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Did Eve Use Her Free Will

Genesis 3:3, "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

When being interpreted by some becomes, "And Eve using her 'free will' believe in the lie." Is that the true message?

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Aka, your not hearing. If you had ears to hear and eyes to see, you would know the Truth. That God is God of heaven and earth and has chosen some for heaven and the rest He allows to follow the course they are in. Those He has chosen are the elect. If you have another God then you don't have the right One and have been following a god you created in your mind. My God is sovereign who knows the beginning and the end, and you cannot change nothing with your fee will. You and others speak for the power of man and his free will, but on your knees when you pray you are a pure calvinist, because when you pray you ask God to save your sons or daughters or wives, why? Because you know in your heart only He can do the work of salvation if He chooses to.
---Mark_V. on 2/20/12


Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold [the man] is become [hyh-H:1961] as one of Us to know good and evil, and Now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:---Aposiopesis = Sudden silence

It is for this reason they were taken out of the graden.
and Now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:---
Gen3:23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So He drove out the man,...
---char on 2/19/12


Faith: Elohyim has provided the way-Back-[Y'sha].
Hearing [His Word]--not the words of man[anti].
Hearing the Word of God produces faith.
Rom10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

In this world-[adam-adamah-man] must seek-Truth.
In a Kingdom who lives in the kingdom? All residence of the domain.
Are all soldiers, commanders, Chief etc? No.
Gods army is in perfect order-not all believers are the elect chosen for a purpose.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse:
---char on 2/19/12


II Cor 11:3 "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

He did not create Eve to fall for the subtility of the serpent. She was deceived.

I commanded thee, saying, 'Thou shalt not eat of it

He would not command them not to do something he created them to do in the first place.
God allowed the serpent to tempt [mankind-spirit in flesh] so they could chose.
[Incompleteness-chaos] is not Gods plan nor origin --- Completeness is.
Spirit housed in flesh is incomplete - process of elimination-who will you serve?
The path way Back? Repentance brings [Remission]
---char on 2/19/12


In this world-[adam of adamah-man] must seek-Truth.
Hearing Only His Word [Ysha]--not the words of man [anti].
Jn 8:51
Rom10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and [hearing] by the Word of God.

Who lives in the kingdom? ---The King and residence of His domain.
What of His army? Are all soldiers, commanders, Chief? --- No.
Gods army with different ranks - is in perfect order. 2Kgs 6:17
Not all believers were selected for the purpose that only the elect are chosen for.
Mk 13 (all)
11[] take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is Not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit.
---char on 2/19/12




//Aka/Jed, right time for both of you to take time out to make remarks,// i have before...repeatedly ignored or sidestepped.
//but both of you have no idea what it means to be one of the Elect.// as you see it.
//God knows who the elect are.// then, why do you keep trying to explain what only God knows.
//faith comes from hearing the Word of God. God gives the elect faith through His Word.// milk
//everyone of the elect is born lost just like everyone else.// how can one who is already saved be lost?
//you are here making remarks of things you don't understand// begs my original ?
//instead of studying what you don't understand about God first.// presumption on your part
//your priorities are wrong.// partisan judgement
---aka on 2/19/12


christan* "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

And how did Jesus you say to be born again 'Water and Spirit"=Baptism

christan* Paul did say, "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Does He show mercy to all of mankind? No, only to His elect.

Who are the elect," Those who endure till the end" You would need to wait till the end if you survive the cut:)
---Ruben on 2/19/12


MarkV, okay I get it, you're one of those "elect" theorists. That explains it. You don't even understand the begginning basics of salvation. You have no business telling others to get saved, when you don't even know how yourself.
---Jed on 2/19/12


AMEN, Christian. Thank you for backing me up. You're a true Christian!
---John.usa on 2/19/12


Gen 3:6 This literally describes the steps Satan uses to lure, tempt, entice, ensnare, seduce some away from the truth.
Gen 3:6 saw [...]pleasant to the eyes,[...] desired to make one wise
she took [...] and he did eat."
Gen 3:17 [] Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife

It does not say, God made them do these things.

