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Salvation Before Christ

It has been suggested that "a man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved". Is this salvation before Christ?

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 ---JackB on 2/20/12
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//If salvation were in our hands, then we would have reason to boast, but scripture says we cannot.// ---lee1538 on 3/7/12

when i was in college, i walked to classes. every morning, i walked under a pear tree. i hated pears. then, one day, being so hungry (as a college student often is), i ate one. after that, i was hooked. but, i also found out there were different varieties. i only like this one. the pear tree led me, i did not choose the pear. i had no choice. my hunger was so great. i partook in what was offered. after that, to take advantage of what was freely given became natural.

Therefore man is [fed] only by the [pears] of God, man only believes when God opens ones eyes to the Truth.
---aka on 3/7/12


"Therefore man is saved only by the grace of God, man only believes when God opens ones eyes to the Truth."
---lee1538 on 3/7/12

Could you point where God opened the eyes of these people here mentioned:

Isaiah 1:16-19 Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes, cease to do evil,
Learn to do well, seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: ..."

After all, God pointed out to them the truth of their spiritual and moral condition and how to overcome it and get right with him.
Where is it written that God opened their eyes?
---Nana on 3/7/12


1 Cor. 1:28-29 God chose (we did not) what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.

If salvation were in our hands, then we would have reason to boast, but scripture says we cannot.

Therefore man is saved only by the grace of God, man only believes when God opens ones eyes to the Truth.
---lee1538 on 3/7/12


Mark,you said
//But I know who God is, and He is not the one you believe in.//
He is the Son of God.
He lived a sinless life.
He died (for our sins).
He was buried.
He was resurrected from the dead.
He ascended to the Father.

Is this the same God you believe in Mark?
---michael_e on 3/6/12


Michael E, I did not say everyone was wrong you did. A few of you are completely wrong. Many are right. The few of you are but about seven of you, that is from around the world. I call that few.
What is not Truth, won't matter to the lost for they are lost already. What I care about is the Truth for the Truth will accomplish the purposes God intends. It might not be for you. I really don't know. I'm not God so many things I still need to learn. I have not touched but a small fraction of His Word. But I know who God is, and He is not the one you believe in. My God is Sovereign God of the whole universe. And does what pleases Him. Your god is a god you have formed in your mind. A wimp who permits man and satan to run circles around him.
---Mark_V. on 3/6/12




//The reason I answer is because I know I am right//
So, Mark is right and God's Word and everyone else is wrong?
How can you be right all the time and everyone is wrong, did God make you more special than other believers? I think not.
---michael_e on 3/5/12


Aka, here is the logic brother. Passages in Scripture are either explicit or implicit. Explicit statements are facts. Implicit statement imply something or another, it is not fact. When Jesus spoke, He spoke many times implicitly, sometimes explicitly, other times literally, other time figuratively and other times in parables. The standard for all heretics, as Mormons, Witnessess, and others, is to look for passages that seem to imply something different then the explicit statements concerning God. If you have no clue what I'm talking about then, it will never be logic to you. That's ok, You don't have to know those things, you can pick and choose as you go, you are not alone.
---Mark_V. on 3/5/12


Michael e, if I was terrified that I might be wrong, I sure would not quote Scripture to anyone and even give the interpretaion of the context. The reason I answer is because I know I am right. If what I write is not Truth it means nothing. But if what I write is Truth, God will use it to bring revelation to someone He has already prepared to read. For His Word never returns void, it alway accomplishes the purpose God intented. Since I started not many even thought of a God centered theology, but now they know that God is Sovereign Ruler of all things. If they reject it, it's all on them. I never speak for man, he is a sinner at enmity against God.
---Mark_V. on 3/5/12


Blogger, I thank you for your answers and though I do not agree with what you said, and I believe the Scriptures from Jesus I gave you, gave a clear explicit statement understandable by many, I will not give you anymore of Jesus Words. It might get all of you guys to answer in the flesh and I sure don't want to do that. It was nice answering you. Aka says, "calvinism in a nutshell," then I suppose Calvin was right. Didn't know that. I learned something today. Peace I leave you.
---Mark_V. on 3/5/12


//You know, Mark, you have no reason to claim that others dont give you scripture. When they present it to you you completely ignore them. I think you are utterly terrified that you might be wrong.//
Blogger, you are absolutely correct.
---michael_e on 3/4/12




