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When You Receive A Soul

Does scripture tell us when a human body receives a soul? Is it at conception, first breath, or a different time--and is the answer to this the thing that drives the abortion controversy?

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 ---Geraldine on 1/23/12
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Lee: You have an inordinate capacity for believing contradictory paradigms. Yes, Lazarus was alive AFTER Jesus resurrected him, but that's not the issue. Did Jesus and Martha believe that Lazarus was alive (albeit as a non-corporeal spook) while he was dead? Your philosophy notwithstanding, the answer from Scripture is a resounding NO!


---jerry6593 on 2/18/12


The soul is not separate from the body, they are integrated together as one life, just as the blood is not separate from the blood veins, nor is the air separate from the lungs. Life starts with a thought, "I will have a son or a daughter, or let us make a baby", then the Spirit adds to this thought to cause the action necessary to bring forward the thought, namely, producing the child. And if you know about the birds and the bees, the man and woman get busy together and the man's seed is planted inside the woman and conception begins. All this is life, the thought, the Spirit, the blood, the seed, the conception, even the baby actively living and growing inside of the womb, the infants soul is not the man's soul nor the woman's soul.
---Eloy on 2/18/12


Rhonda - Interesting choice of words you claim those who understand the dead are asleep are ignorant YET Apostles state YOU are ignorant

1Thess 4:13
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which [have died], that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which [have died].

Both of these verses speak of the body, not the spirit in man.

YOUR DENIAL of those who are dead and yet whose spirit is with the Lord (Lk. 23:46 Christ had a spirit, Acts 7:59 Stephen had a spirit), is to DENY the Scripture as well as the power of God.
---lee1538 on 2/18/12


//Notice that neither Jesus or Martha believed that Lazarus was alive at that time, but rather that he would be MADE ALIVE in the future (SHALL means future), at the resurrection AT THE LAST DAY.

Since Jesus is the Resurrection, it is He that will cause the dead to arise and He did just that with Lazarus. There was nothing to prevent Him from doing this anytime He wished.

Yes, the body will experience the resurrection at the end of time, and be united with the spirit that has gone to be with the Lord at the death of the body.

Believeth thou that 'everyone who lives and believes in [Jesus] shall NEVER die."?
---lee1538 on 2/18/12


Lee: You have gone strangely silent.

Believest thou this, Lee?


---jerry6593 on 2/18/12




Hebraic: Soul is the whole being-or self, the whole person and unity of the body, breath, and mind etc...
Deut: 6:4
And thou shalt love Yahweh with all thy [heart], and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Heart/mind (inner self), and with our soul (whole self-function/action) and with all of our everything (everything we possess)-gradation-from the small/the large.

Shalom
---char on 2/14/12


HaShem "The Name" who sustain all and is in all.
Ha- "The"
Shem-"Name"
Shema-(hear) name-position-understood
Deut 6:4
Hear [Shem-Sh'ma-Name], O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Y'sha-God Savior
---char on 2/14/12


"Those that advocate soul sleep really are ignorant of the power that is in God."
*****

Interesting choice of words you claim those who understand the dead are asleep are ignorant YET Apostles state YOU are ignorant

1Thess 4:13
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

YOUR DENIAL of those who are asleep is to DENY the resurrection of ALL

1 Corinthians 15:18
Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
---Rhonda on 2/14/12


Hebraic: Soul is the whole being.Nephesh [H:5315] appetite, beast, body, breath,creature,dead, desire, fish,ghost,heart, life,lust,man,mind,one, person,self,thing,will, soul
Translations influence Biblical concepts.
Gen 1:24,2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a[ living soul.]
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the [living creature] after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing,and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

The two phrases in Hebrew are identical: nephesh hhayah [H:5315 and H:2416] a living soul.
Hebrew perspective mind, we are composed of multiple entities flesh, bone, breath, mind, emotion, organs, etc
---char on 2/14/12


Soul as in breath(ne-shamah/ne-shem-ah)from the root word-to breath and centers from shem(Name),to inhale and exhale. Neshamah reveals the presence of the Name it is assigned to.Ex6:3,Rev14:1 Jn10:3 he calleth his own sheep by Name.
Spirit-ruach-ruachah:is the presence of breath and from where the very presence of life comes. HaShem "The Name" who sustain all and is in all.
Ha- "The"
Shem-"Name"
Shema-(hear)name-position-understood
Yah appoints man to become a living soul.
---char on 2/14/12




Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet IN MY FLESH shall I see God:
Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another, though my reins be consumed within me.

