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Can I Have A Few Drinks

Is it fine for a married man to go out with friends and have a few drinks? Is alcohol wrong in christianity?

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 ---Tessa on 2/13/12
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francis, you have to be set free from the law. Theres no salvation and no future under the law.
Use some common sense. Anything can be bad for us if we miss use it. Too much food, too many cokes, to much cake, to many drinks, too many smokes, too much complaining also is wrong. Too much of anything is bad for us. We have to use discernment. If your conscience tells you not to drink, don't go against conscience. It's pretty simple. We do have some not all, control as to our condition in life, but no control as to when we will die. A smoker might live a life with an oxigen tank or without. Too much food, you can live a life healthy, or carry a lot of weight. You can be healthy and still die of something. We try to be good but we all fail.
---Mark_V. on 2/24/12


Lets look at this from the character of God/ Jesus
Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Proverbs 23:29-35 Can we agree that this passage is against the use of alcohol?

Proverbs 23:29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow...They that tarry long at the wine, they that go to seek mixed wine.

So now we have a wedding in Cana, and people have been drinking wine. Lets say fro arguement sake, that this wine they were drink contained alcohol.
Are we saying that after the ran out of wine, Jesus then gave an already drunken group 125 ADDITIONAL GALLONS of alcohol?

Does that not seem contrary to the already establish prohibition against alcohol?
---francis on 2/23/12


francis:

Twice, you said: Not only that. Keeping in mind that the use of wine in the sancuary is a "type" of christ blood. So the miracle of Cana could never have been fermented wine.

This relies on several cases of pure conjecture not supported by scripture. Jesus did not say "this is the type of my blood". He said "this IS my blood". Even if it was grape juice, it was grape juice CAPABLE of eventual fermentation (since they did not have pasteurization). Would Jesus use something capable of corruption to be a "type" of his incorruptible blood? If we use your kind of over-strict reasoning, the answer to this would ALSO be no - so it could not have been grape juice either.
---StrongAxe on 2/24/12


This is what I read in this post.

Mat_18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2Co_13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

You just want to think these people are wrong.
But this is what I read in these threads.

Act_13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Peace
---TheSeg on 2/23/12


Francis, you misuse Deuteronomy to prove the unproveable. It says specific 'grapes' and 'wine' were poison.

Proverbs 23:20,21 show drunkeness and gluttony are sinful. Not that drinking and eating is sinfull, only to excess. Verses 30,31 refers to those given to excess. This does not support your case.

Last time in the US, grossly overweight Christians lectured me on the evils of alkehol. I drink but don't get drunk. They obviously are heroes of the table! Their legalistic self-righteousness reminded me of like Pharisees who bent men's backs with man-made regulations. Jesus (who created and drank wine) called them hypocrites, blind guides, sons of vipers-Matthew 23:13-33. He wouldn't be allowed in your church.
---Warwick on 2/23/12




---Warwick on 2/23/12
1: There is nothing in the bible that remotely suggest that Sodom has literally poisen grapes.

2: Sodom was not in existance anymore when Moses was alive. This text is deuteronomy only referrs to the SIN of sodom

3: This text is not speaking to sodom but to unfaithful israelites

4: Verse 33 is not nessesaril,y limked to verse
32. It stands on it's own
It does not say that the wine came from sodom.

5: It begs the question: what type of wine is like asp venom?

Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

SODOM NOT WITHSTANDING
---francis on 2/23/12


francis, since the grape harvest and the Passover were separated by at least six months, can you tell just how in first century Judea grape juice was prevented from fermenting WITHOUT refrigeration, preservatives, or pasteurization?

Bet you can't!

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/23/12


Francis I wrote Exodus 32:33 when of course it is Deuteronomy. "For their rock is not as our Rock, our enemies are by themselves. For their vine comes from the vine of Sodom and from the fields of Gomorrah, their grapes are grapes of poison, their clusters are bitter, their wine is the poison of serpents and the cruel venom of asps." Deuteronomy 32:31-33.

You wrote "grapes from sodom are not in themselves poison, it is the alcoholic beverage which the bible speaks of" You are wrong, God is speaking of specific people whose "grapes are grapes of poison" whose wine is "the poison of serpents. Both their grapes and their wine are poisonous.

