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Before And After The Cross

Are we justified in distinguishing between what Jesus commanded prior to the Cross and that commanded after the Cross.

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 ---lee1538 on 1/25/12
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---Haz27 on 2/2/12
1 John 3:4 for sin is the transgression of the law.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth transgression of the law is of the devil,

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit transgression of the law,

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, and the FAITH OF JESUS.

You will not find a christian living in adultery, stealing, dishourning his parents, taking Gods name in vain..(all ten commandments). This is not the LIFESTYLE of a christian.

Do those who are saved by grace fall short occasioally? YES
Proverbs 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.
---francis on 2/3/12


Francis: You did misunderstand me. Christians do NOT have to keep the law. I was merely stating that is what the law requires of those UNDER it's jurisdiction. See James2:10-11 to find what law it refers to.

Scriptures (Gal 5:18, Rom 6:14, 1Tim 1:9, Rom 8:2) CLEARLY shows Christians are NOT under the jurisdiction of the law. And where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION (SIN) Rom 4:15.
Christians CANT be accused/judged of sin.
And yet the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us Rom 8:4.

Christians don't have a licence to do wrong though. We keep His commandments 1John3:23 Believe on Jesus, love one another. And love worketh no ill to his neighbour Rom 13:10. And should we fail God disciplines.
---Haz27 on 2/3/12


Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
---jerry6593 on 2/3/12


Warwick you asked: Can we ignore 10 commandments?

They are part of the law of sin and death so yes we ignore them in terms of NOT JUDGING salvation (or proof of it) by them. We're not under the law and where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION (SIN). Praise God that by the obedience of Christ we are made righteous Rom 5,19.

Grace is not a licence to do wrong though. And God disciplines us when we do. So don't worry that Christians doing wrong might profit by it.

All Christians fail to live a perfect life. Yes God forgives us, just as He did the CRIMINAL on the cross. And we love one another and also forgive 7x70.




---Haz27 on 2/3/12


Haz, we are not under Law and "the righteousness of this law is fulfilled in us because of Christ." I accept this and have said so many times.

The 10 Commandments were never given to save. However Jesus says the whole Law and Prophets (inc. 10 C's) are summed up in loving and obeying God and loving our fellow man. This covers the spirit of all 10 Commandments! So can we live outside them?

I have met Christians who think their forgiveness 'certificate' means they are forgiven, always forgiven and will no longer be judged, so can lie, cheat and steal and commit adultery because they are washed clean and nothing will make them dirty again.

Are they correct, can we ignore the 10 Commandments?
---Warwick on 2/3/12




The law of sin and death is the 10 commandments which results in death penalty for transgression. This law must be kept perfectly ---Haz27 on 2/2/12

If I understand you corerectly ( and correct me if i do not ) One who is born again, saved by grace, must continue to keep the ten commandments.

Did I understand you corrrectly?
---francis on 2/2/12


Warwick: It seems we both share the same frustration with each other as I have always found you have evaded a direct answer.
But thats because of different definitions of law we each use.

I will explain my position again for both you and Francis. The law of sin and death is the 10 commandments which results in death penalty for transgression. This law must be kept perfectly (James2:10).
But see previous posts how Christians are NOT under this law, yet the righteousness of this law is fulfilled in us because of Christ. Do you accept this?

Both you and Francis however believe failure to obey 10 commandments shows a person is unsaved. And both of you have no scriptural support for your grace +10commandments gospel.
---Haz27 on 2/2/12


Haz27, I am not sure what you mean by "LAW."
Are you tell me that you do not keep any of these commandments because you are under grace and not law?

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image..Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain, Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother:
Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness.
Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet
---francis on 2/2/12


Haz you evaded the point, and didn't answer my question.

Francis was talking about the 10 Commandments-let us stick to the point. Being saved by His grace, through no goodness of our own, inate or earned, should we live contrary to these Commandments? Yes or no?

