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Waiting To Be Adopted

In 8th Chapter of Romans, Paul wrote about those who have been adopted (Romans 8:15) and those who were still waiting to be adopted (Romans 8:23). Who are the one's waiting to be adopted?

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Who said Pauls commentary was needed, it was a gift to the Church to expound on the foundations of our faith in greater detail.-- Poppa Bear

I agree with this statement, but the Protestant church uses Paul's letter's as the foundation of their teachings, and they do not use them to expound on the Gospel of Christ.

Example:
In (John 8:34) Jesus says that "Everyone" who sins is a slave to sin, when Paul says those who belong to Christ are no longer slaves to sin.
Protestants say they belong to Christ, though they are still in sin and proclaim they are not slaves to sin.
Jesus taught the opposite of this.
If they used the Gospels of Christ as their foundation and not Paul, could they teach this? No.
---David on 2/7/12


James L, you are trying to make something out of nothing. Just think of what you are saying. Here you said,
"He who endures to the end will be saved (from scripture)"
Its not saying that if you endure you will be saved because you endured. Its saying that those who are saved endure. Why? Because God says:
"What God does is forever"
" Acknowledging God's enduring and perfect work becomes grounds for reverence, worship, and meaning. Apart from God man's works are pitifully inadequate. He endures because of the work God has done on him. That goes for every single genuine believer."
That's why they will be saved and will endure, because of God.
---Mark_V. on 2/7/12


James L 2: The instrument God uses in all those whom He has drawn to Him is faith. Because of this faith that God gave is we endure to the end. We overcome, we suffer for Him, we are able to walk in His statues. For we are saved by Grace through faith as a gift. Those without true faith will never endure.
"no one can receive anything except what is given him from heaven" John 3:27). and
"So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy" (Rom. 9:16). for
" And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, "who called you to His eternal glory in Christ" will Himself restore, establish, and strenthen you"
---Mark_V. on 2/7/12


Who said Pauls commentary was needed, it was a gift to the Church to expound on the foundations of our faith in greater detail. A person could find salvation in John 3-16 alone. Barb, why would Jesus have to tell us about Paul for? Does the fact that He didnt, take away from Pauls work as an Apostle? David, since your referencing the book of Acts for your support, have you added that to your personal opinion of divine truth now? Is there a 2000 year long conspiracy to sneak Pauls writings in the bible and change the message of the Cross? What did Paul have to gain besides beatings and death by parading around as an Apostle? Why didnt the other Apostles denounce him?
---Poppa_Bear on 2/6/12


\\a systematic study of salvation thats intricate, contextual and encompasses all of the scriptures.\\ - Poppa Bear

\\interpreting smaller passages by the more extensive passages clarifies the more obscure passages.\\ - Poppa Bear


That doesn't sound very systematic to me. That's nothing less than a dance. The "dance" says that all the warnings against falling away are hypothetical, when the plain wording of scripture aims them at genuine believers, with a real potential. The "dance" reverses all the conditional passages. Instead of

He who endures to the end will be saved (from scripture)

it becomes

He who is saved will endure to the end (from Protestants)
---James_L on 2/6/12




Aka, Matt 28 16-20. Here Jesus is instructing his disciples to go into ALL nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and teaching them to observe all things that He had commanded them. This happened after Jesus' resurrection and before Paul came on the scene. Now why would Jesus need Paul when he had sent his eleven eyewitnesses out into the world John 17:18??

Jesus never said anything about Paul. Not one word unless you want to count Rev. 2:2. We have only Paul's word for it and Paul does not name those who were with him on the road to Damascus nor does he ever bring them forward as eyewitnesses.
---barb on 2/6/12


The Gospels are snap shots of redemption. The Epistles are the commentaries of the Gospels.
---Poppa_Bear on 2/6/12


If the teachings Jesus gave the disciples are a snapshot needing an explanation from Paul, why would Jesus send his disciples out to spread his Gospel, before Paul's conversion?

