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Doers Of The Law Justified

In Romans 2:13 we read the doers of the law are justified, while in Gal. 2:16, those that simply believe by faith are declared righteous. How does one reconcile these 2 verses?

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 ---lee1538 on 2/21/12
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Thank you francis for admitting that it is the imputed righteousness that is credited to our account, that we need not depend upon our own righteousness for our salvation for that would only be filthy rags in God's sight.

If you accept Ephesians 2:10 you would have to confess that any good works we do is simply a display of His handiwork within us.

Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

And that is what you call imparted righteousness!
---lee1538 on 2/29/12


IMPARTED RIGHTEOUSNESS

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law:

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by WORKS a man is justified, and not by FAITH only
---francis on 2/29/12


Let me add this most important post.
We need to accept what the word of God says, rather than trying to make the word of God fit into what we already believe

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

I accept what both james and paul by the inspiration of the holy ghost says: I strive to be a doer of the law / word, and not a hearer only.

As a believer in Jesus chtrist the son of God, i see no conflicts between having faith in Jesus and keeping all ten commandments.
There would be a conflict if I saught to murder another human being

AMEN

---francis on 2/29/12


In Romans 2:13 the Apostle Paul is explaining that those who have been born again by the Spirit of God, do by nature the things contained in the law. Their actions are an outward testimony to the inward workings of the Holy Ghost.

In Galations 2:16 Paul is stating that it is not by our works (following the commandments of the law) that we stand just before God, but by His grace that is bestowed upon us as children of God due to the obedience of Christ.

For by grace are you saved through faith....
---trey on 2/29/12


So who said these if not the same "He" said to the nation of Israel.

He also told them that they must also undergo circumcision otherwise they would not be part of His covenant.
---lee1538 on 2/29/12
Deuteronomy 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: AND HE ADDED NO MORE. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

If he ADDED NO MORE, it must have been someone else who spoke about circumcision right?
---francis on 2/29/12




micha9344//The 10 Commandments will exist as long as there are unbelievers.

Yes, indeed as the 10 commandment like other laws are useful as a guardian or schoolmaster to lead us to Christ.

Gal. 3:24-26 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Now we know why Adventists ignore Galatians as it totally disagrees with the gospel according to olde Ellen white.
---lee1538 on 2/29/12


The 10 Commandments will exist as long as there are unbelievers.
Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets,
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
1Ti 1:9a Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers...
---micha9344 on 2/29/12


//James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill

So who said these if not the same "He" said to the nation of Israel.

He also told them that they must also undergo circumcision otherwise they would not be part of His covenant.

You will not find anything in the New Testament that tells us that the church has to observe the Sabbath or to undergo physical circumcision.

You might consider the FACT that the sabbath commandment was only a sign of the Old obsolete Covenant (Hebr. 8:13) God made ONLY with Israel and that the rest depicted by the rest of God at Creation was fulfilled by those who would believe. Hebrews 4.


---lee1538 on 2/29/12


francis:

Abe and Bob come over to your house. Abe steals your pen. Bob murders your entire family. Do you feel equally outraged over both of them, or over one of them more?

Note that the penalty under the law of Moses for both of these was not the same either.
---StrongAxe on 2/29/12


James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill

So who said these if not the same "He" said..

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.. to bow to
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain,
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother:
Exodus 20:13
Exodus 20:14
Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness
Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet

Are these lesser sins than not killing or not commiting adultery
---francis on 2/29/12




--lee1538 on 2/28/12
James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,..to bow down to
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain,
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother:
Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness
Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
---francis on 2/29/12


Haz: It is not WE that judge your actions, but the Holy Scriptures themselves. God gave us Ten Commandments, the transgression of which is defined as sin and by which we shall be judged. You decide for yourself if you are transgressing them. And even if you are, that doesn't mean that you can't change in the future and ultimately be saved. Only God knows the future, so only God knows if we WILL BE saved.


---jerry6593 on 2/29/12


Francis - Yes, I can see Adventism teaches one must reach a state of being totally free from sin to merit eternal life.

Again, grace in Adventism is simply a provision that enables one to obey the law and thus merit salvation.

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.