Yours is a cultural belief unsupported by Scripture.
---Warwick on 2/23/12


Francis is merely telling us that Jesus performed a miracle on the wine changing it to grape juice.
---lee1538 on 2/23/12
Not only that. Keeping in mind that the use of wine in the sancuary is a "type" of christ blood. So the miracle of Cana could never have been fermented wine.

John 2:4 mine hour is not yet come.
John 17:1 Father, the hour is come,

When His hour came, he gave the true wine: His blood

This is an alegory of the old and new covenant.

The new covenant which came second and is based on the bllod of Jesus was build on beter promises
Also see the marriage of leah and rachel, the woman with the issue of blood and the jarius daughter

thus no alcohol
---francis on 2/23/12


francis:

Yes, of course - you have rationalized away all these verses, because they disagree with your preconceptions.
---StrongAxe on 2/23/12




//Since the grape harvest was in August or September, and the Passover was in March or April, what was in the cup Jesus blessed at the Last Supper, francis?
---Cluny on 2/23/12

Grape juice
---francis on 2/23/12


Francis is merely telling us that Jesus performed a miracle on the wine changing it to grape juice.

Think that we should like the Catholics who claim they can change bread and wine into the actual body and blood of Jesus, that we should also pray over the juice to un-ferment it? LOL
---lee1538 on 2/23/12


1 Timothy 5:23, Proverbs 31:6, Romans 14:2-3, Psalm 104:14,15, Zechariah 10:7

And don't forget Nehemiah 13:12. New wine was brought to the treasury. Why? To be stored, like treasure. StrongAxe on 2/23/12
I think I have addressed all of these

But let me talk about 1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

1: The would wine here does not indicate alcohol because A: Of he had OFTEN stomach issues and derak alcohol OFETN he would become a drunk

2: Alcohol does not cure or sooth ANY stomach problems, think grape and palm juice does so for ulcers, and occasional " heart burn"
---francis on 2/23/12


francis:

The following pro-wine verses have been mentioned on this blog several times, but you seem to have forgotten them, because these parts of the Bible conflicts with your preconceptions, so your preconceptions seem to win out:

1 Timothy 5:23, Proverbs 31:6, Romans 14:2-3, Psalm 104:14,15, Zechariah 10:7

And don't forget Nehemiah 13:12. New wine was brought to the treasury. Why? To be stored, like treasure. What happens when you store unfermented wine? It turns into fermented wine.
---StrongAxe on 2/23/12


Since the grape harvest was in August or September, and the Passover was in March or April, what was in the cup Jesus blessed at the Last Supper, francis?
---Cluny on 2/23/12

Grape juice
---francis on 2/23/12


\\That is why the bible places a premium on fresh drink
---francis on 2/23/12\\

Since the grape harvest was in August or September, and the Passover was in March or April, what was in the cup Jesus blessed at the Last Supper, francis?

Remember that when you crush grapes or any fruit, fermentation starts immediately.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/23/12


the Bible speaks ill of alcohol in some verses - and good of it in others.---StrongAxe on 2/23/12
Ok show me the good one for drinking

--Warwick on 2/23/12
Saw your comment, grapes are grapes, grapes from sodom are not in themselves poison, it is the alcohilic beverage which the bible speaks of

---andy3996 on 2/23/
Yes most fruit juices ferment
That is why the bible places a premium on fresh drink
---francis on 2/23/12


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francis:

Yes, the Bible speaks ill of alcohol in some verses - and good of it in others. You cannot just take one verse and build a theology out of it, but must instead look at the whole counsel of God - i.e. alcohol is dangerous, also has its uses. After all, God put alcohol on this earth for a reason.

Yesterday, I heard a program about fruit flies. There is a kind of wasp that lays its eggs in fruit flies. The eggs hatch, and eat their way out of the fly, killing it.