JOB EXPECTED TO DIE, HAVE HIS FLESH ROT, AND SEE HIS REDEEMER IN THE LAST DAY.

Not in spirit or in soul, but with his own two flesh eyes did he expect to see Jesus
---francis on 2/13/12


Lee: "Do you Jerry believe this?"

Yes! I believe exactly what Jesus and Martha believed:

Joh 11:23-25 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother SHALL rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he SHALL rise again in the resurrection AT THE LAST DAY. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet SHALL he live:

Notice that neither Jesus or Martha believed that Lazarus was alive at that time, but rather that he would be MADE ALIVE in the future (SHALL means future), at the resurrection AT THE LAST DAY.

Believest thou this, Lee?


---jerry6593 on 2/13/12


John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

It means
1: Those who die in Christ will be resurrected and live forever
2: Those who are alive in christ when he returns will not die, but will receive eternal life

1 Thessalonians 4:16 and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
---francis on 2/12/12


Jerry -

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you Jerry believe this?"

Never die simply means that the believer will stay alive in the spirit but be dead in the body.

Sorry Jerry boy but I do not accept what you view as a metaphor as NO Biblical commentary supports that view.

The reason that soul sleep is a minority view is because it has the least support either in Scripture or in church history.
---lee1538 on 2/11/12


Lee, very good points you gave. I suppose it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that when a person dies physically the body is not asleep, it is dead and turns to dust. The spirit has no phyical body and does not need sleep. (Eph. 2:4-7) reveals to us that when we are made spiritually alive by God, who is rich in mercy, He made us alive together with Christ and raised us up together, and made us seat together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" The spirit is with the Lord. There is no separation from the love of God anymore. Something so simple if one believes in been born again of the Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 2/11/12


Lee: "2 Corintians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Paul used this metaphor three times. It is the same as our "though I'm absent from you (the body of Christ - the church), I'm with you in spirit". Any other interpretation conflicts with the preponderance of Scripture.

Did Jesus ascend to heaven in bodily form or as a spirit? What makes you think you will be different?


"Those that advocate soul sleep really are ignorant of the power that is in God."

Those that deny soul sleep call Jesus a liar (John 11:11).
---jerry6593 on 2/11/12


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2 Corintians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The verse does not even imply there is a intermediate stop between the death of the body and when the spirit of man goes to be with the Lord.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, ... shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If the spirit that is in man were to go to sleep, then sleep would indeed separate one from the love of God.

Those that advocate soul sleep really are ignorant of the power that is in God.
---lee1538 on 2/10/12


AMEN Jerry

a few more I can add

Luke 1:41
And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb, and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Luke 1:42
And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

If the womb has fruit and it is BLESSED Christians who argue for abortion are AGAINST GOD and become numb to life by openly accepting murder by using man made theories about when a body "receives" a soul to soothe their conscious about killing babies
---Rhonda on 2/9/12


Rhonda: Well put!


Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Psa 71:6 By thee have I been holden up from the womb: thou art he that took me out of my mother's bowels: my praise shall be continually of thee.

Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.


---jerry6593 on 2/9/12


Geraldine, as to your question, I believe when the infant in the womb has life. For the soul is when God brings life. Not only does all creation bear witness to the great power of God, but also to His entire independency of all created things even our own being. No creature has the power to preserve itself, for God is the Preserver of "man and beast" (Psa. 36:6). He "upholdeth all things by the word of His power" (Heb.1:3) The divine power is the prenatal life of every human being. That an infant can live at all in the womb, and for many months, in such cramped and filthy quarters, and that without breathing, is unaccountable without the power of God. Truely He "Holdeth our soul in life" (Psa. 66:9).
---Mark_V. on 2/6/12


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Mark E, thank you so much for discussing this principals of Scripture with me. I really enjoyed answering you, one day we will know it all, peace I leave you brother.
---Mark_V. on 2/4/12


Lee:

"My interpretation is that the human body receives a soul not at conception but at birth. I know that I do not subscribe to the accepted definition, but I chose to believe conception occurs when a fertilized egg attaches itself to the walls of the uterus"

Which is it? At birth or at uterine attachment.


