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Christ's Death At Calvary

Did Christ's death at Calvary made man only savable, putting the dependency on the man to choose or did His death accomplished salvation? What does Scripture say?

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If anything, when God commands, He is merely demonstrating to us that we do not have the ability until He work His grace in the sinner. ---christan

"Ok, so where is your coveted scripture which plainly says the nonsense you just puked?" ---James L

"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Philippians 2:12-13 ---christan


You think that a "sinner" is instructed to work out his own salvation? You're getting more and more pitiful.

you should really be ashamed of yourself. That's ok. Enought others here are ashamed of you
---James_L on 2/13/12


WHAT MUST a man DO to be saved? Ans. Believe on HIM who HE has sent.
---duane on 2/13/12


Faith is simply this:
Someone tells me there is a thing called a chair that I can sit in and no longer have to stand.
I look at the chair and observe it and its design, sturdiness etc.
BUT it isnt until I SIT in the chair that I put my faith in the chair that it will hold me.
Just knowing about a chair isnt faith, just observing it sturdiness isnt faith, but making the CHOICE to SITT in the chair after I first HEARD, and made a mental accent of its trustworthiness.
We HEAR the Word of God, we make a mental accent to the Truth of Gods Word and THEN we put our Trust in What God said, what He promised.
---kathr4453 on 2/13/12


Even free willers believe GOD ALONE SAVES A SOUL." and yet they say the man has to first do his part in choosing Christ. Wonder which part of Scripture declares this?//christan


christan John 3:16 clearly declare this...whosoever believes in Him WILL NOT PERISH but have eternal life.

God Gift and what HE gives us is eternal life,through Jesus Christ... not faith. We cannot give ourselves eternal life.

christan, if I need a TAX MAN and HEAR of one that is excellent, then if I go to that TAX MAN to do my taxes, then I've put my faith in him. I did not do my own taxes, HE DID!
---kathr4453 on 2/13/12


Just like the serpent lied to Eve "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Just like the "free-will", DECEPTION!
---christan on 2/13/12

And Eve using her 'free will' believe in the lie.

Genesis 3:3 "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat, and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we die"
---Ruben on 2/13/12




\\How very SAD that some here believe if you're not calvin you MUST BE Arminian.Faith comes by HEARING, not by election.\\
---kathr4453
AMEN, Kathr. Very good points indeed



\\But Jesus tells us it is Faith and works not one or the other!\\
---Ruben on 2/13/12

Don't worry, Ruben, Calvinism teaches the same thing, they're just dishonest about it.

Westminster Confession XIII.I
"...to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord."

XV.III
"Although repentance be not to be rested in as any satisfaction for sin...yet is it of such necessity to all sinners, that none may expect pardon without it."


Calvinism = WORKS, WORKS, WORKS
---James_L on 2/13/12


The problem is there are those who believe salvation is of their own works,
---lee1538 on 2/13/12

But Jesus tells us it is Faith and works not one or the other!John writes in 1 Jhn 3:10-15, the same words Jesus use in Jhn 5:24,
" whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous. Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. "
---Ruben on 2/13/12


lee1538* John 5:24 the Christian will not face the judgment.

But only does who do good get the resurrection life, those who don't get damned!o

---Ruben on 2/13/12


JamesL, that is absolutely true what you stated, right out of the WCF.

AND:
Faith comes by HEARING, not by election. So, it is important what one HEARS. God only empowers HIS TRUTH, not false gospels.

There are 1001 false gospels out there. I didn't say just any ol gospel either.

Just like Paul rebuked the Galatians of turning to another Gospel...

Paul taught GRACE through teh CROSS and the very heart of Galatians AND GRACE is I am Crucified with Christ.

So, not only can the Elect FALL from this Grace, many have never surrendered to it to begin with.

Paul said he was persecuted for the CROSS, not persecuted for preaching election!
---kathr4453 on 2/13/12


Westminster Confession XVII.1
They whom God hath accepted in His beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

When a person has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and truly coverted to Christ by repentence & faith, is it possible to again become a child of wrath and of eternal destruction?

John 3:36 speaks of eternal life as a present possession.

John 5:24 the Christian will not face the judgment.

