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Can You See God

Can you see God the Father and talk to Him one on one?

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Origen, (some would argue- the greatest and most knowledgeable scholar of the NT Greek) explained John 14:9:

"But ... God is invisible .... Whereas, on the contrary, God, the Father of Christ, is said to be seen, because `he who sees the Son,' he says, `sees also the Father.' This certainly would press us hard [to explain], were the expression not understood by us more correctly of understanding, and not of seeing. For he who has understood the Son will understand the Father also."

P. 277, vol. iv, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Eerdmans Publishing.
---scott on 3/14/12


The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, vol. 4, p. 380, tells us:

"What is seen in a vision is a revelation from God. Statements that human beings have seen or will see God Himself do not refer to a perception of a physical aspect of God by human physical senses but a process of coming to some amount of understanding of God, often just a simple realization of His greatness or some other aspect of His nature, either by a revelatory vision (Isa. 6:15, Ezk. 1:26-28), or by their acquaintance with Jesus Christ (Jn 14:9, cf. 1:18)." - Eerdmans, 1991.
---scott on 3/13/12


Their contradiction-

Those arguing for a literal 'seeing' of God couldn't hide the elephant in the room- the inspired, declarations that "No man hath seen God at any time..." (John 1:18) Not just those persecuting Christ, as Warwick argued, but "No man," "No one," (Ex 33:20), "Not...anyone ...except [Jesus]." John 6:46

Mark_V argued that "They had no spiritual eyes or ears" and yet never addressed how (if true) no man, ever...had "spiritual eyes or ears", or can according to Ex 33:20.

"Seeing" God through angelic representatives, visions, etc, harmonizes with verses that clearly say no man has seen God.
---scott on 2/27/12


"Young's..."

If you had Young's you would know that I have already cited the location on 2/14/12. It appears in "Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation".

And If you had Young's you would know that there is no pagination on that particular page (at least in my copy). However the following page is numbered: iiix.

"7. The language of the MESSENGER frequently glides into that of the SENDER..."

"8. What a SERVANT says or does is ascribed to the MASTER..."

Of course, Marc dismissed Gesenius (the father of Hebrew Lexicography) because he was a Jew (2/15/12). Perhaps Young will be dismissed because he was a hoarder or had way too many cats.
---scott on 2/25/12


Scott if you really do have the Youngs reference handy then supply it to Marc. Otherwise we may think you have done more unreferenced cut and pasting!
---Warwick on 2/24/12




Ex 24:9-11- Warwick

(Vs 10) "and [there was] under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone."

So was the ground literally paved with sapphires?

"No one has ever seen God." 1 John 4:12 NIV

"[God dwells] in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see." 1 Tim 6:16

Strongs to "See" or "Behold" can carry the meaning of "perceive", in "vision", etc.

"Seen me [the Son]...you've seen the Father."

Your literal interpretation of this verse has outed you as a Modalist. This is a heresy rejected by orthodox Trinitarians.
---scott on 2/24/12


"Got the reference to Young handy?- Marc

Yes I do.
---scott on 2/24/12


Scott you repeat the blog question "Can you see God the Father and talk to Him one on one?"

This is answered by Exodus 24:9-11 "Then Moses and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up, and they saw the God of Israel. And he did not lay his hand on the chief men of the people of Israel, they beheld God, and ate and drank."

and John 14:8,9 "Philip said to him, Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us. Jesus said to him, Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father?"
---Warwick on 2/24/12


Scott, you did not answer my question. Whats up with that? Cannot answer it? I thought so.
Concerning what is on my screen, I see it clearly. And since I believe Christ is eternal and divine in nature, I answer my question with the Lord Jesus Christ.
You on the otherhand cannot answer the question I gave you because you don't believe by faith Jesus Christ is God eternal. If you did, you would have the Truth. No one can see God the Spirit, but they could see the Son who is God, in the Old and New Testament.
---Mark_V. on 2/24/12


"Jesus...God"- Warwick/Mark_V

I imagine that our displays (computer, phone, pad or pod) read differently. That may answer why we appear to be discussing, at least in part, different topics.

At the top of my screen the topic heading says "Can you see God" (no question mark...which bothers me...but I digress) then the subheading says "Can you see God the Father and talk to Him one on one?"

Perhaps your screens say something about the deity of Christ or the trinity.