The Blog question is flawed. Can anyone provide a scripture (KJV) that states that a person "receives a SOUL"? My Bible says that man is composed of dust and God's "breath of life", whereupon man BECOMES a living SOUL.


---jerry6593 on 2/4/12


the controversy about abortion has never been about a "soul"

the truth is abortion is KILLING

abortion is the new-age term that is USED to mask the word KILL and by making up a new word for KILL by using a medical term called abortion MAJORITY have accepted the killing of babies

abortion is human butchery ...the baby is slaughtered in an extremely violent manner and because the baby is in the womb and cannot be seen or heard society has accepted this genocide

in biblical times a BABY was in the womb it was never referred to as anything LESS
---Rhonda on 2/4/12


Mark E 2: Concerning hope. Hope is Christ. But the living who are lost have no hope. They need to believe there is a hope for them, otherwise they don't believe in hope, because they don't believe in Christ. In hell, they have no hope. If there was hope in hell to reach out to them I know they would change their minds real fast, just to get out of hell as the rich man in the parable, or hope that God would just go ahead an kill them to stop the pain. It sounds terrible but what they did against a Holy and Righteous God was terrible, not even counting what they did to the people they hurt or killed while alive. They only get what they deserve, but it's everlasting.
---Mark_V. on 2/2/12


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Mark E, I understand why you say that the unbelievers will not come to Christ if they know of hell. You have to remember that unbelievers do not believe in God, satan or hell. And that we are not trying to convince anyone to change their minds. We cannot worry about what they think, they are unbelievers. What we are commanded to do is, to give the Truth. The gospel. That is all we can do. It is the gospel that saves. How nice we put it to them does not matter if we compromise the Truth to make them change their minds. We cannot make them change their minds, God has to do that. He changes the minds and the hearts with His Word. If God has them ready to receive the gospel Truth, they will, when they hear it, and they will believe it through faith.
---Mark_V. on 2/2/12


But there will be no hope in hell. No mercy,
---Mark_V. on 2/2/12

I agree totally with your post. However, I must add to it.

Hope is for the living, not the dead. Some unbelievers may erroneously believe that if they are going to "spend eternity" somewhere, that Hades is okay because God may change His mind and release them in the future.

I find that unbelieving people find it more disturbing knowing that God is going to completely destroy them at a future time than if they spend the rest of eternity in Hades. It is the finality and the certainty of death that makes people think about their lack of faith in Christ and that the only way to life is with Christ.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/2/12


Mark E, this is what you also said,

"Death is not hope for anyone. Life, even in punishment, is better than death".

You reason that dying is no hope for anyone, but if you are in hell been tormented day and night, you would hope that it stop and God just kill you to stop the pain. But there will be no hope in hell. No mercy, that only happens when you are alive physically. In death there is no punishment. You can whip a dead body and he feels nothing. As I said before, those who are separated from God will wish they die in order to continue to be separated from God. But even there, there is no hope. He will be present to bring judgment.
---Mark_V. on 2/2/12


//Does scripture tell us when a human body receives a soul? Is it at conception, first breath, or a different time--and is the answer to this the thing that drives the abortion controversy?

My interpretation is that the human body receives a soul not at conception but at birth.

I know that I do not subscribe to the accepted definition, but I chose to believe conception occurs when a fertilized egg attaches itself to the walls of the uterus for it is only then that a woman can be declared to be with child.

All too often a fertilized egg does not or cannot attach itself as in the case of IUDs.
---lee1538 on 2/1/12


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Lee, my reasoning no where comes close to why God made this perticular plan and all that is in it, all I can do is try to interpret His Word to the best of my ability. And of course hell has many names, I said hell because it is a one of the symbols. The word "eternal damnation" and "eternal death" is from God's Word. Eternal life" has the same words as 'eternal death." I believe His Word and have no reason why some are saved and others or not. What I do know is that He thought it best to do it the way He did it. I could not phathom what it is to be God. Just too many things to do with so many people and so much earth, and so much heaven, and that is not even speaking of the spiritual realm.
---Mark_V. on 2/1/12


//While there is no passages mentioning immortal bodies for the lost, we are told they will receive bodies prepared for hell.