Php. 3:8f I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
---lee1538 on 2/28/12


While true that we can overcome sin with the help of God's Spirit, we will never be able to reach perfection while in the flesh, and that is what Adventism requires.. ---lee1538 on 2/28/12

Then we should all be adventist
Philippians 3:13 forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Philippians 3:14 "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."
Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Philippians 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
---francis on 2/28/12


we will never be able to reach perfection while in the flesh, and that is what Adventism requires for eternal salvation. However scripture teaches that our salvation does not depend upon our being sinless.
---lee1538 on 2/28/12

What does God require:
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Hebrews 12:1 let us lay aside every weight, AND THE SIN which doth so easily beset us,

Romans 6:12 Let NOT SIN therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

WOW again adventism and the bible are on one accord
---francis on 2/28/12


//We do struggle, but we are given to power to overcome this struggle and be obedient to God by CHRIST IN US
---
While true that we can overcome sin with the help of God's Spirit, we will never be able to reach perfection while in the flesh, and that is what Adventism requires for eternal salvation. However scripture teaches that our salvation does not depend upon our being sinless.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

This verse will always be true.
---lee1538 on 2/28/12


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---lee1538 on 2/27/12
We do struggle, but we are given to power to overcome this struggle and be obedient to God by CHRIST IN US
2 Corinthians 13:5 Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

If christ is not IN US we would be giving in to every impulse to sin and be reprobates

we get to take part in the divine nature 2 Peter 1:4 that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature

This is imparted righteousness the power given to overcome sin, and it is by this power that we live Godly lives:
2 Corinthians 4:11 the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

This power given to us enables us to demonstyrate the perfect life of Jesus in our mortal bodies
---francis on 2/28/12


If a man came up to you in tattered clothing and he tells you he's Stockbroker, will you believe him?
It would probably take some convincing for you to believe he was a Stockbroker, since he didn't look the part.
Now this man may give the evidence you need to believe him, but that evidence will not cause you to trust this man with all your investment money.

For many, Jesus Christ didn't look like the Son of God. So this fact was proven through the fulfillment of many Prophecies. But that proof was not enough to cause them to Trust in his word, as evidenced by Peter when he denied him 3x's.

Believing Jesus is the Son of God takes one kind of Faith, and trusting in his word takes another.
---David on 2/28/12


jerry6593: The SDAs here (especially Francis) have often pushed the condemnation slogan that without keeping the 10 commandments (especially the Sabbath) we non SDAs here are LOST/UNSAVED. Why do you ignore this FACT?

You said earlier "do not judge", but that is exactly what SDAs do here. By the way "do not judge" is referring to do not judge by the law. It does not mean do not judge/warn SDAs who fall from grace (because they are under the law and not grace).

God says to the likes of SDAs who judge by the law,
"There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: WHO ARE THOU THAT JUDGEST ANOTHER?" James 4:12

---Haz27 on 2/27/12


Jas 1:25 But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.

Francis may be correct in what is the law of liberty.

Barnes notes: The perfect law of liberty. Referring to the law of God, or his will, however made known, as the correct standard of conduct. It is called the perfect law, as being wholly free from all defects, being just such as a law ought to be. Compare #Ps 19:7. It is called the law of liberty, or freedom, because it is a law producing freedom from the servitude of sinful passions and lusts. Compare #Ps 119:45, see Barnes on "Ro 6:16", seq.
---lee1538 on 2/27/12


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Francis//I have it from THE BIBLE, the book you refuse to read.

Imputed righteousness - what the Christian upon believing is given - is sufficient for our salvation because of the blood of Christ shed on our behalf. Hebrews 9.

As to the flesh, there will always be a struggle (Romans 7 is very plain on that), and any sinfulness of the flesh that falls away is really a function of our spiritual growth, our learning to walk in accordance to God's Spirit. Romans 8.

Such acquisition in the flesh can only benefit us in this life and possibly rewards in the life to come.

So we are dealing here with your opinion as you have no quotes from the Bible.
---lee1538 on 2/27/12


Paul made it very clear that the Old Testament Law was NOT a "law of liberty", but rather one of bondage. So the Law of Liberty is NOT a list of "Thou shalt not this" and "Thou shalt not that".
---StrongAxe on 2/27/12
TEXT from PAUL about law of liberty

The phrase law of liberty as used in the NT probably comes from it's use by the psalmist

Psalms 119:44 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever. And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.