I've not discussed either of those topics on this thread. If a simple exchange about 'seeing God' presents some sort of challenge or dilemma on a peripheral level, start another thread. Otherwise let's stick to the topic.
---scott on 2/23/12




"You have not answered me." Mark_V

Any one with any interest in this "discussion" (yaaawn probably best describes it) can scroll below to see which of us asked the other question(s) first...questions that were never answered.
---sctt on 2/23/12


Scott,

Got the reference to Young handy?
---Marc on 2/23/12


Scott, strange of you to refer to John 1:18 as this reveals Jesus as "the only God" who is definitely visible.

John 5:37 records Jesus conversation with Jews who were persecuting Him. These people had not met with or listened to God. Had they done so they would have welcomed Jesus as their Messiah.

Exodus 33:20? But exodus 24:10 says they saw the God of Israel!! You have a contradiction there don't you. But maybe you cannot see it?

John 6:46? But in John 14:9 Jesus says seeing Him is seeing the Father!

You cannot understand this because you are unable to comprehend God is spirit and Jesus is God (spirit) enfleshed: God who can be seen.
---Warwick on 2/23/12


Scott, you have not answered me. You seem to have great contradictions in Scripture and will never be able to reconcile the passages with your theology because you do not believe Jesus Christ is God, the Second person of the Trinity. The Second Person is the visible God of the New Testament. Neither the Father nor the Spirit is characteristically revealed in bodily and visible form. While the Fathers voice is heard from heaven, and the Holy Spirit is seen descending in the form of a dove, Christ, the Second Person, is the full manifestation of God in visible form. it is also the reason Scripture tells us God has been seen in both the Old and the New Testament.
---Mark_V. on 2/23/12


"You appear to be saying no man has ever seen God. Correct? Warwick

Now you're just trying to flatter me. Attributing the words of God, Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul to me? (Notice "me" is blushing).

"No man hath seen God at any time..." John 1:18

"No one may see me and live." Ex 33:20

"You have neither heard His [the Fathers] voice at any time nor seen His form." John 5:37

"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God, He has seen the Father." John 6:46

"...The King of kings and Lord of lords... whom no man has seen or can see." 1 Tim. 6:15-16
---scott on 2/22/12


Scott, you still have not answered my question. You did a lot of talk and a lot of speculating to no avail, because you were wrong. You claim everyone has spiritual eyes to see and ears to hear. In fact you say that because you think you have them, but you are the one who does not understand spiritual matters. When you speak you speak from the flesh, and the flesh prophets nothing.
"Consider the example of the apostle Paul who said: "I do not run like a man running aimlessly, I do not fight like a man beating the air." 1 Cor 9:26, NIV"
You think you can deceive the Elect but you are wrong. You might deceive some people, but never the elect.
---Mark_V. on 2/22/12


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Scott,you appear to be saying no man has ever seen God. Correct? However Exodus 24:10 says they saw "the God of Israel." And John 14:8-9 Has Phillip asking Jesus to show them the Father. Jesus replies don't you know me Phillip? And that seeing Him is seeing the Father, because they are one God. As Scripture says Jesus is God in the flesh, the living image of God who is spirit.

But you try to defend your erroneous view with a swag of references which do not support your belief.

When your ruse fails you resort to subterfuge!

BTW you still haven't attempted an answer to my questions regarding worship and obesience, and cannibalism. Too hard?
---Warwick on 2/21/12


"I pointed out Moses was not God, or a god, but God's mouthpiece, akin to a prophet, who speaks God's words." Warwick

I have never believed, stated, suggested or argued otherwise.

"You day this is hilarious."Warwick

What I did "day" was to see my comments to Mark_V. In your haste to criticize, neither of you are/were aware that you're making the same argument that I am. Again thank you. Sorry you fail to see the "hilarity", at the very least irony, of that.

Consider the example of the apostle Paul who said: "I do not run like a man running aimlessly, I do not fight like a man beating the air." 1 Cor 9:26, NIV
---scott on 2/21/12


Scott, I pointed out Moses was not God, or a god, but God's mouthpiece, akin to a prophet, who speaks God's words. You day this is hilarious. Therefore it is quite reasonable for me to now understand you believe the messanger becomes the one from whom the message originated. Apparently this is wrong also so just what do you mean?

'Modalism' is a figment of your fecund imagination.

The rest of your blog to me was evasion. Just as you evade answering my questions regarding 'worship' and 'cannibalism.'