In (Acts 2) & (Acts 4) thousand were being saved long before Paul began his conversion in (Acts 9). How could this be possible if Paul's commentary was needed for them to be saved?
---David on 2/6/12


David, whats the Gospel? What does Jesus Himself say about the way to receive eternal life? What does He say about the way to be saved? The passages about believing are many more times numerous than what you are talking about, interpreting smaller passages by the more extensive passages clarifies the more obscure passages. So we gather up all passages concerning the Gospel and find the fundamentals according to there clarity and quantity. Did the thief on the cross get down and perform the good works shuffle? What is the saving application of the Spirit in a believers life that Jesus promised? The Gospels are snap shots of redemption. The Epistles are the commentaries of the Gospels.
---Poppa_Bear on 2/6/12


I am not a Protestant nor am I a Catholic. I also do not believe that someone can save themselves by what they do.
Many people were being saved, long before Saul became Paul. They only had one Gospel, and that was the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
If your doctrine is not supported by his Gospel, it is not of Christ.

What I teach, and what I know, is what Jesus Christ taught in (John 14:21). That teaching that clearly says, "It is through doing what our Lord Jesus commands us to do, that we gain the favor of God.
God whose favor we need, because he is the one who will choose, who will and who will not be saved.

The commands of Jesus Christ all point to this, Love your neighbor and God will love you.
---David on 2/6/12


Poppa Bear, thank you so much for your explanations. That is the same way I see protestant teachings. Paul never once mentioned works for salvation. In fact he said that the works we do is because of our salvation. "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10).
From the foundation of the world God ordained this to be for all who are made alive in Christ. I don't see any changes in what Paul teaches to contradict anyone. With the direction of the Holy Spirit he was explaining things Jesus didn't in the time He was here before His death and resurrection. Jesus didn't touch every subject and every detail. He didn't come for that.
---Mark_V. on 2/6/12




Barb, All things to all men Is when we meet people where theyre at, culturally, experientially and religiously. I grew up in the ghetto per say, but in my adult life have been exposed to higher education, both influential, and affluent people. When I minister in the ghetto, I meet them at their level and I use my experience from growing up in that lifestyle to communicate with them. It is natural and appropriate, that is the communication they understand. Paul was a Roman citizen and a Jew, not many Jews were Roman citizens, Paul was born into it, and he had two completely different cultural backgrounds to use when sharing and ministering to people.
---Poppa_Bear on 2/5/12


James, our theology is based on two different views of salvation it seems, we may even have different definitions for the same words. This makes arguments, premises and conclusions near impossible. Protestants beliefs about this are, yes, Faith in Christs merits alone save, and justifies us, and we receive the Spirit as a deposit that seals us until the day of redemption, a guaranty of our salvation. Through the Spirits sanctifying work, we will produce good works revealing Christs righteousness inside us. He who does not manifest these fruits of the Spirit has false faith, and may have had a false conversion. All these points are qualified by a systematic study of salvation thats intricate, contextual and encompasses all of the scriptures.
---Poppa_Bear on 2/5/12


James, His Spirit, leads us into all truth, For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure, Having believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy-Spirit who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are Gods possession, the praise of His Glory., He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with Gods will, so that the gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. The Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love, and self-control.
---Poppa_Bear on 2/5/12


Poppa Bear,

Maybe you misunderstood what I wrote??

We are justified, "apart from" works. Or "without" works. Or, whether we have works or not. Yet, Protestants teach "by faith alone, but faith is never alone"

SO....if a man has faith, yet no works, will he go to heaven? The Protestant answer is NO. It's the same as Arminian doctrine. One front-loads the gospel with works, while the other back-loads the gospel with works. Both say works are essential for "final" salvation


\\He promised that His Spirit would work out His perfect work in me.\\

What do you mean by this? Perseverance of the saints? There is not one shred of scriptural evidence of this teaching.
---James_L on 2/5/12


Mark V,

David never said that scripture has Paul at odds with Jesus, he said that "Protestant Doctrine" has Paul at odds with Jesus.