I am not confident of a straight answer as I have asked you this same question in many different ways, many times before. You have always evaded a direct answer.

BTW being a nonAdventist who has preached in c40 Adventist churches I asked many Pastors this question: Will I lose my salvation by not honouring the Saturday Sabbath? Not one said yes.

I have met some Adventists with strange views but I am sure you agree you find such people in all denominations.
---Warwick on 2/2/12


Francis: I keep his commandments. Believe on Jesus, love one another 1John3:23. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour Rom 13:10
And should we fail, mercy, forgiveness is offered (not death as under the law SDAs are under)

BUT:
Christians are not under the law (SDAs are still under), but under grace (Rom 6:14)

Christ is the END of the law (SDAs are still under) for righteousness to everyone that believes. Rom 10:4

The law of Spirit of life in Christ Jesus SETS FREE from law of sin and death (that SDAs are still under) Rom 8:2

And if SDAs continue to sin wilfully (remain under the law and fail to keep it perfectly James2:10) after having knowledge of the truth, there's no more sacrifice for sins" Heb 10:26
---Haz27 on 2/2/12




Warwick: The law of sin and death is NOT the same as love one another.

Remember the law the SDAs are under says you're sinning wilfully/unsaved because you observe Sunday Sabbath.

The law of sin and death means death if you transgress it (sin) in just ONE point James 2:10.

But God is love and asks us to believe on Jesus and love one another (1John3:23). Love includes forgive 7x70. And love disciplines (King David's adultery/murder an example) instead of death penalty.

I suggest preach the gospel. Don't judge other Christians failings. God loves them and will discipline them Himself.
We should not be judging others as unsaved because they don't measure up to our lifestyle standards. That's not the gospel.
---Haz27 on 2/2/12


Haz, you keep on about being "under" the Law when we are not "under" the Law. Jesus says the whole Law and the Prophets are summed up in firstly loving God, and secondly loving our fellow man. Now without being "under" the Law in any way if we truly love God and our fellow man will we murder, lie,cheat, steal, commit adultery etc? Of course we won't because we know that is evil in God's eyes, only because He has told us, and placed it in our hearts. Same Law.

If we have been saved by His grace will we not endeavour to live His way. Will we do unto others as we would have them do unto us?

You seem to think that by living the way He would have us live means we are "under" Law. Not so.
---Warwick on 2/2/12


Haz27, help me to understand you better. Are you tell me that you do not keep any of these commandments because you are under grace and not law?

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image..Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain, Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother:
Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness.
Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet
---francis on 2/2/12


Lee, you defamed the SDA. Are you prepared to show from their literature that you are correct? Or do you accept you made a false accusation? Show where you are right or be man enough to apologize to them.

As regards the law my comments regarding Francis were about the Commandments he listed. Stick to the point and don't try, as usual, to muddy the waters. If you have no sensible argument keep quiet.
---Warwick on 2/2/12


Francis, you asked "Should" a Christian "obey the ten commandments?"
ANSWER: Christians are NOT under the law (1Tim 1:9, Rom 6:14, Rom 8:2). Yet righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us, Rom 8:3,4.

It is NOT part of salvation that Christians "SHOULD" obey the 10 commandments.
Yet we keep His commandments 1John3:23, BELIEVE on Jesus, LOVE one another.

But SDAs make themselves transgressors/sinners (Gal 2:18, 1John3:4, Rom 3:19). And if they continue to sin (remain under law and thereby make yourself a transgressor) wilfully, after having the knowledge of the truth (Christ), there remains no more sacrifice for sin (Heb10:26).
SDAs are similar to the foolish Galatians.



---Haz27 on 2/2/12


Do not forget love the lord thy God with all your heart. When Paul and Jesus says love thy neighbour, they only list commandments in the law that relates to our neighbour. Remember the 1st 4 commandments relate to God alone - francis

francis, do you realize what you are saying?

you are saying that Paul and even Jesus purposely omitted God's law by picking and choosing by saying the WHOLE law.

now, i understand now how the SDAs do it. you say that even jesus edited God's law.
---aka on 2/2/12


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Francis. I'll explain grace v's law in another way.