True but hell is not the lake of fire.

You are now building a rationale for your viewpoint, however, using the same approach, we could say that since there is no evidence of the reprobate being given immortality, they could be destroyed in the lake of fire.

Also if we were to use again another reasoning, we could question what purpose would God have in eternal torment.

It would make more sense simply to destroy the reprobate as a Potter would an unacceptable clay pot.
---lee1538 on 1/31/12


Lee, the punishment for believers while alive is for correction. The punishment for the lost after death on judgment Day is eternal damnation. No rehabilitation there.
While there is no passages mentioning immortal bodies for the lost, we are told they will receive bodies prepared for hell. And since the punishment is eternal, their bodies will have to be eternal.
I know that a breath of relief is usually heard from the ungodly when someone declares, "Hell is a symbol for separation from God" for to be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God, but it will be the presence of God that will torment them.
---Mark_V. on 1/31/12


The purpose of punishment is correction not destruction.

If the damned are punished in the lake of fire, then they may be rehabitated after that punishment is completed. However, if the damned cease to exist, then they are not punished but simply destroyed.

Like the Potter with the clay, non-believers can be destroyed like clay pots not acceptable to the Potter.

Where do we find the scripture that indicates or even hints of the belief that everyone possesses immortality since 1 Cor. 15:53 speaks of the believer as putting on immortality?
---lee1538 on 1/31/12


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Mark E, I am talking to the wrong person. For eternal death means just that eternal, or else it would have said only death. To be eternally condemned is not to die in hell. "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation" (Mark 3:28) "Eternal" means forever, "damnation" "Krisis" means sentence, judgment, eternal is his sentence, and it does not stop.
To blaspheme the Holy Spirit is to completely negat and fofeit any possibility of present or future forgiveness of sins, because he has wholly rejected the only basis of God's salvation, since the Holy Spirit testifies of Christ.
---Mark_V. on 1/31/12


If you believe there is hope in hell, then I'm talking to the wrong person.
---Mark_V. on 1/31/12

Why do you and Christan continue to change the subject? The subject is the second death.

Where did you get the idea I have a belief in hope in hell?

I believe in the second death. The non-existence of people when they are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

You and Christan believe that unbelievers will "live" in punishment for eternity. That seems like hope to me.

Death is not hope for anyone. Life, even in punishment, is better than death.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/31/12


Mark E, I'm not going to go on and on with you. You have a right to believe what you want to believe. I cannot change that.
But let me say something to you. Only in this life do people have a hope, and that hope is in Jesus Christ. Once they die, there is no more hope. Those is hell will hope the pain ends. They will wish that they are anniliated so that the pain stops. The only hope they had was Christ. People can endure the greatest agony if they know it will ultimately stop. In hell there is no such hope. If you believe there is hope in hell, then I'm talking to the wrong person. The same words are used for eternal life and eternal death.
(Matt. 8:11,12: Mark 9:42-48: Luke 16:19-31: Jude 1:3-13: Rev. 20:11-15).
---Mark_V. on 1/31/12


For Jesus Himself tells us they are.
---Mark_V. on 1/31/12

Show me the passage, BCV please.

Let me post what I expect you to say. Matt 25:46.

What I propose to you is to read that entire passage and tell me the first time you see the word "eternal" in that passage. It is in verse 41 and it is in reference to eternal fire. The Lake of Fire and the second death spoken in Rev 20.

However, also read Heb 6:2 which describes eternal judgment or sentence.

