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What Is God's Grace

Is the definition of Grace as some say Jesus death and Resurrection? Or is Grace you have done nothing to deserve salvation from God? What does Scripture say?

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 ---christan on 2/7/12
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NO MARKV,I did not take a word here and phrase there and take several different scriptures out of context to make it say what I wanted it to say.

If you objected to my original comment, YOU are denying the facts that God JUSTIFIES the UNGODLY.

It's one's faith in the Works of Christ that God CAN Justify the UNGODLY DEPRAVED SINNER!

It's given ONLY to those who have the SAME FAITH AS ABRAHAM! Abraham's FAITH was not considered a WORK. Just taking God at His word, Believing God.

Oh the foolishness of God is so much WISER than markv's doctrne will ever be. And THAT is what you have a problem with! Saving those WHO simply BELIEVE!


NEITHER could the PHARISEES!YOU'RE NO DIFFERENT!
---kathr4453 on 4/1/12


Christan: In short, mercy is what loving God gives us when we deserve far less. Grace is what loving God gives us because we can never deserve (earn or merit) it.
---Leon on 4/1/12


//God can only Justify a sinner based solely on the BLOOD OF CHRIST. We are Justified by HIS BLOOD and saved by HIS LIFE.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
---lee1538 on 4/1/12


Kathr, Here again,

"Jesus Christ is God"

You suggest God's grace is not the same as Christ grace. That "God" did not graciously saved us.
"But "God" who is rich in mercy, because of "His" great love with which "He" loved "us" (believers) even when we were dead in trespasses, made "us" alive together with Christ" The Father and the Spirit (God). "by grace you have been saved and raised us up together and made "us" seat together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus that in the ages to come "He" might show the exceeding riches of "His grace" toward us in Christ Jesus."
---Mark_V. on 4/1/12


MarkV, you certainly are not suggesting God PASSED OVER Christ work on the cross that God saves apart from Jesus Christ???

SO what exactly are you saying??????

I say scripture tells us:

God can only Justify a sinner based solely on the BLOOD OF CHRIST. We are Justified by HIS BLOOD and saved by HIS LIFE.

There is salvattion in NO OTHER.

If you deny Christ came in the FLESH, denying salvation and reconciliation, and mediation through the MAN Christ Jesus, you are anti-christ.
---kathr4453 on 4/1/12




Acts 15:11
But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


Romans 5:15
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, WHICH IS BY ONE MAN, JESUS CHRIST, hath abounded unto many.
---kathr4453 on 4/1/12


2 Corinthians 8:9
For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

MEANING THIS:

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour, that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
---kathr4453 on 4/1/12


1 Peter 5:10
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.


Galatians 2:20-21

I am Crucified with Christ, it is no longer I that Live, but Christ that lives in me. And the life that I NOW live in the flesh I live by the faith of the only begotten Son who loved me and gave Himself for me.

I DO NOT MAKE VOID THE GRACE OF GOD, FOR IF RIGHTEOUSNESS CAME BY THE LAW, OR GOD'S GOOD HUMOR, OR A HEAVENLY LOTTO CHRIST DIED IN VAIN!

WHICH Grace are you saved by?
---kathr4453 on 4/1/12


Kathr, here is a Truth,

"Jesus Christ is God"


Heretics don't believe. Here God's grace,
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of "God" being justified freely by "His grace" through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Whom "God" set forth as a propitiation by His blood through faith, to demonstrate "His" righteousness, because in "His" forbearance "God" had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the prsent time "His" righteousness, that "He" might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus"
---Mark_V. on 4/1/12


We do know John tells us, The Law came by Moses, and GRACE and truth came by Jesus Christ.

We know no one is saved under teh Law.

SO we also know Salvation came by Jesus Christ. CAME BY would have to mean and include His Birth death and resurrection.

Christan, are you suggesting that GRACE did not come by Jesus Christ??? but by God's good humor??

Your question has problems too. You are suggesting salvationn is given apart from Jesus Christ?

Scripture clearly supports GRACE came by Jesus Christ, not by some heavenly lotto where your name got picked.
---kathr4453 on 3/31/12




Lee, I have pointed out many consequences of your nonGlobal flood belief.That you fail to attempt any explanation speaks volumes.