You have given certain references to support your case but they don't, as I have shown. That you do not attempt to show my error points to the fact I am not in error.

Duck and weave!
---Warwick on 2/21/12


Scott,

Although a minor point, I'd like to check your reference to Young's. Got a page and edition number handy?
---Marc on 2/21/12


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"Your arguement is that because other passages mention the word "God" the rest which speak of the Lord are wrong." Mark_V

I have no idea what that means and I certainly have not argued for such a strange notion.

Question(s):

Ex 3:2 says: "The angel of Jehovah appeared unto him in a flame of fire..." ASV

But Ex 3:4 (two verses later) says "When Jehovah saw that...God called unto him out of the midst of the bush..."

So who was it, Jehovah himself or an angelic representative speaking on God's behalf?

Is Young's Analytical Concordance wrong when it says: "What a servant says or does is ascribed to the master." Yes or no?
---scott on 2/21/12


"You believe anyone who speaks on God's behalf, e.g. Moses or the prophets isn't speaking the message God gave them, but becomes God!" Warwick

Just because I outed you from your Modalistic closet (BTW how's that working out?) is no reason to attribute such a nonsensical belief to me. I have never said such a thing.

"I checked the Scriptures...they don't support your case" Warwick

Since apparently you have no idea what my "case" is (because you have never taken the time to actually read my comments) of what value is your scriptural commentary that attempts to refute it?

This is called a straw-man argument. You attribute a false premise to me and then argue against it.
---scott on 2/21/12


Warwick, you are right, lets turn this around, and put the questions on Scott. I bet he cannot answer the questions concerning his cultic religion, the founders, their teachings and the false predictions. We have lots of them. We are sick of hearing him question us and us giving him passages after passages, now it his turn.
---Mark_V. on 2/21/12


Scott, apparently you believe anyone who speaks on God's behalf, e.g. Moses or the prophets isn't speaking the message God gave them, but becomes God! Right?

I checked the Scriptures you gave and they don't support your case:

John 1:18 see below.

John 5:37 Jesus uttered these words to Jews who were persecuting Him, saying they had not seen or heard Him nor did His word dwell in them. Good call!

John 6:46 a contradiction? As John 14:9 has Jesus saying seeing Him is seeing the Father!

Judges 13:21 They saw the angel (messenger) of the Lord. However in Exodus 24:10 they saw "the God of Israel" not a messenger.

Hosea 12:3,4 how does this plead your case?

Ditto with Genesis 16:11,13.
---Warwick on 2/21/12


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Scott while you are in a feisty answering mood please explain:

Why did the 1961 NWT command that the angels 'worship' Jesus while the 1971 version downgraded this to 'obeisance.' Which is wrong and why? And who made the mistake.

Plus in the 1960's the WTS said organ transplants were akin to "cannibalism." But today they are no longer "cannibalism" who made the mistake and how?

Take your t-i-m-e. You have so far.
---Warwick on 2/21/12


Scott, I was speaking of how you try to pervert the word of God, by including passages where it is not speaking of God. Your arguement is that because other passages mention the word "God" the rest which speak of the Lord are wrong. But those passages have their own context. By using both you pervert the Truth. Change the Truth to a lie. (Ex. 3:4) is speaking of the Lord Himself. (v.3:6) Here is the Truth. "More He said, I am the God of your father-the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" He never mentioned that He was speaking through anyone. Those passages have a different context, but you conbine them to change the Truth to a lie. We are warned of people like you who teach heretical believes.
---Mark_V. on 2/21/12


"Adding words to the text"- Marc

The topic being discussed is not about adding words or about the deity of Christ but whether or not God has been, or can be, literally seen. Introducing the deity of Christ and "added words" are red herrings, your favorite and incredibly transparent tactic.

You've not addressed any aspect of my argument or even one of the many scriptures that I have presented in support of it.

I won't hold my breath for you to do so. I'll let others, if interested, review the discussion, and decide for themselves if you have in any way made a case that disproves mine.

"You cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." Ex 33:20
---scott on 2/20/12


No not now. When we get to heaven we will be able to do so. But then we will have been resurected in brand new bodies that are not like the ones we have now.

Joseph Smith stated that he got to talk to the three gods Father, son and holy spirit. Which is impossible.

