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Who Raised Jesus From Dead

Exactly who raised Jesus from the dead? Acts 3:15 says God did, John 10:18 says Jesus raised Himself and Romans 8:11 says the Spirit did.

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Colossians 1:15-

If Paul really wanted to state that Christ was only 'preeminent' (rather than the literal meaning- "First born") without any implications of a temporal birth involved as Trinitarians insist, then PROTOTOKOS was a poor choice of words. Especially since he actually had a term for "preeminent" available to him which he ironically employed only three passages later (vs 18), "PROTEUO," in reference to the first-rank or excellence ("preeminent"- KJV) of Christ's resurrection.

Of course this still leaves the oddity as to why if God is a Trinity the Son would be singled out for such a description as preeminent more so than the supposedly co-equal Father and the Holy Spirit.
---scott on 2/8/12


"You are definitely stuck with 'garbish.' Most people bin it, you wear it." Warwick

Nice. Here's my other cheek.
---scott on 2/7/12


Lee, I resemble that remark! And maybe you meant obscenities?
---Warwick on 2/7/12


Scott, you are definitely stuck with 'garbish.' Most people bin it, you wear it.
---Warwick on 2/7/12


"Don't you know ME Philip?" Warwick

So rather than view this "seeing" figuratively as the respected International Standard Bible Encyclopedia states "[a] coming to [an] understanding of God...by...acquaintance with Jesus Christ" (and citing Jn 14:9 as an example, you are arguing for a literal interpretation.

And this literal interpretation (without changing John's words from Father to God) means that Jesus is the Father.

So again I ask you...is the Son the Father? That is the conclusion that your literal interpretation leads to. Not that they have seen God but they have seen the "Father."

Is the Son the Father?
---scott on 2/7/12




How does this conversation unify the body? If I were a lost soul looking for answers,would I find them here? or If I were an unbeliver looking for a reason to belive what would I find? salvation or confussion? What is it that you are trying to win? Trophys or Hearts?
---Sue589634 on 2/7/12


Warwick: I find if I post 2 posts one after another on the same blog (even if it's addressing different people)only one gets posted.
That is one possibility your post was not published. Try leaving a longer period before the second post.
---Haz27 on 2/7/12


Lee 1538,Of all the time I've been on here I've never seen Warwick use "obscenities" maybe a little terse or crusty but never obscene, and neither have I!
---1st_cliff on 2/7/12


Warwick//Maybe the moderator can tell us why our best efforts aren't published?
---
Maybe you use too many obsenities!
---lee1538 on 2/7/12


"Scott..Such nonesense." Mark_V

"Nonesense?" Let's stick with "Garbish".
---scott on 2/7/12




Cliff, we all share the same problem. It is annoying when you go to the trouble of replying and it isn't published. And of course they are the best ones aren't they. Like the big fish which got away!

Maybe the moderator can tell us why our best efforts aren't published?
---Warwick on 2/7/12


David said: ''Where does Colossians 1 say 'everything holds together because of him'? This must be an emotional pleading on your behalf for the trinity dogma.''

The word is sunestayke and is found in the 17th verse of Colossians 1.

Fortunately (though unfortunately for you!) ''emotional pleading'' wasn't permitted in my university Classic Greek classes. Stick to the script and do not cheapen the discussion by resorting to ad hominem out of sheer desperation, David.
---Marc on 2/7/12


Scott, you do a lot of comparisons of words and you try to hide the truth. You said, "Horao ("see") can mean the same thing as "abiding in".
Abiding means (remaining) for abide means (remain). It does not mean "seen" or to "see." Such nonesense. If anyone really looked up the words to everything you say, they will find you twist the words to fit your cult religion.
---Mark_V. on 2/7/12


Scott,I quoted Jesus. Philip asks Jesus to show them the Father-Jesus replies"Don't you know ME Philip?" He can say this because there is one God, the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God, one God and Jesus is that God in the flesh, with us. Jesus continues "Anyone who has seen ME has seen the Father."

Because of your anthropomorphic antiHoly Spirit indoctrination you can not understand what Scripture says "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned" 1 Corinthians 2:14.