Although, I don't agree with him, because Protestant Doctrine has Paul at odds with Paul. Twisting scripture to support an internally conflicted, non-scriptural works-based doctrine hidden behind a facade of "faith alone"

Sneaky guys, those Protestants.
---James_L on 2/5/12


Aka, since you believe you have a grasp on something I don't, why do you tell me what he said that I took wrong? I am willing to hear what he said that I did not understand. He spoke of protestant doctrines and did not mention one. Or where they are compromised. Or by what passages. If I'm wrong tell me where. I will recant if i am wrong.
---Mark_V. on 2/5/12


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//He didn't show one passages Paul teached that were opposite of what Jesus taught as far as doctrines.// MarkV

He doesn't have to because that is not what he believes. we are very limited here to say what and how we need. you of all should know. you keyed on one phrase (which honestly caught my attention.) but, when i reread what he had previously said. i know what he means.
---aka on 2/5/12


barb, it is good to see you quote what is actually written, and not your paraphrase in quotes.

the disciples with Christ were instructed explicitly not to go to outside nations. the Lord said this to Ananias about Paul: Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
---aka on 2/5/12


Aka, here is what he said:

""Because many protestant doctrines teachings of those letters, show Paul teaching the opposite of what Jesus taught."

He didn't show one passages Paul teached that were opposite of what Jesus taught as far as doctrines. Not one passage to confirm what he is saying is true. But to show which ones is a different story. I don't see Paul teaching different teachings. I'm a protestant and would like to see what is different. I don't know what protestant church you went to, but it could not be what protestants teach if you believe him. Opinions everyone has. And there is bad churches too. No doubt about that, but they are everywhere in every denomination whether protestant or not.
---Mark_V. on 2/5/12


markv, if you reread david's post, i think you will see you are going after something David did not say.

as far as jesus' commandments, there is a progression. first, he established that no man can or is willing to fulfill the 10, which is a perfect plan. then, he summed 10 into 2 and showed us that Elohim interprets the law in a way that we ignore. then, he said that we should love one another. if we do that, we fulfill the whole law.

you do not have to go further than this website to see that we do not truly love one another.

thank you, lord for your grace and mercy.
---aka on 2/5/12


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James, exactly how obedient do you have to be? Have you been obedient enough today to go to heaven? Makes salvation look like a trampoline, up to heaven one second, down to hell the next. So in your understanding, how many sins does it take to get to the center of hell, and how many good deeds does it take to get to heaven? I want your most un Protestant, most honest biblical answer. I need to know if I am saved this week, tongue in cheek question of course. My righteousness is in Him and my works are filthy rags, I obey because I love Him and He promised that His Spirit would work out His perfect work in me. Easy no, promised, yes.
---Poppa_Bear on 2/5/12


Aka, here is the text where Paul says he is all things to all men. 1st Cor 9 19-23. "And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews, to them that are under the law. To them without the law, as without the law so that I might gain them that are without law." Then he crowns it all by saying "I am made all things to all men that I might by all means save some."

Now if as you say he was sent to the Gentiles then what was he doing preaching his gospel to the Jews? And when he disguises himself and preaches to them as a Jew and they do not accept the Word should he not shake off the dust?
---barb on 2/5/12


David, the parable about the remnant in Matt 9 15-17 is in answer to a question of why the Pharisees fast and the disciples don't. I believe Jesus is saying that the Pharisees/Jews are the old remnant and that the Kingdom to come will be cut from a new piece of cloth.

Please read the 7 woes to the Scribes and Pharisees in Matt. 23:13-29. Now read Matt 23 37-39. "Your house is left to you desolate." Now read Matt 21:43 "The Kingdom of God shall be taken away from you and given to a nation bringing forth fruit". Do you still think that Jesus would pick a Pharisee to shephard the Jews? Anyway, wasn't Paul sent to the Gentiles?
---barb on 2/5/12


David, again you did a lot of talking and no passages that say that Apostle Paul taught opposite of what Christ taught.
---Mark_V. on 2/5/12

Once again, you tell lies about me. I have never made the claim that Paul taught the opposite of what Jesus taught, and therefore have no reason to prove it.
The Protestant church through their teachings make that claim.

Jesus also taught that "Everyone" who sins is a slave to sin.
The Protestant church teaches that not everyone who sins is a slave to sin. The word "everyone" seems to be all inclusive to every church but the Protestants.
Why is that Mark?
---David on 2/5/12


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David, again you did a lot of talking and no passages that say that Apostle Paul taught opposite of what Christ taught. None one passage and again all talk. Why don't you provide Scripture? Because you have got nothing to show. Just more talk on the law.
---Mark_V. on 2/5/12


\\The Protestant church teaches that obedience to Gods commandments are not necessary for one to gain Eternal Life.\\
---David on 2/5/12

That's not exactly accurate, David.

If you can actually get a Protestant to be honest (which is rare), they teach that obeying God's commandments is quite necessary.

