other than a parable conflicts with the rest of scripture.
---jerry6593 on 2/4/12


John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.

And where was Abraham when he saw Jesus day?
---lee1538 on 2/2/12

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],

Hebrews 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

Hebrews 11:19 Accounting that God [was] able to raise [him] up, even from the dead, from whence also he received him in a figure.
---francis on 2/3/12


Jerry: Acts 2, like the whole of Scripture, must be read in context (light) of what is being said. I understand what's really being said, but since you asked Lee I'll defer to him/her to explain the fact of the matter to you.

However, at your leisure, I'd appreciate an answer to my 2/2 questions. Thx!
---Leon on 2/3/12


Lee: Why do you think that King David (a man after God's own heart) is not in heaven?

Act 2:29, 34 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. ... For David is not ascended into the heavens:


---jerry6593 on 2/3/12


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Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.

Jerry and his SDA people would say that God is the god not of the living but of the sleeping in order to promote their view on soul sleep.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.

And where was Abraham when he saw Jesus day?

Adventists unfortunately have to twist the daylights out of scripture to get it to fit their erroneous beliefs as propagated by their false prophetess Ellen White.
---lee1538 on 2/2/12


"Leon: With all due respect, my Bible makes no mention whatsoever of a 'soul conscious, spirit man'."

Does your Bible have Luke 16:19-31? When you read it, what do you understand the people who are verbally interacting with each other to be? How would you describe the essence type of persons Abraham, Lazarus & the rich man are in the parable?

"...When Jesus made Adam, He combined dust of the earth with His breath of life [not a soul] to create a soul. Same thing for Lazarus..."

Jerry, you're unrealistically trying to square peg a round hole by comparing Adam to Lazarus. Scripture doesn't say Jesus made Lazarus from the dust of the ground & breathed life into him.
---Leon on 2/2/12


Leon: With all due respect, my Bible makes no mention whatsoever of a "soul conscious, spirit man".

You asked:

"If dead Lazarus knew nothing after he died, how could he have responded to Jesus' call to come forth from the grave?"

How did Adam? When Jesus made Adam, He combined dust of the earth with His breath of life [not a soul] to create a soul. Same thing for Lazarus, his soul [person] was created - not floating through the dark somewhere.


---jerry6593 on 2/2/12


"How ironic...Jesus used the name 'Lazarus' in His parable with the rich man as though Lazarus was awake & alive in death, when the real Lazarus was declared by Jesus to be both 'dead' & 'asleep'!
---jerry6593 on 2/1/12"


It's about perspective Jerry: Jesus' parable shows the spirit point of view in the after-life when the SPIRIT BODY & SOUL has departed from the physical body. (Lk. 16:19-31)

Speaking of Lazarus from the perspective of people yet alive in physical bodies on earth, Jesus accurately said Lazarus' PHYSICAL BODY was asleep/DEAD. (Jn. 11:11-14) Yet, Lazarus' "soul conscious, spirit man" could hear & respond to Jesus' command. (Jn. 11:38-44)
---Leon on 2/1/12


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Ironic Jerry? Did Jesus error by contradicting himself? Do you really believe Jesus didn't know Lazarus' condition or where he was?

To "use" (pick) a random name would imply the parable wasn't true. But, Jesus called the beggar Lazarus because that was his "real" name in the "true" story he told.

Certainly more than one person named Lazarus lived back then just as there are many Jerrys, Leons, etc., today.

I think it's very interesting Jesus didn't give the rich man the same honorable mentioning (name recognition) as Lazarus. I believe he also knew the rich man's name.

If dead Lazarus knew nothing after he died, how could he have responded to Jesus' call to come forth from the grave?
---Leon on 2/1/12


How ironic that Jesus used the name "Lazarus" in His parable with the rich man as though Lazarus was awake and alive in death, when the real Lazarus was declared by Jesus to be both "dead" and "asleep"!


---jerry6593 on 2/1/12


Bottomline: Jesus' parables are microcosm (snippet) truths of the overall macrocosm truth of the entire Bible. Parable truth is meant to bridge the gap (gulf) between our understanding of God's spiritual reality & our flesh & blood physical existence. Jesus explained this to his disciples in Matthew 13:36-43.

All who miss this connection are destined, by their own choosing, to be "forever" separated from God "in a furnace [lake] of fire".