You call Jesus a creature then have him saying Phillip should recognize him as God!
---Warwick on 2/6/12


Warwick, I have to "throw in the towel" on this!
Why?, well some of my best answers that take much preparation ,goes unpublished!
I look with anticipation for it and your response, but alas, it's deleted!
---1st_cliff on 2/6/12


"Seen the Father"-(2)-

Continued-

ISBE: "Statements that human beings have seen or will see God Himself do not refer to a perception of a physical aspect of God...but a process of coming to [an] understanding of God...either by a revelatory vision (Isa. 6:15, Ezk. 1:26-28), or by their acquaintance with Jesus Christ (Jn 14:9,)." vol. 4, p. 380,

New International Dictionary of NT Theology says:

"Horao" means "become aware (Gen. 37:1). Figuratively it comes to be used of intellectual or spiritual perception...to know or have experienced (Deut. 11:2)"...horao can mean to obtain knowledge". Vol. 3, pp. 513, 515, 518.
---scott on 2/6/12


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Aka- to sling mud and run for cover in the way you have in your comments 2/5/12 here is nothing but 'guttersnipe' mentality. - David8318

run? here i am.

the JW flip flops are well documented. I am sorry that you are not permitted to read them.
---aka on 2/6/12


Are the Words of God not Him?
God is Spirit-Those who believe His Word- Call upon Him in the name of Y'sha why? Because He declared-He is Savior.Is 43:3 How did he declare? With His Word down to each letter. Elohyim -Word that was God and became flesh, spoken by His "Breath" ['ru ahh.']
Spirit and in Truth...

By [the word] of Yahweh the heavens were made and by the wind (ru'ahh-breath) of his mouth all thier armies. Gen 8,1
That would be the same as saying Y'shua is not Spirit and Flesh.
Did He not breath, did he not speak?

He breath (ru'ahh)on them...
Zech 14:9 His name is ONE
---char on 2/6/12


"Seen the Father...." Warwick

Did you catch it? There it was again. It's a theological shell game.

Warwick, again, cites John: "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." But then concludes (wait for it...):

"Jesus is straightforwardly saying He is God in the flesh." Warwick

But John says no such thing. Warwick casually makes this switch out of necessity. Because if 'seeing Jesus' means they literally see just the Father (as John states) and the conclusion is that they are one and the same you have Modalism.

So the switch has to be made from "The Father" to "God".
---scott on 2/6/12


"Seen the Father"- John 14:9 (1)-

Notice the relationship between "know" and "see" in texts also written by John:

"The one who does good is of God, the one who does evil has not seen [horao] God." 3 John 11

"No one who abides in Him sins, no one who sins has seen [horao] Him or knows Him." 1 John 3:6. NASB.

Horao ("see") can mean the same thing as "abiding in" or "knowing," and all three may have the figurative meaning of agreement in purpose and will with someone else.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says:

Continued
---scott on 2/6/12


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Marc, if you believe I have 'misapprehended' Colossians 1, then you have completely misunderstood it.

Yes the context of Colossians 1 'the Son's inheritance (v. 12,13)', 'Christ being the Father's heir', God 'loves the Son (v. 13)', 'Christ is the image of God'. As I said before, at Colossians chapter 1 Jesus is subordinate to his Father, Jehovah God.

Yes, 'all things' were created 'through' Jesus (NAS, ASV and Westcott & Hort Greek text) and 'for' Jesus.

Where does Colossians 1 say 'everything holds together because of him'? This must be an emotional pleading on your behalf for the trinity dogma.
---David8318 on 2/6/12


John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father, and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

It is not the physical form of the father which Jesus speaks about. But the character. The love and mercy expressed by Jesus in his works is the character of the father
---francis on 2/6/12


Colossians 1:15f He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation For. by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authoritiesall things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.

If that being the case, we should not take for granted what Jesus really is. To treat Him on the same level as God Himself would not be heretical.
---lee1538 on 2/6/12


Scott, how hard you try to sow confusion.

Apparently on behalf of himself and the others present Phillip asks "Show us the Father...." Jesus replies "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'"?

Jesus is asked to show them the Father and He answers Don't you know ME, Phillip?

And Anyone who has seen ME has seen the Father.

Jesus is straightforwardly saying He is God in the flesh, the visual representation of
God.

Your view has a creature, a man/angel saying knowing him is knowing the Father, and seeing him is seeing the Father. What heresy is this you promote?
---Warwick on 2/6/12


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Scott, you have been indoctrinated you into anthropomorphic naturalistic nonSpiritual views. "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned" 1 Corinthians 2:14.

