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Are Dead Present With God

When we die are we absent from the body and present with the Lord? And if so, why does the scripture say that the dead will rise first. In revelation who are those that's under the altar and are told to rest a while longer till their brothers have finished their course. What happens to us at death?

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cliff, as i said before, i am not going to argue about spirit but our as to our body...

have you ever been around the homeless that does not have access to showers, soap, and fragrances? did you ever not shower for a few days? yes, i have a vile body, especially compared to Godliness.

i know you do not like Paul. I gave you a chance to name your scripture. you said by scripture you mean bible. in-arguably, Paul is in the Bible and you disagree with Paul. therefore, you disagree with scripture or the bible.
---aka on 2/12/12


aka, The question was "where does it say the spirit receives a glorified body?"
Phil.3.21. says "changing" one body into another,not one that's been a hundred years decomposed. Neither is spirit mentioned!
If one was translated (I think they call it) from earth to heaven, a body that can function in an other-than-earth environment would of necessity require a "super body"
I don't believe I have a "vile body", do you?
I don't particularly like Paul , but when every one on here feels that he's the next thing to God, what can you do?
---1st_cliff on 2/12/12


1Cliff, you really don't want the Truth. You know that. You figure you can out smart others and so ask the questions you ask. If your intention were for good, you would not even ask those questions. You would open your heart and the Spirit would guide you to all Truth. Many things can be twisted when a person intention is to twist what truth to a lie. But God looks at the heart for from the heart is really where all matter of evil comes from. Not from the mind. You sound like a real nice guy, I would love for you to learn the spiritual side of our salvation. You think too much from your own wisdom. My brother did the very same thing, and let me say he was the smartest person I ever knew.
---Mark_V. on 2/12/12


Please tell me where the bible says the spirit receives a glorified body!
You know it doesn't say that, you just made it up huh?
Stay within the parameters of the bible OK?
---1st_cliff

i am not going to argue about spirit but our as to our body...

Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven, from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body , according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Cliff, Stay within the parameters of the bible OK?
---aka on 2/11/12


2 Corinthians 5:4.. that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

1 Corinthians 15:52 AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,

Mortality will be swallowed up of life / put on imortality at THE LAST TRUMP

Which means we do NOT go to heaven at death
Absent from the body present with the lord does not mean we go to heaven at death. It is the ability to look past our aches, pains, and physical infirmities, and focus on the Lord
---francis on 2/11/12




no where does it say when you die you go straight to heaven or hell.
*****

AMEN!!

Per Holy Scripture King David did NOT ascend to heaven simply because no man has ascended to heaven - NOT one

it is appointed once for all men to die ...physical human beings do not and have not EVER possessed immortality as the pagans taught and believed

no man has immorality YET and this is easy to understand Christ has not returned with the promised reward of salvation
---Rhonda on 2/11/12


Mark V, Please tell me where the bible says the spirit receives a glorified body!
You know it doesn't say that, you just made it up huh?
Stay within the parameters of the bible OK?
---1st_cliff on 2/11/12


Samuel //Ellen White tells people to spend time reading the Bible to trust the Bible and study it for themselves that they may defend the truth from the WORD of GOD.

And those that have prayerfully studied the Bible have concluded Adventism is a false gospel. Thousands including some prominent pastors, theologians and others have left and now go to denominations that truly preaches the gospel. We can easily see that in the huge number of books written by former Adventists.

//That the Bible is to be the final authority in all matters.
---

Adventists still have to go to Ellen White for answers. And while the Bible may be the final authority, it must be interpreted by the theology of Ellen White.
---lee1538 on 2/11/12


Neptune, sorry to tell you but King David is dead. He is not asleep. If you were to find his body it is dust by now. And dust does not sleep. His spirit is with God alright. At the Second Coming his Spirit will receive a glorified body prepared for all eternity.
---Mark_V. on 2/11/12


--Ellen White tells people to spend time reading the Bible to trust the Bible and study it for themselves that they may defend the truth from the WORD of GOD. That the Bible is to be the final authority in all matters.
---Samuel on 2/10/12
--

Why would someone who values what the word of God says dare try to pinpoint the return of Christ (and make a fool of herself and our God) when Jesus says that no man can know?