Naysayers can argue against truth all the way up to the point where they'll be wailing & gnashing their teeth in a "real" lake (furnace) of fire. Their stubborn SINfulness won't change a thing. TRUTH IS TRUTH!!!
---Leon on 1/28/12


Parables are truths that Christ used. A parable means, "to throw or place alongside" Thus a parable is placed alongside something else for the purpose of comparing. Because parables can cause a long lasting impression, Christ used them to bring Truth to believers only that would have a long lasting effect.
Christ could have said, " you should be persistent in your prayer life" a statment that His hearers would probably have shrugged off and quickly forgotten. Instead He told them of a widow who kept begging and unjust judge to help her, until the judge finally decided to answer her petitions to stop her from complaining. Christ then taught the lesson of the parable in (Luke 18:9-14).
---Mark_V. on 1/27/12


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Samuel

I agree about it being a prophetic parable but theres more

When the rich man opens his eyes in hades it is a figurative forshadow of what happens in the resurrection to damnation
All those who r in the GRAVE(hades/sheol), will awake and hear his voice, the rich man knows what is about to happen, to be judged and thrown into te lake of fire
---glen on 1/25/12


Is it not written that God will wipe away our tears when we go to heaven?

Is it not written that we will not have rememberance of the old heavens and old earth?

If everyone remembered what they did in the old heavens and the old earth would there be joy as promised or would there be heartache in the new heavens and the new earth?
---Steveng on 1/25/12


The resurrection of Lazarus was a real event fortold by JESUS in this Parable.

The story illustred the real points of false doctrine that the rulers taught.

By the way the rich man would not even give the beggar scraps of food. How much rich today do not help anyone but themselves. A true happening.
---Samuel on 1/25/12


Glen- the question about Larazus & the rich man in hell is whether or not Jesus used real experiences or did He simply use a fantasy story to illustrate a point? All the other parables of Jesus were on realistic events that the audience could identify with.
---lee1538 on 1/25/12


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francis has explained it well with clear scripture more than one too

Abrahams bosom is a parable

Anyone who disagrees could you explain who's bosom it was before abraham was born?

Do u really think a bosom is a place?

Why don't you believe the 3 or 4 scriptures that francis pointed out?

How about abrahams seed?

29 and if ye are of Christ then of Abraham ye are seed, and according to promise -- heirs.
---glen on 1/24/12


1Cliff, you said,

"Mark V: So you figure God discarded that plan (Filling the earth) as a bad move Huh?"

Cliff, I only believe in the word of God. I try not to speculate why God did things the way He did. He said it, we told you and you do not believe. You try to understand God with your own wisdom as if you could tell every move He was going to make and why He made it. You are but clay and He is the Potter. Your rejection of His Word is already written about. That there would be guys like you who would not believe. You see with your physical eyes but are blind with your spiritual eyes, you have ears to hear but no spiritual ears. Can we make you see with our answers? No. Only God can give you spiritual vision.
---Mark_V. on 1/25/12


Lee: "Does the Holy Ghost have a body that has a brain, eyes, ears, a tongue, etc."

Is the Holy Spirit a man or is He God?


"You know nothing of our spiritual state after our body dies."

I know that the Bible says:

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish.

It's not that hard to understand, Lee. Let go of your pagan fables and go with the Bible!

---jerry6593 on 1/25/12


Leon, Parable doesn't indicate that the Rich man was evil or that the beggar was righteous!
Being fed scraps from the RM's table actually shows compassion,didn't shoo him away!
The population was generally illiterate and depended on the priests for little scraps of spiritual food! (in which they were rich)
The synonymous deaths indicate a "change" , the tables turned, if you will!
RM now on the Hot Seat,looking for compromise (a drop of water on the tongue) Now they have access to their own spiritual food!etc..
---1st_cliff on 1/24/12


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Mark V: So you figure God discarded that plan (Filling the earth) as a bad move Huh?
No satan cannot ruin any purpose of God!
You are not one of the "meek" who will inherit the earth, not good enough for you , you want to be right up there with God, I suppose there's no use in God making a "new earth" since you don't intend on being there!
And "I" don't discern spiritual matters???
---1st_cliff on 1/24/12


What was Jesus illustrating (representing, portraying) Cliff?
Leon

The Sadducees taught like some today that riches were the reward of being GODLY. So the first thing JESUS taught with this parable was that belief was false. They also taught the poor were cursed. Here though the opposite is true. The poor beggar is GODLY while the rich like them who do not care for the poor is cursed.