Reading the two passages together, it is the sentence that is eternal, the condemnation that is eternal. The punishment is concluded at the second death in the Lake of Fire but the results are eternal.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/31/12


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Mark E, Christan first gave you the passage in (Rev. 20:11) to present to you that the punishment is eternal. Then he asked you,
"Or are you going to tell us that only the devil, the beast and the false prophet are the only ones being tormented minus the unbelievers?"
You only responded to (Rev. 20:10) in the context. But just because the three are mentioned does not mean that those who rejected and rebelled against God are not included. For Jesus Himself tells us they are. Your refusal to believe this comes from the interpretation of one passage only, that only the three will be punish forever.
---Mark_V. on 1/31/12


What you are literally saying is, if we do not accept your interpretation of the Bible,
---Mark_V. on 1/30/12

What you did not do, is read Christan's post.

Christan said to me "are you going to tell us that only the devil, the beast and the false prophet are the only ones being tormented minus the unbelievers?"

Well, according to Scripture (Rev 20:10), only those three are tormented forever. Christan does not believe that and said it to me in the post. If that is not believing Scripture when you read it, I'll eat my hat and I don't wear a hat.
And that is who I feel sorry for, for people who do not believe what is plainly written.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/30/12


Mark E, you said to Christan,

"I believe the Bible literally. ... I feel sad for anyone who reads the Bible and does not accept what it says"

What you are literally saying is, if we do not accept your interpretation of the Bible, those are the ones you feel sorry for, But don't feel so bad, your interpretation is wrong. The punishment will not cease. It is called eternal death. You see Mark, in hell there is no such hope. If, the punishment ended, they would have some hope, but there is no hope in hell. The same word is used for both "eternal life" and "eternal death."
---Mark_V. on 1/30/12


See how erroneous and foolish your understanding is on eternal death?
---christan on 1/27/12

Why do you continually misread Scripture?

If Scripture says that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are the only ones to be tormented forever, why don't you believe it? Why do you always need to be right and in doing so, make the Bible wrong?

I believe the Bible literally. Unless you do, please do not accuse me of being erroneous and foolish. I feel sad for anyone who reads the Bible and does not accept what it says.

As Thomas Jefferson found out when he decided he wanted only selected passages from the Bible, your theology has holes in it.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/30/12


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Lee, there is no problem. Since God has predestined me to hell, it's a done deal. I bow to his will and his wisdom.
---John.usa on 1/29/12


John.usa// am exempt because I am one of the majority of humans who are predistined reprobates. I'm going to burn in hell with Hitler and Mother Teresa and the rest of the Catholics. :)
---
Yes, there will be many who claim they believe in Christ, but will find Jesus telling them 'depart from me, I never knew you'.

The question I would ask you is what does the Scripture teach? Perhaps that is where you should start in finding an answer to your problem.
---lee1538 on 1/28/12


Lee, actually, I am exempt because I am one of the majority of humans who are predistined reprobates. I'm going to burn in hell with Hitler and Mother Teresa and the rest of the Catholics. :)
---John.usa on 1/28/12


John said, His fate is already sealed. How does this affect you? In the abstract it may sound good, but the personal application still leads to a personal responsibility, so, will you, Repent, and believe on the name of Jesus? Thats the question for everyone who hears the Gospel, to reject or except Christs work. Will you make the personal decision to proclaim Him to the nations, or deny Him before men? Thats specific, tangible, rubber meeting the road. What will your response be, God you made me this way, so its your fault? God will not reject a broken and contrite heart, thats a promise, So many invitations in the word to be saved, do you except?
---Poppa_Bear on 1/28/12


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John.usa - what you say is true, however, we still have an obligation to obey Him in all details of our lives as He wishes to complete his will in our lives.
---lee1538 on 1/28/12


I was told that before the world began it was already predetermined who will go to heaven and who will burn in hell. So ultimately it doesn't matter if someone is aborted or if he lives to a ripe old age. His fate is already sealed.
---John.usa on 1/27/12


Mark Eaton, if the second death means according to what you say is true, then please tell us what John was then implying in the very same chapter when he said, "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Revelation 20:10

Does this tormenting of eternal death sounds like the soul and spirit of the unbeliever ceases to exist? Doesn't sound one bit like what you said. Or are you going to tell us that only the devil, the beast and the false prophet are the only ones being tormented minus the unbelievers?