The problem is there are those who believe salvation is of their own works, effectively that Jesus is simply a co-savior, their religion is really an ethical philosophy.
---lee1538 on 2/13/12




"And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall NEVER perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
---christan on 2/13/12

Really:

" If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch"(JHn 15:6)

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off:(Mk 9:43)

" But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."(MT 6:14-15) Paul tells us:

" Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine, continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."( 1 Tim 4:16)

What happens if a christian does not hold on to the doctrine and continues in it, is one still save?
---Ruben on 2/13/12


"Even free willers believe GOD ALONE SAVES A SOUL." and yet they say the man has to first do his part in choosing Christ. Wonder which part of Scripture declares this?

One thing's for sure, Paul's conversion contradicts their "free-will" theology. Has anyone ever thought why the Holy Spirit gave us an insight of the conversion of the "chief of sinners"? Answer is very simple, to tell us that the "free-will" conversion is nothing but a big fat lie.

Just like the serpent lied to Eve "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Just like the "free-will", DECEPTION!
---christan on 2/13/12


christan you need to watch it.. MarkV LOVES Charles Stanley.

And also remember christan, there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOSPEL that SAVES....and your's doesn't!

Why are you so bitter and angry?
---kathr4453 on 2/13/12


christan, I don't care what arminians believe. I am NEITHER however believe God saves through Jesus Christ 100%, that my eternal security is in Christ 100% and I cannot lose my salvation.

I am also not a Calvinist! So get over it!
---kathr4453 on 2/13/12


\\man has to work or lose his salvation as the Armenians teach, which basically is calling God a liar...\\
---christan on 2/13/12


Calvinism is an internally conflicted, deceitful sham of a works-based salvation masked behind a facade of "sola fide"

Westminster Confession XVI.II
"...that, having their fruit unto holiness, they may have the end, eternal life."

XVII.I
"...persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved."


Calvinism hangs final salvation on works and perseverane EXACTLY the same as Arminianism.

Calvinists don't believe "sola scriptura", you believe "dimidium scriptura"

You ought to be ashamed of yourself
---James_L on 2/13/12


"Those who preach the Gospel ARE The True Elect Church!"

Really? And Christ warning is nothing but a joke, "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

And we can throw out Paul's warning too. "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

Joseph Smith, Benny Hinn, Charles Stanley etc must be God's Elect too right? They also preach the Gospel...
---christan on 2/13/12


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The subject of eternal security according to the Armenians is they have to work for it or they will lose their salvation. The Scriptural backing they provide is lame brain as Scripture does not contradict Scripture.

The Calvinist believe, "And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall NEVER perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." Christ never taught that the man has to work or lose his salvation as the Armenians teach, which basically is calling God a liar for not keeping His promise. That's why salvation is 100% God and 0% man.

The Armenians are 50% man and 50% God, or as they say, "God help those who help themself. Meet God half-way."
---christan on 2/13/12


Pappa Bear, there are also those TOO who are NEITHER, as is Charles Stanley, just to name one. Because we believe that the Church is not Israel or replaced Israel is the defining factor in "The definition of PREDESTINATION"

It's not that we don't believe in predestination...because , WE DO. WE believe the CHURCH, The Mystery of GOd, was predestined to reign and rule with Christ in the Millenniel Kingdon, being conformed to His Image, and members of His Body.

Jesus said whosoever FOLLOWS ME IN THE REGENERATION will ...Matthew 19:27-29.
---kathr4453 on 2/13/12


The Bible teaches predestination. BUT we need to study to show ourselves approved OF GOD concerning these verses. We are Predestined to be conformed to His Image,to be HOLY AND BLAMELESS, we are being made CONFORMABLE TO HIS DEATH Phil 3

The Church is CALLED OUT of this world. The Church is called the SUFFERING CHURCH in this world. The Church is here to FINISH the works Christ started, that is to preach the Gospel.

Faith comes by HEARING...Hearing the WORD OF GOD and God ALONE!

WHO has God given the word of reconciliation? God's Elect Church, Christ's BODY ...to wit that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself...BE YE RECONCILED TO GOD!

Those who preach the Gospel ARE The True Elect Church!
---kathr4453 on 2/13/12


And YES it is God who works IN US to will and to do of His Good pleasure.