Did she really practice what she preached?
---CraigA on 2/11/12




The bible is very clear. When you die you go to in a sence a nice long sleep. The spirit, the essence of llife goes back to Yaweh. As King David still sleeps so will you. I am going to make some folks mad I know but no where does it say when you die you go straight to heaven or hell. You sleep until your Salvation returns to get you. It is as simple as you just wrote what it says in the bible. Believe the truth not the traditions of men.
---Neptune0461 on 2/11/12


Lee you forget that Joseph Smith places his word above the Bible and tells people that they cannot trust that book because of changes in it.

Ellen White tells people to spend time reading the Bible to trust the Bible and study it for themselves that they may defend the truth from the WORD of GOD. That the Bible is to be the final authority in all matters.
---Samuel on 2/10/12


We can see that in Ellen White who often spoke of her 'accompanying angel' -
---lee1538 on 2/10/12
Hebrews 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?


Many people have encountered angels. No suprise that a prophets of God would also
---francis on 2/10/12


//lies and missquotes are not proof. They are the work of Satan.

And lies & misquotes are also the work of demons using people that claim to be of God. We can see that in Ellen White who often spoke of her 'accompanying angel' - a story not much different from the Joseph Smith of Mormonism who also claimed to be guided by angels.

We can be very thankful of the Christians on Christianet that have helped expose the falsehood of those who claim they are Christians but really are of the synagogue of Satan. Rev. 3:9
---lee1538 on 2/10/12


---lee1538 on 2/9/12
lies and missquotes are not proof. They are the work of satan

John 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
---francis on 2/10/12


Francis//PROVE IT

All too easy to see!

The writings of Ellen White are on the same shelf with the Bible. i.e. extrabiblical.

Adventists being still under the Old Sinai Covenant are the children of Hagar who continue to persecute the children of promise. They continue to advocate adherence to OT law. Ever read Galatians?

And are not those who attempt to introduce new doctrines not heard of or seen in the early church not apostate? You will not find your Investigative Judgment theory in any of the early church writings and if at all true, it would be an essential doctrine. Jude 3

And are not those who preach a works salvation instead of salvation by grace teach another gospel as well as a different Jesus.
---lee1538 on 2/9/12


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Howbeit, Adventists put their trust in Ellen White, a false prophetess that Satan uses to lead people astray or to make Christians fruitless.
---lee1538 on 2/8/12
PROVE IT
---francis on 2/9/12


//The bible says:
Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

The Bible also tells us not to put our trust in man period!

Howbeit, Adventists put their trust in Ellen White, a false prophetess that Satan uses to lead people astray or to make Christians fruitless.
---lee1538 on 2/8/12


The bible says:
Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day HIS THOUGHTS PERISH.

So we know for 100% sure that this rich man died, thus he had NO THOUGHTS.
that being the case he could not have communited with Abraham who also has no thought, being dead

BIBLE SAYS:
Ecclesiastes 9:5 the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward, for the MEMORY of them is forgotten.

If the rich man has NO MEMORY how can he remeber his brothers.

The point of this story is this: Luke 16:31 If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
---francis on 2/7/12


francis //Every human being must be judged. judgement starts with those who profess faith in Jesus FIRST.
They will be vindicated, declared not guilty by reason the blood of Jesus.
---
Even if they commit the most horrible sin in Adventism, ie. not observing the old Jewish Sabbath?

What is happening to you francis in making such a statement? God must be speaking to you.
---lee1538 on 2/7/12


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francis//all these scriptures ensure that the rich man and lazarous is only a parable
---
Did not the audience of Jesus believe that hell was a place of torment of the damned or was He just another fictional story teller?

