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Unfermented Grape Juice

The grape harvest and the Passover were separated by at least six months. Can anyone tell just how in first century Judea grape juice was prevented from fermenting WITHOUT refrigeration, preservatives, or pasteurization?

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francis:

Do you remember which tractate from Abodah Zarah? There are 76 of them.

All that I looked at looked like choking on gnats and swallowing camels. Half of tractate 72 deals solely with whether a single drop of wine left in a funnel used to fill a heathen's flask renders subsequent wine poured into an Israelite's flask prohibited.

Tractate 66 is curious because it deals with grapes being tainted by being touched by wine - BOTH old wine, AND new wine. If new wine were just unfermented grape juice, how would that be the case?
---StrongAxe on 3/9/12


\\TALMUD and MISHNA are well known rabbinic directions and details on how to...They speak of methods of preserving grape juice. these books are available to all who truely wish to know\\

I keep on asking you why you are so well-read in the writings of the scribes and Pharisees who rejected Jesus--which is what the Talmud and Mishna are.

You never reply.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/9/12


---StrongAxe on 3/9/12

Understood
talmud treatise Abodah Zarah
---francis on 3/9/12


Darline, I believe many Christians take many things to a great extreme many times. They have reasons, because many who drink become drunkerds, many who smoke are take drugs become addicted. They have seen the consequences. But what Warwick said is true. Because to become legalistic is not good. Everything we eat, take, or drink or even do in life is bad if we do too much. If you eat too much you get fat. If you spend all your time going to the movies, you learn bad things and waste precious time. If you take too many drugs they are bad in some way. Many times its good we don't drink and open a door for bad things to happen. Smoking is a very habitual habit. There are some drugs that are very habitual also. But we all take drugs all the time.
---Mark_V. on 3/9/12


francis:

Saying "It's in the Talmud" is about as much as "needle in a haystack" as saying "It's in the Bible".

If you want to show something is in the Bible, it is customary to give chapter and verse reference. One should similarly quantify references to other works, and not expect someone to read through the whole thing looking for a single sentence.
---StrongAxe on 3/9/12




The grape harvest and the Passover were separated by at least six months. Can anyone tell just how in first century Judea grape juice was prevented from fermenting WITHOUT refrigeration, preservatives, or pasteurization?
---Cluny on 2/26/12

I have answered this question, and given the reference material ( TALMUD and MISHNA).

TALMUD and MISHNA are well known rabbinic directions and details on how to...They speak of methods of preserving grape juice. these books are available to all who truely wish to know


I think my job here is done
Thanks for the polite postings
---francis on 3/8/12


>how do you handle Hosea 4:11 or Acts 2:13?

Note that in both even "new wine" (which shouldn't exist if the alcohol advocates are correct) can cause problems. Even "new wine" has a small amount of alcohol in it because fermentation starts as soon as the grape is plucked.
---David_J._Conklin on 3/8/12


David J, how do you handle Hosea 4:11 or Acts 2:13?

Psalm 104:14,15 tells us wine is a blessing as it cheers man suffering under the curse. Isaiah 65:8 tells us God will not destroy all his servants because there is some good in them. He explains this via grapes which still contain some juice from which wine can be made. "Don't destroy it there is still some good in it."

As regards excess see Proverbs 23: 20
"Do not join those who drink too much wine, or gorge themselves on meat. For drunkards and gluttons become poor."

And:

Proverbs.24,13 Eat honey my son for it is good.
Proverbs. 25: 27 It is not good to eat too much honey,

Is eating honey forbidden?
---Warwick on 3/8/12


New wine is unfermented grape juice.
---David_J._Conklin on 3/8/12


You would have us believe new wine wasn't alcoholic however ---Warwick on 3/7/12
Isaiah 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and [one] saith, Destroy it not, for a blessing [is] in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all
---francis on 3/8/12




>What it condemns is excess.

When the Bible says "wine is a mocker and strong drink is raging" it says nothing about the quantity. Even the smallest amount of alcohol kills brains cells.
---David_J._Conklin on 3/8/12


Francis, wine is wine (containing alcohol) and grape juice is grape juice. Two different words. Holman Bible Dictionary p.1674 "Wine Beverage made from fermented grapes." You would have us believe new wine wasn't alcoholic however Hosea 4:11 and Acts 2:13 show otherwise.

Scripture no more condemns wine than food. What it condemns is excess. See Proverbs 23:20.

See also:

Prov.24:13 Eat honey my son for it is good.
Prov. 25:27 It is not good to eat too much honey,

So Francis is honey good or not?