There is so much dancing around around the scriptures with vain philosophy that they mask it quite well.

Ask one for a straight answer to this question, with no ifs, ands or buts about it

"If a man has faith, but does not obey God, will he go to heaven?"

If you can find an honest Protestant, you will find the answer to be the same as yours. Good luck finding an honest one, though
---James_L on 2/5/12


You said " opposite of what Jesus taught" it should be easy for you to show us. So where is that evidence?
---Mark_V. on 2/4/12


The Protestant church teaches that obedience to Gods commandments are not necessary for one to gain Eternal Life.
When Jesus was asked the question in (Matthew 19:16), "What must I do to gain Eternal Life?"
In (Matthew 19:17) He told the Man to, "Keep the Commandments".

Does the Protestant Church teach this?
No, They teach that keeping Gods commandments is not necessary to gain Eternal Life.
Complete opposites.
Remember, Jesus Christ N-E-V-E-R lied, and for you to say anything else, makes Jesus a Liar.
---David on 2/5/12


David, if youre talking about that passage in Mat 9, that is a parable that refers to the old covenant and the new covenant, the fact that the old covenant was of the law and the new covenant was of grace and the two couldnt be combined to obtain the fulfillment of the new covenant. Jesus was there to fulfill the old covenant and make a new covenant which He did in the upper room the evening of His betrayal by Judas, and He sealed it at the cross with His blood.
I also would like to hear more about your take on Protestants putting Pauls writings against the teachings of our Lord. Protestants usually approach the Bible systematically and believe that scripture can not argue with scripture.
---Poppa_Bear on 2/4/12


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//He even admits it. "To those under the law I became as one under the law, to those not under the law I became as one under the law."// barb

i challenge you to show me this exact quotation from any version of the bible.

//Jesus told his disciples to shake the dust off of their feet and leave if anyone did not receive His word from them. //

Jesus told his disciples to go only to the Jews. Jesus told Saul to go to the Gentiles, who were on a different plane and needed treated differently. So, Paul was not being as much as a chameleon as you say. He was being obedient and wise.
---aka on 2/4/12


Barb
I don't expect you to believe me when I say this, but Jesus mentioned Paul in a Parable.
Paul was the Patch which was cut from the same cloth, a patch meant to repair the relationship between God and the Children of Abraham.

Paul was a Pharisee, and Jesus took a teacher from amongst the Pharisee's, the teachers of the old.
Why?
Because sheep will follow their shepards, and the Pharisee's were the shepards of the Jewish people.

Notice in Acts it was not before, but after Paul's conversion that the Pharisee's turned to Christ.
Quite brilliant on the part of our Lord Jesus don't you think?
BTW, the New wineskins in that parable were the Lords disciples.
---David on 2/4/12


David, you made some great accusations about Paul and about the protestant doctrines when you said,

"Because many protestant doctrines teachings of those letters, show Paul teaching the opposite of what Jesus taught."

but did not provide one passage to confirm you speak truth. Anyone can just talk to be heard. You said " opposite of what Jesus taugh" it should be easy for you to show us. So where is that evidence?
---Mark_V. on 2/4/12


David, the problem is that Paul talks out of both sides of his mouth. He even admits it. "To those under the law I became as one under the law, to those not under the law I became as one under the law."

Jesus told his disciples to shake the dust off of their feet and leave if anyone did not receive His word from them. Jesus did not tell them to become chameleons in order to win souls.

Why didn't Jesus tell His disciples that Paul would be joining them? Why would Jesus withhold the truth from his beloved disciples and reveal it Saul? And why doesn't Jesus ever mention Paul...not a word, not even in Rev after Paul had finished preaching his gospel?

---barb on 2/3/12


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david, i agree. i grew up Catholic. (I wasn't a good one because i read the bible.) Yet, I hated Paul and his teachings. they did not sound good, and they were not taught. in fact, they did their best to keep us away.

however, as i grew older, i started to frequent protestant churches. it was there i started to hear things a different way. but, they are in a different way Judaizers also.

when i separated from both, i started seeing the whole truth.
---aka on 2/3/12


David, I don't want to bash Paul but sometimes he just asks for it. ---barb on 2/2/12

Barb
If your read Paul's letters in the way in which many protestant doctrines teach those letters, you are correct, Paul was a false teacher.
Because many protestant doctrines teachings of those letters, show Paul teaching the opposite of what Jesus taught.