Blogger 2: you also said,

"What else did Jesus say? Not everyone who says to me "Lord Lord" shall enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 7:21)

Now read why they will not enter the Kingdom of heaven? He said,
"And then I will declare to them, I never knew you," depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness" (Matt. 7:23). Do you know why He didn't know them? Because He only knows His sheep.
"My sheep hear My voice "and I know them," and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never parish, neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:27.28).
---Mark_V. on 3/4/12


//I don't go around trying to twist anyone's word. I look for the Truth. You are looking up passages to discredit what Jesus said. They saw Him, His works, and they still did not believe. Why? Because they were not His sheep.// ---Mark_V. on 3/4/12

blogger, you cannot argue with this kind of (il)logic. how can you look up passages in the bible to discredit what Jesus said? there are none. you can only present what else is in the bible.

-if you do present sound verses, that is not what it means.
-if you do not present scripture, you are attacked.
-if you can present scripture that cannot be refuted, you are ignored or sidestepped.

this is calvinism in a nutshell.
---aka on 3/4/12


///Jesus Words are Truth, not rotten/// MarkV


So if yours are rotten, then that would make you not like Jesus. That was my point. I said nothing about Jesus Christs words. If you cant separate your words from Christs word then maybe you have bigger problem than I realized.
---Blogger_9680 on 3/4/12


Blogger, it didn't take long for you to say what others do when told the truth. Jesus Words are Truth, not rotten.
Here again concerning the question, "...How long do you keep us in doubt? "if You are the Christ, tell us plainly" and Jesus said,
"Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe." The works that I do in My Fathers name they bear witness of Me. "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep..." (John 24-26).
I don't go around trying to twist anyone's word. I look for the Truth. You are looking up passages to discredit what Jesus said. They saw Him, His works, and they still did not believe. Why? Because they were not His sheep.
---Mark_V. on 3/4/12


You know, Mark, you have no reason to claim that others dont give you scripture. When they present it to you you completely ignore them. I think you are utterly terrified that you might be wrong.

What else did Jesus say? Not everyone who says to me "Lord Lord" shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Only those who do the will of the Father. His focus is on a changed life, not doctrinal prefection. The ironic part is that the very thing Christ will judge us by is what exposes you as a fake. Your fruit is rotten. You constantly try to discredit others by twisting their words instead of listening to what they are really saying. That is not a sign of a true Christian. That is flat out disrespectful.
---Blogger9680 on 3/3/12


You will be (future tense not past) saved. Its right there.
---Blogger9680 on 3/3/12

i have no problem with this, i do not believe anyone is "saved" until we are saved (delivered) on that day. but, it is clear that we must have belief. it is right there.

now, i do not think the belief is possible without something to believe in first...i.e. not "free will" OR calvinsim, but God's will and predestination.
---aka on 3/3/12


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//It does not say they have free will.// markv

i agree. it is God's will and not our "free will". (i have said many times that free will is not scriptural.)

//It say if they have faith to believe in Christ they will come to Him and be saved.//

it says, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" and not "if they have faith to believe".

in us, faith starts as small as a mustard seed (Mat_13:31) and it grows from faith (Rom 1:17) to faith as we seek, ask, and knock (Luk 11:10).
---aka on 3/3/12


Blogger, a person needs faith to come to Christ. That's simple. That faith comes from God, and the reason not everyone has faith. Only believers in Christ have faith. Unbelievers are called unbelievers because they don't have faith. Simple.
Who are the one's who believe? Jesus said,
"I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Fathers name, they bear witness of Me. "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep," only those who are His sheep already, believe. He says,'"My sheep hear My voice and I know them, and they follow Me" Didn't he also say to the others, "I never knew you?" What is hard to understand? Your Christian supposely with the Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 3/3/12


1Cor. 15:1-4 As plain as it gets.
We do not worship Paul the man. However, the message given to him by the risen CHRIST is what GOD is doing in this dispensation of grace.
---michael_e on 3/3/12


//Jack B, A person believes in Christ because he is saved. If he was not saved he would not believe in Christ.// MarkV

//Act 16:31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
---aka on 3/3/12//

You will be (future tense not past) saved. Its right there.
---Blogger9680 on 3/3/12


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Craig, why do you say I said,

"This is coming from a man who thinks its God will for men to perish for his own pleasure"

I don,t make stupid remarks, you do. God gets no pleasure in sending people to hell.
You said,
"Maybe its because if Jesus did indeed die for everyone then your doctrine cant be true at all."

