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Early Church Doctrine

To what extent should our understanding of doctrine be dependent upon what the early church believed?

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 ---lee1538 on 2/24/12
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---StrongAxe on 3/1/12
I am not suggesting that everything is a shadow. i am suggesting that "meat and drink.." Which are a shadow of things to come, Col 2:17 Is not a reference to diet as in clean and unclean meats. It is a reference to the meat offering which is a shadow of the body of Jesus killed for us, and the drink offering which is a shadow of the blood of Jesus shed for us.

This is given ~5 times in the bible two in the OT and three in the NT.

Some people think that is text means that we can eat whatever we want

Also this text Matthew 15:20 but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Does not give permision to eat anything. It warns that eating with UNWASHED hands does not defile
---francis on 3/2/12


Jerry// but once again your pagan, Bible-corrupting church fathers have led you into another blind alley.

That is part of your problem. The Adventist church believes the church became corrupted even before the death of the last Apostle and that their immediate successors really did not know Jesus enough to see the truth.

In that Adventism has much in common with Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses and other cults that believe they were annointed by God to bear truth to others.

Yes, Adventism really has to condemn the early church since much of what Adventism believes was not even heard of.

Studing other languages (I had courses in Greek, French & German) is very beneficial in understanding English.
---lee1538 on 3/2/12


Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat,...Which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.

What if we let the bible interprete itself?

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year
Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

If we let the bible interprete itself, are meats in colosians diet / clean and unclean, or are they meat offering sacrificed in until good thing canme: THE SACRIFIE OF JESUS
---francis on 3/2/12


Warwick:

I asked about species because most creationists say evolution is impossible because they claim speciation is impossible.


jerry6593:

If you are a Jew living under the convenant of Moses, THE LAW applies to you. Christians live under the convenant of Christ, not Moses, so it does NOT apply to us.

You said: WeakHatchet: No Christian has the right to tell others that they are justified in violating GOD's Ten Commandment Law.

Paul said, in Colossians 2:16
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days"

I think I will believe Paul over Jerry.
---StrongAxe on 3/2/12


th apex=once delivered=for all

Jerry, if I were you I would not challenge those who have translated the modern versions from the Greek. You really have to be an idiot to do that thinking you are more knowledgeable.
---lee1538 on 3/2/12




Leest: Your Greek class seems to have destroyed your ability to comprehend English. In what universe is "once" equivalent to "for all"? Nice try, but once again your pagan, Bible-corrupting church fathers have led you into another blind alley.


WeakHatchet: No Christian has the right to tell others that they are justified in violating GOD's Ten Commandment Law.

Mat 5:18 ... Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law


---jerry6593 on 3/2/12


francis:

You speak as if EVERYTHING is a shadow of Christ. Is the internet (say) a shadow of Christ? If so, how does it fit in with old testament law? If not, it means not everything is a shadow.

Jesus himself said that we are not defiled by what goes in our mouth, but what comes out of it. Eating swine does NOT defile us - but placing yokes back on people that Jesus already removed DOES.

Now, if you feel that you shouldn't eat pork, feel free to abstain. But if I want to have a ham sandwich, you shouldn't be one to condemn me for it, or say that God condemns me for it either.
---StrongAxe on 3/1/12


Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink...Which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.

What if we let the bible interprete itself?

Hebrews 9:8 ..the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Hebrews 9:9 Which was a figure (SHADOW)..
Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks,.. imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come,

If we let the bible interprete itself, are meats and drink in colosians diet / clean and unclean, or are they meat offering and drink offering offered in the first tabanacle unto Jesus came?
---francis on 3/1/12


Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.

Can you explain how swine, and shrimp are shadows of Jesus or good things to come?

Compare swine to the passover meat offering
compare shrimp to the drink offering of the samctuary.

It is easy to see how Jesus is the passover meat offering, and his blood the drink offering of the sanctuary

So how is swine and shrimp a shadow of good things to come?
---francis on 3/1/12


StrongAxe //No Christian has the right to tell others that they are wrong to not observe the Jewish dietary and holiday and sabbath laws:

Totally agree, nor does anyone that calls himself a Christian have any right to tell others they must observe the Jewish Sabbath or the Levitical dietary laws.

Romans 14 gives the right for the individual to follow their own convictions on these matters.

The epistle to the Romans was written largely to a Gentile church that had a conflict with Jewish Christians who felt that the old covnenat laws were still in effect.
---lee1538 on 3/1/12




StrongAxe, you play dumb!

