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No Council Of Jerusalem

To what extent would the spread of Christianity have been hindered if Christianity was but an extension of Judaism? If the Council of Jerusalem would not have taken place?

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---lee1538 on 2/18/12
Do you eat blood, or do you observe the dietary laws, and not eat blood?
---francis on 2/19/12


Jerry - I do not believe the Jerusalm council in declaring Gentiles need abstain from blood or from things strangled is a declaration that they needed to observe the Levitical dietary laws. The injunction was given to facilitate functional relationships with those Jewish Christians who still desired to observe the tenets of Judaism. See Romans 14.

And you refuse to admit that my interpretation is much liken to that of the early church as we see nothing in their writings that supports your view that Gentiles had to convert to Judaism to be legit.

Sorry but your arguments for your distinctive Adventists views are extremely weak.
---lee1538 on 2/19/12


Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled( DIETARY LAW), and from blood ( DIETARY LAW).

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every ( sabbath day. ( SABBATH COMMANDMENTS)


YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE BLIND OR JUST NOT KNOW WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS TO MISS THESE LAWS

things strangled( DIETARY LAW Deuteronomy 14:21), and from blood (DIETARY LAW Leviticus 17:12).
---francis on 2/19/12


Lee: Have you stopped eating bloody an strangled meat yet? No? Kinda hypocritical for you to be bringing up the Jerusalem Council then, isn't it?


---jerry6593 on 2/18/12


There is no such thing as "the Council of Jerusalem". Scripture speaks of church councils which were comprised of the pastors and the elders and the scribes of the church, but not any specific "Council of Jerusalem". And even without any church councils, Christianity was never a mere extension of Judaism, but Christianity is the New and opposite faith of Judaism. Matthew chapter 5 makes it clear, Judaism is the ministry of death, an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, and soul for soul: but Christianity is the ministry of life, turn the other cheek when hit, and love the stranger and the enemy. old Mosaic law- Revenge and Kill: New Messianic Law- Love and Forgive.
---Eloy on 2/18/12




It is a waste of time to debate this issue with those who want desperately to believe the Jerusalem council was only about circumcision for Gentiles as clearly the issue was simply whether Gentile believers had to convert to Judaism to be legit.

Usually those that say circumcision - the rite of entry into Judaism - was the only issue do so because they wish to force certain OT laws onto the believer such as the Sabbath, dietary laws, etc. In doing so they reveal to us they have a salvation by works theology, that Jesus alone cannnot save one eternally.

Their trust is in their own fleshy works, that was the conclusion Paul came to in Philippians that as to works of righteousness, he was without fault but counted it all worthless.
---lee1538 on 2/18/12


leej must be sick.
I have not seen a post from him in a while
let's keep him in prayer
---francis on 2/16/12


---lee1538 on 2/13/12
Your queston is:
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

THE ANSWER
Isaiah 49:6 I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
---francis on 2/13/12


//For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

And Francis, if Gentiles who did not have the law did what the law required of them, how could that be if they did not observe the Jewish Sabbath?

Has it ever crossed your mind that you would benefit greatly if you found a Bible teaching church rather than the one olde Ellen White created?
---lee1538 on 2/13/12


For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

Gentiles, you may not know, were people that lives outside of Israel, had it own religions and culture.

If a Gentile wanted to become part of Israel they has to undergo circumcision - the rite of entry into the Jewish religion.
---lee1538 on 2/13/12
Good post
---francis on 2/13/12




Yes, Francis, since man was made in the image of God, he would know right from wrong.

However, the OT laws given at Mt. Sinai were more than just moral laws that all people to some degree already subscribed to.

And that comes out in Romans 2:14 as Gentiles who did not have the law, by nature obeyed the law.

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

Gentiles, you may not know, were people that lives outside of Israel, had it own religions and culture.

If a Gentile wanted to become part of Israel they has to undergo circumcision - the rite of entry into the Jewish religion.
---lee1538 on 2/13/12


Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law,
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law,

So we know that the idea of people not having or knowing the law of God does not apply to those who in Genesis are called by the name of God

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at, but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

And God overlooked many things because people were ignorant of Gods law. Again in the bible this refers to Genties
---francis on 2/13/12


Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

We know that Abraham had the laws and commandments of God before Moses was born and that he obeyed them

2 Peter 2:8 For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds

We know that the people in Sodom and its city commited UNLAWFUL deeds.