Think of it this way, as long as you are obeying the law of the land, you will not be imprisoned, you will be at liberty.

As long as you are obeying the law of God you will be at linerty
---francis on 2/27/12


---lee1538 on 2/26/12

I have it from THE BIBLE, the book you refuse to read

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

2 Cor 4:11 the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you

2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith, prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
---francis on 2/26/12


francis:

Paul made it very clear that the Old Testament Law was NOT a "law of liberty", but rather one of bondage. So the Law of Liberty is NOT a list of "Thou shalt not this" and "Thou shalt not that".
---StrongAxe on 2/27/12


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Haz: "Why don't you call this SDA claim "blasphemy" and "religious bigotry"?"

Because we have NEVER attacked or demeaned your denomination. Nor have we EVER dared to declare another person lost (fallen from grace). God is our judge - not you or me. We merely quote the Bible and discuss its relevance to us. We never bring up EGW to substantiate our claims. It is you SDA haters that bring her up. Why can't you just show from the Bible what you believe and why without resorting to such childishness.


---jerry6593 on 2/27/12


---francis on 2/26/12


Francis, what I have is forgivness of sin based solely on the Blood of Jesus Christ, and then I have Sanctification solely THROUGH THE BODY OF CHRIST..Hebrews 10.

When I received Jesus Christ,His blood washed away my sin, and The Cross or shall I say being crucified with Christ now dealls with the body of sin, or my old man, The Blood of Christ washes away my sin, not my old man. That is why our identification with Christ in death and resurrectionn Life in Him gives us a New Life in Him. The NEW MAN in Christ is not under Law but Grace: Galatians Romans 6 and 2:20-21 make that perfectly clear.
---kathr4453 on 2/27/12


Romans 6
--Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
---kathr4453 on 2/27/12


francis //You have imputed righteousness for that crime already committed in the past,
and imparted righteousness to help you not to commit any other crimes
---
Do you have a reference either in scripture or from Ellen White to share with us to support your belief on this issue?

Gal. 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.



---lee1538 on 2/26/12


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jerry6593: What about the message SDAs post here? SDAs claim if you don't keep the 10 commandments, especially the Sabbath, your not saved. Why don't you call this SDA claim "blasphemy" and "religious bigotry"?

Reality is we all do it to warn others of error doctrine that leads to death. But only one can be right.

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law, ye are FALLEN FROM GRACE." Gal 5:4
"if it's of works then it is NO MORE GRACE," Rom 11:6

These are warnings from God SDAs should consider being that it speaks to those like SDAs who seek justfication by the law.
---Haz27 on 2/26/12


---StrongAxe on 2/26/12
James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect LAW OF LIBERTY, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful HEAREE, but a DOER of the work, this man shall be blessed in his DEED.

in this passage WORD and phrease LAW OF LIBERTY are interchangteable.

---kathr4453 on 2/26/12

If you commit a crime and that crime is paid for you will not be punished for it again.

But then should you continue to commit crimes after you have been forgiven for that first crime?

That is how righteousness by faith works.

You have imputed righteousness for that crime already committed in the past,
and imparted righteousness to help you not to commit any other crimes
---francis on 2/26/12


Righteousness by faith is the imputing and imparting of the results of Christ sinless life and atoning death. It includes both justification and sanctification. He imputes, or credits, to us the merits of His sinless experience to deliver us from the PENALTY of sin. This is justification. To deliver us from the power of sin, He does not merely reckon us as righteous, but He actually imparts the strength to OVERCOME sin.

2 Cor 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

I do have sympathy for those who believe that all we have is christ righteousnes credited to us, and do not yet realize the gift of God given to us to overcme sin
---francis on 2/25/12


francis:

James 1:22 speaks of doers of the WORD, not doers of the LAW. Elsewhere, the Apostles were asked which aspects of the LAW Gentile believers were required to keep. They didn't say they needed to keep them all, only a few things (to abstain from idols, fornication, strangled animals, and blood). If other commandments would have been required, surely they would have mentioned them also?
---StrongAxe on 2/26/12


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Haz: "But SDAs have FALLEN FROM GRACE"

Did Jesus abdicate His office and leave you to be our judge? Don't you know that it is blasphemy to assume the office of God?