Consider the highest mountain near your area and explain how flood waters could rise above it and be limited to a local area?

In Genesis 8:21 God says "never again will I destroy all living creatures as I have done." If the flood of Noah was not global (as you say)God has lied because massive NonGlobal floods are common. In Australia destructive floodwaters are covering an area the size of the UK and Ireland. But in your belief God must have been saying He would never have a nonGlobal flood again!

These 2 points alone show the fallacy of your nonBiblical belief. How do you answer them
---Warwick on 2/15/12


Grace , yes we live in the dispensation of grace,Grace means unmerited favor, undeserving,its a gift , grace in the soul is a new life for the believer,its not the works of righteousness which we have done.its by grace Jesus is grace the very Spirit of grace we receive Jesus we receive grace.
---lee_holloway on 2/14/12


---lee1538 on 2/13/12
There are two goats choosen ONE for the lord and one for the scapegoat ( english translation)

The Goat which is the Lord 's Goat is killed for the sins of the people as Jesus was. Then an atonement is made for the sins of the people with the lord's goat. It is only AFTER the peoples sins have been atoned for that the scapegoat is used. It is never killed for peoples sins

The scapegoat is taken into the wilderness so that the LORD can deal with him

Leviticus 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
---francis on 2/13/12


Lee this is not what you originally wrote.

You said SDA official policy holds Satan as their redeemer.

As you show this is not from SDA doctrine but from a book The Great Controversy.

Nonetheless from my reading of the pages you noted I see that Jesus removes the sin of the people by His blood. That those who repent and in faith accept what Jesus has done will be saved. And that Satan will be judged and bear the penalty for His sin in rebellion against God, and for leading Adam into sin.

This does not make Satan the SDA Redeemer.
---Warwick on 2/13/12


Warwick -//you made the extraordinary claim Adventists hold Satan as their redeemer.


WHO BEARS OUR SINS?

EGW: SATAN "It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. ... Christ will place all these sins upon Satan, ... so Satan, ... will at last suffer the full penalty of sin" (Great Controversy, p. 422, 485, 486).

BIBLE: JESUS "He himself (Jesus Christ) bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness, by his wounds you have been healed" (1 Peter 2:24).
---lee1538 on 2/13/12


Lee, you made the extraordinary claim Adventists hold Satan as their redeemer. Despite being defamatory it is also nonsense. I have twice asked you to show from SDA literature that you are correct, or admit you are wrong. That you have not supplied anything to support your ridiculous view is conclusive proof you have none. We are left with the knowledge you lied, again!

If you have not lied it should be easy for a man such as you to prove it.
---Warwick on 2/12/12


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Thanks for admitting that Adventists are held guilty of all the law if they sin in any of the law (James 2:10).
---lee1538 on 2/10/12
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

You mean it is sin only for SDA if they commit adultery or murder. And for the rest of professing christian is is what?

I am just trying to understand you. Can other professing christians commit adultery and murder without it being a sin?

CraigA Can we agree to just let this go?
---francis on 2/10/12


---CraigA on 2/10/12
OK let me give you an easier one

Go back through the posts in this blog, who started talking about the law?

Go through all the blogs, who writes blogs about the law?
---francis on 2/10/12


Francis //Does this not apply to you also?
Does it only apply to SDA.

Thanks for admitting that Adventists are held guilty of all the law if they sin in any of the law (James 2:10).

Now if you were to go a step higher you would see that the righteous must live by faith (Romans 1:17, Gal. 3:11) as the law can never make one righteous nor gain you favor with God.

Ga 3:12 But the law is not of faith, rather "The one who does them shall live by them."


Our works of the law if apart from the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives, can be no more than filthy rags.
---lee1538 on 2/10/12


We are accountable for breaking the law which is why we have to depend on Grace and the work of the HOLY SPIRIT in bringing us to a new life. Where instead of running from GOD we are running to Him for He is our Saviour.