Fruit flies lay their eggs in ripe fruits, so they often hatch in a sea of alcohol, which protects them from the wasps. In fact, fruit flies infected by wasp larvae instinctively seek out alcohol to kill the wasps (and thus save their own lives).
---StrongAxe on 2/23/12


Francis in your passion to defend the indefensible you misquote Exodus 32:33. This verse speaks of a specific people whose "rock is not like our Rock" and whose vines come from Sodom which produce poisonous grapes, and wine. If this is, as you falsely claim, saying wine is poisonous then by the same word so are grapes.

I thought of you tonight as we celebrated a family birthday having a few glasses of a beautiful Shiraz, vintage 2007. And Christians all.
---Warwick on 2/23/12


francis, are you aware that natural "palmjuice ferments quite naturally within a few hours after its substraction? in a fact palmjuice keeps fermenting unti it is drunk. anyone trying to extract grapejuice naturally will find the same problem with grapes. for Jesus drinking unfermented grapejuice is just a fairy story made up by hollinesspreachers who like to lie so the people would accept thetruth, well i rather stick to the full truth, it is true that nowadays there is an overconsumption, of alcoholic beverages, and most do have "chemical alcohols added, that would be a good reason not to drink any of them ever. unless you live in Africa.
---andy3996 on 2/23/12


1Ti 5:23 No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.
---lee1538 on 2/22/12

Frequent ailments, frequent drinking of alcohol for frequent ailments?

Alcohol does not cure ANY stomach problems. But thick grape juice, and think palm juice does help with Ulcers


And by "bias" I was referring to ..."all alcohol is inherently evil"
---StrongAxe on 2/21/12
Speaking fo alcoholic wine, the bible says: Deuteronomy 32:33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.

Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, ..At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
---francis on 2/22/12


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One can never ignore the fact that Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his health problems.

1Ti 5:23 (No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)

Nor can we ignore the fact that Jesus Himself commanded us to drink wine in remembrance of the blood that was shed on our behalf.

Francis, you simply refuse to believe that there is no command found anywhere in the Bible not to drink wine. However, you do well not to be part of the problem we see in our society.
---lee1538 on 2/22/12


Francis, the context (Prov. 31:6) does not speak of two kinds of wine, or that wine has no alcohol or that strong drink is wine. The context is speaking of two poems "The wise King" 31:2-9) and "the excellent wife" (31:10-31) Both are the teachings of a godly mother (v.1). to King Lemuel, whom ancient Jewish tradition identified as King Solomon, but who is otherwise unknown. "Give strong drink to him who is perishing and wine to those who are heavy at heart" was to be given to those who were criminals ready to die, and those with severe pain. Intoxicating drinks can weaken reason and judgment, loosen convictions, or pervert the heart, so they don't suit rulers who need clear steady minds to use good judgment.
---Mark_V. on 2/22/12


francis:

Just because "grape juice is good", that doesn't automatically mean "alcoholic wine is bad".

And by "bias" I was referring to the all-to-common tee-totalling bias held by many evangelicals that "all alcohol is inherently evil" (and it is relatively new, since it seems to be only have emerged in the last century or two).
---StrongAxe on 2/21/12


Can you cite any corroboration to your claims that all the benefits are from non-alcoholic wine, and there are none from alcoholic wine, other than your own personal bias?
---StrongAxe on 2/20/12

To start with, it is not my bias

SEE Psychology Today: High on Grape Juice

See any American heart association writings on grape juice

many many articles by the AMA, and neurology journal

This has been very well researched
Grape juice : Anti oxident
thins blood,
increase brain nutrition
decraese HDL,
decrease risk of cardiac disease
all this without ETOH
---francis on 2/21/12


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Up till about 1880 all Christian denominations used fermented wine at the Lord's Supper. Who authorized the change?
---John.usa on 2/21/12


//If Jesus drank alcoholic wine, why don't Evangelicals use wine for their Lord's Supper instead of grape juice? That doesn't make sense.
---John.usa on 2/20/12
Wine is wine whether fermented or not.

However, some churches do indeed use real wine but to prevent possible problems from those who are addictive to alcohol, grape juice is often used instead.