Sin is trangression of the law. And whatever the law says it says to those UNDER IT (Rom 3:19). SDAs place themselves here.

BUT, Christians are NOT under law (Gal 5:18, Rom 6:14, 1Tim 1:9). So they CANNOT be accused/judged of transgressing it (sin). Where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION/SIN (Rom 4:15).

SDAs however are under the law. This makes them a transgressor/sinner (Gal 2:18). This transgression/sin makes SDA's servants of sin (John8:34), of the devil (1John3:8).
Heb 10:26 warns not to continue to sin wilfully (remain under the law and transgress it as described Gal 2:18, James2:10), after having the knowledge of the truth (Christ).


---Haz27 on 2/2/12


---Haz27 on 2/1/12
let me just ask a simple question to understand you better: Should a person who is saved by grace obey the ten commandments?


---lee1538 on 2/1/12
The sabbath has nothing to do with your neighbour, your neighbour did not create the world in six days, neither does worshiping one God, nor taking God's name in vain, These have to do with our moral obligation to, and our love for God

He says that if you love your neighbor, you will be fulfilling the whole law.
---aka on 2/1/12
Do not forget love the lord thy God with all your heart. When Paul and Jesus says love thy neighbour, they only list commandments in the law that relates to our neighbour. Remember the 1st 4 commandments relate to God alone
---francis on 2/1/12


Francis: SDAs sin and that means they are of the devil, 1John3:8 (SDA doctrine).
"Whoever commits sin IS A SERVANT OF SIN"John8:34.

But under grace we're FREE from sin (John 8:36, Rom 6:18). We're servants of RIGHTEOUSNESS (1John 3:7).

BUT SDA's follow law and thereby make themselves transgressors (Gal 2:18, 1John3:4).

But those under grace are NOT UNDER law (1Tim 1:9, Rom 6:14, Rom 8:2). And what the law says it says only to those UNDER IT (Rom3:19).

Christians are righteous in Christ and NOT UNDER law. And where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION (SIN) Rom 4:15.

As SDAs sin (transgress the law),that means they are UNDER law which is contrary to a believer's position in Christ.
---Haz27 on 2/1/12


francis//Those who do not keep the law are of THE DEVIL
Whosoever is born of God does not trangress the law
---
so you are confessing that since you do not keep the law, you are really of the devil.

But fear not, if you become born of God's Spirit, you will learn to love others and thus fulfill the law.

Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, not kill, not steal, not bear false witness,not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself... love is the fulfilling of the law.


If you were to ask what has the Jewish sabbath to do with love of neighbor, you got the right answer if you answered NOTHING.
---lee1538 on 2/1/12


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//Does Paul anywhere tell us that those who are saved by grace?//

no. he says that if you love your neighbor, you will be fulfilling the whole law.

it only stands to reason and to spirit. if you do this one, you are automatically doing the ten.
---aka on 2/1/12


---Haz27 on 2/1/12

SEE IT IN THE BIBLE: PROOF THAT KEEPINGTHE COMMANDMENTS IS SIGN OF SALVATION IN CHRIST

1 John 3:8 He that TRANGRESSES THE LAW is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not TRANGRESS THE LAW, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother

Those who do not keep the law are of THE DEVIL
Whosoever is born of God does not trangress the law
---francis on 2/1/12


Galatians 3:22 But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by the faith of Jesus Christ should be given to them that believe.

And once the believer has come to faith, there is no longer any obligation to or condemnation from the law, however, the law merely gives us guidance as to what our behavior should be.