He would have been vaporized by the appearance of the Father alone. Also we do not have three gods. We have one GOD who is three persons. The only one we can see is the Son who is both GOD and man.
---Samuel on 2/20/12


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"At best Moses is a mouthpiece akin to a Prophet. Is Jeremiah God because He speaks on God's behalf? Of course not." Warwick

See comments to Mark_V.

Simply hilarious.
---scott on 2/20/12


Scott,

When you do NOT add words to the text, Exodus 24:9ff PLAINLY says that Moses and the others SAW the God of Israel. The contradiction (i.e. can't see the Father etc) occurs ONLY if the Arian heresy is true i.e. Jesus is not God. That Jesus, John, Paul etc declare Jesus to be fully God means there is no contradiction, which means Moses saw God the Son i.e. Jesus.

Think about it: To save the Watchtower belief that Jesus CAN'T be God, Watchtower must insert words not found in Hebrew to Scripture at Exodus 24:9ff which completely change its meaning.
---Marc on 2/20/12


"Pervert the Word of God..." Mark_V

Perhaps you wouldn't embarrass yourself as often if, rather than launch into your familiar, critical rant, you would actually read what I've posted.

I agree with your understanding of the verses that I've cited. It's precisely the point that I'm making. Thank you.

Uh oh, what are you going to do with the fact that you agree with, and have supported the position, of one of Jehovah's Witnesses? (I won't tell anyone if you won't. It'll be our little secret.)
---scott on 2/20/12


Scott, I can imagine the midnight oil wasted by the gremlin's of the WTS to prove an unproveable case. That they would profer Exodus 4:15,16 shows the oil was wasted! The context is that Moses asked to be relieved of this task saying "I am slow of speech and tongue." Here you present another of your god's this one with a speech impediment. Perhaps another is lame? Moses speaks to Aaron and Aaron conveys this to Pharaoh. At best Moses is a mouthpiece akin to a Prophet. Is Jeremiah God because He speaks on God's behalf? Of course not.

It is ironic you should refer to John 1:18 "No one has ever seen God, the only God, who is at the Fathers side, he has made him known" as this Scripture clearly says Jesus is God.
---Warwick on 2/20/12


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Scott, everyday you try to pervert the Word of God by trying to confuse the passages in your own language. (Ex. 4:15,16) is not saying that Moses was God. Only in your world. (v.14) tells us the what God was saying, "Now you shall speak to him and put the words in his mouth. And I will be with your mouth and with his mouth, and I will teach you what you shall do" He was going to as if God was speaking because they were going to be the words of God coming out of the mouth of Moses.
Second, (Ex. 7:1) is not saying that God made Moses God. He had just spoken in (Ex 4:14) that God's words were going to be in Moses mouth. As if God was speaking. More twisting of the meanings of Scripture. Only heretics play with the Truth.
---Mark_V. on 2/20/12


"A logical consequence..." Marc (1)

No. The logical conclusion is that the angel is not Jehovah but one sent as a representative of Jehovah, who bears his name as a spokesperson. (Ex. 3:2, 4, Gen. 32:24-28, 30, Hosea 12:3, 4, Gen. 31:11, 13, Gen. 16:11, 13, Judges 13:21, 22.)

Even men have served as spokespersons for God have they not?

God told Moses: "Speak to him [Aaron] and put words in his mouth..." "He will speak to the people...and it will be...as if you were God to him. Ex 4:15, 16, NIV

"Jehovah said to Moses, See, I have made thee God to Pharaoh..." Ex 7:1, Darby

Was Moses God or God's representative?

Continued.
---scott on 2/20/12


"A logical consequence..." Marc (2)

I've cited numerous examples of God's angelic representatives (and men) being scripturally viewed (for a specific time and purpose) as "God". You've not presented one refutation or alternate meaning for any of those verses. Ex. 3:2, 4, Gen. 32:24-28, 30, Hosea 12:3, 4, Gen. 31:11, 13, Gen. 16:11, 13, Judges 13:21, 22, Ex 7:1.

Further, your argument leaves you with a glaring contradiction. One that you have not even attempted to address. You say men literally saw God. And yet the words of both God and Christ contradict you. Ex 33:20, John 1:18, John 5:37, John 6:46.

God's word is harmonious and does not contain the contradiction that you've yet to explain.
---scott on 2/20/12


Scott,

Exodus 3:2,4, placing your parsimonious quotations into CONTEXT, as a logical consequence the Angel must be ''the God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob...[the] I AM WHO I AM.'' (vv 6,14). Thus the Angel of verse 2 calls himself God. Is your Watchtower now declaring a mere creature YHWH? Ditto Genesis 16:11. I also see, yet again, you avoid the logic of my argument, preferring to cut and paste from your bank of let's-keep-clear-of-the-actual-discussion quotes.