So we can be sure that they knew the Law, Sinned and that their sins were imputed to them, and they were judged.

What the text and the bible tells us is that not every nation knew the law of God. And in those cases God " winked" / did not credit ( IMPUTE) them with sin
---francis on 2/12/12


Ro 5:12-13 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

Poor spiritually blind Adventists try so hard to limit the definition of sin to a violation of the law. But they simply ignore that scripture that says otherwise.

As I stated before, I could kick the daylights out of Francis and not violate any of the 10 commandments. But would I sin? yes, since sin is also a refusal to love others.
---lee1538 on 2/12/12


sin was in the world but that sin was not imputed without the law and that was not given until Moses' time.
---JackB on 2/12/12
I think that you have missinterpreted this to mean that the law was not given to until Moses.

So let me first show that the law was given before Moses:Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, andMY LAWS.

Here are biblical examples of peple without the law
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at, but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law,..

This refers to nation who did not have the law of God not to any one of Abraham KIN
---francis on 2/12/12


---JackB on 2/12/12
I think it says that sin has been in the world even before the law was given at Sinai. But that sin was not imputed or counted against people who did not have the law. But from the genesis accounts we can see that sin was counted against many people. Which means that they had the law

Genesis 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes..making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly, And delivered just Lot,..For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their UNLAWFUL deeds,
---francis on 2/12/12


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I would say that based on the text in Romans and Genesis that SIN was around during Cains time, That means that the Law was also around that sin would be imputed, that would be before Moses
---francis on 2/11/12


Then you dont believe what the scripture says. It says flat out that sin was in the world but that sin was not imputed without the law and that was not given until Moses' time.
---JackB on 2/12/12


Here is the other fact about law and sin.

Sin did not start with Adam, it started with Lucifer in heaven

So there must have been laws in heaven which lucifer violated
---francis on 2/11/12


Francis //If we say that Adams sinned, then surely there must have been a law in Adams days so that SIN could have been imputed
---
Moral law was inherent in man reflecting the image of God Himself.

We see that same thing in Scripture which states that the Gentiles observed the law but yet did not have the law.

Romans 2:14-15 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
---lee1538 on 2/11/12


Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

If we say that Adams sinned, then surely there must have been a law in Adams days so that SIN could have been imputed
---francis on 2/11/12


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Romans 5:13,14
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
---JackB on 2/11/12
Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, SIN lieth at the door.

I would say that based on the text in Romans and Genesis that SIN was around during Cains time, That means that the Law was also around that sin would be imputed, that would be before Moses
---francis on 2/11/12


Romans 5:13,14

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

The verse also blews to pieces the Adventist argument that Abraham possessed the law since they quote Genesis 26:5 "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Obviously Adventist knowledge of the Bible and its history is really at the low end of the spectrum since every time they see the word commandments they think it has to be the 10 commandments.
---lee1538 on 2/11/12


To directly answer this question: Christianity was doing very well and flourishing. The jerusalem council was not called to determine if christainity should be an extension of judism- christians were all using the same writings as the rest of the jews, had all Jewish apostles, and worshiped a Jewish Jesus, is was the locigical conclusion of faith in Jesus, and not a revolt or seperation from the law and the prophets.

The Jerusalem council was to deal with a false teaching, not taught by any of the aposltes to Jew or Gentile.
No one, not Jew or gentile converte was required to be circumcised after the death of Jesus.
False teachers in an effort to get favour from the Jewish leaders taught non jewish converts to be circumcised
---francis on 2/11/12


Romans 5:13,14

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Now thats 2 places in scripture that declare the law wasnt given until Moses.