I guess you really have to understand addiction to drugs such as alcohol to grasp the reason involved here.
---lee1538 on 2/20/12


If Jesus drank alcoholic wine, why don't Evangelicals use wine for their Lord's Supper instead of grape juice? That doesn't make sense.
---John.usa on 2/20/12


francis//Not one of the positive effects of wine are a result of ethenol in wine. Infact the benefts increases with pure grape juice ( WITHOUT THE ETOH)
---
And you may also say that it is impossible to have any nature juice of any fruit that does not have alcohol in it.

The ancients did not boil the alcohol out of the juice nor did they keep it under refrigeration. They did water it down to make it last longer.

I can only agree with Warwick, that 6 normal 24 hour days are really 6 normal 24 hour days in contrast to what we may have had in the beginning of Creation.
---lee1538 on 2/20/12


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francis:

Can you cite any corroboration to your claims that all the benefits are from non-alcoholic wine, and there are none from alcoholic wine, other than your own personal bias?

Proverbs 31:6
"Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts."

These refer to the anesthetic and mood-altering properties of alcohol, which are absent in grape juice. And you will have a much harder time convincing anyone that "strong drink" is non-alcoholic.
---StrongAxe on 2/20/12


francis//Not one of the positive effects of wine are a result of ethenol in wine. Infact the benefts increases with pure grape juice ( WITHOUT THE ETOH)
---
And you may also say that it is impossible to have any natural juice of any fruit that does not have alcohol in it.

The ancients did not boil the alcohol out of the juice nor did they keep it under refrigeration. They did water it down to make it last longer.

I can only agree with Warwick, that 6 normal 24 hour days are really 6 normal 24 hour days in contrast to what we may have had in the beginning of Creation.
---lee1538 on 2/20/12


Francis, Barnes, Clarke and Gill wrote their comments in the confidence that those reading would know that wine by definition is alcoholic. When people like yourself reinterpret words away from their correct meaning you demean Scripture. What you are doing is the same as those who say 6 days does not mean 6 days.
---Warwick on 2/20/12


Not one of the positive effects of wine are a result of ethenol in wine. Infact the benefts increases with pure grape juice ( WITHOUT THE ETOH)
---francis on 2/20/12


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---Warwick on 2/19/12
Great, I read all your answers.
None of them suggest that this is speaking about alcohol

I like this one:
As Clarke says "And wine - Wine, in moderate quantity, has a wondrous tendency to revive and invigorate the human being it makes him cheerful, and provides for the continuance of that cheerfulness by strengthening the muscles, and bracing the nerves.

This is exactly what grape juice does, and is the exact opposite of what alcohol does

Whereas grapejuice is a desired stimulant, alcohol is an undesirable depressant
---francis on 2/20/12


I'm surprised someone here took me seriously.
---John.usa on 2/19/12


Francis, "wine that gladdens the heart of man" means wine gladdens man's heart.

As Barnes says " literally, "And wine (it) gladdens the heart of man to make his face to shine more than oil...."

As Clarke says "And wine - Wine, in moderate quantity, has a wondrous tendency to revive and invigorate the human being it makes him cheerful, and provides for the continuance of that cheerfulness by strengthening the muscles, and bracing the nerves. This is its use. Those who continue drinking till wine inflames them, abase this mercy of God."

As Gill says "...wine, that has such a virtue in it, as to cheer the heart of man, even of a miserable, distressed, and afflicted man,"
---Warwick on 2/19/12


John.usa:

Yes, wine is a mocker - because people make foolish choices when drunk. There are many warnings about being drunk. But there are ALSO many positive comments about alcohol. If you believe only that one verse and not others, you reject part of the whole counsel of God. To make a doctrine based on a single verse is naive.

How do you know Jesus drank only juice? If "oionos" means both alcoholic wine and non-alcoholic juice, one can't be sure which it means anywhere - and assuming it must necessarily mean juice can only be based on one's theological bias (eisegesis) rather than from the context of the verse (exegesis).

Besides, the Pharisees wouldn't accuse him of being a wine-bibber for drinking juice.
---StrongAxe on 2/19/12


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Francis //Do you eat blood, or do you observe the dietary laws, and not eat blood?
---
There is virtually no restrictions in the Bible regarding what Christians may eat or drink,

Romans 14:2-3 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables.