You imagine 3 visible physical Gods. Like 3 stone gods on a bench. God is spirit not flesh who took upon Himself flesh. Hebrews 10:5 "....a body have you prepared for me." In John 14:9 this body is God in the flesh. But you claim Jesus is but an angel who became a man, a mere creature who says anyone who has seen me has seen the Father!
---Warwick on 2/6/12


Colossians 1:15 -Part 2

Does 'firstborn' have non-literal use? Certainly! David was the eighth born son yet was called God's firstborn. That is, he was the rightful heir to God's throne.

Given the surrounding CONTEXT of this verse i.e. Jesus is creator, is God's fullness and image, holds all things together, ''pases ktiseos'' is technically called an objective genitive (not a partitive genitive as Arians incorrectly ascribe and giving 'OF all creation'), meaning that the action of the Son's role and position implied in protokos ['firstborn'] terminate ON all creation. Therefore, Jesus is firstborn OVER all creation, given the grammar and context and translation to English.
---Marc on 2/6/12


"Seeing the Father" Warwick

Now they're seeing God in the flesh?

This identifies the theological 'switcheroo", necessary to read the Trinity into "proof texts".

Vs 14 doesn't say that they were seeing God (let alone "in the flesh"). Rather, "[they have] seen the Father." First Warwick, suggests that they literally see the Father which is Modalism.

Pressed with this obvious dilemma the wording must be switched to seeing "God" rather the "Father".

And since the (Trinitarian) Father isn't a separate God but one 'person' of God, if seeing Jesus means they are seeing "God" they are really seeing the Trinity, no?
---scott on 2/6/12


"Scott, sometimes when you answer you say such foolish things." Mark_V

"Time or status!"...

If you're talking to me that's "garbish" because I said none of what you've attributed to me.
---scott on 2/6/12


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Scott, I believe Lee is correct "The simple answer is that what the disciples were actually seeing is God in the flesh." That is the inescapable conclusion as to what Jesus has said.
---Warwick on 2/5/12


Cliff, Jesus made Himself willingly a servant, for a time. None the less He was God, but in typical humility did not feel the need to boast that He was God. Those who truly knew, and know Him, know He is God. He does not have to make any claims. But in His own way He has said it "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."

As Lee has correctly said "....what the disciples were actually seeing is God in the flesh."

A King though in a higher position than his son (for a while)is not better. "In the image of God he created them, male and female he created them" Genesis 1:27. All humans male, female, black, white, young or old are equal because they are all made in God's image.
---Warwick on 2/5/12


Colossians 1:15 -Part 1

Scott & David,

By isolating verses from context you misapprehend Colossians 1. The theme is the Son's inheritance (v. 12,13). Paul sets out reasons for Christ being the Father's heir: He loves the Son (v. 13), Christ is the image of God, He created EVERYTHING, everything created was created FOR Him, everything HOLDS together BECAUSE of Him, all the fullness of the Father is in Him.

How could a creature, an angel, as you guys claim, hold ALL reality and existence together and how could all of God be in Jesus, a mere creature, as you claim? Think what nonsense that is!
---Marc on 2/6/12


\\ it's long gone and so is Constantine with his Homoousios!\\

Constantine didn't come up with the term.

In any case, some say there was evidence he was a Semi-arian (homoIousis).

In any case, HOMOOUSIS still is true even in 2012, as it was in 1 AD.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/6/12


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Scott, sometimes when you answer you say such foolish things. Here is what you said to Leon,

"No son is equal to his father either in time or status!"

Is not the son of the same nature as his father? Or are you of the nature of a cow, horse, or any kind of animal? The animals have their own nature Scott, and humans have their own nature. Jesus Christ was of the same Divine nature of God. What keeps you blind to the Truth? Ask youself that question and you will know the answer.
---Mark_V. on 2/6/12


"Leon, Your answer is a cop out!
You know and I know there's no such statement in the bible!
Made up by trinitarian fundamentalists to try to prop up there week argument!
Look on the calendar, this is 2012 CE not 325Ce, it's long gone and so is Constantine with his Homoousios!
When you can't find bible support you make up your own...is that how it goes Leon?
Stick with scriptue and Deut.6.4.
---1st_cliff on 2/5/12"


Your reasoning (like your spelling Cliff) leaves a lot to be desired. The truth that I know is separated by a vast gulf (chasm) from what you think you know! You're one of those guys who foolishly spends all of his time outsmarting himself, just like a dog chasing his tail. Truly sad!
---Leon on 2/5/12


scott//Were the disciples literally seeing the Father when looking at Christ or not?