Since all of the other parables of jesus were based upon a reality, I cannot accept your view that there is no consciousness after the grave.
---lee1538 on 2/7/12


The house from heaven is "eternal" or immortal and represents the state of immortality which awaits the redeemed beyond the resurrection. Here is where the greatest misunderstanding enters the picture. Some have thought that the "house from heaven" is put on at the moment of death. But the apostle clearly spells out the TIME when he will put on immortality.

Notice how he explains when "mortality is swallowed up of life," in Romans 8:22

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 "... we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump ... this mortal must put on immortality." In other words, we do not put on the house from heaven until the coming of Jesus
---francis on 2/7/12


2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad

1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Every human being must be judged. judgement starts with those who profess faith in Jesus FIRST.
They will be vindicated, declared not guilty by reason the blood of Jesus.
---francis on 2/7/12


Adventists believe the dead are not conscious.
---lee1538 on 2/6/12
Then adventist are 100% correct

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished,

Psalms 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish.

Job 14:21 His sons come to honour, and he knoweth [it] not, and they are brought low, but he perceiveth [it] not of them.

Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

all these scriptures ensure that the rich man and lazarous is only a parable
---francis on 2/7/12


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I see a judgment on ones works, but not on ones eternal salvation.

1 Cor. 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

While guilty of sleeping with his mother, his spirit was to be saved on the day of the Lord.

Of course, sleeping with ones mother is not as horrible as not observing the Jewish Sabbath - at least that is what olde Ellen White would have us believe.
---lee1538 on 2/6/12


Francis - it is well known that Adventists believe in soul sleep, the belief the dead are not conscious.

That belief would reject the view that hell is an actual place of the damned who are awaiting final judgment.

The parable of the rich man and Larazus, hell or hades is the place where the damned reside and are in torment.
---lee1538 on 2/6/12


Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Barnes notes: Until the Ancient of days came - this was to occur after the horn grew to its full size, and after the war was made with the saints, and they had been overcome.

At some subsequent period the Ancient of days would come, and would set up a kingdom on the earth, or would make over the kingdom to the saints.

There would be as real a transfer and as actual a setting up of a peculiar kingdom, as if God himself should appear on the earth, and should publicly make over the dominion to them.

This speaks of the upcoming 1000 reigh of Christ on earth.
---lee1538 on 2/6/12


Does not scripture teach that the believer will not come into judgment?
---lee1538 on 2/6/12
Judgment has at least two meanins. In one cantex justment means decision:
Daniel 7:22 and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
In some cantext judgment measn punishment
Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.


But everyone will be judged.
Judgment starts with the believers 1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:
---francis on 2/6/12


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is the Adventists who will not believe the plain truth of scripture but will continue ad nauseum to twist scripture to say that the spirit of the dead in Christ are in the grave sleeping.
---lee1538 on 2/4/12

Why is it so hard for you to stop telling lies. No adventist has ever said that
" the spirit of the dead in Christ are in the grave sleeping."

If you can find ONE adventist who said that PLEASE POST it
Or show that you are a christain and apoligize
---francis on 2/6/12


Does not scripture teach that the believer will not come into judgment?

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Yes, I can understand a judgment on our works as scripture teaches that much.

1 Cor.3:13 each ones work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.

A judgment on us is not the same as on our works.
---lee1538 on 2/6/12


Blogger9211, I believe you should take your own advice. You forgot to mention that believers do not go to the Great White Throne of Judgment to be judge. They will be present but not for judgment. The believers spirit does not die. They are sons of God spiritually. Made alive by the Holy Spirit. Unbelievers are also alive after they die for God is not the God of the dead but of the living, whether departed from their earthly bodies or not. Luke 20:36-38).
---Mark_V. on 2/6/12


Shirley, you are basing your belief on a fragment of a verse of scripture which in full context does not mean what you think it does. Paul along with the rest of Jesus decuples bereaved the Christ return and judgment would be within their life times which never occurred. Jesus never said it would it was just a poor assumption on their part. In 2 Cor. Ch 4:1 through 6:10 Paul starts a long discourse about what we should be accomplishing to please God and out accountability for so doing that will be evaluated at our time of judgment.