Drink alcohol? Rarely but do not see anything against it if in moderation.

Only someone unknowledgeable of the teachings found in Scripture will say one commit a sin by what he drinks.

If alcoholic beverages were sinful, Paul would never had ordered Timothy to take a little wine once in a while for his stomach's sake.
(read 1 Tim 5:23).

And even a fool knows that wine was part of the diet in the Mediterranean area.
---lee1538 on 2/19/12


---Warwick

Psalm 104:14,15 He makes....wine that gladdens the heart of man..

Zechariah 10:7..and their hearts will be glad as with wine.

What exactly does it mean that their hearts will be glad with wine?

No one who has quoted this scripture has answered my simple question

Whatever your answer is insert it instead of "hearts will be glad"

Psalms 104:14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth, And wine that _____________of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.
---francis on 2/19/12


Francis you are blinded to reality. It is no point dealing with you from Scripture on this point because your mind is made up, and not from Scriptural information.

Wine by definition is alcoholic, a natural process which begins when the grapes are crushed. Take a bunch of unwashed grapes and crush them to juice and fermentation, creating alcohol, begins immediately. The white powdery substance visible on the skin of black grapes is yeast. Vintners wash this yeast off, adding, special yeast to get, for them, better results.

You would have us believe grape juice (though pleasant) gladdens the heart of man like wine. And makes man rejoice! To quote Deuteronomy 32:33 is ridiculous, read the whole chapter.
---Warwick on 2/18/12


The Bible says wine is a mocker. If you drink alcohoi it proves you are unsaved. Jesus only drank grape juice. That's why all true Christians only use grape juice for the Lord's Supper.
---John.usa on 2/18/12


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Zechariah 10:7 and their heart shall rejoice as through wine:
Psalms 104:15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man,.. and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.

This is not about alcohol that makes one drunk or tippsy at all. The bible considers wine that makes one drunk as: the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps. Deuteronomy 32:33

God did not give that to man at all. God never poisens man

This wine in Zechariah and psalms 104 is a drink that refreshes the body, quences the thirst and gives one a taste of the blessing of his labours.
The bread that gives strength and energy to continue in labour or adventure
---francis on 2/18/12


Francis read Zechariah 10 and you will see it concerns God blessing and restoring His people. And this will make them glad as drinking wine does.

Psalm 104:14,15 "You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth, and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen mans heart."

Notice how wine is included as a blessing along with "food from the earth, oil and bread."

I have no problem with those who do not drink wine. I do however object to those legalists who tell others they must not drink wine, which is a blessing from God.
---Warwick on 2/18/12


francis:

Agreed, ethanol does not ITSELF make wine taste good. However, with out ethanol, the yeast would continue to live and ferment the wine, and turn it all into vinegar. And vinegar tastes far worse than ethanol.

Second, wine generally tastes better after it has aged, not just freshly-squeezed grape juice.

Third, the better wine is served first, because the drinkers get intoxicated by it, so their ability to distinguish good wine from mediocre wine diminishes as the feast progresses.
---StrongAxe on 2/17/12


Wine is alcoholic by definition, Greek 'oinos' "the fermented juice of the grape" Bullinger 'A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to The English and Geeek New Testament.' "Wine Beverage made from fermented grapes....Scripture condemns drunkeness but pictured wine as a part of the typical ancient meal." Holman Bible Dictionary.

If anyone feels they should not drink wine, or play sport, or marry, they should follow their conscience. But it isn't anyones place to tell others they should also not do these things.

Francis you would have us believe those who consumed all the wine were then served grape juice (incorrectly called wine)and preferred it to real wine? Only a nonDrinker could say such a thing.
---Warwick on 2/17/12


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Psalm 104:14,15 He makes....wine that gladdens the heart of man..

Zechariah 10:7..and their hearts will be glad as with wine.
---Warwick on 2/17/12

What exactly does it mean that their hearts will be glad with wine?
---francis on 2/17/12


---StrongAxe on 2/16/12
Sorry ethenol is not what makes wine taste good. The species of grapes, the ratio of grape juice to water, but not ethenol. It may help preserve it, but as far as taste, no sorry.