However THIS is promised through the Blood of the Everlasting Covenant. Hebrews 13:20-21 to those who receive Jesus Chhrist. It has nothing to do with having you name picked out for salvation. This is God's Promise to those NOW SAVED that Having the Spirit of God NOW IN YOU He is teh one who will be conforming you to the Image of Jesus Christ.

People need to understand that some verses are talking to thos all ready saved. And here Paul is not preaching Election but obedience to new life as we continually SURRENDER to God as He now is working in us SANCTIFICATION...not justification.
---kathr4453 on 2/13/12


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Chria, you are right, you do not have to know the doctrine of Predestianation in order to be saved. Because when you are saved by God you know who saved you, God. Everyone in the world who is in some form of religion is divided by only two theologies. Christianity is the only one that clearly states man cannot save himself by his own works, but by the grace of God through faith. And that is an act of God. All other religions have works. That is what separates us from them. Protestant churches by separating from Catholicism mostly taught the same, by God's Grace through faith alone. Now many denominations, with their free will concept, have gone back to works, and abandoned the Grace of God through faith.
---Mark_V. on 2/13/12


---Poppa_Bear on 2/12/12. I believe you've made a good point, that one believes in the gospel unto salvation, trusting God but may not be fully aware of predestination. I do not know much of what calvinists or armenians believe, I just know that I belong to God, and have learned a little here, but all through the Word by His Spirit. All the discussions did little but raise questions, only the Word and Spirit have made me see the little I do.
---chria9396 on 2/12/12


"Ok, so where is your coveted scripture which plainly says the nonsense you just puked?"

"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Philippians 2:12-13

Paul says when the sinner fear and tremble about salvation, guess who was working in him? "For it is God which worketh in you..." Or are you so blind that you cannot see that God is behind this work of causing the sinner to fear and tremble?

By now, I am sure you know that God is definitely not working in you one bit to come to His truth but hardening you to reject this truth which is in His Scripture.
---christan on 2/13/12


where He said that although He lived under the 10 commandments we would live under grace after His death. When you show me that scripture I will believe.
--barb

just a start...

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up [resurrection]:
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.

my prayer is that you do believe.
---aka on 2/12/12


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How very SAD that some here believe if you're not Calvin you MUST BE Armenian... Kathr, I can agree with allot in this post you made. The promise of the Gospel is still held in John 3-16. I believe that I was predestined from all eternity, and was called at an appointed time, but if a person simply believes in Jesus as their Lord and Savior, doesn't understand/agree with predestination, I still believed that they are saved by the promise of the Gospel of Christ and not faith in predestination. I attended Reformed Theological Seminary, and too often there is a condescending attitude that pervades many students of Reformed Theology, and the concern with predestination is often a bigger priority than sharing the Gospel.
---Poppa_Bear on 2/12/12


\\If anything, when God commands, He is merely demonstrating to us that we do not have the ability until He work His grace in the sinner.\\
---christan on 2/12/12

Ok, so where is your coveted scripture which plainly says the nonsense you just puked?

What you fail to realize, along with Arminians, is that there is not one single human being who has the ability to decide what he believes.

We cannot believe ANYTHING unless we are convinced of it. You can't decide to be convinced, whether you are born again or not.

Justification is not about obeying, following, turning, or anything else that one can choose. The gospel is BELIEVE THE TRUTH, and that happens TO us, by God.

BUT, some refuse to be convinced
---James_L on 2/12/12


How very SAD that some here believe if you're not calvin you MUST BE Arminian...and throw that around as some dirty word.

Nothing could be further from the truth. We have so many immature ones who were taught this and come at everyone as though they were Arminian, to bully and abuse those who believe in free will. Even free willers believe GOD ALONE SAVES A SOUL.

Even free willers believe in eternal security.

Faith is not saving yourself, unless there is some supernatural power in FAITH. Even FAITH after one is saved by which one uses their GIFTS in no way CREDITS the believer of having such power at their use in the first place.

Without faith it is impossible to PLEASE GOD, it doesn't say BE GOD!
---kathr4453 on 2/12/12


James_L, before you label someone ignorant, I would suggest you take a look at yourself in front of the mirror. Here's why.