God sent the "unclean" and "clean" animals to Noah to be kept alive. (Gen 6:20)
---JackB on 2/11/12


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1: Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God
2: Genesis 35:2 Put away the strange gods
3: Genesis 4:26 then began men to call upon the name of the LORD
4:Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day,
5: Genesis 9:24 And Noah awoke and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
6:Genesis 4:10 What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
7: Genesis 39:9 how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God? ( ADULTERY)
8: Genesis 44:8 how then should we steal out of thy lord's house silver or gold?
9:Genesis 3:4 Ye shall not surely die:
10:Genesis 3:5 ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.( COVETING)


all 10 in genesis before Moses was born
---francis on 2/11/12


What I am suggesting is that the law was not given prior to the time of Moses.

Galatians 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years...
---lee1538 on 2/10/12
Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Genesis 39:9 how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God
Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that [are] not clean by two, the male and his female.

There were All ten commandments. tithe, sexual and dietary laws existed before Moses.

it was THE SANCTUARY LAWS and the LEVITIUS PRIESTHOOD that came 430 years later
---francis on 2/10/12


//I NEED YOU TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION FOR ME:

Are you suggesting that God did not say these words to Noah:
---
What I am suggesting is that the law was not given prior to the time of Moses.

Galatians 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward (after Abraham), does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.

Sorry guy but one cannot observe any law prior to the time it is given.

While the patriarchs may not have used hogs for sacrifice, there is no indication that there was any restrictions being given until the time of Moses.

All Adventists have is speculation designed to support their works- oriented soteriology.
---lee1538 on 2/10/12


lee1538:

You said: The a concept of ritually clean and unclean animals did not exist until the time of Moses and was one of the means of keeping the nation of Israel separate from other nations.

If that was so, why did Noah take two of each animal on the Ark, but SEVEN of each of the clean animals?
---StrongAxe on 2/10/12


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The a concept of ritually clean and unclean animals did not exist until the time of Moses and was one of the means of keeping the nation of Israel separate from other nations.
---lee1538 on 2/10/12

I NEED YOU TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION FOR ME:

Are you suggesting that God did not say these words to Noah:
Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that [are] not clean by two, the male and his female.

Genesis 7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female, to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
---francis on 2/10/12


francis - Mark 7:18-19 And he said to them, Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled? (Thus he declared all foods clean.)

Would you want to beleive that if Ellen White lived during the time of Jesus, she would have straighten Him out on this issue that we sin sin sin if we eat certain foods? After all, is not a trespass of the law a sin?
---lee1538 on 2/10/12


The a concept of ritually clean and unclean animals did not exist until the time of Moses and was one of the means of keeping the nation of Israel separate from other nations.

However, your contention that such laws that are strictly Jewish in nature are applicable to the church today is totally wrong. Such views are truly a heresy we call neo-galatians - a heresy that tried to bring the Christian away from grace and back unto the law for his walk and eternal salvation.

Suggest that you find a church that preaches the truth and follows Jesus, not Ellen White.
---lee1538 on 2/10/12


Anybody with a knowledge of scripture will tell you that the Genesis story is from the viewpoint of Moses who instituted the dietary laws.
---lee1538 on 2/9/12

QUESTION: You measn God did not say this to Noah at all: Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that [are] not clean by two, the male and his female.

Genesis 7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female, to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

Moses made it up?
---francis on 2/10/12


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Francis //You mean after God told Noah that some animals were unclean, God then advised Noah to eat that which was unclean?

Anybody with a knowledge of scripture will tell you that the Genesis story is from the viewpoint of Moses who instituted the dietary laws.

Of course, Adventists have a problem with Jesus when he said that whatever one eats does not defile one, but whatever comes from the heart.

Adventists simply refuse to acknowledge that the New Covenant is unlike the one God made with Israel when they left Egypt by insisting laws/commands given ONLY to the nation of Israel also applies to Christians.
---lee1538 on 2/9/12


(from a previous blog)
But if an alternative is not given such as the offer of salvation, can free will really have a choice. If you answered NO, you got the right answer.
---lee1538 on 2/8/12


Agreed! I guess its a good thing that Christ died for all men and draws all men to himself (just as scripture says), giving all men the opportunity to be saved. Otherwise yes, I agree. We would all be blind without the Holy Spirit revealing Christ to us and no "free will" as you described it would matter. But some men do resist that calling and reject the love of the truth that would have saved them.
---JackB on 2/9/12


What God created for food was everything that is edible.

Genesis 9:3-4 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.
---lee1538 on 2/9/12

Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that [are] not clean by two, the male and his female.