BTW you ducked my question regarding Ephesians 5:18 Are you "filled with the Spirit"?
---Warwick on 3/7/12


>They must bow to her no matter is all the facts are against what they want to believe.

That will be lie #177.
---David_J._Conklin on 3/7/12


Francis it isn't nice to call a person a liar no matter how you try to word it thats what you did. ---Darlene_1 on 3/7/12

I am not calling him/ her a liar. I am saying that it is a fallacy that ethenol makes wine good.

It is not the person, it is the belief that is false
---francis on 3/7/12


it is ethanol which makes wine wine.
BTW are you "Filled with the Spirit"?
---Warwick on 3/7/12
except in the bible the wine " Wine" can mean grape juice, or ethenol induced grace juice
---francis on 3/7/12


Darlene_1// I am curious,why do some people seem so offended at the thought of Christ creating a fermented wine?
---
Simply because, and I think Francis will agree, that their leading prophetess, much like the Roman pontiff, is the one that is the "annointed" interpretator of the Bible.

They must bow to her no matter is all the facts are against what they want to believe.
---lee1538 on 3/7/12


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Francis it isn't nice to call a person a liar no matter how you try to word it thats what you did. If the fermentation had no effect on making wine the best they would not consider the aged wine better,which they do. Also don't they use yeast or some such biological element to cause the fermentation which also would produce a different taste. I am curious,why do some people seem so offended at the thought of Christ creating a fermented wine?
---Darlene_1 on 3/7/12


But Francis it is ethanol which makes wine wine. "And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit" Ephesians 5:18. Musta had some ethanol there Francis.

BTW are you "Filled with the Spirit"?
---Warwick on 3/7/12


They made a point to say Christs created wine was the best,they would not have said that if it wasn't fermented. ---Darlene_1 on 3/6/12

This is a falacy. Ethenol is not what makes wine good
---francis on 3/7/12


There is fermented sweet wine. I am quite sure the people of that age knew the wine was real wine and not grape juice. There is also the fact that usually they saved the worst wine until the last since people were drunk,on fermented wine,and wouldn't know the difference. They made a point to say Christs created wine was the best,they would not have said that if it wasn't fermented. Why can't Christians just relax and say God however you wanted that wine Christ created to be I am sure you were in charge and created it that way for a good reason. God did it and he would never create anything bad and its none of our business to try to change it. Trust God,man plans his steps but God directs those steps and his way.
---Darlene_1 on 3/6/12


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"The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!"

Those drunken grape juice drinkers are a worry!
---Warwick on 3/6/12


StrongAxe on 3/5/12

I do understand what you are saying. You are saying that if it were not possible to get drunk on new wine, they never would have mentioned it

Strong's Greek Definition for # 1098
1098 // gleukov // gleukos // glyoo'-kos //
AV - new wine 1, 1

1) the sweet juice pressed the grape, sweet wine

so it is not possible to get drunk on new wine in this context
---francis on 3/6/12


francis:

I did not say "slander is truth". I said "slander is BASED ON truth". It has to be MOSTLY true for anyone to consider it seriously.

Consider thet truth "John did not commit adultery with Susan". Then consider the slander "John did commit adultery with Susan". Every word in this is true - EXCEPT for the omission of the vital word "not". If someone said instead "John played chess with a bicycle" (which has much less truth in it), this would be nonsense, and nobody would give it a second thought.
---StrongAxe on 3/5/12


\\really, then why call it slander?
Why not call it truth\\

Because it is NOT truth.

Did you not read all of what StrongAxe said, francis?

Whatever truth there is gets vitiated (diluted) by lies.

THAT'S why it become slander.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/5/12


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Jesus turned water into wine. It was served after other wine. The master of the feast said it should have been served first, then serve the not so good stuff > John 2:7-10. After drinking "good wine" for a while, they might be under the influence enough so they would not notice "the switch" (c:

If the first wine was nonalcoholic, they would notice being given "the inferior", later < why would a groom use anything inferior, especially later . . . as a last impression of the celebration . . . if they could tell the diff???

But I enjoy grape juice. And if I really enjoy a wine, a taste is enough. The loving does more for me.
---Bill_willa6989 on 3/5/12


All slander is based on facts. ---StrongAxe on 3/5/12

really, then why call it slander?
Why not call it truth.

Truth is a complete defense to a claim of defamation
---francis on 3/5/12


StrongAxe on 3/5/12
I understand perfectly what you are saying. You are saying that if it were not possible to get drunk on " new wine' Then the mockery would not have been made.