NONE of the verses you so confidently quote, "say that one has the ability to reject Christ." NONE. All God does is continue to command and rebuke saying, "If you respond to my warning, Since I called out and you refused, since you neglected all my counsel and did not accept my correction,

Where did God ever say that "you are able but did not respond to my warning or you are able but you refused". Where? Where? Where?

If anything, when God commands, He is merely demonstrating to us that we do not have the ability until He work His grace in the sinner.
---christan on 2/12/12


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James_L
//SINCE YOU REJECT IT and consider YOURSELVES unworthy of eternal life we now turh to the Gentiles"// very true

Could be that Christan, like Markv "think" it doesn't mean what it says.
---michael_e on 2/12/12


James L, don't you know you just presented the depravity of man? The calling of the gospel has been going out since(Gen.3:15) and what happened? It was rejected. Why? Because they were not willing to come to Christ. Why?
Christan told you,
" So, rejection is the consequence of unbelief and unbelief is the consequence of one not being born of the Spirit."
Scripture tells us what God wanted from them and they refused. Do you know why they are guilty? Because they refused. The reason God is going to punish them is found in the passage you gave (Romans 1:18). God is not responsible for their rejection, they are, but if God had wanted them to believe, He would have made them spiritually alive to Christ.
---Mark_V. on 2/12/12


Lee 1538, you did not show me from the words of Jesus Christ where He said that although He lived under the 10 commandments we would live under grace after His death. When you show me that scripture I will believe.

The bible was put together by men. Men decided which books would be included into the New Testament. Jesus never promised us a bible. Instead He promised us that the Holy Spirit would cause His eyewitness disciples to remember all things. John 14:26. And they did remember all things and we have their written records in the Gospels of John and Matthew and the book of Revelation. Matt 15:8-9.

Unfortunately, some tares have gotten into God's word and we must learn to weed them out from among the wheat.
---barb on 2/12/12


Christan,
once again, your ignorant comment shows that you really don't even know what I believe.

Likewise, you don't even know what God believes.

Hmmm. Show scripture, huh? I alread referenced Romans 1:18, but here's another

Acts 13:26,46
"Brothers, sins of Abraham's race...the MESSAGE of this SALVATION has been sent to us...it was necessary that God's message be spoked to you first. BUT,

(now get ready, Christan)

SINCE YOU REJECT IT and consider YOURSELVES unworthy of eternal life we now turh to the Gentiles"


You're free to go ahead and call God a liar anytime you want to. He already knows you think it
---James_L on 2/12/12


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Christan,
here is another

Proverbs 1:
22 How long, foolish ones, will you love ignorance?
How long will you mockers enjoy mocking
and you fools hate knowledge?
23 If you respond to my warning,
then I will pour out my spirit on you
and teach you my words.
24 Since I called out and you refused,
extended my hand and no one paid attention,
25 since you neglected all my counsel
and did not accept my correction,
26 I, in turn, will laugh at your calamity.


Are you ready to call God a liar yet? Or are you going to take the Mark V approach

"I know it doesn't mean what is written"

Pitiful. You ought to be ashamed of yourself
---James_L on 2/12/12


Christan, good points. When we give passages that explicitly state something, Arminians read the truth and reject it, because of unbelief. No one is stopping them from believing, they are just not able to, but don't realize their inability. All they understand is that they are not able so not willing, and Jesus said "Why do you not understand My speech? because 'you are not able' to listen to My word." Here is why, "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do". No matter what Jesus said, they could not hear His word and believe. So Jesus said, "He who is of God hears God's words, therefore you do not hear because you are not of God" (John 8:42-47).
---Mark_V. on 2/12/12


//I follow Jesus who is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Paul's words mean nothing to me.//

2Pe 3:15-16

to your own destruction...

growing up, my father was greater, but my brothers were still important.
---aka on 2/11/12


"...there are plenty of scriptures which say that one has the ability to reject Christ." James_L

From your mouth you speak like a Calvinist, but from your heart you're a real true blue Arminian.

O please, really please show us the very Scripture that says, "...that one has the ability to reject Christ."

According to the revelation in the Scriptures, when one rejects Christ, it is simply because God has not worked His mercy and grace in the sinner to believe in Him. So, rejection is the consequence of unbelief and unbelief is the consequence of one not being born of the Spirit.