I have the right doctrine, I believe what Jesus said,
"...I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not fo this fole, Them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice, and there will be one flock and One shepherd" (John 10:15,16).
You say He died for everyone, Jesus said for only His sheep. The wicked are not His sheep.
---Mark_V. on 3/3/12


Aka, nothing wrong with the passage you gave from Acts. If they choose to believe in Christ they will be saved because that means they have faith in Christ or else they would not choose Christ. It does not say they have free will. It say if they have faith to believe in Christ they will come to Him and be saved. If they don't they will not be saved. And who are we those who believe in Christ and come to Him?
Those who are born of God.
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those" who believe in His name. "who were born" not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God"
---Mark_V. on 3/3/12


//Jack B, A person believes in Christ because he is saved. If he was not saved he would not believe in Christ.// MarkV

Act 16:30 Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
---aka on 3/3/12


\\the devil believed in Christ too.\\
---shira4368 on 3/2/12

WRONG ! ! !

Believing in someone means to hope in someone, to have a confident expectation that someone will fulfill what he or she has set out to do.

And scripture never says that the devil "believed in" anyone. It says that the devil believes that there is one God. That is a big difference.
---James_L on 3/2/12


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Shira, the devil did believe in Christ, but he had no faith in Christ. I have to make that clear because many passage leave out faith, others say, 'believed by faith'. But depending on the context when it says "even the devil believed" it does not mean he had faith. Many do believe but lack that true faith that only comes from God.
But you are so right, from the beginning he tried to stop the birth of Christ. Good think he cannot read peoples minds, otherwise he would not have been instrumental in the death of Christ. He didn't know Jesus had to die. With His death, the Atonement was possible for all the elect.
---Mark_V. on 3/2/12


---Craig, how little you understand God---MarkV

This is coming from a man who thinks its God will for men to perish for his own pleasure. The same God who came into this world to pay for the sins of the whole world with his own blood. I know you dont like that, but for the life of me I cant understand why.

Maybe its because if Jesus did indeed die for everyone then your doctrine cant be true at all. Which means you are deceived and I dont think your pride will allow you to consider that. Its a shame too, because you appear to be a man who is very zealous for God. I hope the Lord opens your eyes to what you are doing before your zeal bids you no better than it did the Jews who rejected Christ.
---CraigA on 3/2/12


Craig, how little you understand God. You look at Scripture from man's perspective never from God's. Man centered.
The only reason Paul could say what he did is because it was God who made him preservere. "Who are you to judge another's servent? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand" (Romans 14:4).
We are also told,
"...So that we are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, "who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord" ( 1 Cor. 1:7-9).
---Mark_V. on 3/2/12


the devil believed in Christ too. That is why he tried to destroy His bloodline starting in Genesis. The devil is going to hell and he knows it. That is why he is taking as many with him as possible.
---shira4368 on 3/2/12


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//Jack B, A person believes in Christ because he is saved. If he was not saved he would not believe in Christ//

That is definately putting the cart before the horse.
Whoever said that is completely backwards and very confused. That IS salvation before faith in Christ. Paul said just before his death that he had finished the race and kept the faith and that was why there was a reward waiting for him as God had promised. He had to persevere in order to acquire that which God had promised him. And guess what, it is still Gods grace. Paul still doesnt deserve it, but God keeps his promises.
---CraigA on 3/1/12


Ruben 2: no one else knows someone else's heart if the person is saved or not, only his own heart. We judge others by their fruits. But what we conclude is not authentic proof they are saved or not. The case can be make with many here who answer. We judge by what they say to other brothers and sisters, because the Word of God does tell us,
"For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned" (Matt. 12:37), which tells us that there is no truer indication of a bad tree than the fruit of speech (v.33,35). The poisonous snakes were known by their poisons mouths revealing evil hearts (v.34: Luke 6:45). Every person is judged by his words, because they reveal the state of his heart.
---Mark_V. on 2/29/12