This [ is ] the whole essence of choice.
Garden of Eden: both tree of life [Christ] and the tree of knowledge of good and evil [serpent]
Rev 12:9, "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world,"
---char on 2/19/12




christan* "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ", does it imply anyone can believe by their "free-will"?

Yes, "Many therefore of his disciples , hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it?(JHN 6:60)-"After this many of his disciples went back, and walk no more with him ."(JHn 6:67)

christan* "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44 -

No, the next verse tell us who are the ones he draws." Every one that hath heard of the Father, and hath learned, cometh to me."v45- Those who 'listen and 'learn' go to him.
---Ruben on 2/19/12


This is Scripture confirming Scripture. Our understanding becomes questionable, not Scriptures.
---christan on 2/18/12

" Search the scripture , for you think in them to have life everlasting, and the same are they that give testimony of me. And you will not come to me that you may have life."( Jhn 5:39-40)

Remember scripture confirms scripture :)
---Ruben on 2/19/12


"As with all of us, Eve only did what God had already planned for her to do. Since God knows everything in advance, He had to have planned everything in advance. That includes all the posts on ChristiaNet, and also your salvation or lack of it." John.usa

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"
Romans 9:14,19-21
---christan on 2/18/12


Gen 3:6 [...]when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and the tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat."
Gen 3:17 [...]unto Adam He said, "Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying,'Thou shalt not eat of it:' cursed is the ground for thy sake, in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of of thy life,"
Gen 3:22 [...]Lord God said, "Behold, the man is become as one of Us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:-"
---char on 2/19/12


Aka/Jed, this might seem like the right time for both of you to take time out to make remarks, but both of you have no idea what it means to be one of the Elect. First, I never said Ruben was not one of the Elect. Second only God knows who the elect are. Third, faith comes from hearing the Word of God. God gives the elect faith through His Word. Forth, everyone of the elect is born lost just like everyone else.
When I said to devote your life completely to Christ doesn't mean he is not an elect. Many like you don't devote completely to God because you are here making remarks of things you don't understand, instead of studying what you don't understand about God first. Your priorities are wrong.
---Mark_V. on 2/19/12


I think that the reason some people accept Calvinism is because they do not see any possible way that a person can "change", from the way they currectly are, into anything better as God commands all flesh to repent and to be changed from a fallen condition to a lifted condition, from being lost to being found, from being condemned to being saved. It is too easy for a person to resign, "I cannot change, I must remain a sinner and persecute the Christians, and there is no way for me to be good." But God the Parent commands us, "You Be Good, You Be Holy, You Be Righteous." Therefore for a sinner to reply, "I cannot, for you made me imperfect and to be disobedient, and I cannot help it", is a lie.
---Eloy on 2/19/12


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why are you telling Rueben to devote himself to the Lord and memorize scriptures. Don't you know he doesn't have control over what he does? If he is not devoted to the Lord, it's because God makes him be that way, right?
---Jed on 2/18/12

i cannot understand why the 'elite' keep telling us to do this or to understand that...under calvanism WE DO NOT HAVE THAT CHOICE.
---aka on 2/18/12


MarkV, why are you telling Rueben to devote himself to the Lord and memorize scriptures. Don't you know he doesn't have control over what he does? If he is not devoted to the Lord, it's because God makes him be that way, right?
*****

obvious contradiction and borderline sadistic to tell people who GOD has made to be undevoted to study all for nothing and you have "inside" knowledge and understand "God made them that way"!

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, Notice Christ inspired John to record overcome in Rev 2:26 to overcome requires free will ...there would be NOTHING to overcome if one is already programmed to be victorious with a pre-determined outcome...even Christ does not know WHO will overcome
---Rhonda on 2/18/12


the first woman was not forced to eat of the tree. Instead, like a sly salesman the serpent persuaded the woman that she was lacking the fruit, and that she should have the forbidden fruit for herself and then her life would become better and having every fruit in the garden. So after listening to the the father of lies, his lies seemed right to her, and therefore she freely and of her own volition reached and took of that fruit which God clearly commanded her and Adam not to eat, and she did eat with the serpents lie and her delusion that she would become like God.
---Eloy on 2/18/12


Cluny: "How do you know that just as God made Adam and Eve to be damned, He didn't make YOU to be damned, either?"