Two, the wine was going to be consumed by wine drinkers at the feast and they would have known the difference.

Three, they were already drinking wine (they had run out) and would not consider new wine superior to what they were drinking.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/16/12
AHHH but they did know the difference and did consider it superior
John 2:10 thou hast kept the good wine until now
---francis on 2/17/12


I feel a little sad for those who do not enjoy good wine, but that's their choice.

Psalm 104:14,15 He makes....wine that gladdens the heart of man..

Zechariah 10:7..and their hearts will be glad as with wine.

Numbers 6:2,3 ,"When either a man or woman consecrates an offering to take the vow of a Nazirite,.....he shall separate himself from wine and similar drink, he shall drink neither vinegar made from wine nor vinegar made from similar drink, neither shall he drink any grape juice, nor eat fresh grapes or raisins."

This verse demonstrates that wine is wine (alcoholic) and grape juice is juice, and those taking the vow were not to partake of anything to do with grapes, whether alcoholic or not.
---Warwick on 2/17/12


The miracle at cana is pointing to Jesus' hour. At the wedding his " hour had not yet come." In Gethsemane his hour had come, it was now time to give the good wine. HIS BLOOD.

It is pointed to People having the worse first and then the better. The old covenant first and then the new covenant built on better promises.

Also if we believe that the first wine had ethenol in it (which very few doubt) Then the guest at the wedding had their fill of alcohol. It would seem irresponsible of the Son of God to produce an adition 125 galons of alcohol to an already drunken people

therefor that wine contained no ethenol. It had to be pure wine as is the blood of Jesus
---francis on 2/17/12


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francis:

You said: But What Jesus made could NEVER have had alcohol. It did represent his blood,

This is a pure assumption based on your particular theological bias. Basically, you are assuming the conclusion, and from this, deciding on which premises must be valid or not.

If Jesus was ever bothered by the idea that wine could ferment, he would never have used it as a type of his blood, that presumably can never spoil. But that didn't seem to bother him.

Also Alcohol is NOT what makes wine good. Type of grape yes, Alcohol never

Alcohol kills the yeast and keeps it from turning the wine into vineger, so, yes, it is an ESSENTIAL part of what makes wine good.
---StrongAxe on 2/16/12


But What Jesus made could NEVER have had alcohol. It did represent his blood,
---francis on 2/15/12

I am sorry, but all your comparisons are blocking your understanding of a very simple story.

Three facts in the story contradict your understanding.

First, as a wine drinker, I can tell the difference between wine and new wine (grape juice). I am sure in the story of John 2, the master of the feast could also tell the difference.

Two, the wine was going to be consumed by wine drinkers at the feast and they would have known the difference.

Three, they were already drinking wine (they had run out) and would not consider new wine superior to what they were drinking.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/16/12


Even those who do not think drinking alchol is wrong teach that getting drunk is. Go with your friends but be the designated driver. Since even one drink can impare your judgement and lead to an accident.

I know too well the effects of alchol. It should be treated like any other drug that has the purpose of making men stupid and encourages them to do dumb things that can lead to death.
---Samuel on 2/15/12


---Mark_Eaton on 2/15/12
No doubt that some wine had aocohol in it. But What Jesus made could NEVER have had alcohol. It did represent his blood, Also Alcohol is NOT what makes wine good. Type of grape yes, Alcohol never


So temple wine and Cana wine would have been fermented.
---StrongAxe on 2/15/12
NO! temple wine could NOT be fermented:
Isaiah 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster
Nehemiah 13:12 Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries.

They had to bring fresh grape juice. priest were forbiden to drink alcohol Leviticus 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink
---francis on 2/15/12


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Alcohol is fine unless it causes you to do something to harm others. This is not what the Bible says, but what seems logical. The simple act of drinking is just an "unhealthy" choice and would be as wrong as eating unhealthy or not exercising.