When we Love GOD we want to act in love toward Him. Which is why we understand how the frist commandments operate in our lives.
---Samuel on 2/10/12


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Only Yashua Ha Maschiach died for all humanity to give an opportunity for salvation,not Jesus. You must be literally be born again to have that opportunity. Even Nicodemus understood what Yashua was saying to him. " Born again spirit filled " in this life is a deception. You are not saved by works, only Yahweh's grace. As for the resurrection. Yashua was crusified on a Wednesday and rose before the close of the sabbath as Mary proved as she went down to the grave before the first day of the week. After all Yahshua created the sabbath, he was God before he was the savior. Gods law never changes. It's not his nature. Sunday worship is pagen. The name Jesus is from pagen gods. The savior plainly said my people will know be by my name.
---Neptune0461 on 2/10/12


---CraigA on 2/10/12
So you have no post where I ever said that I use the sabbath to determine is one is saved, and you have not one scripture that says Jesus is the sabbath.

The bible points out MANY shadows:
1 Corinthians 5:7 Christ our passover
Hebrews 9:11 Christ being come an high priest
Hebrews 10:20 the veil.. his flesh,
Not to mention the I AM ( BREAD, LIGHT, WATER,)

But NOT ONE single scriptures says or suggests that jesus Christ has become the 7th day of the week or the sabbath, or the 4th commandment.

THEN:
Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth..from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

SHADOWS IN THE NEW EARTH?
---francis on 2/10/12


You need to remember that if you break any one of the laws, you are held accountable for all of them. That is what James 2:10 says.
---lee1538 on 2/10/12

Does this not apply to you also?
Does it only apply to SDA.

I guess it does, since the law of God only applies to God children who:
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
---francis on 2/10/12


francis//Everyone who is genuinely sorry for OF THE LAW) repents and is determined hence forth to sin no more.
---
We await your confession since you break the Sabbath by lighting a fire in your home on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:3.

You need to remember that if you break any one of the laws, you are held accountable for all of them. That is what James 2:10 says.

But we as Christians are not under the law but under grace in which we have become children of our Father God who cares, disciplines and guides us conforming us to the likeness of His Son Jesus.
---lee1538 on 2/10/12


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While Adventists believe that they can become righteous through obedience to law and thus merit eternal salvation, ---lee1538 on 2/10/12

Do you know what the biggest problem with this lie is?

That other people who call themselve christian donot say anything baout it

Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Someone here who clals himself christian shoul say that yu are lying
---francis on 2/10/12


//ALL christians denomination beleive that a christian obeys the ten commandments.

While Adventists believe that they can become righteous through obedience to law and thus merit eternal salvation, those denominations that adhere to the Word of Truth, preach that the righteous live by faith, not by law. Romans 1:17, Gal. 3:11.

It is apparently that Adventism does not recognize others as being Christians since they do not observe the 10 commandments especially the Jewish Sabbath. The 10 commandments are the ministry of death & condemnation (2 cor. 3:7,9).

Sorry but I think you will find that many of this forum believe many Adventists (not all) are truly blind spiritually.
---lee1538 on 2/10/12


"Salvation is all of graceand not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the ten commandments."

No other Christian denomination accepts that statement.
---lee1538 on 2/9/12
ALL christians denomination beleive that a christian obeys the ten commandments.

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Everyone who is genuinely sorry for his sin ( TRANGRESSION OF THE LAW) repents and is determined hence forth to sin no more.
---francis on 2/10/12


Francis go read Hebrews 3,4 and Colossians 2.


Do you not see that you are obsessed with the law? Yes the law is good, but it does not now nor did it ever make any man righteous because we are all under sin!

God gave it to us to prove us guilty and show us our need for salvation. That was its purpose.

We obey his law now NOT to gain righteousness. If we can still do that then Jesus died for nothing. We obey it now out of love instead of fear of condemnation.
---CraigA on 2/10/12


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Tommy8976, Yes in a PERFECT world, Justification and sanctification SHOULD happen together.

What you might not grasp is, one is out POSITION before God, the other is our POSSESSION as we grow in the grace and knowlege of Jesus Christ becoming OVERCOMERS. It's all there for the taking, only not everyone TAKES what is theirs to take.

We BECOME victorious on a day to day, as Paul said I DIE DAILY.

Just read the 7 letters in Revelations...Jesus was addressing Christians He said needed to MOVE ON TO OVERCOMERS.