it's a simple question.
---
The simple answer is that what the disciples were actually seeing is God in the flesh.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
---lee1538 on 2/5/12


Leon, Your answer is a cop out!
You know and I know there's no such statement in the bible!
Made up by trinitarian fundamentalists to try to prop up there week argument!
Look on the calendar, this is 2012 CE not 325Ce, it's long gone and so is Constantine with his Homoousios!
When you can't find bible support you make up your own...is that how it goes Leon?
Stick with scriptue and Deut.6.4.
---1st_cliff on 2/5/12


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Warwick, To say that Paul's' statement (Phil.2.6.)"did not consider equality with God was something to be grasped because He was already equal"
Is a dumb statement,no one talks like that!
You don't have to be a bible scholar to figure out the gist of that!
it alredy said he was "in the very nature of God" or made of the same stuff (a spirit being)
KJV says "did not think it robbery" or consider robbing God by being equal.
God has no "EQUAL"
No son is equal to his father either in time or status!
---1st_cliff on 2/5/12


"It is clear Jesus believes that in seeing Him they have seen the Father." Warwick, 1/20/12

Introducing other texts (Hebrews 1:3 & Colossians 1:16,17) obviously is a red-herring approach in an attempt to avoid the simple topic. Not biting, not a fan of Herring, pickled or "Red".

You said "It is clear" What is clear?

Were the disciples literally seeing the Father when looking at Christ or not?

it's a simple question.
---scott on 2/5/12


"Leon, *The Father is God,the Son is God the Holy Spirit is God**
Book,Chapter ans verse,Leon!
If you can't find it, it doesn't exist!
---1st_cliff on 2/4/12"


BOOK Cliff? Too easy! It exists in the entire BOOK of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation! The reason you can't find it is because your god has your mind (soul) in a twist.
---Leon on 2/5/12


francis also read on!
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

And blessed are those who sleep in the lord!
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
shall not prevent them which are asleep. francis

All live! But some are fast asleep. Even at this very moment!
1Co_15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery, We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Mat_26:45 --Sleep on now, and take your rest:--
Joh_11:11 Our friend Lazarus sleepeth, but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Peace
---TheSeg on 2/5/12


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Scott, I think you meant I quoted John 14:9 where Jesus says "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." Should I not accept what He has said?

Jesus knows "He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power" Hebrews 1:3.

He does not consider equality with God something to be grasped because He is equal with God, being the Creator of everything created, Colossians 1:16,17.

If this is not true you have a creature saying look at me and you are looking at God!
---Warwick on 2/4/12


Scott "firstborn" is used of (King)David who was not firstborn, meaning preeminent. As I showed it is used showing others are preeminent not born first. It can mean a firstborn child but is obviously not limited to that.

As the Creator of everything created Jesus cannot be a creature therefore not born at all. To try and circumvent the obvious the WTS ignores its own Kingdom Interlinear and in the NWT adds "other" four times in Colossians 1:16,17 (e.g. "For by means of him all (other) things were created.") attempting to make Jesus a created being. So amazing that the Kingdom Interlinear agrees with other Interlinears but the NWT contradicts it! Simply bizarre!
---Warwick on 2/5/12


Jesus Is God Almighty. period. If Jesus wants to be The Father or The Son or The Spirit or The Lord God or The Way or The Truth or The Life or The Light or The Fire or The Rock or The Cornerstone or The Shepherd or The Lamb or The Creator or The Man or The Beginning or The Ultimate or The Everlasting or The Presence or The Holy or The Power or The Mind or The Word, He Is, for He is The I AM, and there is none like up to him.
---Eloy on 2/5/12


But all this make a folly out of Adventism..that one merely goes to sleep upon death.
---lee1538 on 2/4/12
You do not know adventist teaching because you do not know BIBLE TEACHING. Both adventiss and bible writers use the word SLEEP to refer to death

1 Kings 2:10 So David slept with his fathers,
1 Kings 11:43 And Solomon slept with his fathers
2 Kings 13:13 And Joash slept with his fathers
John 11: Our friend Lazarus sleepeth
Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit...And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep
---francis on 2/5/12