I am sure you know the term 'human kind.' Humans are 1 kind, and 1 species as all can breed, producing viable offspring. Likewise the dog kind are also 1 species for the same reason.

Species are a development from the original kinds. As I have carefully pointed out many times a species arises via loss or corruption of genetic information. Arctic terns (a bird) which are visually indentical can no longer all breed because of loss or corruption of genetic information. They are now still 1 kind but different species.

Speciation occurs slowly so the number of species today is more than existed 1,000 years ago, more than 2,000 years ago leading back to when there were no species.
---Warwick on 3/1/12


Jerry //The words "for all" do not appear in the original Greek Textus Receptus.

Having taken a course in Greek grammar, it is easy to see it is really a matter of selection of what English word best expresses the Greek.

From the Zondervan Parallel NT in Greek & English, the Greek being from the Textus Receptus, we have the following transliteral.

Beloved, all haste making to write to you concerning the common of us salvation, necessity I had to write to you exhorting to contend for the once delivered to the saints faith.

In the KJV "once delivered" is the same as the ESV "for all delivered".

Have you sunk down to being a KJV Onlyist? More than stupid!
---lee1538 on 3/1/12


jerry6593:

No Christian has the right to tell others that they are wrong to not observe the Jewish dietary and holiday and sabbath laws:

Colossians 2:16
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days"
---StrongAxe on 3/1/12


Warwick:

What the word "kind" meant, it does not affect the argument. There are more species on earth today than would fit on the ark two by two.

If "kind" meant species, we have a problem of "how did they all fit?"

If "kind" meant anything LESS than species (and just WHAT it meant is irrelevant), each pair of animals on the ark represented only one species (or at most two). If there are more species today than there were on the ark, then how did they get here? They must have descended (i.e. evolved) from the ones that WERE on the ark - so even if one KIND does not evolve from another KIND, one SPECIES surely must be able to do so.
---StrongAxe on 2/29/12


Leest: I thought so - New Age Bible versions. The words "for all" do not appear in the original Greek Textus Receptus.

And Leest you cannot find a single command or even a hint of a command in the Bible for Christians to oberve Sunday or dismiss the dietary laws. You follow only the later pagan church fathers and the subsequent Cathilocism which they spawned.


---jerry6593 on 3/1/12


StrongAxe you do not read Scripture or what I have written. Genesis ch. 1 shows (9 times) God created 'kinds.' Read Genesis ch's. 6 and 7 and see God says only 'kinds' of creatures were to be taken upon the ark. No mention of species.

I have carefully explained speciation to you but you either haven't read it or do not comprehend. A species is a creature within a kind which either by loss or corruption of genetic information can no longer breed with others of its kind. This is a conservative process, not one which would provide the totally new, unique, specific genetic information to turn one kind of creature into another as per evolutionary theory.

It is obviously irrelevant for the flood epic how many species exist today.
---Warwick on 2/29/12


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Warwick:

Do you believe that species can evolve from other species?

If so, it means God using evolution to create life is at least plausible.

If not, how do you explain the fact that there are many more species on earth today than could possibly have fit on an ark the size of the one Noah built?
---StrongAxe on 2/29/12


//I don't see the words "FOR ALL"

Now you wish to divert the subject to something else?

Jude 3 NIV, NKJV,ESV, WEY, RSV, HCSB, NLT Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

And Jerry you cannot find a single command or even a hint of a command in the Bible for Christians to oberve the Sababth or the dietary laws. All you can point to is some contorted reasoning that since the Jews observed the Sabbath, Christians must also do so.

Sorry, but you really need to read the Bible without the blinders from Ellen White.
---lee1538 on 2/29/12


StrongAxe your desire to force Gods supernatural creation to fit with naturalistic evolution shows what you really believe. Not only is the order of creation opposite to evolutions imagined order but God says He created in 6 days. In Exodus 20:8-11 God commands the Israelites to work 6 24hr days and rest the 7th 24hr day. WHY? "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day." God commands them to work 6 ordinary days because he created in 6 ordinary days, and to rest the 7th because He did so. Or are you saying the Israelites days were each billions of years?

I give Biblical support for my belief but you talk of Biblically unsupported possibilities!
---Warwick on 2/29/12


Leest: You must have missed this the first time. Try again.