Again, Exodus 24:9-11: ''Moses [et al] SAW the God of Israel...but God did not lay his hand upon them.'' Note, unlike the New World Mistranslation, there's no need to add heretical meaning-changing words.

Young? More commission of the Fallacy from Authority!
---Marc on 2/18/12


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"What a servant says or does is ascribed to the master." Young's Analytical Concordance

Ex 3:2 "The angel of Jehovah appeared unto him in a flame of fire..." ASV

Ex 3:4 "When Jehovah saw that...God called unto him out of the midst of the bush..."


Hosea 12:3 "He struggled with God." , NIV

Hosea 12:4 "He struggled with the angel..." NIV


Gen 31:11 "The angel of God said to me in the dream, 'Jacob.'"

Gen 31:13 "I am the God of Bethel..." NIV


Gen 16:11 "And the angel of Jehovah said unto her, Behold..." ASV

Gen 16:13 "And she called the name of Jehovah that spake unto her..."
---scott on 2/18/12


Scott, you are right again, it was written long before my mother was born, and that is where she got it from. Yet you still did not answer my question. Why avoid answering? If you are so sound in your believes and so smart as you might think you are, the answer should be simple for you.
---Mark_V. on 2/18/12


"Wolves in sheep's clothes...my mother." Mark_V

Actually Jesus warned about wolves in sheep's clothing long before your mother. (Matt 7:15)

As one wise man once said: "Phrase God." Mark_V, 12/28/11
---scott on 2/17/12


Scott,

Gen 16:13: ''She called the name of YHWH who spoke to her''.

The subject of the relative pronoun 'who' in this non-question construction is directly attached i.e. the preceding YHWH.

'Name of YHWH' is the object of the verb 'to call' but YHWH is the subject of the relative pronoun 'who'. How can 'the name of YHWH' be the object of 'who'? A name is a 'which', not a 'who'.

In other words, she spoke to YHWH.
---Marc on 2/17/12


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Scott, my mother told me to be aware of wolves that come in sheeps clothing who speak of God, but are not of God, for they are not born of the Spirit. So I ask you again, to be sure you are not a wolve,
to answer my question first, and there is a reason why. If you cannot answer my question, what good is to speak to you about spiritual things? It would be foolishness to you what I say. So before I go on, what say you?
---Mark_V. on 2/17/12


"I ask you the same question" Mark_V

Didn't your mother teach you that it's not polite to answer a question with a question? You first.
---scott on 2/17/12


Scott, ""No spiritual eyes or ears...not born of the Spirit." Mark_V
Are you sure that you've really thought this "argument" through?"


I ask you the same question, have you really thought through the arguement that
""yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day."
Were this all these people physically blind and deaf, the blind leading the blind?
I don't think so. Who gives the spiritual eyes to see and ears to hear? God the Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 2/17/12


"No spiritual eyes or ears...not born of the Spirit." Mark_V

Are you sure that you've really thought this "argument" through?

Jesus said "No man hath seen God at any time" You're suggesting that no man, ever had "spiritual eyes of discernment"? The prophets? David, Moses, Noah, the Apostles, none of the inspired writers of the bible?

And God said "No one may see me and live." (Ex 33:20) So not only has no faithful servant of God ever had what your refer to as "Spiritual eyes or ears", no one ever will either. Right?

Again, have you really thought this premise through to a logical, and scriptural conclusion?
---scott on 2/16/12


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"Disanalogous examples" Marc

Really?

You cite Gen 16:13: ''She called the name of YHWH who spoke to her''.

Who spoke to her? 5 verses earlier (vs 7) says "Jehovah's angel found her...and he began to say:..."

Ex 32:30, ''For I have seen God face to face..."

1. 32:20- "No one may see me and live."

2. 33:14- My presence (Heb- Panay. Lit. "my face") will go with you...

Additionally Jehovah did not personally appear to Moses to deliver the Law. "You who received the Law as transmitted by angels..." "It was transmitted through angels by...a mediator." Acts 7:53 & Gal. 3:19 (Also Heb. 2:2)
---scott on 2/16/12


Scott,

I meant Genesis 16:13 and 32:30, not Exodus.
---Marc on 2/16/12


Scott "they saw the God of Israel..he did not lay his hand on the chief men of the people of Israel, they beheld God,..." Exodus 24:10,11.