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Scott, no one has seen God Jehovah because He is Spirit and no one can see a spirit. But that does not mean that Jehovah didn't come in the form of man, (Phi. 2:6-11)You could only see the human man in the flesh, Jesus Christ, but not His Spirit.
In (Zechariah 12:10), where Jehovah is speaking, the description is to be applied clearly to Christ: "They shall look unto Me whom they have pierced". And again in (Rev. 1:7), describes Christ in the same language. (Jer. 23:5,6), Christ is declared to be "Jehovah our righteousness" (1 Cor. 1:30). Similar comparisons are found in other passages (Ps. 68:18: Eph. 4:8-10: Ps 102:12, 25-27: Heb. 1:10-12: Isa. 6:5: John 12:41).
---Mark_V. on 2/5/12


"I have never said that the Father is the Son. That is a lie." Warwick

Really? You recently cited John 14:7 and made a literal application saying:

"It is clear Jesus believes that in seeing Him they have seen the Father." Warwick, 1/20/12

Your literal conclusion obviously asserts that the Son is the Father.

If Christ's disciples were literally looking at the Father when seeing Jesus, rather than recognizing Christ as the perfect image of his Father (who no man has seen*), a representative who was sent to do his Father's will, then the Son must literally be the Father. This is Modalism.

*"No man hath seen God at any time..." John 1:18, Ex 33:20
---scott on 2/4/12


To be called deceitful by Warwick is reassuring as it means I must be speaking out against his pagan identity as a worshipper of a false trinitarian deity.

The Bible does not teach the false trinity doctrine, a doctrine which originated in ancient pagan Egypt. Colossians chapter 1 certainly in itself does not support or teach a trinity of gods- so whether [other] is used or not, it makes no difference to the meaning. Rather, as NAS, ASV, and the Westcott & Hort Greek text points out, 'All things' were created 'through' Jesus Christ.

No where in the Kingdom Interlinear does it say 'the Lord Jesus Christ is the creator of everything'. Jesus is the 'image' of Jehovah God his Father, Jesus being the firstborn of all creation.
---David8318 on 2/4/12


Proto-First in time(Image of the invisible)-Yshua.
God is Timeless. God is Spirit-(Breath-invisible)Jn 1:1-14[...]and the Word was God (Different dimension)[...]and the Word became flesh tangible/substance(this dimension-time centered.
Does this mean the Word of God was created? No,His Word was spoken into the world crux by time[this world] of substance for and to adam made of adamah(mankind=Souls in clay).Purpose? path-way back to Him-repentance/remission.
There is Only One God.
Satan claim to adam (mankind) God has a weakness-death.
anti-word stating God can not die, meaning God has no power Over death.
Truth: God is God and can do just as He said "All Things" in the visible and invisible-world.
1Cor 15:54
---char on 2/4/12


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Happy that I posed this question. Yes, the body may die but not the Spirit.

Christ when He was done with the Cross, merely stated
Lu 23:46 Father, into your "hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last.

And as his body was being put to death, Stephen committed his spriit to God.

Ac 7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

But all this make a folly out of Adventism as their god is the god of the sleeping heads, that one merely goes to sleep upon death.

Olde Ellen White believed she knew more than the saints of God's church in many of her errant beliefs.
---lee1538 on 2/4/12


Leon, *The Father is God,the Son is God the Holy Spirit is God**
Book,Chapter ans verse,Leon!
If you can't find it, it doesn't exist!
---1st_cliff on 2/4/12


"Leon: Hokum??
**unless He's really God**
or Not really dead!
In case you don't know,Leon, God is immortal and incapable of dieing! [dying]
He sent His Son to die and He really did die,that's why He needed a resurrection.
Do you see it now???
---1st_cliff on 2/3/12"


Yes, your usual HOKUM Cliff!

The Father is God, the Son is God & the Holy Spirit is God, i.e., three distinct persons in the Godhead, but one God. How is it you call the Father God, but you have a mental block against the Son being God?

Do you see it now??? Immortal God really did die just like the Bible said He (Jesus) did!
---Leon on 2/4/12


1Cliff, but I'm right, you do not believe the Bible. If you did, you would know the Truth. You said,
"At His baptism God said "this is my Son in whom I'm well pleased"
If it is His One and only begotten Son, does that not mean He is of the same essence?
Then you said,
""Not my will but Your will" means not my will but my will??"
Jesus in His humanity came from above (heaven) to do the will of the Father. What was conceived by Mary was of the Holy Spirit (Matt. 1:20) And in (Luke 1:35) "The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most Hight shall overshadow thee, wherefore also the Holy Thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God"
---Mark_V. on 2/4/12


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Scott you will say anything! I have never said that the Father is the Son. That is a lie.