When one extracts verses from the main body of context in which they are presented it to often results in false teaching and you commit heresy.
---Blogger9211 on 2/5/12


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//have no clue who the "adventists" are or their beliefs although it is very interesting to SEE the blind are REALLY blind!!
----
Perhaps you should become familar with who the Adventists are since they are really one of your sister religion founded by some dole that knew little or nothing about the Bible, its Author, or its history.

In any case, Sabbaterians will always be in the minority since their doctrinal beliefs are the hardest to defend.
---lee1538 on 2/5/12


To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord that is what I believe.We are as far below God as a dog is below us.Still HE died for us and takes us unto HIS family.God knows how to fulfill all of His WORD.We don't.
---shirley on 2/5/12


Rhonda, you say you believe in the Word of God and then turn around and contradict what you say in two sentences. First you say,
"when Christ returns HE will resurrect ALL who are in HIM to everlasting life"
You said "resurrect all who are in Him" If they are in Him, how can they be asleep? Are you implying Christ is asleep? Since they are in Him.
Then contradict by saying:

"At death we wait ...our thoughts perish, we are in silence, we do not worship GOD while we are dead"
Which is it? are they asleep in the spirit also, or are they in Christ?
---Mark_V. on 2/5/12


...Adventists who will not believe the plain truth of scripture ...say that the spirit of the dead in Christ are in the grave sleeping.
*****

have no clue who the "adventists" are or their beliefs although it is very interesting to SEE the blind are REALLY blind!!

Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. (and so many others)

believe EVERY WORD from GOD in HIS WORD

or believe those who REJECT Gods Word which states the dead are asleep

I'll choose Gods Holy Word that STATES the dead are asleep which is WHY the dead rise first
---Rhonda on 2/4/12


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//Rena, blogger9211 might have a lot of knowledge of Hebrew and Greek, but little knowledge of the Truth of what is written

And that is the major problem with those that will have their denominational affiliation dictate what they believe instead of the written word itself. They usually believe that the church became corrupted and they were anointed by God to reform His church. The Holy Spirit could not do it, so they believe they were given the task.

A good example on this blog is the Adventists who will not believe the plain truth of scripture but will continue ad nauseum to twist scripture to say that the spirit of the dead in Christ are in the grave sleeping.
---lee1538 on 2/4/12


The dead rise first because they are dead as Holy Scripture teaches ...As Apostles stated King David is dead and buried waiting for the LAST DAY

when Christ returns HE will resurrect ALL who are in HIM to everlasting life

At death we wait ...our thoughts perish, we are in silence, we do not worship GOD while we are dead

Christ said MANY would come in HIS name to deceive ...either believe those who REJECT plain easily understood verses to create their own meaning

or BELIEVE EVERY WORD from God Luke 4:4
---Rhonda on 2/4/12


Rena, blogger9211 might have a lot of knowledge of Hebrew and Greek, but little knowledge of the Truth of what is written. When a person is born of the Spirit he is forever a part of the body of Christ, forever. We as believers can enjoy that now in this life. At our glorification we will be complete. But right now and forever we are in Christ. Scripture never speaks of Christ separating from us after we are born of the Spirit.
We are seated with Christ, we have an eternal Sabbath rest,
And we have the Holy Spirit forever.
---Mark_V. on 2/4/12


Having history knowledge of the Holy Bible does not save anyone. The Pharisees had full knowledge of the God's law, it couldn't save them from their sins. Seminaries/Bible colleges are conducted by well-learned teachers but they are not saved. Having knowledge of Greek and Hebrew definitions and yet not belief is worthless. Christ declared,