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Religious bigotry is most unbecoming!


---jerry6593 on 2/26/12


francis, your definition of imputed and imparted are incorect.

If you committed a crime, and wee sentenced to death, you rightly deserve that punishment.

Now, if I come along and stand in your stead and take that punishment in your place, in no way do you become sinless of that crime. And in no way has my taking your punishment made you sinless of that crime either.

The Judge just pronounces you NOT GUILTY. Now please understand in legal terms NOT GUILTY in no way says you are INNOCENT.

The reason you are pronounced NOT GUILTY is because someone else is stannding in your place.
---kathr4453 on 2/26/12


#2 francis,

People cannot be sentenced for the exact crime, nor can your crime come back on you after someone else paid the penalty.

God Justifies the UNGODLY( imputed righteousness) only because of their faith in Christ who paid for their sin.

And your old man of sin is never imparted the Righteousness of Christ. Your Old man has to be crucified with Christ and the New Creature posesses Christ in Him. When God now looks on you He ses CHRIST in you, not REFIRBISHED flesh.
---kathr4453 on 2/26/12


James 1:22 refers to the likes of SDAs. "beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was."

Consider it's context. Verses 17 speaking of "perfect gift" (Christ in us), and verse 21 "receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls".

Being a doer of the word is he who does the works of BELIEVING ON JESUS (John 6:29). They are baptized into Christ and therefore put on Christ, Gal 3:27.

But SDAs have FALLEN FROM GRACE (Gal 5:4) having forgotten what manner of man they were in Christ. They turned to works of the law and if it's of works then it is NO MORE GRACE, Rom 11:6
---Haz27 on 2/25/12


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---kathr4453 on 2/25/12
Righteousness by faith is the imputing and imparting of the results of Christ sinless life and atoning death. It includes both justification and sanctification. He imputes, or credits, to us the merits of His sinless experience to deliver us from the PENALTY of sin. This is justification. To deliver us from the power of sin, He does not merely reckon us as righteous, but He actually imparts the strength to OVERCOME sin.

No others Gods before me is what Abraham was obeying when he was ready to give up isaac his "only" son at God's command. In our days we speak about peoples' money, houses and cars as their gods, but anything, even our loved children ( ISAAC) placed above the God, is a god.
---francis on 2/25/12


James 1:22 be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James is saying here that if when I look at the perfect law of liberty, I see that I am an adulterer, I Just do not go on in adultery claiming that I cannot be justified by the law. What I do then is be a doer of the word by stoping the adultery, and God will bless this deed
---francis on 2/25/12


OK Francis, let me ask you this based on your scripture you posted out of James. Where in the LAW is human sacrifice and lying. Heathens did human sacrifice, and thou shall not LIE, therefore neither were justified by keeping the LAW.

And why is both Rahab, and Abraham listed in the hall of FAITH in Hebrews 11 pointing out these very same things.

Hebrews does not teach LAW but GRACE.
---kathr4453 on 2/25/12


francis, you want to believe that works saves so bad that you miss the whole context of the passages you gave. First of all Abraham was justified by faith way before the offerring of Isaac. James cannot mean that Abraham was justified by his works. He had already stressed that salvation is a gracious gift (1:17,18). James quoted (Gen. 15:6) which forcefully claims that God credited righteousness to Abraham solely on the basis of his faith. The works that james said justified Abraham was his offering up of Isaac.
On the passages concerning Ahab the harlot. She was not justified by her works of sinning, but demonstrated the reality of her saving faith, yet her works could not justify her since she sinned by lying. Sin does not justify anyone.
---Mark_V. on 2/25/12


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2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2 Corinthians 4:11 that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

The life of Christ MUST be shown in us and that includes obedience to the whole law. If the life of Jesus is shown in my mortal flesh ( this human flesh) then I must walk worthy of my calling in this human flesh, not in SIN but in obedience to the whole law of God
WHY? James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
---francis on 2/25/12


James 1:22 be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

2 Cor 13:5 Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

It is Christ in us that enables us to keep the whole law, otherwise we would be reprobates 2 Cor 4:11..the life of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
---francis on 2/25/12