Galatians 3:24-25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

You will never ever heard a sermon on this in an Advnetist church since they believe one has an obligation to observe the law in order to merit salvation.
---lee1538 on 2/1/12


Mark, I'm being ironic. I know full well that God will save you and me and Atheist and Eloy and Warwick and everyone else around here in His own good time. What I don't understand now, I'll understand later. Oh, I forgot Francis. :)
---John.usa on 2/1/12


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// Though we are definitely saved ONLY by the grace of God via Jesus death and resurrection we cannot break these laws.

Warwick, which laws? Do you light a fire in your home on the Sabbath and thus break the law?

Exodus 35:3 You shall kindle no fire in all your dwelling places on the Sabbath day.

Never could figure why Adventists say they may limit themselves only to the 10 commandments when guys like Francis say we sin by what we eat.

We are never justified by the law, nor does the law make us righteous.

Adventists truly hate the concept that the righteous live by faith, but that is what scripture teaches.

Romans 1:17, Gal. 3:11
---lee1538 on 2/1/12


Francis, your resorting to foolish personal attacks again. Whilst that usually is not your style, lately it has been.

As for your question regarding commandment keeping and grace, it's the SDA doctrine claiming commandment keeping is proof of salvation that is wrong.
BUT, if you try keeping the law recognizing it plays NO PART in salvation then your under grace.

By the way, we do keep his commandments (BELIEVE on Jesus, LOVE one another 1John3:23).
And, Gal 5:14 which aka quoted: "For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Note verse 15: "if you bite and devour one another". This speaks of judging by works of law (SDA doctrine).



---Haz27 on 2/1/12


Warwick. Regarding your question, pastor in adultery, I see similar often.

Judging under law we see Mark 10:11,12 adultery is when you divorce your partner and marry another. BUT, the great majority of pastors marry such people even though it's adultery.

Likewise under law Sabbath is Saturday and has strict requirements for observance. Yet SDA's fail to obey them. And hypocritically, they even teach the likes of you are wilfully sinning/ unsaved because you observe Sunday Sabbath.

Fact is none of us are able to perfectly keep the law. Thank God for grace. Grace is not a licence to get away with wrong though. God disicplines. King David's adultery/murder an example.

BUT to mix grace with law is being lukewarm.
---Haz27 on 2/1/12


Understanding the relationship between grace and sin is very important

All have sinned ( disobeyed the law) and thus deserve death.

But God by His grace has granted us life where we deserve death for our sins.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Or are we just content to do as we please and say we have not sinned?
---francis on 2/1/12


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While the Pharisees of Christ's day observed the law as much as was possible to do so, they did not merit anything with Christ.

One may attempt to obey the law but will not be justified unless they obey ALL the law ALL the time.

But the righteouness that is ours is that in Christ that is accredited to our account.

We cannot save ourselves as the Adventist seem to claim we can, we need Jesus as our Savior.
---lee1538 on 2/1/12


Haz, Francis is obviously correct on this point. Though we are definitely saved ONLY by the grace of God via Jesus death and resurrection we cannot break these laws. These laws do not save us, and were never intended to save us but what hypoctites we would be to claim we are saved but live willingly in sin. This is what James is talking about, that how we live indicates whether we are indeed saved or not.

A question for you: would you accept it if your pastor was openly committing (ongoing) adultery? If yes why? If no why?
---Warwick on 2/1/12


Pick your side, either Grace OR law. But you CANNOT mix them.
---Haz27 on 2/1/12
Are you saying that those who are under grace
Can worship other gods
Can make idols to worship
Can take God's name in vain
Do not have to keep the sabbath
Do not have to honour father and mother
Can murder
Can commit adultery
They can steal
Can lie
Can covet?

Or are you saying that those who keep all ten commandments cannot receive grace?

Please be VERY clear No more unintellegent answers
---francis on 2/1/12


---aka on 2/1/12
---John.usa on 1/31/
Does Paul anywhere tell us that those who are saved by grace
Can worship other gods
Can make idols to worship
Can take God's name in vain
Do not have to keep the sabbath
Do not have to honour father and mother
Can murder
Can commit adultery
Can steal
Can lie
Can covet
---francis on 2/1/12


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Francis, your correct in saying, "PICK YOUR SIDE".