But, if you read Paul's letters in the context in which they were written, you will discover that Paul did not tear down the teachings of Christ, but built on those teachings.

Some of you may want to challenge my statements here, and if you do, they are very easy to prove.
---David on 2/3/12


John.usa, A-men brother. There are two camps in the world, and we known whom belongs to whom by the fruits each tree bears. "Shown plainly stands the works of the flesh, which being: oppositions, provokings, contentions, dissensions, heresies, and like things to these, which I tell you beforehand, as also I said before, that whom do such things will not inherit God's kingdom."
---Eloy on 2/3/12


I do not believe that Paul was taught by Jesus. I do not believe his Damascus Road story and I do not like the way he talks to and about the apostles of Jesus Christ. Therefore I do not regard anything he says as the truth. We have full approval from Jesus to test the apostles Rev 2:2 and I have done so and have found Paul to be false
---barb on 2/2/12

despite Peter's words about Paul. then, you also discount Peter, also?

ironically, rev 2:2 was followed up by v. 5. but, it seems worthy to you to pick and choose based on your emotions and intellect.
---aka on 2/3/12


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David, those who receive the Spirit of adoption are the Elect, the Church, the Body of Christ, those chosen from the foundation of the world.
(Romans 8:15) speaks of receiving the Spirit of adoption, (Romans 8:23) The process that began (v.8:15) with God's choice (Eph. 1:5) now includes our actually becoming His children at salvation (Gal. 4:5-7) which will culminate with our glorification-the full realization of our inheritance (v. 29.30). "redemption of our body" not the physical body only, but all of man's remaining falleness (v. 66,12: 7:5: 1 Cor. 15:35-44: Phil 3:20,21: 2 Peter 1:3,4: 1 John 3:2).
---Mark_V. on 2/3/12


Barb, Paul is proven to be an Apostle that propagated the gospel. And you are a perfect example of his "thorn in the flesh." Because before his conversion he persecuted the church of God. But then, yes, praise God! hallelujah! Christ himself strikes him with blinding light and speaks out of heaven to him, saying, "SAUL! SAUL! Why persecute you me? I am Jesus whom you persecute: that hard for you to kick against the prickles." Now since he was prominent in persecuting Christians, but now he himself became a Christian, the Christians did not trust him, and when he tried to talk with his Roman friends, they too did not trust him for now he was also preaching Christ, whom the Romans persecute.
---Eloy on 2/2/12


Men have forever accused people like Eloy of being false prophets, when they are really true prophets.
---John.usa on 2/2/12


Barb, Peter excepted Paul as an Apostle, but it seems like your mind is made up. What does it matter if the majority of the NT Churches in the bible, and according to historical records were founded by Paul? I wonder why he suffered all of those hardships for Christ, maybe he was just off his rocker, going to jail for preaching, wipped, beaten, betrayed, stoned and on and on, pretty disturbed fellow if you ask me.
Adieu
---Poppa_Bear on 2/2/12


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Popa, the bible was written by men. Men chose what books would go into it and which would be left out. God has preserved his Word through His Son and I believe it is up to us to use our God given intelligence to differenciate between the truth and the lies (tares and wheat) in the bible.

It is the Holy Spirit who speaks to us and not the writers of the bible.
---barb on 2/2/12


Barb, Sorry to hear your view on the Bible.
In His grip
---Poppa_Bear on 2/2/12


David, I don't want to bash Paul but sometimes he just asks for it.

I stick to the words of Jesus Christ as recorded for us by His eyewitness disciples Matthew and John. I do not believe that Paul was taught by Jesus. I do not believe his Damascus Road story and I do not like the way he talks to and about the apostles of Jesus Christ. Therefore I do not regard anything he says as the truth. We have full approval from Jesus to test the apostles Rev 2:2 and I have done so and have found Paul to be false
---barb on 2/2/12


My problem with eloy is that he is a false prophet. Now he is writing his own bible because God didn't do a good enough job. Some of his imterpretations are out on pluto.
---shira4368 on 2/2/12