Genesis 7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female, to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

You mean after God told Noah that some animals were unclean, God then advised Noah to eat that which was unclean?

Did you ever wonder why only TWO of the unclean were in the Ark, while seven of the clean?
---francis on 2/9/12


Francis you still do not have it correct.

What God created for food was everything that is edible.

Genesis 9:3-4 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.


The only restriction was the eating of blood.

(9:4) But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.

The Levitical food laws did not exist until the time of Moses and that as a means to keep the Jewish people separate from others.

There is no food law restrictions on Christians and that is all to easy to see both from scripture and what was taught in the early church.

So only the Adventists have this monkey on their backs.
---lee1538 on 2/9/12


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Your interpretation has virtually no support in the rest of NT scripture,
---lee1538 on 2/9/12
1 Timothy 4:3 Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the WORD OF GOD and prayer.

In this letter from Paul to timothy. the only meats to be eaten were those created by God for food. ANd those meats are SANCTIFIED BY THE WORD OF GOD.

the phrase " word of God" here referrs only to the OT passages where God spoke of cleanand uncelan meats.
---francis on 2/9/12


Francis//So how then do we claim that the dietary laws
were never given to gentiles?
---
As stated before, Gentiles were encouraged to respect Jewish laws in order to have fellowship with Jewish believers as many in the early church continued in the Jewish religion by circumcision, dietary laws, sabbath observance, going to the temple, etc. see Acts 15:5

If Judaism were imposed onto the Gentile church, then why do we see by 135 AD the majority of the church no longer observed the Sabbath as well as other Jewish laws?

The only way that could have been would be if the Apostles & their immediate successors did not require it of Gentiles.

Your interpretation is wrong!
---lee1538 on 2/9/12


Francis //Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled (DIETARY LAW Deuteronomy 14:21), and [from] blood ( DIETARY LAW Leviticus 17:12 ).

Your interpretation has virtually no support in the rest of NT scripture, nor in early church history, nor of any theologian today.

What you have is a forced interpretation based upon your denominations view that the early church became corrupt with the Apostles and their immediate successors.

//Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

To have fellowship with Jewish Christian, personal convictions had to be respected.
---lee1538 on 2/9/12


lets look at this closer and deal with this HEAD ON!

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled , and [from] blood

from things strangled ( DIETARY LAW Deuteronomy 14:21), and from blood ( DIETARY LAW Leviticus 17:12 ).

Things strangled and blood are taken strait out of the dietary laws and given to the gentles. So how then do we claim that the dietary laws
were never given to gentiles?
---francis on 2/9/12


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EVERYONE with the spirit of God can see THE DIETARY LAWS and THE SABBATH being given to all gentile converts

the fact that you refuse to see it says something about you

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled ( DIETARY LAW Deuteronomy 14:21), and [from] blood ( DIETARY LAW Leviticus 17:12 ).

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Do you really believe that telling converted gentiles that the word of God is preached in EVERY CITY EVERY SABBATH is not an encouragement / command for them to keep the sabbath?
---francis on 2/8/12


---lee1538 on 2/8/12
Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled ( DIETARY LAW Deuteronomy 14:21), and [from] blood ( DIETARY LAW Leviticus 17:12 ).
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every SABBATH day.

Do you really believe that telling converted gentiles that the word of God is preached in EVERY CITY EVERY SABBATH day would discourage or encourage them with keeping sabbath?

Acts 13:42 the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
---francis on 2/8/12


Francis //ONLY CIRCUMCISION was under consideration Council of Jerusalem. Do you know why circumcision only?

You simply do not know that circumcision was the entry rite into the Jewish religion. If you were to undergo circumcision you would be obligated to observe ALL the laws of Judaism.

The issue was really whether Gentile believers had to convert to Judaism to be legit.

Acts 15:5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them AND to order them to keep the law of Moses.

No knowledgeable biblical scholar or church historian will agree with you. You simply twist the scripture to promote your Neo-Galatian heresy.
---lee1538 on 2/8/12


ONLY CIRCUMCISION was under consideration Council of Jerusalem. Do you know why circumcision only?