BUT, it's either Grace OR Law.

Legalists chose law.
But note Phil 3:6-9 that regarding the righteousness which is in the law, Paul was blameless YET he counted this DUNG. He rejected his OWN righteousness, which is of the law, preferring instead the righteousness which is of God by faith.

Christians are NOT UNDER the law (Rom 6:14, Rom 8:2, 1Tim 1:9). Remember whatever law says it says to those UNDER IT (Rom 3:19).

And as we're saved "by grace, then it is no more works, otherwise grace is no more grace" (Rom 11:6).

Pick your side, either Grace OR law. But you CANNOT mix them. This is lukewarm. God will spew you out of His mouth.
---Haz27 on 2/1/12


Johnusa, just because you don't feel the Holy Spirit and have gone to church for 25 years does not mean you were predestined to hell. You are not dead yet. But once you are, and you do not have the love of Christ in your heart, you will then be one of those predestined to hell.
You can say, leave me alone, I don't want to hear any of it, but you already have, you just won't believe it yet, you have no faith. You might have it later. That is why I said there is always Hope before you die. You have no clue, and neither do we, what God is going to do in your life. Only He does. But thanks for been honest on how you feel. Not many would say what you did.
---Mark_V. on 2/1/12


//This is just another blog by LEEJ to tell people that they do not have to keep the ten commandments.//

no, it is not. if it is i suppose Paul was doing the same as he wrote:

Gal 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

"They can worship other gods
They can make idols to worship
They can take God's name in vain
They do not have to keep the sabbath
They do not have to honour father and mother
They can murder
They can commit adultery
They can steal
They can lie
They can covet"

Is that what Paul wrote? Is that really what Leej is saying or...
is that an exaggeration to discredit what is written and what is true?
---aka on 2/1/12


Francis, did Lee say those things? People around here read all sorts of nonsense into what people say.
---John.usa on 1/31/12


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Lee, I've attended the same Baptist church for 25 years and have never had even an inkling that I should really be there, or that I have the Holy Spirit or anything of the like. So that should prove that I am predestined for hell. So just leave me in peace and let me go there if that's what God wants. :)
---John.usa on 1/31/12


I get it. Everyone gets it

This is just another blog by LEEJ to tell people that they do not have to keep the ten commandments.

They can worship other gods
They can make idols to worship
They can take God's name in vain
They do not have to keep the sabbath
They do not have to honour father and mother
They can murder
They can commit adultery
They can steal
They can lie
They can covet

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the LOWEST FORM OF LIFE BY THOSE in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called GREAT BY THOSE in the kingdom of heaven.


PICK YOUR SIDE
---francis on 1/31/12


john.usa - the Christian should have some evidence of the indwelling Holy Spirit such as the conviction of sin or at least the testimony from your own spirit.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

As to the Holy Spirit, is not simply asking sufficient?

Luke 11:13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!

While we base our convictions on faith of God's Word, I would rather doubt that the Lord would leave you in the dark on this issue.
---lee1538 on 1/31/12


Only God knows whether I have the Holy Spirit or not. And if I don't, there's nothing I can do to get it. Otherwise it would be salvation by works, an idea Luther and Calvin debunked when they finally got Christianity right in the 1500s. If God has predestined me to hell, then you must agree it's for the best, and so must I.
---John.usa on 1/31/12


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John.usa//but I and almost everyone else are excluded.