But, if drinking causes you to do and think things that might be detrimental to you and those you come in contact with, it might not be a good idea.
---Jason_Varner on 2/15/12


The point at which sober-minded becomes alcohol-minded varies, and drunkenness is unholy and cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Because the amount of alcohol is a diverse amount to each individual, generally if an individual is small then a small amount will cause damage or intoxication, and if an individual is large then a larger amount will cause damage or intoxication. So to avoid any possible intoxication a Christian would do better to drink nonalcoholic beverages with friends rather than to drink alcoholic beverages with friends.
---Eloy on 2/15/12


Keeping in mind that the use of wine in the sancuary is a "type" of christ blood. SO the miracle of Cana could never have been fermented wine.
---francis on 2/15/12

I cannot agree with this.

John 2:10 "and *said to him, 'Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine, but you have kept the good wine until now."

The "drunk freely" in the verse above is translated "to be drunken" in five other Biblical passages.

Also, the statement is logical when the wine is intoxicating and makes little sense when grape juice is substituted for wine.

The wine was cleary fermented and intoxicating.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/15/12


francis:

And just what about this context tells us?

The Bible says alcohol is sometimes bad, sometimes good.

To properly interpret scripture, one should use exegesis: read what the passage says, and based on that, develop doctrine.

You are doing the reverse, eisegesis: assuming doctrine based on your own theological biases, and retroactively interpreting what scripture "must" have meant.

Regardless of any theology you may wish to extrapolate from the passages in question, the simple fact remains that in hot climates, wine ferments the moment it is squeezed. There's no such thing as unfermented line that last for any appreciable time. So temple wine and Cana wine would have been fermented.
---StrongAxe on 2/15/12


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John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine, and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

God have the " worse: wine first. That being the blood of bulls and goats. ANd saved thegood wine, " THE BLOOD OF JESUS" until now.
So that those who understood the use of wine in the sanctuary service would understand the miracle and the lord's supper


Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

So the wine was indeed a shadow of the blood of Jesus. That wine could never have been fermented. It had to be pure
---francis on 2/15/12


How can you tell, from context, whether oinos means fermented wine or unfermented juice? ---StrongAxe on 2/14/12
Well it is in context that we can tell. It is also based on everything that the bible has to say about the use of alcohol.
Keeping in mind that the use of wine in the sancuary is a "type" of christ blood. SO the miracle of Cana could never have been fermented wine.

John 2:4 mine hour is not yet come.
John 17:1 Father, the hour is come,

When His hour came, he gave the true wine: His blood
---francis on 2/15/12


francis:

You asked: how does bread " strengthen the heart?"

It's simple, really. Have you ever been REALLY hungry, or close to starvation? It's hard to be cheerful, or even focus on other important things when you need to devote all your energy on where your next meal is going to come from, or when your stomach is constantly screaming at you "feed me soon or I'm going to die!".
---StrongAxe on 2/15/12


Strongaxe, you hit the answer very well again when you said,

"As in all things, we must use discretion and wisdom. We must typically rely on our own wisdom to make decisions (since we are not telepaths), but the ramifications of those decisions will ultimately be judged by God.
---StrongAxe on 2/13/12"


We should never become legalist. Having others live life by laws. We are born of God, indwelled by the Holy Spirit. And free in relation to sin. We will be judge by our motives. That is why our decisions are so important. Nothing wrong with anything, when the intention of the heart is right with God. Too much of anything is bad, food, drink, money, strong drink, smoking, eating, etc.
---Mark_V. on 2/15/12


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And wine that makes glad the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread which strengthens man's heart (Psalm 104:14, 15).
---NurseRobert on 2/13/12

What does " make glad the heart" mean?

how does bread " strengthen the heart?"
---francis on 2/14/12


francis:

In warm climates, water contains parasites fermented wine does not. Don't drink water in Mexico!

You said: in hebrew there are two distinct words for grape juice and alcohol, while in Greek itis one word for both

How can you tell, from context, whether oinos means fermented wine or unfermented juice? And I am curious how anyone in the middle east 2000 years ago could keep grape juice from fermenting even a few days without refrigeration?

Prohibitions are frequently conditional:

Numbers 10:9: Priests must not drink on duty.
Numbers 6:3: A Nazarite must not touch wine, strong drink, or grapes.
Proverbs 31:4: Wine and strong drink are not for kings and princes.
---StrongAxe on 2/14/12


As in all things, we must use discretion and wisdom. We must typically rely on our own wisdom to make decisions (since we are not telepaths), but the ramifications of those decisions will ultimately be judged by God.
---StrongAxe on 2/13/12

Thank you. Rebuke taken and applied.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/14/12


Francis... just for you.