The references you gave do not say "they saw the God of Israel." They are therefore irrelevant to the discussion.
---Warwick on 2/15/12


Peas, thimbles, smoke and mirrors: Nice try Scott. Throw up disanalogous examples, Angels, dreams to distract us from the text in question. (However, Ex 16:13: ''then she called the name of YHWH who spoke to her'', Ex 32:30, ''For I have seen God face to face and my life is preserved.)

The issue: The New World Mistranslation purposely inserts the words saw [a true vision of] the God of Israel'' to make Exodus 24:10ff say something it never said.

Gesenius was a Rationalist and Jewish, naturally it's not Jesus.

Like Mormons and Christadelphians, a few JWs appeared 1900 years after the Church began and want us to believe THEY, and only THEY, know the truth because God speaks through them alone.
---Marc on 2/15/12


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Scott, I see you don't understand rebirth, to see and hear God spiritually. You gave (John 5:37) and understood nothing. You study in the flesh to argue against the Deity of Christ. He said, "You have neither heard His voice or seen Him" They had no spiritual eyes or ears. Because He says "But you do not have His word abiding in you" They were not born of the Spirit. Go to (Deut. 29:2-4) and read it all. (v.4) says,
"yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day."
They saw what God did in the flesh but spiritually they saw, heard and understood nothing, just like you. You need to be born again of the Spirit to understand Scripture.
---Mark_V. on 2/15/12


"Seeing God" (1)

Frequently, angels sent directly from God and perfectly speaking God's very words to humans are called "God" or "Jehovah": Ex. 3:2, 4, Gen. 32:24-28, 30 and Hosea 12:3, 4, Gen. 31:11, 13, Gen. 16:11, 13, Judges 13:21, 22.

So, seeing the form of one of God's representatives was spoken of as seeing God.

For example, Manoa knew he had spoken with an angel of Jehovah and yet said: "We shall surely die because we have seen God." Judges 13:21, 22 ASV.)

"What a SERVANT says or does is ascribed to the MASTER." Robert Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible, "Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation".
---scott on 2/14/12


"Someone's supposed last-word authority."

And there it is.

You've already dismissed the words of both God and Christ on the topic- ("No one may see me and live." Ex 33:20, "No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son...hath declared him .." John 1:18, "The Father who sent Me...You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form." John 5:37, "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God, He has seen the Father." John 6:46)...

Why wouldn't you dismiss the man that's been referred to as the "father of modern Hebrew Lexicography", Gesenius, as a "supposed" authority?
---scott on 2/14/12


"they saw the God of Israel..he did not lay his hand on the chief men of the people of Israel, they beheld God,..." Exodus 2$:10,11.

If all they saw was a vision of God, something supplied by God why would they comment that God didn't punish them? They obviously saw God. This corresponds with John 14:8,9 where Phillip asks Jesus to show them the Father, as Barnes says he was asking for "outward and visible manifestation of God." Jesus replied "don't you know me." Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." Jesus can say this as He is God in flesh 1 Timothy 3:16. He is Immanuel (God with us) Isaiah 7:14,Matthew 1:23.

See also Isaiah 9:6 Jesus is "...Mighty God, Everlasting Father, ...."
---Warwick on 2/14/12


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Scott,

Unlike you, I don't trip over myself in the rush to conveniently present arguments based solely on someone's supposed last-word authority (hence your preferred cut-and-paste of ''favourable'' encyclopaedias etc as your first, and only, line of defence). Quoting someone's opinion just because it appears to resonate well with yours isn't rational argument.

So, again, I ask you: Why would Moses write that God did not slay them if it were only a vision of God?

Notwithstanding this, what do you think Gesenius meant by ''used especially in a religious sense''? How does this exactly equate to a 'vision'?
---Marc on 2/14/12


"A number of mistakes"- Marc

Your response is amusing and yet not surprising.

Yes, the Hebrew is Chazah (to gaze) not Ruah, (my mistake) but clearly in my post I identified the correct translation provided by Gesenius for "Chazah eth haElohim"="To see God." Ex. 24:11. There, in contrast to seeing something literally, he uses Ex. 24:11 as an example of seeing in a religious sense.

Your argument, If I may remind you, is/was for a literal "seeing" of God at Ex 24:11. Gesenius disagrees with you.