If you do not have the Spirit of God indwelling you, then you are unsaved (Romans 8:9) but bear in mind, God stated He would never turn anyone away that comes to Him. John 6:37

However, there are some that would come to Jesus to benefit their own selfish objectives.
---lee1538 on 1/31/12


Johnusa, so long as you are alive, there is always hope. But once you die, there is no more hope. In fact I just answered someone about that. People are hoping after death. How silly that is. They hope that after death they will all be saved. That is a false hope. Those who rebelled against God hope they will die in hell, there is no hope there either. Nada, zero. The time is now, before it is too late. A person can die any second. God has the time for each one of us and no one escapes that either no matter how healthy a person thinks he is.
---Mark_V. on 1/31/12


Before the cross which was the law. After the cross when Jesus raised went up from the mount, the dispensation of grace.
---Lawrence on 1/31/12


When John wrote, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son," God didn't mean the whole world, but only those few he predestined for salvation before the foundation of the world. Christian and maybe one or two others here are included, but I and almost everyone else are excluded. I have now come to terms with that, and know I have no hope, praise God.
---John.usa on 1/30/12


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"We are SAVED from death penalty not sin By Christs LIFE not death" Rhonda

Do you even know what you are saying? Have you ever asked why was there a death penalty demanded by God Almighty? He's a JUST God and not an unjust God as you imply. Or have you not heard,

"For the wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23, "for He shall save His people from their sins" Matthew 1:21, "For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." 2 Cor 5:21, "The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law." 1 Cor 15:56

From your testimony, I assure you that Christ never died for you.
---christan on 1/29/12


Where Christians disagree with Rhonda is as she believes one must live by the law (especially OT laws), we would believe that the scripture teaches one must live by faith as our righteousness is in Christ, not in ourselves.

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for The righteous shall live by faith.

Those that believe one is justified by the law as does Rhonda, are really unable to see their own sinfulness. James 2:10.
---lee1538 on 1/29/12


Rhonda: "if the Son makes you FREE (from sin), you shall be FREE indeed." John 8:36

Rom 6:7 "he who has died has been FREED from sin"

Rom 6:18 "having been set FREE from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."

Rom 8:2,3 "There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ Jesus,...
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me FREE from the law of sin and death."

1 Tim 1:9 "the law is NOT MADE for a righteous person (Christians), but...for the ungodly and for sinners,..."

Gal 2:18 says if you rebuild the law in your life you make yourself a transgressor (sinner).
Submit to God's righteousness instead Rom 10:3
---Haz27 on 1/29/12


Amen Francis

through Gods Holy Spirit we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us

We are SAVED from death penalty not sin By Christs LIFE not death Rom 5:10. repentance at baptism removes past sins not future and through striving to obey ONLY Christ as high priest can forgive future sins

Apostles taught True Believers life would be a life of overcoming sin NOT ONCE did they ever teach we would "never sin again"
James2:8-12

FALSE ministers teach big lie to just say name of Christ and believe - this concept CONTRADICTS Christ Matt 19:17,25,26

false ministers who use their "justification" methods of anything different in Christs commands is pure reasoning to avoid obeying
---Rhonda on 1/29/12


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Before the cross Jesus stressed the importance of THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS
Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

After the cross Jesus and the apostles stressed the importance of Moses and the prophets

Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into [his] lodging, to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and [out of] the prophets, from morning till evening.
---francis on 1/28/12


FAITH is not different in NT and OT.
---francis on 1/28/12

True.
Hence we see:
Rom 3:28 "a man is justified by faith WITHOUT the deeds of the law"

Gal 3:12 "the law is NOT of faith"

Rom 14:23 "whatsoever is not of faith is sin"
---Haz27 on 1/28/12


In the end: Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines.

When we hear doctrines that attempt to distinguish between before and after the cross, we muct know that they are false.

We can look at the cross as seperating yesterday from today:
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same before the cross, and after the cross, and for ever.

Hebrews 13:9 Be not fooled by doctrines that show a difference before and after the cross.
---francis on 1/28/12


"The saints of the OT looked forward to the coming of Jesus in faith, we today also look to the second coming of Jesus in faith." francis

It is "by faith" and not "in faith". It is by faith that a Christian believe in Jesus Christ and not in faith.