The Bible says:

Jud 1:3 .... that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

I don't see the words "FOR ALL" in there. And I take this to mean "the saints" that saw and heard Jesus, not the disciples of the later pagan church fathers. So what's your point in always quoting this new age version of Jude 3?


---jerry6593 on 2/29/12


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Who follows another church follows Heresy... almost all churches!!!

No one church can claim they follow exactly what the New T church of God taught because their too wrapped up in the doctrines of devils to understand plain Black and white teachings hence the many churches, many names and many doctrines.

And any poor soul who tries to gets over run with garbage regardless.

I follow the word and read other books, accept what is backed up and reject what is not... Have no time for preachers and their lil money making scams, most churches are dens led by thieves, pagan traditions and values.
---Carla on 2/29/12


Warwick:

God's word said "God created life". It does NOT ANYWHERE say "life did not evolve". It is INDEED possible to believe that God created life using evolution as the mechanism. So it is NOT an either/or proposition. The idea that the two are mutually exclusive is NOT something written in the actual bible, but rather, something YOU read between the lines.
---StrongAxe on 2/28/12


Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for jerry to tell me which of the church fathers were pagan and which of them he has actually read.

Do you think he ever will?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/28/12


The Jewish establishment approved of the fact they were making Gentiles Jewish, these false teachers have the best of both worlds, they have created a sect of which they are the leaders, and they also escape any Jewish persecution.

the division in the Galatian chruch was primarily over the issues of circumcision and law that the false teachers have raised (5:15).

Christians are to live in the guidance and power of the Spirit (ch. 5-6). "For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, for it is written "cursed be everyone who does not abide by ALL THINGS in the book of the Law and do them."

Adventists are under a curse, for they themselves really do NOT abide by ALL THINGS written in the law.
---lee1538 on 2/28/12


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StrongAxe, you are right it is an either or situation. Either you accept the truth of God's word, or you don't. You don't.
---Warwick on 2/28/12


they desired to avoid persecution.

The Jewish religious leaders still had significant political influence in many areas. They had the official sanction of Rome, hence, many Jewish believers were eager to maintain good relations with them. By circumcising Gentiles and teaching them to observe the Torah, the troublemakers in Galatia could find a point of common ground with the local Jews. Not only would this allow them to maintain friendly contact with the synagogues, but they could even strengthen their ties with the Jewish believers in Jerusalem, who had a growing suspicion about the work being done with the Gentiles (Acts 21:20, 21). No doubt, too, in one sense their actions could have made their witness to the Jews more effective.
---francis on 2/28/12


---StrongAxe on 2/28/12
Galation 4:17 They zealously court you, but for no good, yes, they want to exclude you, that you may be zealous for them
Galation 6:12-13 As many as desire to "make a good showing in the flesh," these would compel you to be circumcised, only "that they may not suffer persecution" for the cross of Christ. For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh
---francis on 2/28/12


francis:

How can you assume that nobody will believe it, if it's true? Surely SOMEBODY will believe it, even if many won't.

Why don't you share your wisdom with us, regardless of how many will believe it, rather than just dangling a holographic carrot in front of us, expecting us to bite?

Regardless of WHY they did it, they were told they were WRONG to do it.
---StrongAxe on 2/28/12


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Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

It is obvious from even a casual reading of Scripture that many in the early church esp. Jewish Christians continued to follow the law of Moses and even demanded it of Gentile converts.

This was the situation that led to the Jerusalem council that had to decide what Gentiles needed to do in order to be legitimate.

The determinating factor seems to have been that the Holy Spirit was being given to Gentile believers.

15:8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,
---lee1538 on 2/28/12


Those Pharisees who had become Christians still held on to their beliefs that one needed to keep the WHOLE law of Moses
---StrongAxe on 2/27/12

NOPE

If i gave the answer, it would never be believed. I am hoping that those who truely want to know will find it in the NT and agree with it for themselves

HINTS:
1: It is was not a missunderstanding of the new covenant
2: It was not a desire to hold on to the law of Moses
---francis on 2/27/12


Strongaxe, I agree with your answer. We, as believers in Christ Jesus, have been released from the bondage of the law. We have received Christ. Who is by nature Love, and is with us, and love conquers all, fulfills all. Paul gives us four commandments in (Romans 13:9) and after giving them, he says,
"Love does no harm to a neighbor: therefore love is the fulfillment of the Law" (v.10). We love our neighbor, because it is Christ in us. When we love God, it is because of Christ in us. Every believer has this true Love (Christ).
If there is no love in us, there is no Christ in us.
---Mark_V. on 2/28/12


francis:

Those Pharisees who had become Christians still held on to their beliefs that one needed to keep the WHOLE law of Moses - which Paul pointed out is NOT necessary. Jesus died to free us from bondage to the law, yet some people still don't get it.
---StrongAxe on 2/27/12


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Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, AND to command them to keep the law of Moses.
---lee1538 on 2/27/12

The NT tells us why these phrasees taught gentiles that they should be circumcised. Do you know why they did that?
---francis on 2/27/12


Concerning the Sabbath: this day was established on the seventh day of creation, before the jews were born. Besides, pray that your flight be not on the sabbath day.

Concerning the ten commandments: God's word was, is and ever shall be - forever.

Concerning Christ fulfilling the law: Jesus fulfilled the prophesies concerning him only.

Concerning the Sabbath (again): the sabbath was, is and always on Saturday.

Concerning interpretations of scripture: from what scriptures were the Bareans searching? Walk into any christian bookstore and see the many authors having their own interpretions. How many interpretations of the rapture, for instance?

K.I.S.S.
---Steveng on 2/27/12


francis //There is no biblical evidence to support this claim.

Do you read the Bible with blinders on?

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, AND to command them to keep the law of Moses.

The decision made at Jerusalem was that Gentiles needed no undergo circumcision and if they did they would then be obligated to observe all the laws that were uniquely Jewish.

(15:11) But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.
Anyone familiar at all with early church history should be able to see that Gentiles did NOT have to convert to Judaism to be legit.
---lee1538 on 2/27/12


"According to Luke, the church, at first, had NOT worked out the full implications of its Easter experience, and to a great extent, merely ran on in the well-worn grooves of Jewish piety." p. 121 From Sabbath to Lord's Day,.. DA Carson.

---lee1538 on 2/27/12
There is no biblical evidence to support this claim.

there are two reason given when gentiles were taught to circumcise, do you remember what they were?
---francis on 2/27/12


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\\John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:\\

You don't actually think this is talking about the SDA, do you?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/27/12


francis//You do understand that is is unsubstanciated report by DA Carson don't you?

The book complied by Carson is by several authors, and has to be the most thorough investigation of the issue of the Sabbath ever produced. There is extensive documentation.

You post a disagreement believing that all you believe has to be true, but the fact is your are really unteachable refusing to consider the facts that others have uncovered.

All you have been able to do is to twist the daylights out of Scripture in order to impose your erroneous beliefs unto others.

Will you be the least in the Kingdom of God? Or will you end up in the same place as that of Ellen White and her minions?
---lee1538 on 2/27/12


Jerry: If you would read the Bible more and your false prophetes less, you might learn what it actually teaches that there is no such thing as an investigative judgement.

Sorry Jerry but there are many former SDA pastors & theologians as well as others that have studied the Bible in detail and have conclude that this doctrine is wrong and really cannot be supported by scripture.

And as to the topic here, such doctrine was NOT taught in the early church and that alone should make it suspect.
---lee1538 on 2/27/12


"According to Luke, the church, at first, had NOT worked out the full implications of its Easter experience, and to a great extent, merely ran on in the well-worn grooves of Jewish piety." p. 121 From Sabbath to Lord's Day,.. DA Carson.

---lee1538 on 2/27/12
You do understand that is is unsubstanciated report by DA Carson don't you? This rejects the power of the holy spirit to teach the apostles as promised by God,and instead left the apostles to figure out things for themselves.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:
Acts 1:2 after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
---francis on 2/27/12


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\\ And I take this to mean "the saints" that saw and heard Jesus, not the disciples of the later pagan church fathers.\\

Two questions, jerry:

1. Which of the church fathers were pagan?

2. Which ones have you actually read?

Give specific answers with both, please.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/27/12


francis - you have yet to deal with the scripture that speaks of the 10 commandments as being the ministry of death & condemnation.