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Eloy, in the context (John 14:3) has nothing whatsoever to do with "Adoption." What it is saying is, that He goes to prepare a place for the believers. He doesn't say they were adopted, only that those saved will have a place. It is not a home away an adoption agency. Sounds religious but has nothing to do with (John 14:3).
---Mark_V. on 2/2/12


"adoption" here speaks of being "added" to Christ's dwelling, as Jesus promised in John 14:3. Paul is speaking about waiting for our Lord's 2nd Coming when he will descend in the clouds and the trumpet will sound and at which time his body will be redeemed and he will be gathered up to meet the Lord in the air, and forever be with the Lord.
---Eloy on 2/2/12


"Blessed they of clean heart, for they will see God." Israel my glory.
http colon forward-slash forward-slash eloy1 dot weebly dot com
---Eloy on 2/2/12


Shira, I don't know what you and Eloy are rowing over , but here is a Pre Gospel passage on the prophesy of crucifixion day, I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting." -Isaiah 50:6 The Suffering Servant.
In His loving grip
---Poppa_Bear on 2/1/12


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eloy, how do you know Jesus had a beard? Where in scripture do you find that? I would like a response from a King James bible and not from the bible of eloy. The bible does it is a shame for man to have long hair.
---shira4368 on 2/1/12


David and MarkV, sorry that i was coming across as terse when i was going for matter of fact. .---aka on 1/29/12

Terse?
Aka you have never given me call to think you would respond to me in such a manner.
Your posts are educational and well thought out, and occassionaly I even learn a thing or two from them.
---David on 1/30/12


The city Jerusalem may be metaphorically called, "her" in Scripture. But the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ, and therefore 100% masculine. Since God is always masculine, as the Father, and the King of kings, and the Lord of lords, and also Jesus has a beard, thus the Holy Spirit or breath of God proceeding from him is masculine. Yes, in the Godhead is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and no mothers exist, for the man was made in God's shape, not the woman, and woman was made for man, not God. The Holy Spirit Shiloh is called by the personal pronoun "He"(Isaiah 40:13, John 14:26, 15:26, 16:7,8,13-15). Please read Genesis 1:2, 2:7, Matthew 1:18, John 20:22,23.
---Eloy on 1/30/12


Yes, David I am saying that being born into the family of God is not the same as being adopted in.
---barb on 1/29/12


Barb
In (Romans 8) what do you think Paul is talking about when adoption is mentioned, if it is not being born again?
---David on 1/30/12


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Aka, no problem brother, I love to discuss Scripture. The more questions I have to look up, the more I study.

Barb, most of the passages in Revelation are symbolic. In Chapter 12 most theologians believe the woman does not represent Christ, nor the church in general, but rather "Israel" as the matrix from which Christ came. By contrast, other representive women are mentioned in the Apocalypse such as Jezebel (2:20), representive of false religion as a system, The harlot (17:1-7. 15-18) the apostate church of the future, and the bride, Lamb's wife (19:7), the church joined to Christ in glory.
---Mark_V. on 1/30/12


David and MarkV, sorry that i was coming across as terse when i was going for matter of fact.

i usually do not call out anyone directly, but i take especial exception not to misunderstandings but full-on attacks that undermine the whole truth.

it was Mark's post that made me realize that placement and adoption are really synonymous and parts of the same thing.. i worked for an agency that provided adoption services. the adoption process requires placement. so,times it whithers and dies and sometimes it takes and bears fruit.
---aka on 1/29/12


Yes, David I am saying that being born into the family of God is not the same as being adopted in. Mark V is correct when he states that born again means being born from above. Jesus was born from above and was not adopted but was declared God's Son at His Baptism and again at His transfiguration.

Mark V, Jesus did have a spiritual mother and we see her in Rev. 12 where she gives Him birth and then in verse 17 we see her giving birth to the rest of her offspring which are the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ. I know you will say that it is the church giving birth to Jesus but that would be backwards because the remnant or the church appears after the birth and death of Christ. The church cannot give birth to itself.
---barb on 1/29/12


Adoption, as Paul uses it, we're placed as full sons. Not one taken legally from another family, but a son placed as a full partner with Christ. The moment we're saved, we're born into the family of God, placed as the full heir with Jesus Christ." We don't have to work, hoping to obtain this position, but it happens the moment we believe, and that's why we can say, "Abba, Father" At Salvation we are born into the family of God, but there comes another act of God that places us then as full heir.
Rom 8:16,17 "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we ARE the children of God: And if children, then heirs of God (not just an heir waiting for an inheritance, but WE ARE joint-heirs with Christ,..."
---michael_e on 1/29/12


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AKA
I thought your post was very educational, and I liked the translation that you gave, but don't see it's meaning to be much different from the word Adoption.