BTW, anyone can Google "Ex 24:11 vision" (without quotes). The 4th link is "A Hebrew and English lexicon...by Gesenius".
---scott on 2/14/12


Scott,

A number of mistakes: (1) from p. 186 the Hebrew you've transliterated does not appear in Gesenius. (2) What you wrote means ''the Spirit of God'' (3) Gesenius wrote, in Hebrew, ''to see God'' (4) the entry is not for 'vision' but the verb 'to see' (5) your cut-and-paste misleads: read Gesenius and he applies 'to see [visions]' to Nu 24:4, not to Ex 24:11.

Once again you avoid my argument: Why would Moses write that God did not slay them if it were only a vision?
---Marc on 2/14/12


So if no one can see God please explain Exodus 24:10,11: ''and they saw the God of Israel...but on the nobles of the children of Israel he did not lay his hand. So they saw saw God''.
---Marc on 2/13/12

JESUS
---francis on 2/13/12


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"Avoided my point."- Marc

You are confusing 'avoiding your point' with 'disagreeing with your point'. They're not the same thing.

You criticized the NWT's use of "vision" at Ex 24:11 and I provided the Lexical allowance for "Vision" as indicated in Strong's Concordance. Your criticism of the NWT in this regard is unfounded.

Additionally Gensenius' ("Hebrew and English Lexicon...") under "VISION" says:

"2. Used especially in a religious sense, e. g. [ruah eth haElohim] to see God, Ex. 24:11, Job 19:26. and is applied particularly to the supernatural visions and internal revelations given to the prophets..."
---scott on 2/13/12


Francis,

So if no one can see God please explain Exodus 24:10,11: ''and they saw the God of Israel...but on the nobles of the children of Israel he did not lay his hand. So they saw saw God''.
---Marc on 2/13/12


Can you see God the Father and talk to Him one on one?
---curtis on 2/7/12
The answer is no

"Blessed they of clean heart, for they will see God. ---Eloy on 2/12/12

You are answering a different question. Your answer is more suited to:
"WILL you see God the Father and talk to Him one on one?"
---francis on 2/13/12


and the one that loves me will be loved of Father of me and I will love that one, and will reveal myself to that one
******

yes and my REVEALING HIMSELF Christ is referring to Gods TRUTH

blessed are those who cannot see YET BELIEVE

demons can transform themselves into the ministers of righteousness

True Believers understand nobody today has SEEN Christ or The Father yet we have FAITH by HIS TRUTH and we are blessed even though we cannot see HIM
---Rhonda on 2/13/12


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francis, THE ANSWER IS YES!
On seeing God, Jesus says: "Blessed they of clean heart, for they will see God. All things were given to me by the Father of me: and no one knows the Son, except the Father, nor does know anyone the Father, except the Son, and to whomever will the Son reveal. The one that has my commandments, and keeps them, this one it is that loves me: and the one that loves me will be loved of Father of me and I will love that one, and will reveal myself to that one. If a person love me that one will keep my words: and Father of me will love that one, and we will come to that one, and our dwelling in that one we will make." Matthew 5:8+ 11:27+ John 14:21,23.
---Eloy on 2/12/12


Can you see God the Father and talk to Him one on one?
---curtis on 2/7/12
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

1 Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords,
1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto, whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

THE ANSWER IS NO
---francis on 2/12/12


Yes. "Blessed they of clean heart, for they will see God. The person that has seen me has seen The Father. Come now, and let us reason together, says Yhwh, though your sins be as scarlet, they will be as white as snow, though they be red like crimson, they will be as wool. Fear you not, for I with you: be not dismayed, for I your God: I will strengthen you. Yea, I will help you. Yea, I will uphold you with the right hand of my righteousness." Mt.5:8+ Jn.14:9+ Is.1:18+ 41:10.
---Eloy on 2/12/12


Eloy, no one now can see God now as Rhonda quoted. The only way they can see Him now is throught the perception of faith but in the glory of heaven. That is what your passage is talking about in (Matt. 5:8). They will see God (Rev. 22:34) "And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. "They shall see His face," and His name shall be on their foreheads."
The people that saw God were really seeing Christ the Son manifested in the Old Testament. While Jesus was alive people could see God through Him.
---Mark_V. on 2/12/12


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people want to see God which is why he WARNED to not make any graven image

people need props and many want to sell others on the idea they are special and have special access to God and many believe people rather than Gods Word