2 Cor. 3:7-9 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance, which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

This was penned when the church was in the process of separting itself from its Jewish roots.
---lee1538 on 2/27/12


Misinterpretation of Acts 15:21 without its context and true meaning will lead one down a slippery slope.
One does not go to a believing congregation to find converts, He goes to the unbelievers, the Jews first (see the word synagogue?) and then the Gentiles. Most of the city came to him--where he was--the unbelievers--for conversion.
This is not where the church was meeting for the Jews oustest all whom they believed were blasphemers, which included Christians.
Paul was there on the Sabbath because that is when and where most unbelieving Jews congregated.
Be Berean--Search the scriptures and you'll find it to be so...
---micha9344 on 2/27/12


francis//Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day

You are yet to deal with the impact of this verse on the converted gentiles
---
Quite the contrary!

During the very early years the church was in transition from its Jewish roots.

"According to Luke, the church, at first, had NOT worked out the full implications of its Easter experience, and to a great extent, merely ran on in the well-worn grooves of Jewish piety." p. 121 From Sabbath to Lord's Day, a Biblical, historical & theological Investigation, DA Carson.

When we get to Acts 15, things started to change when it has to be decided what was required of Gentiles.
---lee1538 on 2/27/12


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---lee1538 on 2/26/12
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day

You are yet to deal with the impact of this verse on the converted gentiles

Does this text encurage or discourage gentile converts from keeping the sabbath?
---francis on 2/26/12


Lee: If you would read the Bible more and your pagan "church fathers" less, you might learn what it actually teaches - including the investigative judgement.

And where do you keep getting this adulterated scripture:

"the faith that was once FOR ALL delivered to the saints."

The Bible says:

Jud 1:3 .... that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

I don't see the words "FOR ALL" in there. And I take this to mean "the saints" that saw and heard Jesus, not the disciples of the later pagan church fathers. So what's your point in always quoting this new age version of Jude 3?


---jerry6593 on 2/27/12


francis //Do you have a problem taking a day off from work, or do you only have a problem with the day which God said we shoudl take off from work?
---
And what 'day' did God tell His church to take a day off?
New Testament book, chapter & verse please.

You guys do not observe the Jewish sabbath the way it was to be observed anyhow. You merely think in your heads that observing the Sabbath is having communal worship on Saturday and not going to work at your employment.

Of course, observing the Jewish Sabbath is the least of your problems as there are far worst problems with Adventism.
---lee1538 on 2/26/12


//Christ kept the sabbath, he did not fukfill the sabbath as he did the sanctuary laws.

A view supported only by Adventists, not by Biblical expositors.

Since Jesus observed the Sabbath, must we also do so?

Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem (meaning to free)those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

The Adventist contention that we must convert to Judaism to become legit is totally false. That is all to easy to see from any study of what the early church believed.
---lee1538 on 2/26/12


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Jerry, you wrote to Lee, if you would read your Bible more and your pagan "church fathers" less you might learn what it actually teaches.

Jerry why don't you stop being a hypocrite and follow the advice you have given to Lee?

Why don't you throw away the writings and teachings of the FALSE PROPHET, Ellen G. White, and read the Bible?
---Rob on 2/26/12


LEEJ let me ask you this:
Do you have a problem taking a day off from work, or do you only have a problem with the day which God said we shoudl take off from work?
---francis on 2/26/12


The sabbath command merely reflected back to that rest of God at Creation (Ex.20:11). Hebrews 4 tells us that those who have believed in Christ have entered into that rest. So our rest is in Christ, not in one day of the week.

The righteous live by faith, not by law. Romans 1:17, Gal. 3:11

The church gathers together on the Lord's Day, sunday in accordance to those traditions established by the Apostles. 2 Th. 2:15

We can all too easy see that from Church history since the norm for communal worship was to gather on sundays by 135 AD.

So a knowledge of early church history is important in understanding doctrine.
---lee1538 on 2/26/12


And we can say with total certainly that Christ fulfilled the Sabbath law as He became the rest for the believers.
---lee1538 on 2/25/12

Christ kept the sabbath, he did not fukfill the sabbath as he did the sanctuary laws

Christ became passover lamb filfulling the type in the sanctuary
He became the high priest fulfillingthe type in the sanctuary
His body became the veil of the samctury bearing our sins

But Christ did not become the 7th day of the week
The evidence of that is the great number of bible verses in the NT pointing to worship on the sabbath day

The sabbath is no greater a commandment than thou shall not kill or steal, and we do not say that we can steal because christ fulfiled the law
---francis on 2/25/12


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Lee: If you would read the Bible more and your pagan "church fathers" less, you might learn what it actually teaches - including the investigative judgement.