I am not familiar with Barbs beliefs, and didn't want to believe she had a problem with Paul's letters, but in the context in which many people are taught Paul's letters, it really doesn't suprize me. Many protestant teachings unknowingly make the teachings of Jesus Christ look like lies.
Thanks for the heads up.
---David on 1/28/12


translators used adoption the correct term would be sonship

True Believers are joint-heirs with Christ now Rom 8:17 and begotten now waiting to be born again John 3:3-6 to inherit all things when Christ returns when all things will be put under HIM at HIS return Heb 2:8

Apostles taught the inheritance of our spiritual eternal life would happen when Christ returns 1John 3:2

Rom 8:15 describes the event happening now as begotten children of GOD

Rom 8:23 describes the event of becoming the sons of GOD at Christs return as confirmed in Eph 1:13-14 1Corin 15 Rom 8:19,23

True Believers are not adopted they wait for their inheritance to be the sons of GOD when we will be like Christ and SEE HIM 1John 3:2
---Rhonda on 1/28/12


Aka, I was not arguing with you, just discussing with you. And, none of the words found in Scripture are the original words, Paul didn't lterally say "adoption" he didn't speak English. In my lexical aids the word "adoption" comes from the word "Huiothesia" That was the revisers word for that meaning.
Concerning Barb, she doesn't know what she is talking about with the mother of Jesus, for Christ had no mother, He is eternal. Not even worth listening to that.
David, is wrong also since born again is not the same word for adoption in the Greek. Born again literally means "born from above" Two different context, different meanings. Peace brother.
---Mark_V. on 1/28/12


//Aka, Paul's words for adoption in (Eph. 1:4-6),// markv

pauls word in his letter to the church at ephesus (which did not have verses when Paul wrote it.) is not adoption. he uses the word 'uiothesia'. if you want to use the word adoption, that is fine.

david, barb and i are saying quite the opposite. she is trying (as she tries in most every blog that she posts) to discredit Paul thus circumventing the full revelation and throwing us back to a form of Judaism.

my point is that Paul is saying what jesus said. you can use placing or adoption if you want.
---aka on 1/28/12


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Barb
I'm confused as to what your argument is.
Are you saying being born into the family of God, and being adopted into the family of God, are two different things?
Or are you saying what AKA says, that all the Bible translators were wrong when they use the word adoption?
---David on 1/28/12


Aka, Paul's words for adoption in (Eph. 1:4-6),

"Just as He chose us in Him before the creation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ Himself"

Just as an adoption agency where many children live, a person chooses one or two, from all the rest, the same holds true concering God's Elect.
Human parents can bestow their love and recourses on an adopted child. But God miraculously gives His own nature to those whom He has elected who have trusted in Christ. He makes them His children in the image of His divine Son. Giving them not just Christ's riches, and blessings but also His very nature.
---Mark_V. on 1/28/12


barb, your blasphemy and false doctrine is sickening: There is NO mother in the Godhead! God is The Father, and so is His Spirit!
---Eloy on 1/28/12


David, when one is born by the Holy Spirit he is born into the family of God not adopted. His father is God, his mother is the Holy Spirit who gives him life and his brother is Jesus. Rev. 21:7.

Matt 12:47-50 "For whosever shall do the will of my Father which is in Heaven, the same is my brother and sister and mother". Jesus does NOT say my half sibling or my adopted sibling.

When we are born by the Holy Spirit we will no longer be of the world. We will be in the world but not of it. John 17 10-20.