"It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
---christan on 2/3/12


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Rena, Rapture is Hersey. No where it is scripture is it implied you go to heaven or hell immediately when you Die. You have not been judged yet and that does not happen until after the resurrection of the dead. You clearly do not know the Hebrew & Greek definitions of SOUL or SPIRIT both have multiple meanings and you don't know which apply where as you are trying to think in English and in Bible study you must think in Hebrew and Greek. Daniel was written during the Maccabean the great tribulation was then. Revelation is not scripture about 10% may have been written by John the Apostle but someone use else wrote from Chapter 2 to the end so the book is untrustworthy.
---Blogger9211 on 2/3/12


Blogger9211, you can try and impress everyone with your knowledge of Greek but so long as you're not born of the Spirit and not been given faith by God, it counts for nothing as you only understand it by flesh. Talk about grasping at straws.

Read this, "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." What's Paul's message here?

And for you to say, "Luke is a very dubious source text..", you blaspheme the Holy Spirit by calling Luke dubious!
---christan on 2/3/12


Christian, you are grasping at straws again citing the Luke's gospel specifically Luke 23:43. The original Greek text is unparsed and unpunctuated and the addition of punctuation specifically where the coma is placed prior or after TODAY is a matter of translators addenda. Placing it prior to TODAY implies immediacy where placing it after TODAY implies sometime in the future and is the only placement constant with the dominant body of scripture.

Luke is a very dubious source text to start with and Like 23:43 is part of the 35% of Luke that is un-collaborated by eye witness New Testament authors. Until Luke is with Paul his sources are simply the unsubstantiated embellished gossip of others. He did not observe these events.
---Blogger9211 on 2/2/12


We are present with the Lord when we die. We are body, mind, and soul. The body, remains, but our souls that replicates an Eternal God, for the believers, are transported to Him. I Cor.15:19, 53-58. After the Rapture, our physical bodies are transformed if we are alive at the time to meet Christ in mid-air.(verses 51-52). Following the Rapture , the Great Tribulation, as discribed by the books of Daniel and Revelation, a 7 year period of great tribulation and persecution occurs especially for the Jews. The Believers killed during this time period must wait for the end of the 7 year period for Christ's Messanic return,to reclaim and redeem His people. They are the souls that are under the altar, or mercy seat, interceeding for their nation.
---Rena on 2/2/12


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Blogger9211, think carefully about Luke 16:20-31, the rich man went to Hades and Lazarus to Paradise to be with Abraham and saints. The thief on the cross next to Christ, "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." Luke 23:43

It doesn't go well with your understanding "In the interim you are just dead body soul [living creature] and spirit."

You see, there're those who're already in Paradise waiting for their glorification and there are those who are in Hades waiting to be cast into the Lake of Fire. See anything wrong with your understanding?

The decision of who goes to heaven and hell has already been predestined by God.
---christan on 2/2/12


No one goes anywhere until after they are judged and judgment does not occur until after the resurrection of the dead. In the interim you are just dead body soul [living creature] and spirit.
---Blogger9211 on 2/2/12


Rhonda, so when Jesus died on the Cross, He came to know nothing since the dead know nothing.

Sorry but I am unconvinced of your argument as there are interpretations that are more plausible.
---lee1538 on 2/1/12


It's not that we do not believe in God's Word. Maybe what you are implying is that they have to believe in God's Word ACCORDING to YOUR understanding, right?
*****

well now according to YOUR interpretation than all of the verses that state the dead are in silence and do not hear GOD cannot praise GOD "really mean" something else?

come now who is zooming who here???

enlighten me these words are PLAIN do you have ANOTHER "biblical definition" for these VERY PLAIN words?

so who would be practicing ANOTHER "meaning" me who believes the words as written or YOU who rejects dismisses and ignores simple words and creates ANOTHER definition for them?
---Rhonda on 2/1/12


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1stCliff, instead of focusing on the words like "dieth not and is not quenched" which symbolizes eternal, you are more concern about maggots and worms feeding on earthly bodies.