**** "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent"

Jesus wants you to believe in him!!
---Ruben on 2/22/12 ****

That's the facts Jack! Just that simple.
---Nana on 2/28/12


//Jack B, A person believes in Christ because he is saved. If he was not saved he would not believe in Christ.//

It sounds like Markv has had too much of that fermented grape juice.
---michael_e on 2/28/12


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James L, I gave you my two cents, if that is what its worth to you concerning this issue. Peace I leave you.
---Mark_V. on 2/28/12


Ruben, good question. How do I know about myself? There is a test for authentic assurance and it is two-fold.
1. We must examine our hearts to see if we have true faith in Christ. We must see whether or not we have any genuine love for the biblical Christ. For we know such love for Him would be impossible without regeneration.
2. We must examine the fruit of our faith. We do not need perfect fruit to have assurance, but there must be some evidence of the fruit of obedience for our profession of faith to be credible. If no fruit is present, then no faith is present. For we seek our assurance from the Word of God through which the Holy Spirit bears witness to our spirit that we are His children.
---Mark_V. on 2/28/12


They heard the word just like many do today, go to church for years, and are not truely saved. Faith was missing.
Mark V

Tell me Mark, those that heard the word and go to Church, how do you know you are not one of them? You have said many times that only God knows who are saved or not, but here you are making this claim, wow!
---Ruben on 2/28/12


I was reading this blog, thinking about adding my two cents and suddenly my Spirit fell as I was aware of the fact that so many of the posts back and forth are just running one another down. The dialog doesnt read much different than a down town South Central LA court room with lawyers verbally hacking one another apart, calling it representing the law. They will know us by our love>>>>
Spurgeon "A man who has a strong mind can bear to be insulted long, and only resents the wrong when a sense of right demands his action. The weak mind is irritated at a little: the strong mind bears it like a rock which moveth not, though a thousand breakers dash upon it.
---Poppa_Bear on 2/28/12


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Mark V,
Are you kidding me?

Acts 28:23 says that Paul was trying to convince them
ABOUT JESUS
from the Law and prophets.

Did you think he was preaching Law to them?

Verse 24 says that SOME were convinced by what he said. How could you ever conclude that those who were convinced about Jesus didn't believe in Him ???

What on earth do you think it means to be convinced, if someone can be convinced of truth, yet doesn't believe that truth ??? That doesn't even make sense

Verse 26 was directed at those mentioned in verse 25 who refused to believe.


Wow, man. Really
---James_L on 2/28/12


James L, the passages you gave no where mention that those who were persuaded had faith in Jesus Christ. Or that they believed in the Lord by faith. You assumed they had faith in the works of Christ, but that is adding to the passage what is not there. They heard the word just like many do today, go to church for years, and are not truely saved. Faith was missing.
(Act 28:23,24) they were persuaded of both the Law of Moses and the prophets. Nothing whatsoever to do with believing by faith in Christ or that they were saved. He explains that (v. 26),
" Go to the people and say, Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand, And seeing you will see, and not perceive,
---Mark_V. on 2/28/12


Ok Christan, since you want to play dumb, here it is from the other blog:


\\\\No, Agrippa was not the only one

"peitho" - to persuade another to receive a belief, meaning to convince

Acts 17:4 "and some of them WERE PERSUADED (epeisthesan) and joined Paul and Silas"

Acts 18:4 "and he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and TRYING TO PERSUADE (epeithen) Jews and Greeks"

Acts 28:23-24 "Paul was...TRYING TO CONVINCE (peithon) them concerning Jesus...some WERE PERSUADED (epeithonto) while others WOULD NOT BELIEVE"\\\\



And you answer would be ???????????????????????
---James_L on 2/27/12


"In the "Is Faith Needed For Salvation" blog, you will find me quoting 4 passages in Acts that people were being PERSUADED or CONVINCED of the gospel." James_L

And your answer to "Is Faith Needed For Salvation" is to use verses in Acts about Agrippa? That's not even an answer but rather it exposes your abyss darkness of "Faith in Jesus Christ", which is what saves the sinner from condemnation.