---kathr4453 on 2/10/12


//SHOW THE POST where i use the sabbath to determine who is saved.

It was implied when you quoted from the SDA Fundamental Beliefs #19

"Salvation is all of graceand not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the ten commandments."

No other Christian denomination accepts that statement.
---lee1538 on 2/9/12


The problem dear Sir is that you use the Sabbath to determine if a person is saved or not. ---CraigA on 2/9/12

SHOW THE POST where i use the sabbath to determine who is saved

In all honesty many people here see you as weak in the faith because you havent yet come to the realization that Christ IS our Sabbath.
---CraigA on 2/9/12
SHOW THE SCRIPTURE that says " christ is our sabbath"
---francis on 2/9/12


Gradual santification:The HUGE Problem with this teaching is it's LACK of support in the Bible. Scripture Clearly teaches that in initial Repentance the Old man is Crucified with Christ, once and for all, NOT to be repeated, the body of sin Done away with and the bondage broken. Since no 'inbred' sin exists the Mortal body is able to Serve God PURE of heart in the Power of the Spirit. Sanctification and Justification happen simultaneously, then Real Growth can begin as the New man is Born and the body purged of all defilement and overflow of wickedness.
---Tommy8976 on 2/9/12


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//The problem dear Sir is that you use the Sabbath to determine if a person is saved or not. That is putting the LAW above Christ. You cannot do that unless you want God to judge YOU on the law instead of Christ.

I would love to see Francis or even Jerry or any of the other children of Hagar comment on this.
---lee1538 on 2/9/12


if God is working in Your Heart today,is that not HIS Grace?
if God is Resting in Your Heart today,is that not HIS Mercy?
---kevin5443 on 2/9/12


--Have you ever read in any SDA literature that SDA keep the law in an effort to be saved?
No we keep the law because we are saved. Because we understand and appreciate God sending his Son to die because we did not keep the law.
--=Francis

The problem dear Sir is that you use the Sabbath to determine if a person is saved or not. That is putting the LAW above Christ. You cannot do that unless you want God to judge YOU on the law instead of Christ.

In all honesty many people here see you as weak in the faith because you havent yet come to the realization that Christ IS our Sabbath. I dont judge you for it. I believe you are saved, you just lack understanding.
---CraigA on 2/9/12


Seems that most of Israel will not get to see heaven.
Prosperity will only be to those only to the faithful remnant, but wrath to those who oppose the Lord. (Isa. 68:14-18) "Worldwind..flames of fire" That the wrath of God will come to the rebels is expressed in language describing the end-time judgment (29:6). The slain will be many who fight against the Lord when He comes to establish His kingdom will die (34:6,7: Rev. 19:21) "Sanctify themselves and purify themselves" (v.17) here sanctification and purification for right purposes are right, but when done for purposes of idol worship, will draw judgment from the One true God. They will not be saved, but consumed together says the Lord.
---Mark_V. on 2/9/12


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Romans 8:2-4
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
---kathr4453 on 2/9/12


This section speaks of the restoration of Israel as Israel will come to know its Messiah.
---lee1538 on 2/9/12


FABULOUS LeeJ, this IS to Israel, also proving God NEVER divorced or cast away His Chosen People Israel!
---kathr4453 on 2/9/12



No isaiah 66:22-24 talks about the fate of the wicked and the righteous.

The righteous will be in the new earth coming to worship God every sabbath, while the wicked will be destroyed and their destruction will be witnessed by the righteous

Malachi 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
---francis on 2/9/12


Isaiah 66:23-25 As surely as my new heavens and earth will remain, so will you always be my people,with a name that will never disappear, says the LORD. All humanity will come to worship me from week to week and from month to month. And as they go out, they will see the dead bodies of those who have rebelled against me.

Why would there be dead bodies in the new earth?

This section speaks of the restoration of Israel as Israel will come to know its Messiah.
---lee1538 on 2/9/12


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Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world,

Seems to me that based on the word of God, that grace is also given to the believer to obey the law, in addition to eternal life
---francis on 2/9/12


The LAW showed sin, it didn't overcome sin.

So GRACE that inables one to live a Godly life is found in Christ's death and resurrection...