Scripture says, "By faith Abel offered unto God, By faith Enoch was translated, By faith Noah, being warned of God, By faith Abraham, when he was called, By faith he sojourned in the land of promise"
---christan on 1/28/12


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//FAITH is not different in NT and OT.
---
yes, it is faith that God honors!

While the righteous must live by faith (Romans 1:17, Gal. 3:11)instead of by law, we can also concur with scripture that the law was but a guide, guardian or schoolmaster to lead us to faith in Christ.

Gal 3:24-25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Good going Francis, you are getting closer and closer to the truth all the time. Olde Ellen White may start rolling in her grave if you keep this up.
---lee1538 on 1/28/12


The saints of the OT looked forward to the coming of Jesus in faith, we today also look to the second coming of Jesus in faith.

The saints of the OT lookded forward to the cross, the sacrifice of the lamb of God in faith, we today look back at the cross, the sacrifice of the lamb of God in faith

FAITH is not different in NT and OT.
---francis on 1/28/12


Francis, you said, A new Spirit given to the believer that he may be able to keep the laws of God.
So does this mean sinless perfection after conversion? Does this mean our justification rests on this premise? Have you met anyone ever who fulfills the complete keeping of your interpretation of the law? If not, then what exactly are you saying? I may be reading into your words too much, if so, I apologize.
In His grip
---Poppa_Bear on 1/28/12


I like the answer given by Scott1 on 1/27/12. The difference between before and after the cross is the priesthood based on the tribe of Levi. That priesthood was "transfered back to Jesus." who is the true high priest, and the true minister of the true sanctuary which God built.

Hebrews 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

But the whole idea of the Levi priesthood was to show as a schoolmaster the plan of reddemption, How God would die for our sins.
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Yet the heavenly priesthood ws known even in OT times Isaiah 6:1
---francis on 1/28/12


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The new covenant has a promise not found in the old covenant.
Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put A NEW SPIRIT within you, and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

a New spirit given to the beleiver that he may be able to keep the laws of God.
the new covenant NEVER promises new laws or to do away with the laws, just the power of God to keep the law of God

Jeremiah 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
---francis on 1/27/12


This is some good stuff, some meat to nibble on. Good to see some real discussions and not just subtle putdowns and demeaning comments. There are allot of clear thoughtful remarks, biblical references, premises and conclusions, keep it coming. Im on the sidelines taking it in folks.
In His loving grip
---Poppa_Bear on 1/27/12


Francis: From other blog you raised concerns about what you labelled "holy flesh doctrine".

If you're referring to the physical body then its DEAD because of sin (Rom 8:10). Christians are crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6).
So the body is not holy. It's DEAD.

But being a new creature in Christ we are holy. Because "if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy" (Rom 11:16). We have been sanctified and perfected (Heb 10:10,14).

We are set free from sin (John 8:36) and righteous/not a sinner (1Pet 4:18).
But Heb 12:1 says we still have to avoid sin (going back under the law and making yourself a transgressor, Gal 2:18).
This is where SDA's get it wrong.
---Haz27 on 1/27/12


Bill_willa6989//Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant." (in Hebrews 7:22)

So, our New Covenant is also the "better" Covenant.
---
The problem here, as we see it with the Adventists, that some wish to believe that the New Covenant was but a rehash of the Old but only to a limited extent.