I've never met a predestinationalist who thinks he is in the "lost" pile. They always seem to be in the "saved" pile. You'd think that by the law of averages, about half of them would be "lost". Go figure.


---jerry6593 on 2/18/12


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Ruben, too bad that the Holy Spirit doesn't write the way you want when you mocked, "Paul must had miss that memo! Even if He did, you still cannot believe because Christ said, "It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." confirming that, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Paul did say, "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Does He show mercy to all of mankind? No, only to His elect. All said and done, when a man's heart is hardened, God is the one who hardens it.
---christan on 2/18/12


As with all of us, Eve only did what God had already planned for her to do. Since God knows everything in advance, He had to have planned everything in advance. That includes all the posts on ChristiaNet, and also your salvation or lack of it.
---John.usa on 2/18/12


MarkV, why are you telling Rueben to devote himself to the Lord and memorize scriptures. Don't you know he doesn't have control over what he does? If he is not devoted to the Lord, it's because God makes him be that way, right?
---Jed on 2/18/12


Excellent scripture, Ruben!
---JackB on 2/18/12


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"And remember, Scripture confirms Scripture not contradict." Ruben: Where does scripture say this?

Through the words of everyone who claims to witness and testify the Word of God, including myself. That is, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ", does it imply anyone can believe by their "free-will"?

Listen to Christ's declaration,"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44 - obviously those who "believe, have been drawn by the Father" which makes the "free-will" a lie.

This is Scripture confirming Scripture. Our understanding becomes questionable, not Scriptures.
---christan on 2/18/12


Ruben, I know you are a good guy, but you have listened to too many Catholic doctrines and are confused. If you devoted yourself to the Lord, whole heartedly you would throw away everything, begin by looking up every passage that speaks about who God is, His nature, Character and Atributes, and memorize them. Because He never changes. And when you find a passage that seems to say something against who God is, you have it wrong. For He is the same yesterday, today and forever. No one has power over God, no one. At the end, it will be as He willed it to be, as He has told us, nothing will change. He planned it, He executes it. Not one thing will change.
---Mark_V. on 2/18/12


"Who willed that disobedience make someone a sinner?" God did. He could have made His plan so that we never fail, but He didn't. He willed it would be through Adam and not Eve or satan. He could have willed no tree of good and evil be there, but He will that it would. For He is God.
---Mark_V. on 2/17/12


Paul must had miss that memo! He told the Christians at Corinthians " But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:2-3)
Shouldn't he had said 'although God willed that Adam and Eve disobey and he will do the same to you?'
---Ruben on 2/17/12


Jack B, if you woke up every morning for the glory of God your intentions would be for good...--MarkV

Im simply appalled that you would be so arrogant to make such a comment. You know nothing of my Christian life other than I do not believe the same doctrine you do. This type of presumptuous condescending attitude is exactly what gets you so many disrespectful remarks in return. Ive often wondered why Kathr and a few others here are so hostile towards you. Now Im beginning to understand.

It seems you like to put words in others mouths and accuse them of things which you have NO knowledge of.
Thats typically what people do when they are running out of arguments and are trapped in a corner.
---JackB on 2/17/12


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Jim, you are right, there is a contrast in Scripture, but there is a flaw in your hermenutics between the sinners and the saints. That contrast you speak of is so that when a believer read the word he can understand those "set apart" and those sinners still lost. But that in no way changes the fact that we do sin, or that we are not sinners. We are set apart in Scripture so you can understand the difference between the two. If the writers of Scripture did not do that, you would never know whom he was referring to. Sometimes they don't make the distinction, so you are left to wonder, but if you read many other passges, they will bring light to the passage that does not have the contrast or distinction.
---Mark_V. on 2/17/12


//Is that the true message?//

do you mean that i have a choice?
---aka on 2/17/12


JIM, a sinner commits sin, period. There's no other meaning for sinner as you would like to suggest. Everyone according to Scripture is born dead in sins and trespasses because of the Fall, the nature of the sinner is to sin. You call it "devoted", I call it natural.