And where do you keep getting this adulterated scripture:

"the faith that was once FOR ALL delivered to the saints."

The Bible says:

Jud 1:3 .... that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

I don't see the words "FOR ALL" in there. And I take this to mean "the saints" that saw and heard Jesus, not the disciples of the later pagan church fathers. So what's your point in always quoting this new age version of Jude 3?


---jerry6593 on 2/26/12


The main doctrine is Love. This is what God is telling us to do, have love for one another. Kosher eating or sabbath keeping may be important to some, and to others not. But the main thing is whatsoever you do, you do it to the glory of God, in faith being thankful to God. And if you feel one piece of doctrine is more important than your Christian brother or sister does, then allow your brothers and sisters to have their freedom, and do not put a stumbling block in the path of their joy. And likewise, you brother and sister whom are more liberal with your pieces of doctrine, do not critic nor put a stumbling block in the path of them whom obtain goodness for practicing their strict adherences in their Christian faith.
---Eloy on 2/25/12


francis//Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
---
And we can say with total certainly that Christ fulfilled the Sabbath law as He became the rest for the believers.

It is all too easy to see that there is virtually no command in the New Covenant for Christians to observe the Sabbath and from Romans 14 it is very explicit that one may or may not observe any day as holy.

Those that promote sabbath keeping really belong to that old circumcision party from Mt. Sinai Galatians 4.24f
---lee1538 on 2/25/12


The importance to understanding what the early church fathers believed as to doctrine is the means to opening up our understanding of Jude 3.

Jude 3 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

Exactly what was that "faith that was once for all delivered to the saints"? In other words, what was its content?
---lee1538 on 2/25/12


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The pagan practices that brought about the apostate church as prophecied by Daniel 7:23 The fourth beast ( ROME).. shall.. think to change times and laws:
Is NOT the early church

I will stick to the true early church taught and nurtured by the apostles to whom Jesus says: Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
---francis on 2/25/12


//Define "EARLY CHURCH".

The early church is a term used by Bible expositors to refer to that body of believers in Christ prevalent after the Cross.

While church historians recognize the fact that there was diversity of doctrinal beliefs in the early church - on the Eucharist, on the Sabbath, etc. these writings are useful to the extent that they establish precedence on what we believe today.

Sorry Jerry boy, but you can spend the next 100 years reading the writings of the church fathers for the first 1000 years and you will not find anything that would resemble the SDA Investigative Judgment belief.
---lee1538 on 2/25/12


We should look in the bible for the right doctrines to believe.
In the early church, that is those established by the apostles, epistles had several common phrases:

Acts 15:15 as it is written,
Romans 2:24 as it is written
1 Peter 1:16 it is written,

Acts 18:28 the scriptures
Romans 16:26 the scriptures

Acts 13:44 word of God.
1 Timothy 4:5 the word of God.

These phrases "it is written" "the scriptures" and " the word of God" as used in the writings of the NT, referrs to what was written in the OT

which says that our understanding of doctrine should be based on both OT and NT.
---francis on 2/25/12


Define "EARLY CHURCH".

If you mean Jesus' Apostles and all His disciples, then they believed what Jesus taught by word and example - including the Old Testament and the Ten Commandments.

If you mean the period after all the original disciples had died, then these "church fathers", being Greek Gnostics, introduced an element of paganism into church doctrine.

I prefer to stick with the original, rather than a later counterfeit gospel.


---jerry6593 on 2/25/12


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Acts 2 v's 38 - 41 Fulfills Matt.28 v's 19 - 20.
Acts 2 v 38 was delivered to the Jewish people First by Apostle Peter on the day of Pentecost. This Is the teachings of the Apostles.

If God was double minded, He would have gave Apostle Peter One Gospel & then to another Apostle a diff gospel. Thank God He didn't. They All taught the Same Salvation Message, Acts 2 v 38, beginning with Apostle Peter on the day of Pentecost.
---Lawrence on 2/25/12


I think people should rely upon the New Testament scriptures themselves for right doctrine to believe.
---Eloy on 2/24/12


EARLY CHURCH would have to mean the churches started by, and taught by the apostles:
Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine...

This would exclude " the church fathers" from the early church.

This early church taught the word of God in evetry city, every sabbath day.
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Acts 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was always made,

and were joined by Gentiles in worship NEXT SABBATH to hear the word of God

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
---francis on 2/24/12


lee1538* 1. The Didache (~140 AD) to the Lords Supper merely as spiritual food & drink.