See how erroneous and foolish your understanding is on eternal death?
---christan on 1/27/12


"which means what? these sayings are not real?" glen

Which means you calling Jesus a liar for telling us about a place call Hades and Paradise? That's the teaching in Luke 16:20-31.

FYI, when Jesus spoke of Abraham's bosom, it simply means Lazarus was affectionately brought to Paradise, simply means God loved Lazarus and not the rich man.

FYI, Jesus is giving us a picture that when someone dies, he is immediately brought to either Hades and Paradise to await the final judgment, not that the wicked are not already judged, that's why they go straight to Hades. And the blessed will go to Paradise. It does not mean everyone is asleep literally until Judgement Day according to your very dark understanding.
---christan on 1/27/12


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"which means what? these sayings are not real?"

Yes thats correct

is there a real place called abrahams bosom?

NO!

if so then what was it called before abraham?

When did abrahams bosom exist?
from the beginning of creation?

Was lazarus literally taken inside Abrhams chest?'

NO!

what happens after someone dies?

punishment or judgment?

"it is appointed unto men once to die", but we must also take into consideration what happens next: "but after this the judgment."

when is the judgment?

after the resurrection!

Abrahams bosom = Abrahams seed
---glen on 1/27/12


I never disagreed with you about eternal punishment


the resurrection is necessary for both punishment and reward


Consider what the Apostle Paul had to say concerning the necessity of the resurrection:

But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain, ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
---glen on 1/26/12


how do you even come to the conclusion that unbelievers will just cease to exist?
---christan on 1/25/12

By literally reading out of the Bible and not reading into the Bible.

When Rev 20 tells me that unbelievers will face the second death in the Lake of Fire, I accept that as fact. I do not try to interpret what the second death could mean. Death has always meant finality. Death is the absence of life. When the body dies, it ceases to live and function.

The second death must be the death of the soul, because the body has already died. Death to the soul means the soul will no longer live, it will no longer function. If the soul no longer lives, that person no longer exists.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/26/12


glen, you ended your previous post with "all these sayings are figurative", which means what? They are not for real? Is that why you assume, "How could he even speak or think clearly in this situation?"

Christ declared, "...that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame.", you dare challenge Christ saying, "Why would the rich man ask for a measly drop of water to cool his "tongue" when he is engulfed in flames?" This is a picture of torment!

And when did all this take place? Before or after Judgement Day? Immediately after the rich man died! Just be careful of what you say against the Scripture.
---christan on 1/25/12


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"GOD is omnipresent. To be removed from the presence of GOD you have to cease to exist." Samuel

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Revelation 20:10

This is a prophesy by John in Revelation. Did he say that the devil, the beast, false prophet will cease to exist when they are removed from the presence of God? Maybe you like to rethink your understanding of the other verses you have quoted to justify the non-existence of the unbelievers after they die on earth. Because I'm sure that's not what it's meant to be according to you.
---christan on 1/25/12


christian

what the hell r u talking about?

i didn't say unbelievers are not going to hell

for a start hades is NOT gehenna they are 2 different things

And when are the wicked thrown into gehenna?
after they are judged

when are they judged?
after the resurrection!!!

Have i said anything wrong in this post so far?

now do you care to address my previous post?
---glen on 1/25/12


However, God has created you this way and I daren't challenge nor question His Sovereignty if it pleases Him to create "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction".

Talk about misreading Scriptures, you're in unbelief which will be rewarded with eternal death.
---christan on 1/25/12

Yes they are vessels fitted for destruction. Which means to be destroyed not kept in torment for all eternity. So your own words show that the wicked are destroyed.

GOD is omnipresent. To be removed from the presence of GOD you have to cease to exist.
---Samuel on 1/25/12


Mark Eaton & glen, if believers are rewarded with eternal life with the Lord Jesus Christ, how do you even come to the conclusion that unbelievers will just cease to exist? You're telling us that God's justice and wrath will not be accounted for in their unbelief?

I do know of people who do not belief in a heaven and hell but at least they are not hypocrites who claim to be "Christians", if you know what I mean. However, God has created you this way and I daren't challenge nor question His Sovereignty if it pleases Him to create "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction".