Such classic symptoms like yours are known as Acute Nicodemuslitis which by the testimony of Scripture goes like this, "Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" John 3:4

Jesus diagnosis was, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?" John 3:6,12
---christan on 2/1/12


It is doubtful if any view regarding the immediate destiny of the dead or whether the reprobate will cease to exist in the lake of fire,is a central belief that we must subscribe to.

Do we need to toss verbal rocks at each other and accuse each other of being less than a Christian?
---lee1538 on 1/31/12


Christian, You obviously cannot tell the difference between a parable and reality,between symbolic and literal, how else could you come up with the only creatures on earth that have immortality are maggots!
How many billion-billions are there now? (maybe a google)
Clear as daylight??
Maybe clear as mud!
This might come as a shock to you but Abraham died a long time ago!
Show me the scripture where he went somewhere!
---1st_cliff on 1/31/12


Christian,** Reprobates receive a body**
What do maggots feed on?
They are flesh eaters, they are some how going to eat spirit bodies??
When they consume them ,what's left to eat since they exist forever?

This is parallel to the Quran's "hell" where when the flesh is scalded off it keeps renewing and scalding off over and over!
The thirsty are given boiling water to drink!
Calander says this is 2012 CE !
---1st_cliff on 1/31/12


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Christan - thank for trying to help me make up my mind on this issue, however, I believe there are still questions on this subject that need to be answered but cannot be answered from scripture alone.

The parable of the rich man in hell and Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham does NOT imply immortality. If these characters reflect reality, then all we can truly say is that the dead are conscious and aware of their situation.

The view that God would be one that would torment those of His creation forever would seem to lack any good purpose.

Again, I thank you and MarkV for your opinion, however, the argument for or against is yet inconclusive.
---lee1538 on 1/31/12


lee, just because the Scripture is silent on what kind of body the reprobates will have, doesn't mean they are not going to exist.

Clear as daylight in Christ's teaching about afterlife on earth in Luke 16:20-31, those in Hades do recognize one another or how else was he pleading with Abraham, which is a clear picture of a reprobate soul in eternal death being tormented. Too bad you don't believe or as some who make light of this teaching, it's not going to change God's plan of eternal death. You can be sure just as His elect are given a glorified body, the reprobates will receive one also but for eternal torment. Jesus repeated three times in Mark 9,

"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
---christan on 1/31/12


Mark V -Thank you for your opinion. Agree that Christ alone has immortality in His resurrected body.

However, while the believer will put on immortality, there is nothing in scripture to indicate that the unbeliever will ever receive immortality.

And immortality is necessary if the damned were to suffer conscious torment in the lake of fire.

Christan, the problem with the concept of eternal death is that it may not mean eternal or everlasting torment.

Again, perhaps we can say that Spirit is merely "painting a picture" of utmost destruction.
---lee1538 on 1/31/12


Lee, concerning (1 Tim. 6:16). The passage is talking about Jesus Christ "immortal body" Only Christ has an immortal body today and then. But at His Second Coming things will change. (1 Cor. 15:49-58) tells us of this change that will happen because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption, but then it says, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. (1 Thess. 4:4:16) speak of this for the saints, but we are also told in (v.5:9) "For God has not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" implying there are those who were appointed to wrath. Meaning they too will have a resurrected body prepared for hell.
---Mark_V. on 1/31/12


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lee, in Revelation 20:10 and many other verses like Luke 16:20-31 the Holy Spirit is painting us a "picture of torment/punishment", which does not mean that there will be day and night. It's for our finite minds to understand what eternal means, which in eternity, time ceases, that's why eternal. Hence the Spirit followed up with "forever and ever".