I have but quoted Scripture, where Jesus says:

"I and the Father are one" John 10:30.

"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."

Your obvious deceit shows desperation.
---Warwick on 2/3/12


"A perfidious cult. The same heresy as taught by Arius long ago." Warwick

Warwick has stated, yes argued, that (in the Trinity), the Father IS the Son. This this the heresy of Modalistic Monarchianism.

Modalistic monarchianism claimed that the trinity operated in three modes, different aspects of god. God, they believed, would manifest himself as the father, the son and as the holy spirit. It made its way to Rome in the form of Sabellianism.

Sabellius and his followers were excomminucated. Despite this the movement survived and even tried to set up its own church and bishop in Rome.

Perfidious indeed.
---scott on 2/3/12


Prototokos-

At Col 1:15 Jesus is not just called 'firstborn', he is called 'the firstborn of every creature."

Grammatically he is included among the created and is numbered as the first.

Trinitarians must spin the simple, obvious language used by Paul because it presents a theological conundrum for them.

Prototokos- literally= "born first" - See Young's Analytical Concordance - or Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. The NT in the KJV and most other trinitarian translations use this meaning throughout. (Matt. 1:25 (KJV only), Luke 2:7, Ro. 8:29, Col. 1:15, Col. 1:18, Heb. 1:5, 6, Heb. 11:28, Heb. 12:23, Rev. 1:5 (compare Col. 1:18). None of them clearly means "pre-eminent".
---scott on 2/3/12


Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit:

Act_3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom (God) hath raised from the dead,
whereof we are witnesses.

Joh_10:18 --This commandment have I received of (my Father.)
she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Rom 8:11 But if (the Spirit) of him that raised up Jesus from the dead--

Mat_6:9 --Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat_6:13 --For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.

Mat_28:18 --All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Note Mat_6:9 and the end of 13.

Exactly who? I believe!
So, that's a tough one!
---TheSeg on 2/3/12


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Leon: Hokum??
**unless He's really God**
or Not really dead!
In case you don't know,Leon, God is immortal and incapable of dieing!
He sent His Son to die and He really did die,that's why He needed a resurrection.
Do you see it now???
---1st_cliff on 2/3/12


Scott, 'Firstborn' Greek prototokos, means 'first in rank, pre-eminent one, heir.' It can be used to describe the one born first, but is obviously not limited to the literal meaning.

David was the lastborn son of Jesse but God calls him 'firstborn' Psalm 89:27, because of his preeminence. Ephraim was not Joseph's firstborn (Manasseh was) but Ephraim was called 'firstborn' (Jeremiah 31:9) again because of his preminent position.

In dealing with 'firstborn' as applied Jesus if we continue reading Colossians we see He is not a creature but God the Creator of everything ever created whether on earth of in heaven. The preeminent one indeed.
---Warwick on 2/3/12


David, that you would say the inclusion of 'other' in Colossians 1:16,17 does not change the meaning is deceitful.

As written in your Kingdom Interlinear this text clearly shows the Lord Jesus Christ is the Creator of everything, thefefore God. The spurious addition of 'other' occurs to push the idea that the Lord Jesus is Himself part of the created order therefore not Creator God! A total difference, and one of the deceptions which confirms the JW's as a perfidious cult. The same heresy as taught by Arius long ago.

It is most likely Paul wrote this to contradict the Gnostic idea "that Jesus was the first of many other created intermediaries between God and men" Bruce Metzger Theology Today.
---Warwick on 2/3/12


Colossians 1:15...modify[ing] the meaning- Warmarc

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." NIV

Question (asked repeatedly)- What is the word for "over" found in the Greek Text?


Oh, I almost forgot...take your time.
---scott on 2/3/12


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"Lee, Jn.10.18.says He had 'authority to be raised from death 'This command I received from My Father!'
No dead person can raise himself unless he's not really dead. End of argument!"

---1st_cliff on 2/2/12

That's hokum Cliff! No dead person can raise Himself unless He is really God!!!
---Leon on 2/3/12


Mark V, You continually say "You don't believe in scripture" which is not true,
Do you throw the baby out with the bath water?
I question some but then so should you!
You just can't shake this trinity thing!
At His baptism God said "this is my Son in whom I'm well pleased"
He's telling the world that he's pleased with Himself????
"Not my will but Your will" means not my will but my will?? Mark really!
---1st_cliff on 2/3/12


The meaning of Colossians 1:15-17 remains the same with or without [other]. The word 'other' may or may not be used which is why NWT places the word in brackets. Fact remains, Jesus remains subordinate to his Father Jehovah God even at Colossians chapter 1.