Why do you write it like it really depends on the man and not God? Simple, you're an Arminian.
---christan on 2/11/12


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\\where's your "free-will" to choose or reject Christ?\\
---christan on 2/10/12

Scripture nowhere supports the fictitious notion of "choosing" Christ. One must be convinced of the truth of the gospel by the Holy Spirit

BUT,

there are plenty of scriptures which say that one has the ability to reject Christ. Romans 1:18 says that some "suppress the truth in unrighteousness"
---James_L on 2/11/12


MarkV, the point I am simply making to some is not centered on John 6:54. It's true that this verse has nothing to do with the RC's communion.

As I've said earlier, "free-will" does not exist and some theologians have called it the golden-calf. However, there are three main Scriptures (with many more) that goes against their "free-will" salvation and the impossibility for man to do. But they still scream and shout it's possible even when Christ told them, "for man it's impossible".

The three verses simply tells us that salvation is all 100% the work of God, which is also known as Grace. The verses are Matthew 19:25-26, John 6:44 and Romans 1:16.
---christan on 2/11/12


MarkV, please re-read that verse. it says those who eat my flesh and drink my blood HAVE eternal life.

No go back and re-read all of John 6 from the beginning to end.

And GREAT, you do understand it does not mean communion, since communion cannot save anyone.

To accept teh Word of Christ on the cross is to accept our place in identifying with Christ in death and resurrection life.

WE are being made conformable to His Death....Phil 3.

Also note Hebrews 11 Moses SUFFERED with the people of God , considering the reproach of Christ far better than the riches of this world.

---kathr4453 on 2/11/12


Christan, the passage in (John 6:54) the eating of His flesh and the drinking of His blood metaphorically symbolize the need for accepting Jesus cross work by faith and faith to believe comes from God. The Jews as well as some here in their wilfull and judicial blindness cannot see the real spiritual significance and truth behind Jesus statements, Second, Jesus reference here to eating and drinking was not referring to the ordinance of communion for two significant reasons,
1. Communion had not been instituted yet.
2. If Jesus was referring to communion, then the passage would teach that anyone who partaking of commnunion would receive eternal life, which is false since other passages contradict that.
---Mark_V. on 2/11/12


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barb //who is greater Paul or Jesus Christ? I follow Jesus who is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Paul's words mean nothing to me.

I am truly amazed that there are those like yourself out there that will not believe it was the Spirit of Jesus that had the entire Bible penned.

You apparently fail to understand Jesus was under the law but the Christian is not under the law but under grace.

Romans 6:14-15 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

Read also Galatians 4:4-5.

Ga 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit (of Christ), you are not under the law.
---lee1538 on 2/10/12


Do I have a Bible? Of course I do, do you?

John 6:54 does not stand alone simply by reading it as what you are doing here. It is the consequence of John 6:44 that will result in John 6:54!
Do you agree that everything the believer does or are able to do simply hinges on John 6:44 and Romans 1:16?

So, my point is simple, where's your "free-will" to choose or reject Christ? I have shown you two verses that clearly declares that. Where's yours? Still can't find it? That's because it's in your imaginative mind, a demonstration of the fallen man which you totally reject and keep insisting that you're not dead, let alone blind.
---christan on 2/10/12


"Please show me from the words of Jesus that the ten commandments are done with." barb

Did I even say this in my blogs? I think not. And are you seriously saying that Jesus and Paul preaches a different Gospel?

God did not send Jesus to teach you to obey the ten commandments. It's because of the ten commandments that Jesus came to die for His people. Have you not heard that, "the law worketh wrath, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."?

You still want to do the law to be saved or you will loose your salvation?
---christan on 2/10/12


Christian, who is greater Paul or Jesus Christ? I follow Jesus who is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Paul's words mean nothing to me.

Please show me from the words of Jesus that the ten commandments are done with.

John 3:16 does not tell me that the commandments have passed away. John 3:16 tells me that God sent His Son to teach me something and if I believe His Son's words I will have everlasting life.

Here is something for you. John 5:43 I have come in my Father's and you do NOT receive me, if someone else comes in his own name, him you WILL receive. Ain't that the truth.
---barb on 2/10/12


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John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.


Christan, do you have Bible?
---kathr4453 on 2/10/12


"THOSE who "I will raise up in the last days EAT MY FLESH and DRINK MY BLOOD" KEEP READING!!!...."