---kathr4453 on 2/24/12

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

IMPARTED: Christ in us (2 Peter 1:4, 2 Corinthians 13:5,) enabing us to obey the law.
IMPUTED: the power of God to credit us with the righteousness of Jesus
---francis on 2/24/12


lee, Salvation is not a swap, but a participation on your part. When you need saved there is one thing that a soul must do in order to be saved, namely, repent. If you refuse to repent, then you will remain unsaved and stay separated from salvation.
---Eloy on 2/24/12


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Kathr. (Romans 2:13) is very true. God will justify any person who keeps the whole law. No one can. God says, "by the deeds of the Law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight" (Rom. 3:20). God will also save anyone who comes to Him, even though He has His elect. No one will come to Him because no faith has been granted to him. We are Justified by faith is because we cannot be justified by the law, because we cannot keep it all. The curse under which sinners have fallen, cannot be removed nor the transgressor release until full satisfaction has been made to it. Such satisfaction the sinner himself is utterly unable to render. He has to be made alive together with Christ, granting him faith to trust the Lord.
---Mark_V. on 2/24/12


Lee, that would be pretty cool! :)
---John.usa on 2/24/12


//Mark and Eloy, then salvation is a sort of tradeoff. God gives me salvation in exchange for my believing the right things. It's not a gift, it's a swap?

If I may comment here! If salvation was granted for believing all the right things, then no one on this forum will be given salvation as nearly everyone has differing convictions on one thing or another.

Yes, you are probably waiting from Jesus to stick His finger in your face so all doubt of your salvation is removed. Don't laugh, it could happen.
---lee1538 on 2/24/12


Mark and Eloy, then salvation is a sort of tradeoff. God gives me salvation in exchange for my believing the right things. It's not a gift, it's a swap?
---John.usa on 2/24/12


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//where does that leave the SDAs regarding being justified in their understanding of Rom 2:13?

The Adventist position is the minority viewpoint among Christians even on this forum.

scripture must be interpreted in light of other scripture.

Php. 3:8-9 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith-
---lee1538 on 2/24/12


As "imparted" righteousness allegedly refers to those of us who are "doers of the law" then where does that leave the SDAs regarding being justified (in their understanding of Rom 2:13)?

ALL SDAs I know conduct no better a lifestyle than other Christians. And SDAs even fail to observe Sabbath correctly whilst condemning others for not following their works of law doctrine.

You can't mix law and grace. "IF BY GRACE THEN IT IS NO MORE WORKS...BUT IF IT BE OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO MORE GRACE" Rom 11:6

God says to those judging righteousness by the law:
"Christ has become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law: ye are FALLEN FROM GRACE" Gal 5:4
---Haz27 on 2/24/12


IMPARTED RIGHTEOUSNESS

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law:

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by WORKS a man is justified, and not by FAITH only.
---francis on 2/24/12


francis, (Rom. 2:13) is correct. If you could keep the whole law you would be justified. ///

Wrong, Long before the Law, Abraham was JUSTIFIED by faith, so was Abel, SO scripture has NEVER taught that justification could even remotely or even possibly come by keeping the Law, even if one could keep the Law.
---kathr4453 on 2/24/12


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Your taking justification and righteousness as the same meaning. The justification in Romans is for men women and children not to God.
The defining factor is actually in James 2:14-26. you ought to read those maybe they will clarify the issue for you.
---Joshua_Williams on 2/24/12


francis, (Rom. 2:13) is correct. If you could keep the whole law you would be justified. But no one can keep the whole law. The passages are talking about those under the law.
"Therefore you are 'inexcusable' O man, whoever you are who judge for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself, for you who judge practice the same things" (Rom. 2:1) He tells them they are treasuring up for themselves wrath in the day of Judgment. Who will render to each one according to his deeds.
"But the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the law and the prophets, "even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all who believe" (Rom. 3:21,22).
---Mark_V. on 2/24/12


Imparted righteousness, in Methodist theology, is that gracious gift of God given at the moment of the new birth which enables a Christian disciple to strive for holiness and sanctification. John Wesley believed that imparted righteousness worked in tandem with imputed righteousness.