The difference between the believer and unbeliever is one is born of the Spirit and the other isn't. The one born of the Spirit (aka believer) will struggle with his sin in the flesh while still walking on this earth, whereas the unbeliever doesn't.

It's true that the believer has their sins crucified in Christ at Calvary as compared to the unbeliever. But that should not make them think that the sins they commit are any different from the unbeliever.
---christan on 2/17/12


"Both had choices, which is the point I was making."

Ruben, you have exposed yourself that you are completely void of the very very knowledge of who Jesus is and who Adam was. I will use Scripture to assist, "The first man was of the earth, made of dust, the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 1 Corinthians 15:47. See the difference? One's made of DUST and the other from HEAVEN.

"Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me, nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done." Luke 22:42 - whose will was Jesus Christ following?

Whereas for you, "it is my will, not yours be done". See how blasphemous the "free-will" is?
---christan on 2/17/12


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"How do you know that just as God made Adam and Eve to be damned, He didn't make YOU to be damned, either?" Cluny

"Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. Matthew 6:10, "But our God is in heaven, He does whatever He pleases." Psalm 115:3, "Whatever the Lord pleases He does, In heaven and in earth. Psalm 135:6

"All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing,
He does according to His will in the army of heaven, And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, What have You done?"
Daniel 4:35
---christan on 2/17/12


Hi Jim. I have always liked your answers, but greatly disagree with this part of Scripture...Mark V

Mark..The contrast here is between sinners and those who practice righteouness.
---JIM on 2/17/12


so what about those who died in waco tx & jonestown? they obeyed but it was too late. many say that obey god & we will be blessed. many obeyed but they did not get the blessings or they still suffered.
what about OTHER verses like healing on the sabbath. pharisees condemned healing on the sabbath but christ did it anyway. ???
what about tithe? many obeyed but the only people blessed are pastors & televangelist.??
eve's story is always used to trap people.
are we ROBOTS?
---mike on 2/17/12


Hi Jim. I have always liked your answers, but greatly disagree with this part of Scripture.

(1 Peter 3:12) Peter here employed apt scriptural conformation of His exhortation in (v.9) by quoting (Ps. 34:12-16). As believers we are righteous before God, by the imputation of Christ righteousness and not by anything in us or anything we have done. The requirements of the fulfilled life include a humble, and loving attitude toward everyone (v.8) a non-vinditive response toward revilers (v.9) pure and honest speech (v. 10), a destain for sin and pursuit of peace (v. 11) and a right motive to work. To work the righteousness of Christ that pleases the Omniscient Lord (v.12) Matt. 5:38-48: Rom. 12:14,17: 1 Cor. 4:12: 5:11: 1 Thess. 5:15).
---Mark_V. on 2/17/12


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christan* We know Faith (to believe God) is a gift from God which A & E never received.

Why would they need faith, if God breath on the nostril of Adam and took a rib out of him to form Eve? They saw and Talk to God, is this what you been taught get out, while there is time?

christan* For if they'd received it, they would have believed in God's command, "for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die".

Really, they had no sin at that time, why give them a choice?

christan* "Who then can be saved? With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Had they listen to God, we would not be in this perdicament would we?
---Ruben on 2/17/12


**"What hope does that leave for YOU, christan?"

The Grace and Mercy of God through Faith in Jesus Christ.
---christan on 2/17/12**

How do you know that just as God made Adam and Eve to be damned, He didn't make YOU to be damned, either?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/17/12


christan* Ruben, Romans 5:19 speaks of Adam's disobedience and Christ's obedience.

Both had choices, which is the point I was making.

christan* and not those whom God hates.

And he hates those who disobey!

christan* Read Romans in whole from chapters 1 to 16, and hopefully you'll understand it all in proper context

You mean like (Romans 6:12-13,16)-(8:12-13)-(11:20-22)

christan *and not pluck one verse here and there to justify your "free-will".

Were you looking in the mirror when you wrote this?:)

christan* And remember, Scripture confirms Scripture not contradict.