"Shallwe continue to SIN that GRACE may abound? God Forbid DON'T You KNOW that as many as were baptized into Christ were baptized into His death..THAT THE BODY OF SIN is DESTROYED.
---kathr4453 on 2/9/12


Then I would....kindly.. .explain to them that Jesus Christ IS our Sabbath and that former laws were a shadow of things to come ---CraigA on 2/9/12
They have seen that the bible says:
1 Corinthians 5:7 Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
John 6:35 I am the bread of life
Hebrews 9:11 Christ being high priest

But they have not seen where it says "christ is our sabbath day." they would surely ask for the scripture

ALSO
Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth,
Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD
they would ask why SHADOW and CHRIST in new earth?
---francis on 2/9/12


francis //Seems to me that based on the word of God, that grace is also given to the believer to obey the law, in addition to eternal life
---
The difference you have with other Christians is whether all OT laws are applicable to the Church today. There is no support in the the NT nor in the teachings of the early church for that view.

Also your view 'commandment' always must mean '10 commandments' has no support either in context or with any theologian today.

You force an interpretation based on your denominational view the church became corrupted, that they lost the truth and God had to send Adventists to reform the church.

That is the same view as held by other cults - Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.
---lee1538 on 2/9/12


Grace to the Adventist as well as other Sabbaterians is simply a provision that enables them to observe the law ---lee1538 on 2/8/12

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world,

Seems to me that based on the word of God, that grace is also given to the believer to obey the law, in addition to eternal life
---francis on 2/9/12


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--However, the Adventist would be very quick to tell you that if you were a Christian you would observe the Jewish Sabbath.---

Then I would....kindly.. .explain to them that Jesus Christ IS our Sabbath and that former laws were a shadow of things to come and they were all fulfilled in Jesus Christ, just as Colossians teaches us.

So zealous of the law that they miss the mark and stumble over righteousness through faith.... just as the Jews did. Now they are blind because of it.
---CraigA on 2/9/12


However, the Adventist would be very quick to tell you that if you were a Christian you would observe the Jewish Sabbath.
---lee1538 on 2/8/12

This is not just what adventist would say. It is what GOD COMMANDS

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
---francis on 2/8/12


Tommy //No, please dont acuse me of something you dont know, I am not an SDA.

Thank you and God bless. Now I can see where you are coming from. I was there once when I was frustrated with what I saw in the churches. However, I found that I needed to feed myself with what I found in the Christian bookstores and at the same time, try to help those in need. Some of my ministries were outside the church proper.
---lee1538 on 2/8/12


CraigA//Adventists, the Law wont save you.
FAITH in Christ is what saves you. Faith in Gods promises thru Jesus Christ.
---
However, the Adventist would be very quick to tell you that if you were a Christian you would observe the Jewish Sabbath.

And that you really do not know Jesus and will have a surprise awaiting you.

Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

And what greater iniquity could you have in not observing the Sabbath? (unless you were to eat pork bacon with your breakfast!)
---lee1538 on 2/8/12


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No, please dont acuse me of something you dont know, I am not an SDA, I stand aloof of all the false teachings coming out of the churches today, I just read my bible and obey it,This working dynamic faith, is a living, breathing, obedient faith, that produces a pure heart, and spirit filled life, that is required to be saved, these works or deeds of faith, prove we have been transformed into a new creation, by walking in obedience to the word of God, not making faith out to be a works of the law,
---Tommy8976 on 2/8/12


Adventists, the Law wont save you.
FAITH in Christ is what saves you. Faith in Gods promises thru Jesus Christ.
---CraigA on 2/8/12
Have you ever read in any SDA literature that SDA keep the law in an effort to be saved?
No we keep the law because we are saved. Because we understand and appreciate God sending his Son to die because we did not keep the law.

We are saved by Grace through faith.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith?

Romans 6:1 Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Romans 6:15 shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace?
---francis on 2/8/12


Adventists, the Law wont save you. (look at the law abiding Jews who are now blind)

Calvinists, election wont save you (look at the "elect" Jews who are now blind)

FAITH in Christ is what saves you. Faith in Gods promises thru Jesus Christ.
---CraigA on 2/8/12


The main thrust of Calvin's theology is that God is a sovereign God and can do whatever He wishes with His creation.---lee1538 on 2/8/12


lee1538, God's sovereignty is based on God's PROMISES and His WORD.