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled ( DIETARY LAW Deuteronomy 14:21), and [from] blood ( DIETARY LAW Leviticus 17:12 ).
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Do you really believe that telling converted gentiles that the word of God is preached in EVERY CITY EVERY SABBATH day would discourage or encourage them with keeping sabbath?
---francis on 2/8/12


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If one were to pour oil in the gas tank of your car, the engine would start to gum up a few miles down the road.

And that is what would have happened to the Christian faith if it had simply become another sect of Judaism, it would have simply gummed up and stopped.

But the early christians recognized the decisions of the Jerusalem council that did not mandate laws that were strictly Jewish to Gentile believers.
---lee1538 on 2/7/12


// God had NEVER had to change any of his laws to accomodate anyone, not jew or gentile.

You mean Gentile believers still needed to be circumcised and that the laws regarding the priesthood did not change?

//the same laws that appluied to jewish believers also applied to non-jewish believers. They were ONE FOLD

Yes, as I stated before, you as well as other Adventists truly believe the Apostles and their followers erred when they declared Gentile believers did not need be circumcised and observe Jewish laws. Acts 15

You should read the Bible and find a church that teaches it instead of wasting your time in a cult. Maybe only then you will come into the truth and come to know the Truth.
---lee1538 on 1/29/12


John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

When God brought the sheep of other fold along side his fold, he did not give them different shepherd. They were all ONE FOLD, fed from the same pasture, by the same shepherd.

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

So God had NEVER had to change any of his laws to accomodate anyone, not jew or gentile.

the same laws that appluied to jewish believers also applied to non-jewish believers. They were ONE FOLD

If there were different laws for jews and non jews, then God would be a "respector of persons."
---francis on 1/28/12


//Everyone who had any interest in hearing the word of God gathered every sabbath at temples or synagogues, houses or a set location to hear the word of God.

And THEN what happened?

Acts 15:5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses."

So the Apostles & others gathered at Jerusalem to decide what Gentile believers had to do in order to be legitimate.

We can easily see Gentile believers did not have to become circumcised & convert to Judaism, observe strictly Jewish laws such as the Jewish Sabbath, dietary laws, etc.

The church was becoming a separate entity apart from Judaism.
---lee1538 on 1/28/12


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Acts 11:26 And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Before they were called christians, among Jews and some Romans, the followers of christ were considered just another sect of judaism.

The disciples and other converted jews and proselytes used the same temple for worship as did the unconverted jews.

The The God fearing Gentiles would gather at the same synagogues with the unconverted Jews, as well as the converted jews and proselytes.

They had ONE source of scripture, what we call the OT

Everyone who had any interest in hearing the word of God gathered every sabbath at temples or synagogues, houses or a set location to hear the word of God.

Acts 13:42-44, Acts 15:21, Acts 16:13
---francis on 1/28/12


//Jesus and the disciples taught the gospel and the plan of redeemption from the OT.

And they taught that Jesus being the Messiah, or Promised One, that He was a originator of a better covenant than the Old Covenant God made with them at Mt. Sinai.

In fact, those that adhere to the Old Covenant continue to have a veil over their hearts

2 Corinthians 3:15-16 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.

Francis, do you suppose the problem with the Adventists is that the veil has yet to be removed from their hearts as their guiding light is Moses rather than the Christ of the New covenant?
---lee1538 on 1/28/12


1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Barnes notes: An holy nation. This is also taken from Exodus 19:6. The Hebrews were regarded as a nation consecrated to God, and now that they were east off or rejected for their disobedience, the same language was properly applied to the people whom God had chosen in their place -the Christian church.

Sorry Francis, but I rather doubt anyone here beleives that believers upon becoming Christians also become Jews and thus have to obey OT laws that are strictly Jewish in nature.
---lee1538 on 1/28/12


Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into [his] lodging, to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and [out of] the prophets, from morning till evening.

Jesus and the disciples taught the gospel and the plan of redeemption from the OT

NT writers used the phrase " it is written " to show that what they were writing was not new, but rather taken from the OT and expounded upon
---francis on 1/28/12


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Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people, that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

the same words that God used to describe the nation of Israel, are the exact same words which Peter calls upon to edify the church.