Where does scripture say this?
---Ruben on 2/17/12


Christan/Mark V....1 Peter 3:12 says: The eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and His ears are open to their prayers but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.......
Which are you in this verse?
Let me ask you both a question.
When you look in the mirror, do you see a Child of God or a wicked heathen who is devoted and practices sin?
---JIM on 2/17/12


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Jack B, if you woke up every morning for the glory of God your intentions would be for good. But your intentions and many others come from the flesh otherwise your answers would not be sinful. All who follow us just to argue, proofs the emnity between man and God. For you guys look for holes in what we say only to argue against us, and the Truth is lost on purpose. From the time you wake up, sin awakes with you. You think Rubens right?

"Who willed that disobedience make someone a sinner?" God did. He could have made His plan so that we never fail, but He didn't. He willed it would be through Adam and not Eve or satan. He could have willed no tree of good and evil be there, but He will that it would. For He is God.
---Mark_V. on 2/17/12


How many people in this world even acknowledge they have sinned against God. Take a look at yourself as an example // Christan

Christian...if a Believer sins that does not classify him as a sinner. It is obvious you do not understand the meaning of a sinner. A sinner is devoted to sinning. They habitually practice sin.......Is this you? I hope not.
---JIM on 2/17/12


God willed that Adam and Eve be in unbelief and not because they "free-willed" themselves to disobedience. How'd you like that?
---christan on 2/14/12


You guys are hurting yourselves. Reuben just proved you dead wrong about your assumption using scripture. What will your response be? "It doesnt really mean what is says"?

DISobedience is acting out in opposition to the will of God! Even a little child knows this.

If God creates DISobedience then there is nothing to judge anyone for. We are simply pawns on his chess board and He is a sadist.

That is NOT Jesus Christ! Look at the gospels again!
---JackB on 2/17/12


"What hope does that leave for YOU, christan?"

The Grace and Mercy of God through Faith in Jesus Christ.
---christan on 2/17/12


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"I too am sorry that you think of yourself as a sinner." JIM

MarkV's acknowledgement that he's still a sinner is evidence of the Faith that God has given to him. How many people in this world even acknowledge they have sinned against God. Take a look at yourself as an example.

Ruben, Romans 5:19 speaks of Adam's disobedience and Christ's obedience. And I assure you that "many shall be made just" implies only to God's elect and not those whom God hates. Read Romans in whole from chapters 1 to 16, and hopefully you'll understand it all in proper context and not pluck one verse here and there to justify your "free-will".

And remember, Scripture confirms Scripture not contradict.
---christan on 2/16/12


\\God willed that Adam and Eve be in unbelief and not because they "free-willed" themselves to disobedience. How'd you like that?
---christan on 2/14/12 \\

IOW, God created A & E without free will simply to be disobedient and be damned.

Do I understand you right?

What hope does that leave for YOU, christan?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/16/12


God willed that Adam and Eve be in unbelief and not because they "free-willed" themselves to disobedience. How'd you like that?
---christan on 2/14/12

Really:

Romans 5:19
"For as by the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners, so also by the obedience of one, many shall be made just."
---Ruben on 2/16/12


Mark V..I too am sorry that you think of yourself as a sinner. Work on that faith thing alittle more and you will come to relize that we are Saints,Children of God,Brethren,joint heirs with Christ,Elect of God and many many more, but never a sinner.

Also, you might want to dig a little deeper into 1 john. You were right in that he was talking to believers, but he was not talking about believers. Do alittle research on that,ok.
---JIM on 2/16/12


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"understanding I guess you think you successfully covered up your MISUSE of Rom 11:32 by DEMANDING more Scripture" Rhonda

And if I have misused Romans 11:32, maybe you would like to help us understand your own version of what it means?

Yes, Paul was referring to Israel and their disobedience in this chapter. It was God's will that He "committed them all to disobedience", don't you think that anyone else who's in disobedience is because God has willed it? That this was only referring to Israel? The whole world is in disobedience!

I've shown you a verse that your precious "free-will" does not exist and you still have not shown a Scripture to support your "free-will".
---christan on 2/16/12


"There is a big difference between being a sinner (one who is a devoted to sinning) and comitting a sin." JIM

Here, "There is a big difference between being a criminal and committing a crime." All I know is when anyone commits a crime, he's called a criminal, right? So is one called a sinner because he has sinned against God.