For one, God cannot go against his Word.

Therefore if one cannot find in His word this or that, one can not just make up anything they want doctrinally and state...God's sovereignty can do anything He wants.

It's the WORD of God that is sovereign, and the Covenants of God that are sovereign.

God just CAN'T call Nineveh His CHOSEN elect people when He stated Israel was/is. God never made a Covenant with Gentiles PERIOD!

KNOW the Covenants people and RIGHTLY divide the Word of Truth!

---kathr4453 on 2/8/12


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On the day of atonement a lamb was slain and BLOOD was sprinkled on the mercy seat.

Without the sheding of blood there is no forgivness of Sin, or mercy or compassion etc.

OT Saints were COVERED until Jesus Christ shed His Blood, opening the way to the Mercy seat in Heaven.

You cannot separate Grace from Mercy!
---kathr4453 on 2/8/12


JackB- //Is God self-seeking?

He has created everything for His glory.

//Does He rejoice in condemnation rather than repentance and forgiveness?

Like the potter with clay, He creates some for noble use, others for mandune, and even some He disposes of.

//Does He withhold love from some while requiring us to love everyone?

He 'hated' Esau and loved Jacob, He used Pharoah as a tool for His own glory and purpose.

//Did Jesus die for only some when scripture says He died for "all men" and the "whole world"?

Mt 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

"for many" does not mean 'for all'.
---lee1538 on 2/8/12


---lee1538 on 2/8/12
GRACE is for more than just salvation:
Acts 14:26 GRACE of God FOR THE WORK
Acts 20:32 GRACE TO BUILD YOU UP,
Ephesians 2:8 grace given, that I should preach
Hebrews 12:28 grace, whereby we may serve / OBEY God
---francis on 2/8/12


In English, the same word can have different meanings, even exact opposite meanings, like how a citation can be a speeding ticket or it can be an award for a good thing someone has done.

So . . . I'd say grace has different meanings, in the Bible.

There is God's favor, from a distance, of Him smiling on us.

There is the death and burial and resurrection of Jesus, as God's grace toward us.

There is how He uses circumstances for our good, favoring us but doing us good especially while we obey so we are in the flow of how things are for good.

And in us His grace is His own personal action of His love effecting us, curing us to become > "as He is, so are we in this world." (in 1 John 4:17)
---Bill_willa6989 on 2/8/12


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Looks like we have another one of those Ellen White fan in our midst with Tommy8976.

Grace to the Adventist as well as other Sabbaterians is simply a provision that enables them to observe the law (especially selected OT law) and thus merit eternal salvation. We can see that with Tommy's definition of grace.
---lee1538 on 2/8/12


The main thrust of Calvin's theology is that God is a sovereign God and can do whatever He wishes with His creation. --Lee

And indeed He CAN do what he wishes. Now you have to ask yourself if the things you say that He does with man goes against his very nature as defined in scripture.

Is God self-seeking? Does He rejoice in condemnation rather than repentance and forgiveness? Does He withhold love from some while requiring us to love everyone? Did Jesus die for only some when scripture says He died for "all men" and the "whole world"?
---JackB on 2/8/12


Tommy, in the context of (Titus 2:11-14), the Grace of God here is not simply the divine attribute of Grace, but "Jesus Christ Himself, Grace incarnated," who is God's supremely gracious gift to fallen mankind (John 1:14). "to all man" this does not teach universal salvation, because "mankind" is translated as "man" in (v.3,4) to refer to humanity in general, as a category, not to every individual. He covers every sin of everyone who believes (John 3:16-18: 1 Tim. 2:5,6: 4:10: 1 John 2:2).
---Mark_V. on 2/8/12


Tommy8976//Lee, are you a Calvinist? If you are then I can see why your doctrine is off!
---
As I tried without success to tell Kathy,I agree with Calvin only to the extent that his views are totally supported by scripture.

The main thrust of Calvin's theology is that God is a sovereign God and can do whatever He wishes with His creation. I find it hard to believe some would dispute that much.
---lee1538 on 2/8/12


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God's grace is....God giving us something we don't deserve.
---shira4368 on 2/8/12


Lee, are you a Calvinist? If you are then I can see why your doctrine is off!
---Tommy8976 on 2/8/12


Tommy8976 - note that in Ephesians 2:8, it uses the past tense - you have been saved.