At least I'm still in the park "so far into left field. You're already outside of the stadium onto the freeway waiting for a truck to come run you down. In golf they call it out-of-bounds. However, you're way out-of-bounds with your Agrippa understanding.
---christan on 2/27/12


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Christan,
as usual, you've run so far into left field that it's hard to even remember what the issue is that you are evading.

In the "Is Faith Needed For Salvation" blog, you will find me quoting 4 passages in Acts that people were being PERSUADED or CONVINCED of the gospel.

Did you respond over there? NO, YOU DIDN'T

Will you respond here? My guess is that you won't respond with anything, unless it's drivel about dust, pride, election......*yawn*......predestination.....*yawn*......frewillers.......*yawn*.......and not a single word that actually pertains to the passages I quoted.

Thanks for a worthless encounter. I hope you feel like the time was well spent
---James_L on 2/25/12


"So God does the believing for you? Or He gives you the graces, you have to do your part?" Ruben

What's in this verse that you cannot comprehend? "for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth". Does it say, "God does the believing for you", I'm sure I didn't say that either.

The meaning of "the power of God" is "And you hath He quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins". For your benefit, "quickened" simply means "to become alive, receive life". The Spirit raises the sinner's DEAD spirit to life aka "born of the Spirit". This is "the power of God"!
---christan on 2/25/12


"NOW, Do you have anything to disprove what I already demonstrated from scripture?" James_L

Seriously, what Scripture have you provided but your own running commentary of what you think Scripture is saying? You have not one single Scripture to use that supports your feeble and erroneous understanding. And that's because Scripture clearly contradicts your idle babbling.

And rightfully so, because you're what you spew... ?????????????????????????????????!

"That seeing they may see, and not perceive, and hearing they may hear, and not understand, lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them." Mark 4:12

God owes mankind NOTHING!
---christan on 2/25/12


Christan, here is the drivel I referred to. And you know this is what I referred to

\\I'm sure because of your pride that you are blinded to not even realize you are bringing the Creator down to the level of the creature. What blasphemy!\\
---christan on 2/22/12

This worthless comment was aimed at my contention that one must be convinced in order to believe the gospel. And I already cited numerous passages from Acts taht proved it.

NOW, Do you have anything to disprove what I already demonstrated from scripture? Or are you going to continiue to run drivel out of your mouth?????

??????
??????
??????
---James_L on 2/24/12


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christan* Ruben, how do you read a Scripture that says, and then come up with a conclusion like, "Jesus wants you to believe in him!!" Seriously, where?

Scriptue does not say 'This is the work of God, "AND" you will believe in him' Does it?

christan* Scripture didn't say, "This is the work of God, that God wants you to believe in His Son." Did Scripture say that?

Yes, "(That) ye(You) will believe on him whom you sent"

christan* What it plainly mean is that those who have believe in Him is because God has already worked His power of salvation in the man.

So God does the believing for you? Or He gives you the graces, you have to do your part?
---Ruben on 2/24/12


Ruben, how do you read a Scripture that says, "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." and then come up with a conclusion like, "Jesus wants you to believe in him!!" Seriously, where?

Scripture didn't say, "This is the work of God, that God wants you to believe in His Son." Did Scripture say that?

What it plainly mean is that those who have believe in Him is because God has already worked His power of salvation in the man. Thus confirmed by Paul, "for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth".
---christan on 2/24/12


"You got any "Word For Word" scripture citations for that worthless drivel?" James_L

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground", by this time God had already created everything and man was His last creation. Which He took from the ground, not soil or stone or rock, but DUST! Does dust sound like something very precious to you that you feel offended?

"I think dust must be something you're smoking, the most retarded thing"

Is this all you can say to "contradict" what I have said? Really? Please do better if you want to name call or mock someone. Or better still, use the Word of God to prove I have been lying and bearing false witness.
---christan on 2/24/12


Arminians are in full force fighting for their rights. Their own works. Their own faiths. Christians depending on their own works. Joining the Catholics. Men would strip Deity of His Omniscience if they could, what a proof that "the carnal mind is enmity against God" (Rom. 8:7). Explicit statement,
"He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: None can stay His hand" (Dan. 4:35).
And if God does not grant faith, none would be saved.
"For it has been granted to you (believers) that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in Him but also suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).
---Mark_V. on 2/24/12