Just because your spirit is alive in Christ (are you sure?), you're telling us your sins are different from an unbeliever? Really? In theological terms, this is called antinomianism.

Sin is what God uses to sanctify the Christian, hence Romans 7. If I'm exhibiting weak faith, you're exhibiting the trampling of God's grace before unbelievers with your attitude.
---christan on 2/16/12


"But why would God warn them not to eat 'fruit of the tree'?" Ruben

Obedience to God only happens when He works His glorious Grace in the man. True that Adam & Eve were created sinless. We know Faith (to believe God) is a gift from God which A & E never received. For if they'd received it, they would have believed in God's command, "for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die".

God's Grace through Faith was never given to A & E, henced they disobeyed causing the Fall. All A & E posterity comes into this world in sin. Christ told His disciples when questioned,

"Who then can be saved? With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
---christan on 2/16/12


...show us the Holy Scripture that says the very words you claim "GOD gives mankind free will".
*****

in other words you have twisted Romans 11:32 to serve your denominational lie and now you want people to show you Holy Scriptures that prove God gives mankind free will?

if you cannot comprehend the teachings within Romans 11 and understand how you MISUSED Rom 11:32 then what is it you believe would help you understand Gods Truth of free will?

"babblings" would be YOURS seeing it was you who ignored Gods Truth from Romans 11 that I shared ...by dodging the CORRECT understanding I guess you think you successfully covered up your MISUSE of Rom 11:32 by DEMANDING more Scripture
---Rhonda on 2/16/12


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Jim, I'm sorry you feel you are not a sinner. Before God sin is still sin. And one who sins is a sinner.
We've been set free and no longer practice it. We are spiritually alive to Christ, but the flesh has not been redeemed and will die because of sin.
In (1 John) is speaking to believers from (v.1-). (v. 6) "If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the Truth" Now listen concerning the Truth (v. 8)
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the Truth is not in us" So if the Truth is in you, you will say you have sin, that you are a sinner. If you don't you only deceive yourself and the Truth (Christ) is not in you.
---Mark_V. on 2/16/12


"those who DENY GOD gives mankind free will will stop at nothing to distort any Holy Scripture to "fit" their LIE." Rhonda

Again, please show us the Holy Scripture that says the very words you claim "GOD gives mankind free will". I am still waiting patiently for those words from the Scripture. So instead of babbling over and over like a scratch record, just present the Scripture.

I assure you that you are not going to find it anywhere in the Holy Bible that says "GOD gives mankind free will". BUT, you could prove me wrong.

If you can't, guess who is distorting the Holy Scripture to "fit" their LIE. Those very words of yours is coming back to bite you.
---christan on 2/16/12


Christan...No where did i say i did not sin. A sinner is someone who is devoted to sin. Someone not free from sin.You being a believer have died to sin. Sin has no power over you. We are dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
You speak of romans 7. you need to continue your reading to Romans 8.
Also, john in 1 john was not talking about believers. He was talking to believers about the gnostics and false teaching going on. There were people among them who thought they were with out sin.


---JIM on 2/16/12


Does Scripture teach believers they will stop sinning when they receive the gift of Faith?..Christan

There is a big difference between being a sinner(one who is a devoted to sinning) and comitting a sin.
If you are in Christ your body is dead because of sin, but your spirit is alive because of righteousness. We are made righteous through our faith in Christ.
I feel you are exibiting weak faith.
---JIM on 2/16/12


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christan* God willed that Adam and Eve be in unbelief and not because they "free-willed" themselves to disobedience.

But why would God warn them not to eat 'fruit of the tree'? Then tell the Serpent, Adam and Eve their faith in life?

And why would Paul warn the Christians but Eve:

"2 Corinthians 11:2-3 " But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. "

christan* But man will still be held responsible for their actions. How'd you like that?

If man was already in unbelief by God, how are they responsible for their actions?
---Ruben on 2/16/12


Mark V..Jim, hi, let me say, I confess I am a sinner saved by the grace of God. He has forgiven me.