What's important to believe is the elect will be in eternal bliss with Christ in heaven and the unbelievers will be in hell to be tormented in eternal death. And if the unbelievers ceases to exist according to some real fools, who then is God tormenting if nobody exist? And if nobody exists, why did Christ even teach eternal death?
---christan on 1/31/12


Lee, your statement is stereotypical. I "believe the dead are no longer conscious". Yet I do not "advocate one must merit salvation by righteous behavior." Lou,To clarify my previous post. I know that "absent from the body and present with the Lord" is not applicable on either a physical or spiritual level, because we will not be in Jesus' physical presence, without a physical body. Though celestial, It will be solid, just like the resurrected body of Jesus. 1Jo 3:2>1Th 4:17>Psa 17:15.And on a spiritual level, the Lord has made it clear that He abides within us, and is ever present. Therefore, the verse has to be referring to an abode in reference to our overall disposition. For we walk by faith, not by sight.
---Josef on 1/31/12


Christian, To torture humans is just not God's way!
The word torment came into the English language in the 13th century! What it meant before that is a guess!
Old English gaol (Jail)keepers were called tormentors as also was the "rack" Cruel and unusual punishment does not fit a loving God!
The smoke ascends day and night? where? has anyone seen this "smoke" It doesn't exist and neither does the fire!
Get real! Symbols are symbols!
God waited 4 thousand years before telling humans their fate? Ya right!
---1st_cliff on 1/30/12


Christan -Revelation 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Does the verse mean that there will be 'dayand night forever and ever' in the lake of fire?

Or is this verse similar in meaning to those verses that seem to say that the damned will suffer day and night forever & ever?
---lee1538 on 1/30/12


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1stCliff, you quote certain verses from Scriptures to justify your belief. Those verses quoted demonstrate your understanding is in darkness simply because Jesus, who's God teaches about eternal death during His ministry - which simply means there is "life" after the fleshly death in the form of "tormented day and night for ever and ever". If one ceases to exist how does one get tormented forever?

One belief what God wants them to belief, and that's the truth. And unless God shines His glorious and merciful light in the hearts of man, they will be forever kept in darkness not in this life only but "he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day" Jude 1:6
---christan on 1/30/12


One thing I see of this issue is those who believe the dead are no longer conscious are those who advocate one must merit salvation by righteous behavior - i.e. ones salvation will be determined by a judgment of works (re: SDA Investigative Judgment).

And these people do not believe in the classical interpretation of hell as a place of conscious torment of the damned. The story of Larzaus in the bosom of Abraham and the rich man in hell are simply make-up stories not based on any reality.

Finally, as only God has immortality,(1 Tim. 6:16), we do not see in the Bible any reference to the damned being given immortality. Can we not say then that the damned will be destroyed in the lake of fire since they will not possess immortality?
---lee1538 on 1/30/12


No, when we die we are not present with God

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also.

If we are present with him when we die, why must he come again to receive us?


Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
---francis on 1/30/12


Christian, Your understanding of "not able to kill the soul"(EZ.18.4) is flawed.
This is "future" not present,scripture is full of accounts of souls being killed!
---1st_cliff on 1/30/12


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Pierre //When a person dies his/her body returns to earth and the spirit/breath of life returns to the Creator God, until the person is resurrected at the 1st resurrection or the 2nd resurrecton.
---
And you would believe also that the wicked dead do not go to hell after their death where they would suffer, since the dead know nothing?

Does not the view of soul sleep on the dead, negate the view that there is a hell, a holding place for the damned until their bodies are resurrected?
---lee1538 on 1/30/12


Let me answer the question you recorded at the end of your blog: What happens to us at death?
When a person dies his/her body returns to earth and the
spirit/breath of life returns to the Creator God, until the person is resurrected at the 1st resurrection or the 2nd resurrecton.
---Pierre on 1/30/12


"believe GODS WORD or those who repeat the lies of their false ministers that contradict Holy Scripture" Rhonda

It's not that we do not believe in God's Word. Maybe what you are implying is that they have to believe in God's Word ACCORDING to YOUR understanding, right? To begin with, Scripture does not contradict Scriptures. Rather Scriptures contradict your understanding of God's Word.