He also was seeing into the future for JESUS did raise Lazarus from the dead just as he fortold though the people would not believe because they had made up their minds to believe a lie over the truth.

See the beauty and purpose of this parable now?
---Samuel on 1/24/12


I have experienced both evil and Good I know God certainly exisits if evil does... it is that simple.

If evil spirits did not exist could not see or feel or touch, How come in my sisters house as soon as she left the room and I was on my own her daughter who has Downs has a speaking money Robot, high on her living room shelf shelf... It started speaking when she went out several times and at first I thought it was an upstairs radio... However, after all the goings on that occurred in her house I finally recognised... what it was the hairs on my face and arms raised when I realised, the robot only spoke when I was on my own, it is triggered off if you steal from it...
---Carla on 1/24/12


1Cliff,
You say,
" that bears no resemblance to God's mandate to Adam "Be fruitful multiply and fill the earth"
and what did they do? they multiply. So what?
Then you said, "He created the earth for mankind with no thought of them leaving here, ever!"
You said He had no thought of them leaving here ever, first, how do you know what His thoughts at any time? Those are your thoughts. That's what you think He was thinking. But He thought otherwise. For we are told in (Eph. 2:6) after making us spiritually alive, He raised us up together with Christ, "and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus". Spiritual matters you know nothing about.

---Mark_V. on 1/24/12


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"Leon, No Jesus never lied, a parable is an illustration, not a reality. Interpretation of a parable and what it portrays is a whole 'nuther subject!
---1st_cliff on 1/22/12

What was Jesus illustrating (representing, portraying) Cliff?
---Leon on 1/22/12"


Please reply to my question Cliff. Thx!
---Leon on 1/24/12


"...There is no such thing as ghosts. When Jesus returns, He will give us new, functioning, immortal bodies...
---jerry6593 on 1/24/12"


1.) There's no such person as GOD, THE HOLY GHOST (SPIRIT)?

2.) Ghost is a synonym for spirit (soul, force of life, breath of life). We're spirit (ghost) bodies (sb), we live in & have limited control over our physical bodies (pb), & we all have a soul (cognition). When the pb dies, the sb lives on either in heaven or hell. In the resurrection, everyone's pb will be raised. Believers will be raised in new, imperishable, immortal bodies & unbelieving spirits will be put back in their same old corrupt pb of which they"ll inhabit forever.
---Leon on 1/24/12


//Is it possible to see without eyes? To hear without ears? To speak without a tongue? To feel without nerves? To think without a brain? There is no such thing as ghosts. When Jesus returns, He will give us new, functioning, immortal bodies to do all these things - but not until.

Does the Holy Ghost have a body that has a brain, eyes, ears, a tongue, etc.????????????

Perhaps your god is liken to the Mormon God Elohim with a body of flesh and bone able to have intercourse with the female species?

You know nothing of our spiritual state after our body dies.
---lee1538 on 1/24/12


Is it possible to see without eyes? To hear without ears? To speak without a tongue? To feel without nerves? To think without a brain? There is no such thing as ghosts. When Jesus returns, He will give us new, functioning, immortal bodies to do all these things - but not until.


---jerry6593 on 1/24/12


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Perhaps you have figured it out Cliff.
Adieu, 7x70
---Poppa_Bear on 1/23/12


Popa Bear, No mystery, Because our original parents failed doesn't mean that God chucked the whole idea of an earth teeming with loyal followers!
Isa.45 18
Psl.37.29
Psl.115.16
The pagan idea of going to heaven at death is a pipe-dream!
Jesus said He would take some with Him to rule as Kings and Priests!
The super religious are here saying "Take me,take me, I'm going ya, Me too,
Jesus decides who He will take! Not you!Mat.22.14 Jn.1516
---1st_cliff on 1/23/12


There are many warnings in the bible about people who backslide so it is possible for one to fall from grace as Satan did.