This tells me then that the belivers in Jesus the christ are Indeed israel.

Paul says: Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
---francis on 1/28/12


//No new nation is founded, believing gentiles become citzens of COMMONWEALTH of israel
---
Romans 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.

While all believers have the same Lord, believers in Christ are under the New Covenant, a covenant of grace not law.

The issue as to whether Gentile believers in Christ had to convert to Judaism to be legitimate was settled at the Jerusalem council Acts 15.

(15:24)KJV Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law" -to whom we gave no such commandment-
---lee1538 on 1/28/12


Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us],

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God,

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone,

Again we see that the church is a union of believing jews and believing gentles who have now become " FELLOWCITIZENS" build upon the teachings of the apostles and OT prophects.

No new nation is founded, believing gentiles become citzens of COMMONWEALTH of israel
---francis on 1/28/12


//So here is one image of the church. There are only TWO TREES, the wild olive ( UNBELIVERS) and the good olive( BELIEVERS).

The wild olive branches are the Gentile believers as evidenced by the context.

While the early church recognized the Old Testament scriptures, they also recognized that with Jesus there was a New Covenant being made, a covenant that was UNLIKE the one He made with the Israelite nation when they left Egypt.

And when the Apostles wrote letters, these letters were readily recognized as Scripture. One point is that laws that was distinctly Jewish such as circumcision, the Sabbaths, or Levitical dietary laws were not forced onto the church, that much was settled at the Jerusalem council Acts 15.
---lee1538 on 1/28/12


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Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

So here is one image of the church. There are only TWO TREES, the wild olive ( UNBELIVERS) and the good olive( BELIEVERS).

God does not plant a new tree, he grafts believers into an already existing tree, from which he has sut off the unbelievers.

The Good olive tree is that JEWISH tree from which unbelieving jews were cut off. The church has at it's foundation Jewish beliefs LAW AND PROPHETS / ROOT AND FATNESS
---francis on 1/28/12


Because there was no such thing as NT when Paul and Luke wrote these letters, The phrase " WORD OF GOD" " ALL SCRIPTURE" and " THE SCRIPTURES" can only refer to what was in the OT. Which tells us that the CHURCH IS following very closely a " TRUE JEWISH THEOLOGY!!"

Not only that, but the new covenant was made with JUDAH and ISRAEL ( JEWS)
Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

So everyone, greek or Jew who is part fo the new covenant not only relies on " JEWISH SCRIPTURES" for doctrine, but has accepted a JEWISH COVENANT
---francis on 1/27/12


The fact all scripture is God inspired does NOT mean all OT laws found are applicable to the church.

Acts 15:20-21 are addressed to the Gentile believers to facilitate harmonious relationships with Jewish believers who continued in the Mosaic traditions.

Adventists pitch the Jewish Sabbath since the early Jewish church observed the Sabbath, but they fail to point any command in the New Covenant that the church need observe any day as holy.

And they abhor early church history as it is too easy to see that by 135 AD, the Sabbath was no longer observed except in a few selected communities. That could have happened only if the Apostles and their immediate successors did not teach these distinctly Jewish laws.
---lee1538 on 1/27/12


2 Timothy 3:16 ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

1 Timothy 4:5 For it is sanctified by the WORD OF GOD and prayer.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched THE SCRIPTURES daily, whether those things were so.

Because there was no such thing as NT when Paul and Luke wrote these letters, The phrase " WORD OF GOD" " ALL SCRIPTURE" and " THE SCRIPTURES" can only refer to what was in the OT. Which tells us that the CHURCH IS following very closely a " TRUE JEWISH THEOLOGY!!"
---francis on 1/27/12


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Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled ( DIETARY LAW Deuteronomy 14:21), and from blood ( DIETARY LAW Leviticus 17:12 ).
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day ( SABBATH GIVEN TO CONVERTED GENTILES / THE CHURCH).

From this council comes a mandate to obey the dietary laws both meats strangled and eating blood are taken directly from the dietary laws ( TEXT PROVIDED)

And who really beleives that telling converted gentiles that the word of God is preached EVERY SABBATH DAY in EVERY CITY actually discourages them from keeping the sabbath?