Imputed righteousness is the righteousness of Jesus credited to the Christian, enabling the Christian to be justified, imparted righteousness is what God does in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit after justification, working in the Christian to enable and empower the process of sanctification (and, in Wesleyan thought, Christian perfection).

from Wikipedia.
---lee1538 on 2/24/12


IMPARTED RIGHTEOUSNESS

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law:

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness
---francis on 2/23/12


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John.usa, Each soul has the freedom of choice to either be saved or else to burn. If you choose to burn, it is all on you, for Jesus already provided the way of salvation, and the only way to escape the fires of hell is through willful repentance.
---Eloy on 2/23/12


Johnusa, as long as you don't have faith in Jesus Christ works and resurrection, you are doomed. But while alive there is still hope. You might feel like making remarks about the word of God now, as many do, but you could one day believe through faith and be saved. If you don't ever believe by faith, you will be counted as one who was destined to for doom.
"The Lord has made all for Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of doom" (Prov. 16:4).
---Mark_V. on 2/24/12


"How does one reconcile these 2 verses? One does not. "
Romans 2:13 Speaks to those under the law. And "we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. For by the works of the law no one shall be justified." Man can only be "justified by the faith of Christ. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse," But "I through the law [of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus] died to the law [of sin and death] that I might live to God." Because anyone seeking to be justified by that law, has fallen from grace. Rom 3:19>Gal. 2:16> Gal 3:10>Gal 2:19>Gal 5:4
---Josef on 2/24/12


Mark, I guess I'm doomed. I can't have faith unless God gives it. So I guess I am what blogger Christian would call a Predestined Reprobate. Oh well, I'll just burn then, praise God.
---John.usa on 2/23/12


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Johnusa, the reason it's so hard for you to believe is because you lack saving faith which comes from God. Not your own works. If you had it, you would believe Scripture is the word of God, and through the word comes salvation, because His word brings faith. How can you ever understand anything if you have no faith?
---Mark_V. on 2/23/12


//If we say we believe in Jesus Christ then we will follow the law to the best of our ability, if we don't then we don't have faith.
---
Wrong, as scripture is very clear that the righteous are to live by faith depending upon the righteousness that is in Christ.

Romans 1:17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from start to finish, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

Galatians 3,11 Now it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, BECAUSE the righteous will live by faith.
---lee1538 on 2/23/12


These are 2 different laws. The 1st one in Rm.2:13 is speaking about the law of "Doing Good to one another", this is God's 2nd Commandment, "You will love your neighbor as you love yourself." And the 2nd one in Gal.2:16 is about the law of "ceremony and ordinances and rules and regulations: dietary laws, fastings, observing certain days and times, et cetera", and keeping these laws will not make any soul righteous. In other words, no matter how many baths you take and wash yourself with soap and nitre, if you are an evil person the bath cannot wash your inside clean. God is love, and when you embrace him, then he can change your heart and wash clean your insides: a clean heart and a clean mind is God's will.
---Eloy on 2/23/12


Clarence//f we say we believe in Jesus Christ then we will follow the law to the best of our ability, if we don't then we don't have faith.
---
Do you mean moral law or the Mosaic law many of which were fulfilled by christ.

There is a law that one should not only observe the OT sabbath, but refrain from lighting a fire in our homes on the Sabbath (Exodus 35:3).

Or do you simply agree that the Christian strives to obey only those laws that are applicable?
---lee1538 on 2/23/12


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If we say we believe in Jesus Christ then we will follow the law to the best of our ability, if we don't then we don't have faith.
---Clarence on 2/23/12


I'm pretty convinced that I am not saved, and can't be. One person says one needs to believe the whole Bible is literally true, another, that one must keep Shabbat, another that one must reject free will, another that one should become Orthodox. And all these people claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit. Are they really? It's too hard to know what to believe. I give up.
---John.usa on 2/23/12


Barb, you must have something very wrong with Paul in your mind the way you write about him.
First of all Paul was not a robber. The copyist used a very strong word when all Paul was doing was getting support from Churches while he miinstered to the Corinthians and those churches never received direct benefit from the support they gave him. It does not in no way mean he was taking money from churches without their consent. Only a twisted mind would think that.
You see, Paul never took money from the Corinthians perhaps some of them were suspicious of his motives in promoting the offering for the Jerusalem church (12:16-18) as suspicious as you are on his motives.
---Mark_V. on 2/23/12


Those verses can't be reconciled. Why did Paul rob a church? He talks and talks about faith in God but he himself doesn't have enough faith to believe God will provide funds to the churches so he robs one to pay the other. 2nd Cor. 11:8. Jesus told HIS disciples not to worry about food, money, provisions etc. because their Heavenly Father knows what their needs are. Matt 6:26-32.