Nobody has seen The Father in Heaven except Christ and only Apostles and those who were with Christ during his 40 days after his resurrection to life saw him

no man or women or child has ever seen Christ today anyone who makes that claim is lying

GOD ONLY talks to people through HIS WORD ...Holy Scripture is GOD talking

we talk to God through prayer
---Rhonda on 2/11/12


lit.Hb: "And he said, You are not able to see my face, for no bloody one can see me and live. And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like to Moses, whom Yhwh knew person to person." Ex.33:20+ Dt.34:10. lit.Gk: "Blessed they of clean heart, for they will see God." Mt.5:8.
---Eloy on 2/11/12


Scott,

I see you've, once again, avoided my point.

One wouldn't expect someone to be slain (i.e. ''But on the nobles of the children of Israel he did not lay his hand'' Exodus 24:11) just for seeing a VISION of God. After all, just about all the prophets of the Old Testament saw a vision of God and God would be then killing the very people he sent the vision to just for having a vision of God that he had sent?!

So the only LOGICAL READING is that Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu and seventy of the elders of ISRAEL ''SAW THE GOD OF ISRAEL'', as Scripture unambiguously says!!!

Who is the God they saw? JESUS, meaning Jesus is YHWH!
---Marc on 2/11/12


Scott, you always give all these Bible names as if they spoke on your behalf but they don't. The word "saw" in (Ex. 24:10) is "Ra'ah" it means to see intellectually (Job 3:16: (cf 33:28). To look, to look at, view, inspect, regard, to perceive (Deut. 4:28) In the sense of hearing, (Gen. 2:19) etc.
In the case of (Ex. 24:10) as per God's instructions, they were privileged to have seen God without being consumed by His holiness. Precisely what they saw must remain a moot point and must stay within the description given, which focus only on what was under His feet. This perhaps indicates that only a partial manifestation took place such as would occure before Moses (33:20).
---Mark_V. on 2/11/12


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\\Yes, for thus says Yhwh: "And you all will seek me and find, when you all will search for me with all your heart."
---Eloy on 2/9/12\\

When will youm give up yourm pride and start sincerely seeking God, Eloy?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/10/12


Exodus 24:10- "See" (Hebrew Raah)-

"Mistranslation" Marc

Yaaaaaawn.

Strong's Concordance (Raah)=

1, To see
2. Perceive
3. Have vision

NASB, KJV, NKJV, NIV, ESV, RSV, ASV, YLT, DBY say:

"No one may see me and live." Ex 33:20

"No man hath ["ever"- NIV, ESV, RSV] seen God at any time..." John 1:18

"And the Father...You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form." John 5:37

"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God." John 6:46

"The...Lord of lords... whom no man has seen or can see." 1 Tim. 6:16
---scott on 2/10/12


Scott,

You quote Ex 33:20, yet Exodus 24:10,11 says: ''and they saw the God of Israel...but on the nobles of the children of Israel he did not lay his hand. So they saw saw God''.

He did not slay them even though THEY SAW GOD!

Who did they see? They saw God, as Scripture so clearly states. So who is this God? Jesus obviously, as Jesus said, ''if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.''

Your New World [Mis]Translation, to buttress its Arian heresy, adds the words ''but they got A VISION of the [TRUE] God.'' Clear evidence The Watchtower tampers with Scripture.
---Marc on 2/10/12


You can see God the same way you see air or the wind. You can see what it does but not where it comes from or where it goes. There is great power in the wind, it can lift you up, or knock you down. You can feel the air as it fills your lungs, and you know it is keeping you alive, you don't question that. You know the air is there by what the air does. Once you know God, you see Him in everything He does. A small child can understand this, but it is foolishness to those that think they are wise.
---Eunice on 2/9/12


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"No one may see me and live." Ex 33:20

"No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him .." John 1:18

"And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form." John 5:37

"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God, He has seen the Father." John 6:46

"...The King of kings and Lord of lords... whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen." 1 Tim. 6:15-16
---scott on 2/9/12


Curtis, John.1.17 "No one has ever seen God"
This written some 60 years after Christ''s ascension.
If you dispute this ,you have to conclude that John was lying!
---1st_cliff on 2/9/12


Yes, for thus says Yhwh: "And you all will seek me and find, when you all will search for me with all your heart."
---Eloy on 2/9/12


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