Brother....you can consider yourself a sinner if you want to, but i was a sinner saved by Gods awesome grace.

Mark V...Are you devoted to sinning? If not, you are not a sinner. sure, we may sin, but we are not devoted to sinning . We do not practice sinning. A big difference.
---JIM on 2/16/12


"Mark V//We sin because we are sinners. I hope you are not talking about believers." JIM

Does Scripture teach believers they will stop sinning when they receive the gift of Faith?

John admonished the Christians, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." 1 John 1:8-10

Paul struggled with sin even after being called into the Lord's glorious grace and wrote Romans 7 to admonish the Christians.

You seriously want to tell us that you have stopped sinning?
---christan on 2/16/12


"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Romans 11:32 ...Plain and simple, God willed that Adam and Eve be in unbelief and not because they "free-willed"
******

those who DENY GOD gives mankind free will will stop at nothing to distort any Holy Scripture to "fit" their LIE

Rom 11:32 does not allude to Adam or Eve and the verse is discussing ALL OF THE ISRAELITES and how a gentile is grated into the promises

GODS WORD warns to not add to his word as was done by taking the discussion in Romans 11 and MISUSING ONE VERSE Rom 11:32 in an attempt to prove the non-biblical "no free will theory"
---Rhonda on 2/16/12


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Jim, hi, let me say, I confess I am a sinner saved by the grace of God. He has forgiven me.
Second, I am not inslave to sin, but I do sin. My sinful nature will die at my physical death. At the Second Coming I will receive a new glorified body, sinless for all eternity.
Third, everyone who sins, sins because they wanted to sin because no one forces them.
They will say as I do, "I don't want to sin." But when the temptation comes, we take it because we want to take it, no one forces us. The devil doesn't force us, God doesn't force us, no one does. We do it because we desire it. Later we regret it. Before God we are righteous on account of the imputed righteousness of Christ. Underneath that righteousness is nothing but sin.
---Mark_V. on 2/16/12


Yes, JIM, everyone sins, even believers. If you are claiming that you do not sin then you are not even saved because the first step to salvation is admitting that you are a sinner in need of God's grace to take away the consequences of your sin because you will never be perfect. Only one person was perfect and that was Jesus Christ.

MarkV, you just said that God does not cause us to sin, but that we sin because we are sinners and we want to sin. That's called free will, and that's my point. If there was no such thing as free will then the fact that sin exists would mean that God makes us sin, since we as humans would have no part in deciding if we are going to sin or not.
---Jed on 2/16/12


"Basically you are saying that God gives commands he does not want or intend for us to follow just to cause us to sin. What kind of God is that?" Jed

A SOVEREIGN GOD. Or as David proclaimed, "But our God is in the heavens: He hath done whatsoever He hath pleased."

"He did it just to cause them to disobey..."

Because, "... with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world", God was only going to glorify His Son and mankind has to fall in order for His will to be fulfilled.

Obviously your god is not the same God as proclaimed by David in the Holy Bible.
---christan on 2/16/12


Mark V//We sin because we are sinners.

I hope you are not talking about believers. Otherwise known as Saints, children of God. etc....

Sinner = devoted to sin, not free from sin, wicked, heathen.
Mark V...i feel that you do not seek to commit sin,or are you a wicked person. We were once heathens. we are free from the power of sin.
All saints have a past....
All sinners have a future..
---JIM on 2/16/12


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Jed, you said,
"Basically you are saying that God gives commands he does not want or intend for us to follow just to cause us to sin. What kind of God is that?"
Jed, God's intentions are never evil. He never causes us to sin. We sin because we are sinners. And since He is God, who knows all things, knows we will sin. He can never be charge with injustice. He knows what you will do tomorrow whether you will sin big time or not. He does not make you sin. You sin because you want to sin. No one is forced to sin. If left to ourselves, no one would be saved. God knows what is in your heart before you sin, and knows the consequences you will face. That includes every person.
---Mark_V. on 2/16/12