You are wasting your time trying reconcile verses Paul wrote because he talks with a forked tongue and probably still has some scales stuck in his eyes.
---barb on 2/22/12


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Who says they conflict?

I don't.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/22/12


If you choose to have God as "Abba FATHER" instead of "MASTER", then you already have His favor "SON" (Luke 6:35 "son of the most high").

Romans 8:15 "spirit of sonship"......God DOES NOT want to be "MASTER" of you...Titus 1:8 "lover of goodness, master of himself" or do you need to BE COMMANDED? "good and right and true" Ephesians 5:8.

Growing up, my dad didn't COMMAND me to be good. The "churchES" only teach "milk". Learn PRINCIPLES of holiness. Have a "mature" relationship of "perfect love" for God (not "PERFECT" love for MAN) LOVE is the "greatest of these", 1 Corinthians 13:13. with GOD.
---more_excellent_way on 2/22/12


Never speak using 'religious lingo', you'll confuse the meanings of words. The word "GRACE" refers to HOW a gift is given (in a GRACIOUS MANNER so that nothing is expected in return (as opposed to an IMPERIALISTIC manner).

The same thing with the word FAITH. I have faith/trust in the laws of physics, but I don't LOVE/honor them. If you truly LOVE God, you will want to "draw near" to Him with "faith for faith" Romans 1:17.
Hebrews 11:6 "faith that He exists....He is a rewarder".

1 John 4:18 "PERFECT LOVE casts out fear"....don't FEAR God, LOVE Him.

It is ALWAYS very important to NOT USE "religious lingo" in order to keep your own understanding straight.
---more_excellent_way on 2/22/12


Rom 2:13 Is speaking of the Jews, the nation of Israel under law.
Gal. 2:16 Is speaking to Jew and Gentile, the body of Christ, under Grace.
---michael_e on 2/22/12


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These verses are very difficult to reconcile to one's satisfaction because there are so many theologies out there which define Grace and Faith.
People simply will not accept any definition that goes against their doctrine.

Example:
Jesus taught in (John 14:21) that God loves those who keep his commands.
Here Jesus taught that if we are to gain the favor of God, we must do what he tells us to do.

Many teach that we don't have to do anything to gain God's favor.(Grace being unmerited favor)
They must reject what Christ taught simply because it goes against their doctrinal definition of Grace. They say they follow Christ, but the pride they have in their doctrines, prevent them from following the teachings of Christ.
---David on 2/22/12


If you want to be a "doer" of the old IMPERFECT law of sin and death, don't obey the PERFECT law.

James 1:25 "But he who looks into the perfect law...".

Many believers rather not comply with the "perfect law", but instead rather have a rigorous devotion that consists of restrictions and regulations. There is NO TEXT and NO REGULATIONS/rules/ordinances to the law of liberty.

Compliance to this law yields no PRIDE,...it's not viewed by man as HEROIC (nobody will pat you on the back).

Colossians 2:23
"an appearance of wisdom in promoting rigor of devotion".

Colossians 2:20 "Why do you submit to regulations?".

"by ABOLISHING" (Ephesians 2:15).
---more_excellent_way on 2/21/12


Paul is arguing that God can judge because he is perfect. Therefore only perfect people will be justified and pass the wrath of God. Jesus said "your rigteousness must surpass the pharisees to be declared righteous". Therefore you need grace which is Paul's argument in Ch 3:21. Look at the entire argument (Ch 1-7) not just the individual verses.
Gal 2:16. Grace is sufficent and Peter had fear of man issues and acted like gentiles were second class Christians until Paul corrected.
Paul is writing Romans in a proof style that was broken up by chapter and verse. Galatians is written bluntly and to the point. Read John MacArthur's commentaries on the two books they are awesome I am in Galatians now.
---Scott1 on 2/21/12


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