They did mention that the Lord's supper 'SO THAT YOUR SACRIFICE MAY BE PURE'

lee1538* 2. Justin Martyr (~100) wrote the elements were bread & wine which were inaugurated by Christ as a memorial

IS BOTH THE FLESH AND THE BLOOD OF THAT INCARNATED JESUS. (First Apology 66)


lee1538* 3. Irenaeus of Lyons (~140) viewed the elements as composed of 2 realities - one earthly & one spiritually.

When, therefore, the mixed cup and the baked bread receives the Word of God and BECOMES THE EUCHARIST, THE BODY OF CHRIST (Against Heresies 5:2:2-3)
---Ruben on 2/24/12


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lee1538 * 4. Tertullian (~155 AD) viewed the bread & wine as symbols or figures that represented the body & blood of Christ.

The flesh feeds on THE BODY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST, (Resurrection of the Dead 8:3)

lee1538* 5. Augustine (~354 AD) taught the Sacraments are signs & figures

THE BREAD IS THE BODY OF CHRIST AND THE CHALICE [WINE] THE BLOOD OF CHRIST." (Sermons 272)

In both Tertulian and Augustine symbols signs, Jesus said the same thing:

Jonah will be in the belly three days and nights and knock this builting down and three days I will raise it. Both became a reality, you do agree!


lee1538 6. the list goes on...

You might want to stop:)
---Ruben on 2/24/12


Probably no one can be trusted. You're entirely on your own. Best wishes!
---John.usa on 2/24/12


the early church differed on the Eucharist.

1. The Didache (~140 AD) referred to the Lords Supper merely as spiritual food & drink. No indication the elements were transformed.

2. Justin Martyr (~100) wrote the elements were bread & wine which were inaugurated by Christ as a memorial & remembrance of his body & blood.

3. Irenaeus of Lyons (~140) viewed the elements as composed of 2 realities - one earthly & one spiritually.

4. Tertullian (~155 AD) viewed the bread & wine as symbols or figures that represented the body & blood of Christ.

5. Augustine (~354 AD) taught the Sacraments are signs & figures which represent or symbolize spiritual realities.

6. the list goes on...
---lee1538 on 2/24/12


And there was major differences regarding the Eucharist (latter).
---lee1538 on 2/24/12

Waiting for this one:)
---Ruben on 2/24/12


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"A Christian is 100% dependent on the Holy Spirit to give him understanding and wisdom to God's Words"
"The Christian is to put his trust in God and not man for the understanding of doctrines, and everything else in his life."
Agree Christan. The Spirit leads us into all truth
---Chria9396 on 2/24/12


It is hard to distinguish any commonality in the early church as to doctrine.

For instance according to From Sabbath to Lord's Day by DA Carson, p. 255 there were really 4 major views regarding the Sabbath.

1. The legalistic Jewish Christians who regarding observance of all the law for salvation.

2. Jewish Christians who continued to keep the Sabbath but did not require it of Gentiles.

3. Gentile Christians who has adopted Sabbath observance - the judaized.

4. Others that regarded themselves totally free from laws they deemed were strictly Jewish.

And there was major differences regarding the Eucharist (latter).
---lee1538 on 2/24/12


Doesn't Paul say something about the 'Chuch is the pillar and foundation of truth'. Jesus also say he will built his Church on this Rock. Just saying! Jesus never told the Apostles to write everything down and the Apostles never said our faith will be base soley on books.
---Ruben on 2/24/12


DEFINE EARLY CHURCH?
---FRANCIS on 2/24/12


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Church history should be third. First is scripture. Second is theologians and pastors. Church history is a good check just to make sure you are not to far off doctrine that has passed the test of time unless you have scripture to disprove that previous idea and other theologians to back it up. If you continually find false teachers everywhere you probably have some wrong doctrine. Do not confuse doctrine with preferences and second tier issues.
---Scott1 on 2/24/12


100%

That's why I'm Orthodox.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/24/12


A Christian is 100% dependent on the Holy Spirit to give him understanding and wisdom to God's Words.

Even the "early church" were mingled with unbelievers, just like Israel in the OT were mingled with the saved and unsaved. Prompting Paul to declare, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

The Christian is to put his trust in God and not man for the understanding of doctrines, and everything else in his life.
---christan on 2/24/12


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