I have never heard of such muddled and confused teachings with the verses you quoted from the Scriptures before. And when you said, "men will contradict GODS TRUTH by their own reasoning", you are actually speaking about yourself.
---christan on 1/30/12


The disciples often found God doing with them more and better than they had been understanding the scriptures. So, I would not try to "tell God" what His word means He is doing with those who "sleep in Jesus." (in 1 Thessalonians 4:14) Even in this life, there is a lot you can do in your sleep. God is not limited. And if Christ has been "formed" in us (Galatians 4:19) by the time we die, this can show how close to Jesus we will be, with Him as our new inner Person. We will be with Heaven's own Jesus, wherever we are (c: We already are growing in this, now. So, this is not just a theoretical matter.
---Bill_willa6989 on 1/30/12


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If one died and they were absent with their body and present with the Lord the idea would contradict Holy Scripture which states the thoughts of the dead perish (Psalms 6:5 146:3-4 115:17 Ecc 9:5-6,10) these are very basic and very plain words this is truth and GOD does not contradict himself however men will contradict GODS TRUTH by their own reasoning

Paul expressed his HOPE in Phil 1:23 to be with Christ at death YET understood he would not as EXPLAINED in 2Tim 4:6-8

The dead rise first because ALL who ever lived are dead and waiting PER Holy Scripture 2Tim 4:6-8 2Thess 2:1-6 Dan 12:2-3 1Corin 15:52

believe GODS WORD or those who repeat the lies of their false ministers that contradict Holy Scripture
---Rhonda on 1/29/12


"Don't let anyone tell you the bible is wrong!" 1stCliff

NOBODY is saying the Bible is wrong, it's your understanding that's erroneous! See the difference?

O yes, you can get "runover by a steam roller, chopped up in little pieces or cremated" in the flesh and die. Your understanding that your soul and spirit is destructible is foolishness. It's Godly wisdom that man was created tripartite - body, soul and spirit.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body IN HELL. Matthew 10:28, "Behold, all souls are mine... the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.
---christan on 1/29/12


Lets look at scriptures only without bringing church opinions into this. look at genesis 3:19 saying that he shall return to the ground from where he was taken..ecclesiates9:10 speaking about the dead knowing nothing, OR in the NT when it says noone but Jesus has descended nor ascended to heaven.(john 3:13) this vision you speak of is future ,at the ressurection, not before hand.
---candice on 1/29/12


Sometimes people keep the ashes of their dead loved ones in a special place in their homes.
---John.usa on 1/29/12


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I say yes, when we die we are absent from the body and present with the Lord.According to 2 Corithians 5:1-10. I beleive our Spirit Lives on wether in heaven or in hell. Also, the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:22-26 speaks of how Lazarus resides in the bosom of Abraham.
As far as the dead being raised first, the bible says in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 The dead is Christ shall rise first. I beleive (personal opinion)that it is a honor and privelege to rise first. Thessalonians is speaking of our heavenly bodies--corruptible to incorruptible and mortality into immortality. Like Paul, we are absent from the body ( our spirit still lives)and we go to one of two places, Heaven or hell.
---P_Hayes on 1/29/12


"When we die are we absent from the body and present with the Lord?" ---Lou_Williams on 1/28/12. No.
The only word in 2Cor.5:1-9 that references the corporeal physical body is the word "tabernacle". The word body as it is utilized in this chapter is the "earthly house" of this tabernacle, as the natural carnal mentality man abides in from birth. Used in the same way that the term "body of sin" in Rom.6:6 >Col.2:11 and "Body of this death" in Rom.7:24 are used. What is being discussed is the carnality of man verses the mindset of Christ, or a mind opened to abiding in the Word of God by faith.
---Josef on 1/29/12


Lou, This is the cardinal question of Christianity!
The bible answers this at Psl. 146.4 " His breath goeth forth,he retuneth to his earth ,in that very day his thoughts perish!"
Also Eccl. 9.5 "the dead know nothing"
Don't let anyone tell you the bible is wrong!
They will try and sell you on the idea that runover by a steam roller, chopped up in little pieces or cremated ...you keep on living!
Yep... that's what they say!
---1st_cliff on 1/29/12


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