SAY WHAT?!!! Is that what Jesus really means? My goodness, you're choking on your own venom!

Those whom Jesus will raise are those whom the Father has drawn to Him. And in the earlier verses, who are these that the Father will draw? "ALL that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37

Confirming that God has already elected/chosen and has given to Christ for salvation. And only these God will draw and give to Christ, period.

You are sounding sillier by the very blogs you post.
---christan on 2/10/12


"Jesus' death is not a free ticket to Heaven. We must do as He says and obey the commandments of God and keep to the works and testimony of Jesus." barb

Paul taught, "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Nothing that the sinner can do will earn him a place in the kingdom of God is very clear.

This is for you, "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise." Galatians 3:10,12,18
---christan on 2/10/12


francis, have you ever asked yourself who those "whosoever" are in (John 3:16?) The 'whosoever" are the ones who "believeth" and only those, will not parish and have everlasting life.
Now faith to believe comes from God. And only those will have everlasting life. All the others will parish.
Why do you think we are given faith? "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9). It surely clear to any impartial mind that this statement is quite pointless if God has not "appointed " any to wrath. To say that God has not appointed us to wrath clearly implies others have.
---Mark_V. on 2/10/12


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"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." Simply, Christ is saying to come to Him, His Father must first draw you.///


christan, THOSE who "I will raise up in the last days EAT MY FLESH and DRINK MY BLOOD" KEEP READING!!!....

So it's the CROSS and Jesus death and resurrection life here being spoken of.

WHO did Jesus say that too...those who believed in Jesus, saw His miracles, ATE His bread, and wanted MORE...They wanted a savor WITHOUT the CROSS...Just like YOU!



Why do Your NEED to open evey conversation with venum on your lips SHOWING who's the real SNAKE here!

1 Cor 13??? YOUR NOTHING Christan NOTHING!
---kathr4453 on 2/10/12


Yes, this blog question is about CHRIST's death at Calvary.

But somehow in EVERY single blog, even if one is talking about their son's grades or bad behavior in school, it all is over run by the NO FREE WILLERS.

It's all enough to gag a maget!

Especially from those who know NOTHING about all that was accomplished at Calvary.

They want salvation without identification or personal responsibility.

These are programmed robots who were only programmed with 10 sayings...just like an ELMO PHONE programmed with 10 different sayings 5 veres, and 5 curses.

Can you really reason with a plastic robot?
---kathr4453 on 2/10/12


christan, your verses on another blog..." Can an Etheopian change the color of his skin" has nothing to do with NO FREE WILL. Jeremiah 13 is absolute about free will. If God didn't give them a CHOICE to repent, then why all teh fuss. If God made tehm exactly as He wanted them to be, there would have been NO NEED to even write Jeremiah to begin with.

Your Johnny one note one verses taken totally out of context is nothig more than we see our politicians doing today....

DISTORTING the truth of the WHOLE, by extracting a blurb and making a federal case out of it.

READ CHRISTAN read ALL of Scripture. That is if you have the ability to read, seeing God may not have given you the free will to REASON!
---kathr4453 on 2/10/12


Its so sad to hear/see the anger when some disagree with verses of scripture. I got out of that mess years ago when I left the Catholic Church. Some of you should get out of your churches false ideas and turn to God in prayer. HE will give truth. We DONT need Church to tell us truth, we DO need HIS Spirit.
---duane on 2/10/12


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kathr, you contradict yourself everytime you open that venomous mouth of yours and choke on your own poison. One moment you say, "NO ONE can come TO THE FATHER except through His Son." And according to you, one goes to the Son by his own free-will which Jesus contradicts declaring,

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." Simply, Christ is saying to come to Him, His Father must first draw you.

Do you see Christ saying, "you must come by your own free-will?" So where does your "free-will" stand? That's how foolish your doctrine of "free-will" is.
---christan on 2/9/12


I believe we all have to make the choice. God gave Israel a choice between life and death Duet 30:19-20, Duet 11:27-28. Jesus said no man could come to Him unless the Father who sent Him draws him, John 6:44. Jesus is saying that if you have listened to the Father you will hear the Son also but if you have not harkened to the Father neither will you heed the Son. In other words as John 6:45 says Everyone who has heard and learned of the Father comes to Jesus.