Talk about misreading Scriptures, you're in unbelief which will be rewarded with eternal death.
---christan on 1/25/12


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christian

what about the 3 or 4 verses by solomon that make it clear that the dead know nothing, there thoughts perish, among other things?

What was Abrahams bosom called before abraham existed?
/adams bosom? noahs bosom?

did lazarus literally go into abrahams chest?

how about abrahams seed which believers become when they get saved?

Why would the rich man ask for a measly drop of water to cool his "tongue" when he is engulfed in flames?

How could he even speak or think clearly in this situation?

"there thoughts perish"

all these sayings are figurative
---glen on 1/25/12


No one taught more about hell than Jesus...Eternal death does not equate to a state of non-existence
---christan on 1/24/12

Hell is for the soul of the dead prior to the final judgment. Just as paradise is for the believer.

You really know how to misread Scripture. The verse Rev 20:10 clearly tells you who will be tormented forever. It is the devil, beast, and false prophet.

Look at this verse, it explains about the second death. Your statement about eternal death does not equate to non-existence is odd. What else is death except finality? Why else would Jesus triumphing over death be important?

Rev 20:14 "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/25/12


If you believe that life begins at conception then we should consider banding the use of IUDs since they simply prevent a fertilized egg from attaching itself to the wall of a uterus.

Perhaps a better definition of where life begins would be when a fertilized egg becomes attached to a uterus. It is only then that a life can have a soul.
---lee1538 on 1/25/12


"The story of lazarus and the rich man is a parable not a literal event" glen

Do you even know what's the meaning of a parable? Judging from your comments, I think not. Anyways, let's entertain each other till either one of us decide it's time to wipe the dust of our feet.

Let's just say you are right, the soul and spirit of the man ceases to exist according to your "faith". Then why do you even bother to come into this blog with your likes to discuss and share the Word of God if you will not exist after you die?

Don't you have better things to do like living up your life and maybe have seven hundred wives, three hundred concubines without worrying that there will be any judgment coming your way?
---christan on 1/25/12


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christian

the writings of solomon make it clear that those who died lost awareness, the memory of them is forgotten, no knowledge etc in the grave which is hades/sheol

If the spirit (breath of life) leaves someone when they die then how can they be conscious?

A soul cannot exist without the spirit of life - this is obvious from genesis

The story of lazarus and the rich man is a parable not a literal event
---glen on 1/24/12


They rejected Gods mercy and forgiveness. They rejected his love.

What else is left but his wrath?
---JackB on 1/25/12


I don't think the Bible directly answers this, Geraldine.

But, among other things > there are people who so desire to have children, before they even get married. And so, they already are loving their children whom they so desire to have. So, they have given life and soul to their children, even years before they are conceived, I consider (c:

When a woman in the earlier scriptures conceived, she understood she had a child, as soon as she knew she had conceived, I would say.

Now, while the unborn is in the mother, I now consider that the mother's soul could be sharing life with the unborn at conception, somehow.

But loving the unborn is what really is needed.
---Bill_willa6989 on 1/25/12


lee1538, it's with a heavy heart to have read, "What possible purpose would serve God for making the damned suffer eternally?" Let's handle this from the biblical context and not with human emotions, which to begin with is already fallen and is an enmity to God.

Do you agree:
1. God is Holy and He must express His hate for sin?
2. For the Christian, His wrath fell on His Son, that's why they will have eternal life because Jesus died for their sins.
3. For the unbelievers, their sins will have to be paid for with their own lives in hell for all eternity and that's because God is just.

Paul declared, "For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."
---christan on 1/25/12


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What possible purpose would serve God for making the damned suffer eternally?
---lee1538 on 1/24/12


"The second death discussed in the Revelation 2:11 is complete death to the unbeliever, body and soul. No eternal punishment for the unbeliever." Mark Eaton

You do well to know which chapter taught the tripartite man. Knowing to find Scriptures is worthless when you do not believe. According to you, if there's no eternal punishment for the unbeliever, ALL the teachings by Christ about hell is utter nonsense and fables. No one taught more about hell than Jesus.