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Jack B, A person believes in Christ because he is saved. If he was not saved he would not believe in Christ.
you said, Is this salvation before Christ? No, it's a spiritual rebirth into Christ. ( Eph. 2:2-9) tells us,
"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us (believers) even when we were dead in trespasses, "made us alive together with Christ" (spiritually into His body) by grace you have been saved, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" This is spiritual rebirth. When we are born of the Spirit, we respond in the flesh to the Lord by faith. For we have been saved by grace through faith, and not of ourselves, it is a gift of God.
---Mark_V. on 2/24/12


\\Is dust a precious material? Is there value in dust?\\
---christan on 2/22/12

I think dust must be something you're smoking


\\I'm sure because of your pride that you are blinded to not even realize you are bringing the Creator down to the level of the creature. What blasphemy!\\
---christan on 2/22/12

Really, now. That's just about the most retarded thing I've seen you write yet. You got any "Word For Word" scripture citations for that worthless drivel?

Nope. just a lot of ignorant allegations. Grow up, you ought to be ashamed of yourself
---James_L on 2/22/12


\\I do not see any of these statements contradictory.\\
---lee1538 on 2/22/12

You have said that a man is justified and born again before he believes, and you also said that a man is justified and born again after he believes

That is a conflict. Which is it? before or after? If it's before faith, then why are you writing in other places that it happens after faith?

If it's after faith (which I agree with) then why are you also writing that it is before?

That's like saying you got your paycheck before the weekend, and then saying you got your paycheck after the weekend.

Which is it? before or after?
---James_L on 2/22/12


But one can only believe if the Spirit opens ones eyes to it.---Lee1538

Absolutely agree!

Now.... can a man resist the Spirit and deny the truth of Christ that the Spirit has revealed to him? This is where most of us always disagree. From my reading of Gods word I conclude that we can indeed! Otherwise all warnings for believers listed throughout the epistles are pointless. Hebrews 3 makes it very clear that we can make the same error that Israel made and be excluded from Gods rest!
---JackB on 2/22/12


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James_L//These are conflicting statements.

I do not see any of these statements contradictory.

One responds to the gospel message by believing in it and when that happens, the believer is born again by the work of God's Spirit. But one can only believe if the Spirit opens ones eyes to it.

Faith on the other hand, is really trust in the Word of God, in the promises that He has given us.

For by grace alone, our we saved thru faith, NOT OF OURSELVES, it is the gift from God. Eph. 2:8-9
---lee1538 on 2/22/12


John 6:28-29, " Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

And Christ simply went straight to their wicked hearts and told them that the act of 'BELIEVING IN HIM is the WORK OF GOD. Did Christ say, it's the work of man? Because that's what your "free-will" means.

Verse 28 was first left out because I knew you were going to use that which then gave me the opportunity to elaborate further that "free-will" does not exist. Way to go!
---christan on 2/21/12

Christan read it again very slowy:

"This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent"

Jesus wants you to believe in him!!
---Ruben on 2/22/12


Just remember what God created us with, DUST! Is dust a precious material? Is there value in dust?--Christan

Enough to lay your life down for it apparently.
---JackB on 2/22/12


Faith is not a work. God says so. Not me - God! Whoever has taught you that if a man has faith he has worked for his own salvation has LIED to you!

2 Tim 4:7 (Paul) I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith

Was Paul stealing Gods glory? Shouldnt he have said "God has fought the good fight. He has finished my course. He has kept the faith given to me"?

Why would Paul warn believers of something that you claim is impossible?

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in DEPARTING from the living God

2 Pet 2:1...even denying the Lord that bought them...

Too many holes. Far too many
---CraigA on 2/22/12


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"Also, I never said that faith comes from us. Being convinced happens to us, it does not come from us." James_L

I thought Satan was full of pride when He wanted to takeover God's kingdom. Satan doesn't even need convincing that he's going to the Lake of Fire, he knows he's heading there.

And you, a mere creature created from dust thinks God needs to convince you to believe in Him. Seriously? Just remember what God created us with, DUST! Is dust a precious material? Is there value in dust? And you think God needs to convince you?