Jesus is the 'image' of his Father. Jesus is the 'firstborn' of creation. If firstborn simply means distinguished in relation to those who were created, then why are the Father and the holy spirit not also said to be the 'firstborn' of all creation?

'All things' were created 'through' Jesus (NAS,ASV and Westcott & Hort Greek text), and 'for' Jesus of course by his Father, Jehovah God.

Thus, [other] may or may not be used.
---David8318 on 2/3/12


Bill willa: Putting it that way it's obvious that you have three gods! (a family of gods even?)
Try Deut 6.4.
---1st_cliff on 2/3/12


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God the Father
God the Son and
God the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead.
---anon on 2/3/12


Jesus died, physically, but never changed from being Jesus spiritually.

He raised Himself, while His Father was raising Him, while the Holy Spirit was raising Him.

Haven't you ever done something together as a family with all of you sharing in love to raise something (c:

Someone's on a sickbed, and the person sits up while you and another family member help the person to sit up. It's called sharing in doing something as family (c:

Our Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are family love, except Jesus was not sick (c:
---Bill_willa6989 on 2/3/12


The flesh died. When Jesus raised Himself up, he had a glorified body. Later He appeared unto the disciples through closed doors.

I'm So glad there is No, which Is Man - made apostate trinity teachings involved. Matt.15 v 9.
---Lawrence on 2/3/12


1Cliff, you are right there is no argument that no ordinary person can raise himself from the dead. But Jesus Christ was no ordinary person, He was also God in His divine nature. He had the power. Jesus repeated this phrase twice in these two verses (17,18) indicating that His sacrificial death was not the end. His resurrection followed in demonstration of His Messiahship and deity (Rom. 1:4) His death and resurrection resulted in His ultimate glorification (12:23: 17:5) and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit (7:37-39: Acts 2:16-39).
---Mark_V. on 2/3/12


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1Cliff 2: I know you don't believe Scripture, but I will tell you anyway. (Rom. 1:4) "And declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead"
The Grk. word "declared" from which the English word "horizon" comes, means "to distinguish" Just as the horizon serves as a clear demarcation line, dividing earth and Sky, the resurrection of Jesus Christ clearly divides Him from the rest of humanity, providing irrefutable evidence that He is the Son of God. This title used at least 30 times in the gospels, identifies Jesus Christ as the same in essence as God (John 1:34,49:10:36: 11:27: 19:7: Heb. 1:5).
---Mark_V. on 2/3/12


"Exactly who raised Jesus from the dead?" The Father through His Word, and the power of His Spirit, raised Jesus from the dead.
"Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do, for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner." Jhn 5:19
---Josef on 2/3/12


Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life.
---Eloy on 2/3/12


GOD did...............
---kevin5443 on 2/2/12


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Scott, inserting 'other' (Acts 5:29) explains the meaning. Without 'other' those unfamiliar with Scripture could imagine Peter is not an apostle. However this point does not stand regarding Colossians 1:16,17 where the WTS insertion of 'other' (4 times) does not modify the meaning, but reverses it! As per the Kingdom Interlinear Jesus is the Creator God, obviously not a created being! However your extraBiblical philosophy forces the WTS to corrupt the text or the whitewashed tomb cracks open.

Adding or subtracting words is not problematic of itself, being normal translation practice to convey the meaning better. The problem arises, as it does with the WTS, where they add and subtract words to reverse meanings. This is corrupt!
---Warwick on 2/2/12


Loipos and Acts 5:29

Scott,

I see you've missed my point, completely.

The addition of 'other' in Acts 5:29 is inserted for smoother English. In fact, you could leave the word out and NOTHING in meaning would change. That much is clear.

However, to insert the word 'other' in Colossians 1:16 necessarily alters the meaning, THE THEOLOGICAL MEANING.

Paul, inspired by God's Spirit, chose NOT to place 'loipos' there because he understood, as you do, that it would necessarily alter the intended meaning from Christ being uncreated to created.

The Watchtower has purposely changed scripture. Shame on you!
---Marc on 2/2/12


Lee, Jn.10.18.says He had "authority to be raised from death "This command I received from My Father!"
No dead person can raise himself unless he's not really dead. End of argument!
---1st_cliff on 2/2/12


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