Eternal death does not equate to a state of non-existence, God will give the unbelievers an eternal body where their soul and spirit will reside so that they "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Revelation 20:10
---christan on 1/24/12


JESUS in the rich man and Lazarus was teaching lessons. The Jewish leaders taught the rich were blessed of GOD and the poor cursed. This parable showed the opposite. That those who do not care for others are cursed and that poverty does not show you are cursed.

Also they would not beleive because they did not believe Moses. That is why when JESUS did resurrect Lazarus they still would not believe because they did not believe what the Bible actually taught.
---Samuel on 1/24/12


"When you die your soul is dead it does not go anywhere or do anything." Blogger9211

Scripture confirms, "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, & breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, & man became a living soul." Gen. 2:7

According to Scripture, no other living creature God created is tripartite but man - made of body, soul & spirit. When the man dies, the body will return to dust...The soul & spirit is separated from the earthly vessel by God to either spend eternity in heaven or in hell.

If the soul is dead...Jesus was speaking nonsense...about the rich man & Lazarus after death in Lk. 16:20-31.
---christan on 1/24/12"


BRAVO CHRISTAN!!!
---Leon on 1/24/12


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The soul and spirit is separated from the earthly vessel by God to either spend eternity in heaven or in hell.
---christan on 1/24/12

I take exception to your response and to bloggers.

You quoted Genesis 2:7 but then you said in the remainder of the post that man is a living soul and spirit. Nowhere does Scripture say that.

The tripartite theory of man comes from one verse, 1 Thes 5:23 which is spoken to the church, believers in Christ. Only believers in Christ have the spirit of God living in them and are given new eternal life (spirit) as a result of their belief. The second death discussed in the Revelation 2:11 is complete death to the unbeliever, body and soul. No eternal punishment for the unbeliever.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/24/12


"When you die your soul is dead it does not go anywhere or do anything." Blogger9211

Scripture confirms, "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul." Genesis 2:7

According to Scripture, no other living creature God created is tripartite but man - made of body, soul and spirit. When the man dies, the body will return to dust as cursed by God. The soul and spirit is separated from the earthly vessel by God to either spend eternity in heaven or in hell.

If the soul is dead according to you, Jesus was speaking nonsense when He taught about the rich man and Lazarus after death in Luke 16:20-31.
---christan on 1/24/12


Soul is not something one receives, it is a state of being, a breathing creature from the Hebrew term Nephesh Strong's 5315 properly a breathing creature.

You do not get a soul, you are a soul from the movement you take your first breath to your last breath. Life begins at birth because you cannot independently breath air until you are born and breathing. When you die your soul is dead it does not go anywhere or do anything. At the time of the resurrection you get a new glorified body, where respirations is associates with a glorified body is undefined is scripture.

The Strong's 5315 definition would exceed 125 characters, but basically Soul is any living creature [animal including man] that breathes air long as it lives.
---Blogger9211 on 1/24/12


John the baptist "jumped for joy" in Elizabeth's belly so if you equate soul with self-awareness. I would say yes. As far a abortion controversy. This statement has been given many times. But people will do what they want to do, The book of James.
---Scott1 on 1/24/12


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Life begins at conception, and the soul is inherent in the life. The human body does not receive a soul. The human being becomes a living soul when he or she becomes consciously aware of his or her being. That awareness begins when the cognitive function of the brain is sufficiently developed. Adam is said to have become a living soul, because the Father gave him life, and awakened him to the reality of his being.
---joseph on 1/24/12


Well described and spoken, Candice.

On abortion, remember "Thou shalt not kill." The command is unconditional! Abortionists can justify all they want technically about when the human fetus is deemed to have life or not. It's the wicked hearts of man that will be subject to God's judgment.

This is what Christ taught, "You have heard that it was said to those of old, You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matthew 5:27,28. WOW! AWESOME!
---christan on 1/23/12


lets look at what scripture says, in genisis it says God brethed life into Adam,and adam became a living soul. So it seems when he breathed in the life he was alive,THEN became a living soul, so when children begin to breathe (it happens in the womb) they become a living soul.Remember Adam wasn't in the womb,also when the doctor clear the lungs when babies are born, they're still alive when born,so that doesn't count. Hope that helps.
---Candice on 1/23/12


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