---francis on 1/26/12


//...The problem we have today is there those like the Judaizers of Paul's time who insist that some Old Testament laws are applicable to the church while they are not. Things like circumcision, dietary laws, national festivals and Sabbath.
---lee1538 on 1/26/12

great post, again, but i would add water baptism to that list.
---aka on 1/26/12


John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another, as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
This is our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, talking. I think He should know if it is new or not, but some will still rebut this just to be right.
1 John 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
1 John 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
Even John can distinguish and old commandment from a new.
---micha9344 on 1/26/12


The Old Testament lays the foundation for the teachings and events found in the New Testament. The Bible is a progressive revelation. If you skip the first half of any good book and try to finish it, you will have a hard time understanding the characters, the plot, and the ending. In the same way, the New Testament is only completely understood when it is seen as a fulfillment of the events, characters, laws, sacrificial system, covenants, and promises of the Old Testament.

The problem we have today is there those like the Judaizers of Paul's time who insist that some Old Testament laws are applicable to the church while they are not. Things like circumcision, dietary laws, national festivals and Sabbath.
---lee1538 on 1/26/12


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except for parts of revelation show me ONE thing in the NT not taken from the OLD or not prophecied in the OLD
---francis on 1/25/12

very true but even revelation has most of its roots in the OT mostly Daniel. The entire OT is about Jesus just different characters play paritial roles. Examples David youngest son a shepard. Jesus is the great shepard. manna from heaven Jesus is the Bread of life. In Rev. many of the visions and views of heaven are the same or similiar depending on language and personal writing characteristics.
---Scott1 on 1/26/12


//Gal 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word:
"You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

If this is true, then the laws which speak of what day we need observe or what food we may or may not eat would not be applicable.

And that has to be a thorn in the side of Adventists religious philosophy. Of course, Adventists do whatever they can to ignore what Galatians teaches perferring instead to accept the 'divine rantings' as uttered by Ellen White.
---lee1538 on 1/26/12


//a believer in Christ does not have to convert to Judaism to be legitimate.// ---lee1538 on 1/25/12

i agree with great zeal.

or any form thereof aka Judaizing. e.g.

Gal 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word:

"You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

if you do this to perfection in Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit (which is the fruit of the HS), you will automatically be doing the Law.
---aka on 1/26/12


Francis stated John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
---
A more accurate and informative translation would be -

(John 4:22 HCSB)You Samaritans worship what you do not know, we worship what we do know, for salvation is FROM the Jews.

Sorry Francis but a believer in Christ does not have to convert to Judaism to be legitimate.
---lee1538 on 1/25/12


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except for parts of revelation show me ONE thing in the NT not taken from the OLD or not prophecied in the OLD
---francis on 1/25/12


John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. ---francis on 1/25/12

ek, ex

preposition that denotes origin and not possession. e.g.

that young man is of aka but that young man does not belong to him.

that satchel belongs to aka but does not originate from him.
---aka on 1/25/12


John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
---francis on 1/25/12


Est 4:14 For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, [then] shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place, but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for [such] a time as this?
Acts 5:38-39 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it, lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
2 Timothy 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
---micha9344 on 1/25/12


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2 options
1)It would have been awesome. The council would not have been needed. The council was started to put down the Judiaziers. The jews would have become Christ followers and Christian ideals would have spread across the world in majority.
2) God's plan would have failed because in OT prophets it talks about making Jews jealous of Gentiles because they have access to God.
---Scott1 on 1/25/12


Christianity is not an extension of Judaism but the final fulfillment of God's covenant of grace, "Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore." Ezekiel 37:26,27

It was pointing to Jesus Christ (the Head) and His church (His body) who's now known as Christians.
---christan on 1/25/12


I would say that Christianity never has been just an extension of Jewish religion, even before the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15). Only certain individuals were involved in promoting Jewish religion as being necessary for salvation. So, if . . . in theory . . . there had been no Council of Jerusalem, the sheep who hear our Shepherd's voice (John 10:1-5) would not have been fooled. And when Peter and others fooled themselves like in Galatians 2:11-13, God used Paul to correct them and rescue the situation. So, one way or another, God succeeds (c: Isaiah 55:10-11.
---Bill_willa6989 on 1/25/12


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