I'm sure because of your pride that you are blinded to not even realize you are bringing the Creator down to the level of the creature. What blasphemy!
---christan on 2/22/12


\\I believe that at the moment of regeneration...the righteousness of Christ is credited to our account\\
---lee1538

\\Regeneration comes before faith...\\
---lee1538

\\Justification - the act of God whereby He declares righteous i.e. gives a righteous STANDING to- one who believes on Jesus Christ.\\
---lee1538

These are conflicting statements.

On the one hand, you say that a man is credited righteousness before he believes.

Then, you quote Scofield as saying that this same credited righteousness is to one who believes

Which is it? before faith, or at faith?

Also, I never said that faith comes from us. Being convinced happens to us, it does not come from us
---James_L on 2/21/12


First, there was Taxmen and chairs. Now there's a car. When's the boat, air plane to come? Your analogy is so weak and feeble that you even have the audacity to compare it to the gift of faith from God?

Hostile? Really? And you come with a peace pipe offering? O please, don't act so noble. Have you seen and read your replies? So, stop making yourself out to be a victim of God's Truth when His Words contradict your heart. Such behavior wreaks of pure hypocrisy.

Turning to the subject of my hostility as merely changing the subject of speaking the Truth of God's Words. Good try, but not good enough.
---christan on 2/21/12


Here, CraigA, this is John 6:28-29, "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Verse 28 were people like you, thinking that they could work for their salvation. And Christ simply went straight to their wicked hearts and told them that the act of 'BELIEVING IN HIM is the WORK OF GOD. Did Christ say, it's the work of man? Because that's what your "free-will" means.

Verse 28 was first left out because I knew you were going to use that which then gave me the opportunity to elaborate further that "free-will" does not exist. Way to go!
---christan on 2/21/12


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lee1538,
I have no qualms with what you wrote about justification or sanctification.

But in regeneration, we are washed clean, given a godly nature. God takes our heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh. Namely, we are born again.

regeneration is not imputed righteousness, it is actual, where our nature has been changed.

So if we follow your chronology, it should go:
Unregenerated man is changed into a righteous man. Then this righteous man believes the gospel and counted as righteous.

If this man is righteous already, why would he even need to be justified?

That's like a man on death row being given a stay of execution after he's already been proven innocent.
---James_L on 2/21/12


---He also said that "faith" is a gift from Him---Christan

Please dont tell me we have to go over Eph 2:8,9 again. How many times have others told you here that FAITH is not the subject of "it is the gift of God"? Every high school English teacher that has passed away would be rolling over in their grave right now at how people misread those verses.

By the way, noone buys you a car and then locks it and throws away the key so you have no access to it. I appreciate your insulting condescending attitude though. You remind me so much of MarkV.

You also seem really hostile lately. Could it be you are becoming defensive because your doctrine is falling apart?
---CraigA on 2/21/12


Way to leave out a key verse Christan...

Then said they unto him, WHAT SHALL WE DO, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
---CraigA on 2/21/12


Jesus is Salvation. He is the resurrection and the life. And people "become" saved by coming to the Savior Jesus, and asking him to save them. After a soul becomes saved, then they walk in thankfulness for being saved, and they continue to be saved because they continue to walk in Salvation.
---Eloy on 2/21/12


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There is no salvation before Christ. There was never a need for salvation until man sinned, and the moment man sinned there was Christ

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of (LAMB'S)skins, and clothed them.
Revelation 13:8 CHRIST IS the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Genesis 22:God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together

Belief and faith in Christ started right after sin
Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed, it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
---francis on 2/21/12


Paul speaks of how we "first trusted in Christ," in Ephesians 1:12. Believing in Jesus includes trusting him for salvation. So, yes we were saved because we believed (trusted) in Christ.

Also, because we are saved, we are now trusting (believing) in Jesus.

So, both statements can be correct, depending on if you mean them the right way. Also, we have > "But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17) When we first trust-believe in Jesus we become "joined" and "one spirit with" Jesus. So, make sure you have this and are not just playing with words and arguing.
---Bill_willa6989 on 2/21/12


James_L//He is now clean and has a godly nature, but is not justified yet?

You need to understand the doctrines of justification and sanctification, you do not cleanse our old nature from its sin.