As for those who believe in "once saved, always saved" think about this - Do not be affraid of man for he can only kill the body, but be affraid of God who can detroy both the body and the soul.
---Steveng on 1/23/12


God created Angels perfect, a third rejected him, He made humans vulnerable, fallible , and allowed them to fall into sin and be separated through disobedience, His Son came and displayed an amazing plan of salvation through the cross, redeeming man, who was His enemy. The Father promises this redeemed people/believers to His Son, to be perfect as He is perfect through love, obedience, trials, tribulations and faith. The redeemed long to see Him face to face and be like Jesus in His glory and freely bring Him more glory and honor. If heaven is his home, then we want to be there, we love Him, He died for us, and it is a love story. It may be a mystery, but not a sci-fi Cliff.
---Poppa_Bear on 1/22/12


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"Leon, No Jesus never lied, a parable is an illustration, not a reality. Interpretation of a parable and what it portrays is a whole 'nuther subject!
---1st_cliff on 1/22/12"


What was Jesus illustrating (representing, portraying) Cliff?
---Leon on 1/22/12


"Gordon,Leon Mark,What has happened here is that man has lost sight of what God's purpose was initially!
Why did He create humans?
To live in the sky?? NO
He already had a hundred million Angels there!
He created the earth for mankind with no thought of them leaving here, ever!
Now religion has turned it completely around to read, God made the earth for a testing ground,if you pass then you get to live in the sky in a different body like aliens!
If this is not the devil's doing I don't know what is!
---1st_cliff on 1/22/12"


Do you intend to answer or evade my question Cliff? Did Jesus lie when he told the parable of the rich man & Lazarus?
---Leon on 1/22/12


Leon, No Jesus never lied, a parable is an illustration, not a reality. Interpretation of a parable and what it portrays is a whole 'nuther subject!
---1st_cliff on 1/22/12


Mark V, I guess the devil has more followers than one can imagine.(those who believe serpent's lie)And Eve was "perfect"
We had a trick candle we used at birthday parties,one that couldn't be blown out.Each time it would re-light.
Your belief in the soul is the same ,once born can never die! It just morphs!
What you believe is just another "religion" No sense of reason, reality, logic a Shangri La imaginary "pie in the sky" that bears no resemblance to God's mandate to Adam "Be fruitful multiply and fill the earth!
---1st_cliff on 1/22/12


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Gordon,Leon Mark,What has happened here is that man has lost sight of what God's purpose was initially!
Why did He create humans ?
To live in the sky?? NO
He already had a hundred million Angels there!
He created the earth for mankind with no thought of them leaving here, ever!
Now religion has turned it completely around to read, God made the earth for a testing ground,if you pass then you get to live in the sky in a different body like aliens!
If this is not the devil's doing I don't know what is!
---1st_cliff on 1/22/12


If perdition exists yes, however very few churches ever preach on this subject most christian churches hell as lake of fire, and heaven as all people having access as though it will not be made a new.

I guess people need to read for themselves and rely on the pulpit or they rely on an individual interpretation, much like most bibles.
---Carla on 1/22/12


1Cliff, why would you claim the Word of God is a lie? You are actually saying that the Serpent did not speak to Eve at all. The Apostle John identified this creature as Satan (Rev. 12:9: 20:2). Satan, being a fallen angel and thus, a supernatural spirit had possessed the body of a snake in it's pre-fall form)
But you say he did not speak to Eve, that it was all a lie propegated by God. You do not say it was interpreted wrong, but that the whole encounter with Eve was a complete lie. That it never happen, implying God is a liar.
---Mark_V. on 1/22/12


Cliff: Did Jesus lie when he told the parable of the rich man & Lazarus?
---Leon on 1/22/12


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I also disagree with 1Cliff. Not because the parable is real but because he doesn't believe our spirit is alive with Christ, the moment we are born of the Spirit. Which indicates no regeneration has occurred in him or he would known that.

"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love for with which He loved us. (believers) even when we were dead in trespasses, "made us alive together with Christ," by grace you have been saved, and raised together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." (Eph. 4-7).
We already experience this unity with Christ, and nothing can change that.
---Mark_V. on 1/22/12


Gordon/Leon, There's an old saying that "There are non so blind as he who will not see"!
You both choose to believe the same lie that the serpent told Eve and of course that's your prerogative.
You are certainly not alone as Muslims and Hindus and all pagan religions also embrace the idea (lie) that no one actually dies!
Narrow is the gate and "FEW" ..find it"!
The big highway is crowded!
You're going 90mph down a dead end street!
---1st_cliff on 1/22/12


DO NOT IGNORE WHAT THE SCRIPTUES SAY ABOUT THE MENTAL CAPACITY OF THE DEAD

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished,

Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man,..His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish.

Job 14:21 His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not, and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.
---francis on 1/22/12


Gordon: I've disagreed with you in the past on some issues & may yet disagree on others in the future. :) But, today I'm with you 100% in this matter. I want to emphasis my agreeing with you is solely because what you said is what the Bible clearly expresses.