Christian (allegedly), why ask a question if you're going to personally and rudely attack those who answer it? You obviously believe you already have the only answer, so why ask? Basically you are saying that God gives commands he does not want or intend for us to follow just to cause us to sin. What kind of God is that? So you think that when God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit, He did it just to cause them to disobey (since they had no choice) so he could punish all humanity with sin and death? What kind of Bible do you read? My Bible speaks of a loving God.
---Jed on 2/15/12


"Just because you can't understand the simple concept that disobedience in itself is proof of a human, carnal will, you don't have to go around acusing people of "shooting off at the mouth". You are the one who twisted the scriptures to fit your erroneous doctrine." Jed

So saith the kettle to the pot. You have no such Scripture to back your claim, "This means she had the power not to eat the fruit..." and you're mad? The Scriptures prove "your understanding" is a lie and you get angry. That's normal I guess.

It's the Word of God who's calling you a liar, not me. Show us the Scriptures to back up your claims and I'll apologize for what I have said.
---christan on 2/15/12


Christian, please change your name. You're responses to people are plain rude and disrespectful and are a very poor representation of what a true Christian is. Just because you can't understand the simple concept that disobedience in itself is proof of a human, carnal will, you don't have to go around acusing people of "shooting off at the mouth". You are the one who twisted the scriptures to fit your erroneous doctrine. You can't even understand how human will and God's ultimate control can exist together. So obviously this is a matter that's a little above your head.
---Jed on 2/15/12


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Here is the second part:

If the "old part" no longer applies, then why did you hand it to me when I asked to see the book?

Me: Well, parts of it do apply.

You: Didn't you just tell me that it doesn't apply?
---Jason_Varner on 2/15/12


The key is Eve did not believe God. We should be thankful Satan no longer appears to us IN PERSON when he tempts us - or maybe we could resist more strongly today if he did. Another female in Scripture who raises the free-will question is Mary. Was she consulted by God about birthing the Savior?
---Geraldine on 2/15/12


Jed, you said,

"Otherwise, everything would always be just as God commands."

Not as God commands, but ordains it to be. Nothing in His plan will change one bit. He will not be surprise by any new information, He already knows all things. And the reason He knows all things is because He ordained all things. Before you even speak, He has already heard you. God already knew that Eve would be deceived, and permitted it to happen. God did not make her sin, He knew she would. And also knew all the next steps since it is His plan. What other reason would Jesus Christ be known as a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the World? You need to think, study the God you worship.
---Mark_V. on 2/15/12


Jed, I'd suggest before you shoot off your mouth like some people here, you had better read the Scriptures in context before you even consider joining the bandwagon of "free-will". Here's where God contradicts you,

"The man that executeth my counsel from a far country: Yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it." Isaiah 46:12 and

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Romans 11:32

Plain and simple, God willed that Adam and Eve be in unbelief and not because they "free-willed" themselves to disobedience. But man will still be held responsible for their actions. How'd you like that?
---christan on 2/14/12


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Christian, how else could you enterpret that? God told Eve not to eat the fruit, but she did eat it. This means she had the power not to eat the fruit and had to make a concious choice to disobey God. God would not tell us to do something that we can not do, or have no power over. If Eve had no free will, then she would have been forced to obey God perfectly, since God has ultimate power to do whatever he pleases. The fact that anyone is able to disobey God or go out of his perfect will proves that we have free will. Otherwise, everything would always be just as God commands.
---Jed on 2/14/12


Both Adam and Eve had free will just like all of mankind

GOD WARNED to not eat or touch the fruit or they would die

She disobey and listened to the Devil who told Eve she would not die by eating it which was true she ate it and lived for some time before she died ...she will live again when Christ returns however right now she is dead

however if she OBEYED GODS command and believed HIM Adam would have ruled earth and no man would have experienced death

all have free will however the message is not about free will it is about OBEYING Eve by her free will DISOBEYED GODS WARNING
---Rhonda on 2/14/12


Yes it is, even Paul reference to this verse:

2 Corinthians 11:2-3 "I feel a divine jealousy for you, for I betrothed you to Christ to present you as a pure bride to her one husband. But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning , your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ."
---Ruben on 2/14/12


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