Why? Because He is teaching exactly the same message that God tried to teach Israel.

Jesus' death is not a free ticket to Heaven. We must do as He says and obey the commandments of God and keep to the works and testimony of Jesus. Rev. 2:26, Rev. 14:12.
---barb on 2/9/12


francis, with a "w" you gave ( Rev. 22:17) which says,
"And the Spirit and the bride (which is all believers) say, "Come" And let him who hears say Come" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely"
Now, who are the ones who hear? Jesus said "He who is of God hears God's words, therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God"
Only those of God will hear. The gospel is never denied by God. But the lost are not able to come to Christ.
"Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father" (John 6:65).
---Mark_V. on 2/9/12


1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Now this doesn't mean that the Gospel was preached to already dead people, it says those who are dead.

Romans 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Scripture disagrees with you leej

Again, God cannot Judge anyone according to the Gospel unless He has made known the Gospel.

He said He has. I believe Him!
---kathr4453 on 2/9/12


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Jesus said, "it is finished". Everything was accomplished on the cross. We are saved by faith alone, faith in what Jesus Christ accomplished for us all.
---Eunice on 2/9/12


kathr4453//God has called ALL MEN to be saved. The choice is there.

You must be blind as there have been and will be millions that have never nor will ever hear the gospel message and be saved.

Scripture must be interpreted with scripture and it is just too easy to see that Christ died 'for many' NOT 'for all'.

Mr 10:45 For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

yes, we would like to believe that everyone may be offered the same thing, but scripture does not tell us that.
---lee1538 on 2/9/12


there is no ego' here. There is no passages that says God gave free will to man for salvation. ---Mark_V. on 2/9/12
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER will, let him take the water of life freely
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

my name is Francis W. Francis

the W stand for WHOSOEVER
---francis on 2/9/12


"Now we know that God does not hear sinners, but if anyone is a worshipper of God and does His will, He hears them" (John 9:31).
---Mark_V. on 2/9/12


So what is this WILL WE must do in order for God to Hear us.

Still sounds like the responsibility is on man!

You presume one is already born saved, and not born a sinner!
---kathr4453 on 2/9/12


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Lee1538, God has called ALL MEN to be saved. The choice is there.
jesus died for ALL. Therefore it is up to man to accept or reject teh Gospel massage, that Jesus died for the sin of the whole world, and whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

Just do your job lee, prreach teh Gospel, and let GOD do teh rest.

The Gospel message is NOT...ME ME I CAN'T BELIEVE GOD SAVED ME!

You see, the Gospel is not about YOU, but Jesus and what He did.

Are all Calvinists Narcissists?
---kathr4453 on 2/9/12


Craig, there is no ego' here. There is no passages that says God gave free will to man for salvation. The opposite is said, that man is not able to come to Christ on his own. Jesus said,
"Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father" (John 6:65). John the Baptist said,
"A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven" (John 3:27). And John the Apostle said,
"even so, the Son gives life to whom He will" We are told,
"Now we know that God does not hear sinners, but if anyone is a worshipper of God and does His will, He hears them" (John 9:31).
---Mark_V. on 2/9/12


kath4453//If one understood Moses and the serpent one would KNOW it is FREE WILL. Since Moses could not FORCE anyone to look up and be healed.

Free will is simply the capacitiy to chose between alternatives. However, if the alternative is not there, one has no choice. Likewise if the Lord does not call one to salvation there is no chance that one will come to believe.

Again, while salvation is wholly of God from start to finish, God has no plans to offer salvation to all.

Mt 26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

I know you do not like it, but 'for many' does NOT mean 'for all'.

Your understanding of Scripture is truly lacking.
---lee1538 on 2/9/12


NO Christan ...
John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

The one you quoted in John was when Jesus was on earth. However the one Jesus spoke in John 12:32 is referring to His death and resurrection also stating that Jesus Himself will do the DRAWING.

Those who were drawn to Jesus BEFORE He went to the Cross,while on earth WERE drawn by the Father...for a purpose...to be disciples of Jesus and to be witnesses to His death and resurrection as scripture teaches OVER ...500 witnessed this as Acts tells us, along with HIS APOSTLES ..12 of them of which Judas was too one of them.