He causes the grass to grow for the cattle, and vegetation for the service of man, that he may bring forth food from the earth. And wine that makes glad the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread which strengthens man's heart (Psalm 104:14, 15).
---NurseRobert on 2/13/12


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Wine is actually recommended for an upset stomach, and strong drink is recommended for those near death.
---StrongAxe on 2/13/12
Anesthesia for those in pain. Agreed

But it is never recomended for any stomach disease. Pure grape or palm juice is what paul is speaking for ulcers.

I always ask, if this young preacher has stomach problems OFTEN and he drinks alcohol for it often what will happen often?

1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Keep in mind in hebrew there are two distinct words for grape juice and alcohol, while in Greek itis one word for both
---francis on 2/13/12


francis:

Yes, definitely. People deceived by ANYTHING are not wise. However, wine and strong drink are NOT always described as being bad - only when they are abused (i.e. leading to drunkenness), which unfortunately happens a lot.

Wine is actually recommended for an upset stomach, and strong drink is recommended for those near death.


Mark_Eaton:

As in all things, we must use discretion and wisdom. We must typically rely on our own wisdom to make decisions (since we are not telepaths), but the ramifications of those decisions will ultimately be judged by God.
---StrongAxe on 2/13/12


Mark Eaton: The wife was asking specifically about the alcohol issue in her post.
---Trish on 2/13/12

I guess you cannot read between the lines either.

Let me ask you this, if you asked your pastor "Is it fine for a married man to go out with friends and have a few drinks" what do you think that say to your pastor about your relationship with your husband?

What do you think is the first question your pastor would ask you in return?

I think it would go something like this: are you asking in relationship to your husband's actions?
---Mark_Eaton on 2/13/12


Proverbs 20:1 Wine [is] a mocker, strong drink [is] raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
---francis on 2/13/12


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Mark Eaton: The wife was asking specifically about the alcohol issue in her post.
---Trish on 2/13/12


There is nothing wrong with a few drinks, as long as he is not getting drunk. Moderation in all things is the key.
---Trish on 2/13/12


This is balance. As long as the husband isn't neglecting his wife to go out with his friends, or getting drunk, it should be fine.
---StrongAxe on 2/13/12

Really? In who's opinion does the balance lie in, his, his wife's, or God's?

If the wife is asking us for our opinions, there must be a balance issue and the man is stating that it is all right. If everything was in balance, the wife would not be asking us. She would be alright with it. But she is not and is looking for people with more objective opinions.

I suspect the wife is already feeling neglected but does not know what to do. She has already mentioned it to her husband and he has explained with your opinion.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/13/12


Mark_Eaton:

You said: A married man's priorities are God, wife, family, career, friends.

Right. Not "God, wife, family, career, period." He must spend time with God, THEN wife, THEN family, THEN job, THEN friends.

"love your wives", NOT "a single thought for yourself means you neglect your wife". Some people believe that - they tend to be insecure, selfish, and clingy. Jesus's said "love your neighbor as yourself" not "MORE than yourself".

In any healthy relationship, people need time together - and time apart. This is balance. As long as the husband isn't neglecting his wife to go out with his friends, or getting drunk, it should be fine.
---StrongAxe on 2/13/12


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Tessa:

Are you asking about your husband? Did he tell you that the Bible says its okay for him to do this?

Let me tell you what a husband is supposed to do...

Eph 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her"

I see nothing in this verse that says I can be selfish and disregard my wife to go out with friends and have a "few" drinks.

A married man's priorities are God, wife, family, career, friends.

It seems this man has his priorities in the wrong order.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/13/12


Tessa, I'm surprise Cluny did not mention this but I will. The word "Can" is ability. You do have the ability to go out with friends and have a few drinks. Whether you should or not is another matter.
---Mark_V. on 2/13/12


Alcohol in moderation is not wrong in itself.

But why is he going somewhere without his wife?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/13/12


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