Being born of the Spirit is an ongoing process. It is a learning process that cannot be completed thru adoption.
---barb on 1/27/12


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Does Jesus say anything about being adopted into His family? Nope.---barb on 1/26/12

Barb
True, Jesus did not use the word "Adopted", Jesus used the words "Born Again".
Adopt means to take and rear the child of other parents as one's own child.
If you are born of God, he will rear you as his own child, even though you were born of different parents.
---David on 1/27/12


Does Jesus say anything about being adopted into His family? barb

no. neither does Paul. Again the common language "english" fails us to realize the fulness of the sciptures...as do the pastors (and Judaizers) for not searching for the truth, and our willingness to gobble simplicity up. The phrase "adoption as sons" used above is a translation of one Greek word, "uiothesia". This word is composed by the word uios that means "son" and the word thesis that means placing. Uiothesia therefore means the "placing as sons". Therefore, 'adoption' is a poor translation that preachers probably mistakenly use and Judizers definitely use to deny the full power of the revelation of Jesus Christ.
---aka on 1/27/12


Does Jesus say anything about being adopted into His family? Nope. He teaches us that we must be born by the Holy Spirit into the Kingdom of God. John 3:3-8.

Jesus overcame the world John 16:33 and so must we. No one who is following Jesus Christ is waiting to be adopted, they will be overcomers just as Jesus was. Rev. 21:7, Rev. 2:11, Rev. 2:17, Rev. 2:26 and Rev. 3:12.
---barb on 1/26/12


The sinner is adopted on the account that Christ's death at Calvary set him free from the curse of the law.---christan on 1/24/12

Can you tell us according to your Theology, how someone will know when they have been adopted, since you believe they will have the same symptom's they had before the adoption?
How will they know this adoption has taken place?

I can show you many verses from many New Testament writers, including Paul, which says the symptoms of the curse are removed with the curse.
Can you show us a verse which says that the Sons of God will continue to sin?

BTW...thanks for the correction, a cough in the way I used it is due to a flu virus and not a cold virus.
---David on 1/25/12


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"If someone coughs they have the symtoms of a cold, but when the cold virus dies, do they still cough?" David

Your analogy of the above is flawed that what you tried explaining makes no sense. When someone coughs, he's having a bad/sore throat aka tonsillitis or from smoking too much. True that one of the symptoms of flu/cold is sore throat but there are those who cough everyday, does it mean that are having a flu/cold?

The doctrine of adoption is simply God's sovereign election of the sinner in Christ before the foundations of the world. The sinner is adopted on the account that Christ's death at Calvary set him free from the curse of the law. In adoption, the saved sinner is passive. Go read Galatians 4:1-7.
---christan on 1/24/12


Folks
Those who are adopted into the Family of God, are called the "Sons of God"(Romans 8:14).
In Romans, Paul gives us irrefutable evidence to tell us when this adoption has taken place.
That evidence, is the death of our sinful flesh.
If something is dead, does it still exibit the symtoms it did when it lived?
Sin is the irrefutable evidence, that the sinful flesh is still alive.

If someone coughs they have the symtoms of a cold, but when the cold virus dies, do they still cough?


---David on 1/24/12


//7x70// <> 490.

forgiveness is not a multiplication equation.

70 times 7 = 77 ... number of perfection twice.

there is more significance to numbers in the bible than what is taught in "church."

there is truth in numbers and there is falsehood in the secret use of numbers...

e.g. twin towers look like 11. there is power in pairs...witness... or lack thereof.

man and wife equal one. why do you think there is an attempt to separate what God declared one into 1+1 or 11.

the permutations are endless.
---aka on 1/24/12


David, Romans 8:23 does not imply "those who were still waiting to be adopted" as you suggest.

What Paul is saying is the true Christian now awaits the final fruition of the adoption to happen, ie being with the Lord or as Paul describes, the final glorification (in the same chapter). For verse 24,25 says,

"For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it."

Doesn't a Christian look forward with hope to be with the Lord for eternity? I do.
---christan on 1/23/12


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Agree with Bill and Cluny.
7x70
---Poppa_Bear on 1/23/12


You've misquoted the vs. 15, which refers to the Spirit of Adoption--another name for the Holy Spirit.

You also misunderstand V 23, which clearly says that WE--including St. Paul----were waiting for adoption, which means "the redemption of our body", that is resurrection and glorification in the World to Come.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/23/12


In Romans 8:23 my Bible says, "we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body." So, I can see this does not mean "who" is not adopted, but how "our body" has not been adopted. And here adoption means how the Holy Spirit brings our body into resurrectional glory.

But already, as Romans 8:15 shows, we ourselves spiritually have been adopted by the Holy Spirit, "the Spirit of adoption".
---Bill_willa6989 on 1/23/12


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