NO ONE can come TO THE FATHER except through His Son.
---kathr4453 on 2/9/12


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Careful Francis, you might fracture their egos by teaching them that Christ died for everyone and not just them :P
---CraigA on 2/9/12


If "Calvary enabled man to be saved" and "we are included in choosing", why would Jesus declare, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."? Doesn't His declaration contradict your thoughts?

BTW, where does it say in Scripture that Christ's death at Calvary "enabled man"? Or for that matter, how does one take away from "therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live" and understand it as "we are included in choosing"?

When God commanded, "Be Holy for I am Holy", does it imply we who are sinners can make ourselves Holy like God?
---christan on 2/9/12


Great scriptures here!

John 3:14 leads into John 3:16-17

As Moses lifted up teh serpent in the wilderness, even so the Son of man must be lifted up.That WHOSOEVER believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

If one understood Moses and the serpent one would KNOW it is FREE WILL. Since Moses could not FORCE anyone to look up and be healed.

Looking on the serpent was man acknowledging his own SIN and by faith in looking, acknowledging and believing was HEALED.

The answer to our 2 questions is YES and YES!
---kathr4453 on 2/9/12


Christs death took away sin(mens sins not counted against them) so mankind could now come before God to be saved. Mankind must now choose life or death. Trust in Jesus and you shall be saved(given life)
---duane on 2/9/12


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"For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take sin" (Hebrews 10:4).

Hebrews 9:9 "cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper".

Hebrews 9:14 "eternal spirit........purify your conscience".

.....yes, salvation is actually a 2 step process, but because Jesus had also given us the Spirit when He was glorified at His ascension to The Father's right hand, GOOD STUDENTS will also have the "GUARANTEE".

John 7:39 "the spirit had not yet been given because Jesus had not yet been glorified".

Ephesians 1:14 "which is the guarantee of our inheritance".

Acts 13:48 "they were glad and glorified the WORD OF GOD".
---more_excellent_way on 2/8/12


Did Christ's death at Calvary made man only savable, putting the dependency on the man to choose or did His death accomplished salvation? What does Scripture say?
---christan on 2/8/12
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name

So then the choise is now for every individaul, christ has made salvation availabel to ALL MEN

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at, but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
---francis on 2/8/12


When the WORD OF GOD hung on the cross and three days later rose from the grave, He made it POSSIBLE (to "see") for all flesh to be purified ONCE AND FOR ALL

Luke 3:6 "all flesh shall see the salvation of God".

Isaiah 40:5 "all flesh shall see it together"

The JEWS had always REPEATEDLY made sacrifices and offerings (the blood of bulls and goats was the common offering to God for cleanliness/purification) in order to have "purification" from the 10 commandment law of sin and death (but that "purification" was neither ETERNAL/permanent PURIFICATION nor COMPLETE PURIFICATION.
---more_excellent_way on 2/8/12


neither. His resurrection (victory over death) accomplished salvation. scripture is clear, our understanding is through a cloudy mirror.

any transaction, based on a covenant, requires action on both parts.
---aka on 2/8/12


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I believe every one of us is going to believe, what God give you.
But people think, because they feel the presence of God.
They have all the truth. So, whatever they believed at that moment.
Is their truth!

1Co_12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co_12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
But, the fighting between the eyes, hears, hands and feet still continue today.
And will continue, until we all know the truth, 1Co 12:25.

This is the body of Christ.
Whats funny is people are waiting for Christ to come back.
And so am I!

First teaching from God!
Gen_3:11 Who told thee that thou wast naked?
Clearly saying it wasnt God, right!
Peace
---TheSeg on 2/8/12


Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood (shed on the Cross), we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Since salvation is strictly a gift from God (Eph. 2:8-10), Calvary enabled man to be saved simply by believing in Jesus.
---lee1538 on 2/8/12


"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself" (in 2 Corinthians 5:19) < this was done on Calvary.

"therefore choose life" (in Deuteronomy 30:19) > we are included in choosing.

"work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (in Philippians 2:12-13) > God in us works us to will (choose) "His good pleasure." Free will separate from God can not please Him (2 Corinthians 3:5, Romans 6:17).

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17) Only in union with God can we do His choosing with Him (c: in His love (Romans 5:5).
---Bill_willa6989 on 2/8/12


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