While true that God works within the individual for effectual calling, that alone makes salvation a gift by His grace.

And I agree that not everyone is called.
---lee1538 on 2/8/12


Scott,
Martin Luther was a reprobate false teacher, no such thing as the great exchange,substitution, no sin was transfered to Christ, He died as a sin offering, Heb9-14, to ransom us from the corrupting infuence of sin. mark 10-45.
---Tommy8976 on 2/8/12


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Natural sin, Substitution, Moral Transfer, Imputed Righteousness and Eternal security are NOT taught in the Bible, nor were they entertained by the Pre-Augustinian writers of the Christian Faith. At best, these Notions are based on pure Conjecture. Study the record and discover that each of these tenets were INVENTED at some Point in History LONG after the Early Church passed away. Most of the
---Tommy8976 on 2/8/12


God grace is his love to us, that whereas we deserve death for our sins, He took our death and gave us life.
---francis on 2/8/12


Lee,
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Thus when Paul wrote Ephesians 2:8-10 the works he is referring to are works of the flesh or works of the law which we are not saved by. He is most definitely NOT negating obedient faith. We are saved by the effectual working of God on our heart which we voluntarily put to use by a working faith. If we are disobedient then, we simply receive the GRACE OF GOD to no effect!
---Tommy8976 on 2/8/12


repentance has been redefined to simply mean confess and admit you are a sinner, and faith has been redefined to simply mean trust.
Jud1:4there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now the reason that works done apart from God are vain (works of the flesh/law) is that they only serve to clean the outside of the cup. God wants the inside of the cup cleansed.
---Tommy8976 on 2/8/12


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Both, The payment for sin is death. Jesus's death imputed (transferred) your sin onto Him. Thus His death on the cross is grace like the sacrificial lambs in OT. The second statement is also true that your good works do not cover or wash away that sin because only death can wash away sin. Thus when Jesus says your sins are forgiven they are not gone but transferred to God. The resurrection showed that Jesus never sinned personally thus death could not hold him and thus eternal life and now that we (christians) have transferred our sin to God we have eternal life like Jesus. Martin Luther called this the Great Exchange.
---Scott1 on 2/8/12


What Tommy said.
---JackB on 2/8/12


Tommy8976//Grace isnt unmerited favor, or a covering for ongoing sin and disobedience, the above scripture sums it up well, Gods grace is the power He gives us to live soberly, righteously and godly in this present age. Through an obedient repentant heart.
---
Then what exactly is grace as given in Eph. 2:8

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God,
---lee1538 on 2/7/12


Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 teaching us that having denied ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously and godly, in this present world,
Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope, and the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Tit 2:14 who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from all iniquity and purify to Himself a special people, zealous of good works.
Grace isnt unmerited favor, or a covering for ongoing sin and disobedience, the above scripture sums it up well, Gods grace is the power He gives us to live soberly, righteously and godly in this present age. Through an obedient repentant heart.
---Tommy8976 on 2/7/12


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Grace is God giving us what we do not deserve.
---JIM on 2/7/12


Easton's Bible dictionary =

2. Favour, kindness, friendship #Ge 6:8 18:3 19:19 2Ti 1:9
3. Gods forgiving mercy #Ro 11:6 Eph 2:5
4. The gospel as distinguished from the law #Joh 1:17 Ro 6:14 #1Pe 5:12
5. Gifts freely bestowed by God, as miracles, prophecy, tongues #Ro 15:15 1Co 15:10 Eph 3:8
6. Christian virtues #2Co 8:7 2Pe 3:18 The glory hereafter to be revealed #1Pe 1:13

It is certainly more than a provision that enables one to obey the law and thus merit salvation as in Adventism.

Grace being the unmerited favor of God has everything to do with our salvation. Eph. 2:8
---lee1538 on 2/7/12


grace is no matter what god does not look at the out word man but the inward hart the more you walk with love for the lord our god the more you don't want to make wrong choices but it is a process
---curti on 2/7/12


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