But these Judaizers have to pitch that view to justify adherence to the Levitical dietary laws and the Jewish Sabbath.
---lee1538 on 1/27/12


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Yes, for there are two separate and distinct Laws: the abolished levitical-Mosaic old testament law of B.C., before Christ, and the currently in force judaic-Messianic New Testament Law of A.D., annual of the Lord. And these two Laws are at enemity one to the other, for the old is the ministry of death, and the New is the ministry of life.
---Eloy on 1/27/12


yes but the ordinary person could not go into the holy of holies this is the purpose of the curtain being torn. The high priest in the OT had to go through a cleansing to go into the holy of holies to talk to God. The sacrifice burning incense was to quench the anger of God.
---Scott1 on 1/27/12
I understand what you are saying
---francis on 1/27/12


Hebrews 10:4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
---francis on 1/26/12

yes but the ordinary person could not go into the holy of holies this is the purpose of the curtain being torn. The high priest in the OT had to go through a cleansing to go into the holy of holies to talk to God. The sacrifice burning incense was to quench the anger of God.
---Scott1 on 1/27/12


One thing people fail to see in scripture is before the cross Jesus was called JESUS CHRIST. After the cross He was called CHRIST JESUS.

There is so much more to this which people don't understand, or they understand but reject!
---Rob on 1/26/12

rob there are no instances of christ jes...oohh, i mean...CHRIST JESUS before the resurrection but there are plenty of instance of JESUS CHRIST after. probably more than CHRIST JESUS.

please tell me, what is the significance?
---aka on 1/26/12


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The word "justified" is not being used here in reference to religious jargon/lingo.

"Lingo" is important to avoid in order to gain true understanding of God and scripture.

In the O.T., the Jews only worshipped THE FATHER (Jesus hadn't yet done the "works" of God nor was GOD IN ENTIRETY revealed to humanity before Jesus came).

God's Spirit was NOT given to us UNTIL JESUS WAS GLORIFIED (John 7:39, Jesus and the Spirit are a package deal),.....now we have ALL THREE.

God wants us to always make "distinctions" such as this. This is why the Spirit needs no mention here...
"he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son" (2 John 1:9)....verses are from RSV.
---more_excellent_way on 1/26/12


"For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law." (Hebrews 7:12)

"Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant." (in Hebrews 7:22)

So, our New Covenant is also the "better" Covenant.
---Bill_willa6989 on 1/26/12


Ok. Jesus is our high priest which gives us a link directly to God. This is not true in OT you had to go through a priest and/or cleansing ritual. ---Scott1 on 1/26/12

Actually this is not true.
The sacrificaial system was an act fo faith in Jesus who would be the high priest and lamb. Remember the blood of goats never cleansed anyone
Hebrews 10:4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
---francis on 1/26/12


Scott1 // Don't understand the question

Ok. Jesus is our high priest which gives us a link directly to God. This is not true in OT you had to go through a priest and/or cleansing ritual. As far as justification or salvation No. Justification is only through belief and faith in that the messiah to come if in OT (Gen 3 for example) or has come if in NT. Evidence is the rich man and Lazarus the rich man thought he was going to heaven because he was circumsed and being born a Jew.
---Scott1 on 1/26/12


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Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
---francis on 1/26/12


Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem (to free) those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

If we have been redeemed, then we are free but as adoptive sons & daughters we still have what is required in a relationship.
---lee1538 on 1/26/12


Before the Cross:

Eph 2:11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands, 12That at that time ye were without Christ , being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

After the Cross:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
---michael_e on 1/26/12


Scott1 // Don't understand the question.
---
Did the death of Christ usher in a New Covenant - a covenant that was unlike the one God gave to Israel when they came out of Egypt?

Was the relationship between man and God changed after the Cross, after the curtain of the temple was rent?

Was the priesthood that attended the worship of God changed after the Cross?
---lee1538 on 1/26/12


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unless we are truly in Him and abide in His word, we are not justified by any means.

iow, we are justified by Christ alone and not anything that we think, do, or say.
---aka on 1/26/12


One thing people fail to see in scripture is before the cross Jesus was called JESUS CHRIST. After the cross He was called CHRIST JESUS.

There is so much more to this which people don't understand, or they understand but reject!
---Rob on 1/26/12


Jesus is the same before and after the cross and the same in the OT and NT. God is the same yesterday today and forever. Don't understand the question.
---Scott1 on 1/26/12


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