Yes, our "spirit bodies" are infinitely more real than our perishing flesh & bones. One's conscious spirit man either goes instantly into heaven after the "death of the flesh" or else the spirit/soul will go immediately into hell just as Jesus said.

To the naysayers here, I want to say the Luke 16:19... parable is true because GOD DOESN'T LIE! (Romans 3:3-4)
---Leon on 1/21/12


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Yes, the deceased souls of men do see, think, feel, taste and smell. The Story of the Rich man and Lazarus in LUKE 16 attest to this. The five senses are heightened in both Heaven and in Hell. How is that? Because the bodies are not limited by the finite, corrupting flesh-and-blood bodies as we now have on Earth. This is what helps to make Heaven so wonderful and Hell so horrible. GOD truly is not mocked. We really do reap what we sow. Here while on Earth, and, afterwards in the After-Life.
---Gordon on 1/21/12


" Tough when the only reference you have is a parable!" 1stCliff

"Tough" you say? No, not really. It's more like what Jesus said, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

You see, the more you continue to mock the Word of God, according to Jesus Christ, there's a very special place waiting or should I follow Scripture and say "prepared" for you. Each time you mock, you condemn yourself, it's as simple as that. After all, it's the sin of unbelief in the Word of God that's a guarantee that someone like you will end up in the Lake of Fire.

By the time you are like the rich man in Hades, let's see and hear if there's any more of your mocking.
---christan on 1/21/12


"Christian, Tough when the only reference you have is a parable!
---1st_cliff on 1/21/12"


As usual Cliff, you can't see the Truth for the lies. You adamantly maintain that Jesus, in telling the parable (story) of the rich man & Lazarus, made up a fable (spun a yarn, a fictional tale). In other words, according to you, Jesus was lying about people being in hell. WHY do you think Jesus would lie about hell, or for that matter lie period?

Your reasoning is extremely inaccurate (to say the least). If you persist in that satanic lie it will hang you one day Cliff!
---Leon on 1/21/12


Christian, Tough when the only reference you have is a parable!
---1st_cliff on 1/21/12


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These lines get me!
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Didn't appear to all, but too many!
And these:
Mat_8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead.
Luk_9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

Doesn't it make you think, just who, are the dead?
There must be dead people walking around, right now!
You don't see them and they don't see you!

But, it's no secret, only the living can see the living!
Peace!
---TheSeg on 1/21/12


Be concerned with the living! not the dead!
---Eloy on 1/21/12


It is written that a person is not really dead, but asleep and cannot think, talk, see, hear, feel, smell.

At the last blow of the trumpet, when Jesus returns, the dead in Christ shall rise first and the living shall be caught up with the dead. This is the first resurrection. Since Jesus has not yet returned, the dead are still asleep at this moment.

The rest of the dead shall rise at the end of the thousand year reign of Chris and be judged according to their works.

Blesses are those that rise at the first resurrection.
---Steveng on 1/20/12


Do the spirit of physically deceased people see, think, speak, feel, touch, thirst?
---Leon on 1/20/12
NO

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished,

Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man,..His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish.

Job 14:21 His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not, and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.
---francis on 1/20/12


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According to Luke 16:20-31 account, the answer to the question is a definite YES! The rich man saw and spoke to Father Abraham. Even had the ability to feel pain and thirst because of where he was.

However, the interesting part is verse 26 when Abraham told the rich man, "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot, neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

There's no opportunity for the rich man or any soul in Hades to go wandering around is clear.
---christan on 1/20/12


Leon, The only thing leaving your body at death is your breath (Pneuma in Greek)
Can your breath think,see hear etc..?
For all the things you mention a "body" is necessary with a central nervous system!
The new body happens at resurrection!
Only in Hollywood movies do the dead walk around and haunt places!
psl.146.4 "His breath goeth forth,he retureth to his earth,in that very day his thoughts perish" KJV
Jesus said "Do not be amazed at this but the day is coming when all that are in the graves will hear his voice and come out" Jn.5.28.
---1st_cliff on 1/20/12


About the only thing we have to go on in answering this question is the Bible.

And I believe that the Bible tells us that when a person dies, there are only two possible destinies - with Christ or in hell.

The psychic will tell us that we can communicate with the deceased based upon the visions and psychic experiences of such people as Edgar Cayce, John Edwards, or Van Praagh, however, most of these guys have been proven to be frauds.
---lee1538 on 1/20/12


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