Justification - the act of God whereby He declares righteous i.e. gives a righteous STANDING to- one who believes on Jesus Christ. (26 Great Words, C.I. Scofield, Vol. V, p.1256)

Sanctification - the work of God in the believer thru the Spirit & the Word which progressively changes one more and more into the image of Christ. It is that work of Christ that sets the believer apart for God. (Ibid, p. 1360)

We become like children when we are born again in the Spirit, but we need to mature and grow. Heb. 5:14
---lee1538 on 2/21/12


\\I believe that at the moment of regeneration...righteousness...is credited to our account.\\
---lee1538 on 2/20/12

Here comes the train wreck.

Scripture says righteousness is credited when we believe. So...

When a man is regenerated, God has washed him clean and given him a godly nature.

He is now clean and has a godly nature, but is not justified yet? a godly man, still condemned because righteousness has not been credited to him yet?

But scripture says the God justifies the UNgodly (Rom 4:5). Is the man washed by regeneration, yet is still ungodly?

If he is regenerated first, and actually made righteous, what on earth could he possibly gain from a measley "imputed" righteousness?
---James_L on 2/21/12


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"If I bought you a new car and sent you an email telling you where to find it, does it mean you played any part in purchasing the car simply because you believed where I told you to pick it up? Its still a gift." CraigA

What about the keys? You never mentioned where the keys were. For if you left the keys in the car, it might be gone by the time we got there to collect the car.

What ridiculous analogy you always seem to pull out from that magic "free-will" hat of yours.

God not only told us that we must believe in Christ to be saved but He also said that "faith" is a gift from Him which man cannot earn, because it's by His grace 100%.
---christan on 2/21/12


Lee1538,

I think we may differ in our view of the "nature" of faith. What is faith? Is faith an "element" that God gives us?

To use an analogy, money. Someone might give you money, and you choose to spend it where you may? And God gives you faith, and you choose to direct your faith?

Faith is not active, it's passive

God does not gives us "faith" and then ask us to direct it. God convinces us of Himself and His promises, and thus faith happens to us.

Suppose a teacher is explaining mathematics. If you learn, do you choose to learn it? No. But can you choose to cover your ears, and thus not learn? Yes
---James_L on 2/21/12


--If faith comes from us, then that would make us at least a co-savior making salvation not wholly of God but partly of ourselves---lee1538 on 2/20/12

If I bought you a new car and sent you an email telling you where to find it, does it mean you played any part in purchasing the car simply because you believed where I told you to pick it up? Its still a gift. Its still ALL my doing. You are simply the recipient of my grace because you made the wise decision to believe me.

Romans chapter 4 shows us that faith is not a work.
---CraigA on 2/21/12


What's so difficult to understand , "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)", which means to say when God saves the sinner, he was dead (obviously in the spirit) because the man was still walking around alive in his flesh. Proving it's the power of God unto salvation through regeneration.

Paul clearly declares in Romans 1:16, "for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth", again in 1 Corinthians 1:8, "unto us which are saved it is the power of God", Christ declared "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Believing is 100% the work of God!
---christan on 2/21/12


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James_L //If a man is regenerated prior to faith, then he is righteous before faith.

Righteous in the eyes of the world or in the eyes of God?

I believe that at the moment of regeneration we are saved eternally and the righteousness of Christ is credited to our account. 1 Cor. 1:30

Regeneration comes before faith as faith itself can only be a gift from God. If faith comes from us, then that would make us at least a co-savior making salvation not wholly of God but partly of ourselves. We can never save ourselves as that is what Jesus is to us the Savior.
---lee1538 on 2/20/12


\\...if we accept the Calvinistic view of the sovereignty of God, salvation is irresistible.\\
---lee1538 on 2/20/12


I much prefer the biblical view

The Calvinist view runs into too many problems when confronted with scripture

If a man is regenerated prior to faith, then he is righteous before faith. Why does he need a paltry "imputed" righteousness when he already possesses an actual righteousness?

If he is regenerated first, then he is godly before he is credited righteousness. But scripture declares that God justifies the UNgodly.

What sort of hope would a righteous man find in the gospel? He has no need to hear and believe
---James_L on 2/20/12


In the case of the Apostle Paul on the Damascus road, it is more likely that he believed in Christ after he was saved if we hold that his salvation was when he came to know Christ.

To the elect in God, our salvation is predestined and if we accept the Calvinistic view of the sovereignty of God, salvation is irresistible.
---lee1538 on 2/20/12


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