But if you check your strongs for the defination of new wine in that passage youwill see why it was mockery.
---francis on 3/5/12


francis:

All slander is based on facts. Nobody would believe a lie if it were 100% false. The only believable lies are ones that mix error with truth. Nobody would drink a glass of poison - this is why poison is mixed with some other pleasing drink to disguise it.

The serpent's lie in Eden was NOT a total fabrication. It was, in fact, almost exactly the same thing God had said - with the single addition of the word "not".

Nobody slanders another by saying "He drinks gasoline" or "he sleeps in acid" because these are obviously ridiculous lies.

But "he drinks wine" or "he sleeps in his neighbor's wife's bed" are sufficiently plausible to be believable, hence damaging.
---StrongAxe on 3/5/12


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They would hever had even mentioned "new wine" if it wasn't possible to get drunk with new wine in the first place. If that were true, such mockery would be totally empty.
---StrongAxe on 3/4/12

Exactly!!
mockers do not necessarily base their slander on facts.

If you do not believe me, look at what many write about SDA on these blogs. Lots of slander not based on facts

P S check Strong's Greek Definition "wine: in that passage
---francis on 3/4/12


//That is exactly my point. They saw the apostles behaving in an unusual manner, and assumed they were drunk....From this incorrect assumption, they said they were drunk with new wine.// Strongaxe

scripture furthers the point...

Eph 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit,

"alcoholic' wine existed then.
---aka on 3/4/12


francis:

That is exactly my point. They saw the apostles behaving in an unusual manner, and assumed they were drunk.

From this incorrect assumption, they said they were drunk with new wine.

They would hever had even mentioned "new wine" if it wasn't possible to get drunk with new wine in the first place. If that were true, such mockery would be totally empty.

Saying "You're as drunk as Charlie Sheen" is an insult. Saying "You're as drunk as Mother Theresa" is not, it's just stupid.
---StrongAxe on 3/4/12


Biblical wine is fermented, not unfermented. The fermentation process contributed to the medicinal properties and to the preservation of the wine.
---Eloy on 3/3/12


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---Cluny on 3/3/12
1: please read the research and Talmud and mishna- documents on boiled grape juice and how it remained unfermented

2: Many phrasisees beleived on Jesus, such as Paul and Nicodemus

3: Cold storage was done by placing a specially prepared grape juice (semper mustum) into special made containers. As soon as the must is taken from the vat and put into casks they plunge the casks in water till midwinter passes and regular cold weather sets in. Columella, In his treatise On Agriculture and Trees

Now I have given two historically document means that Jews used to preserve grape juice

several more methods are mentioned in the historic document
---francis on 3/3/12


These people were mocking the Apostles after they received the gift of tongues, saying they must be drunk.

This means it was common knowledge that it was possible to be drunk even from NEW wine!
---StrongAxe on 3/2/12
This is a gratuitous assumption, because mockers do not necessarily base their slander on factual observation. SEE ANY OF THE ANTI SDA POSTS

Even if they did, what they presumably had seen was Christians under the influence of the Holy Spirit rather than of alcoholic spirits.
---francis on 3/3/12


francis, if a juice is boiled and turns into a syrup, it can still ferment.

Why do you hearken to the very scribes and pharisees who rejected the Savior?

But I'm asking you how and where cold storage was available in 1st cen. Judea.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/3/12


>However, hardshelled Adventists will contine to reject common sense truth in their condemnation of Christians that are more knowledge of the Bible and its Author.

It is always right a proper to reject false caricatures--like the above.
---David_J._Conklin on 3/2/12


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The grape harvest and the Passover were separated by at least six months. Can anyone tell just how in first century Judea grape juice was prevented from fermenting WITHOUT refrigeration, preservatives, or pasteurization?
---Cluny on 2/26/12

I have answered this question, and given the reference material ( TALMUD and MISHNA).

TALMUD and MISHNA are well known rabbinic directions and details on how to...

Now, If I have read it, anyone can, and know for themselves that the ancient Jews did preserve grape juice and that not all crape juice fermented. TALMUD and MISHNA proves that grape juice was indeed preserved from fermentation.

NOW LET THE ANTI SDA COMMENTS FLOW
---francis on 3/2/12


Did they not also speak about UNBOILED wine, and not always about boiled wine?
---StrongAxe on 3/1/12
The conversation was about means to preserve grape juice. Boiled grape juice was only one of the considerations.
They do speak about means of preseerving without boiling.
---francis on 3/2/12


What happens when you boil juice?

Syrup...
---micha9334 on 3/2/12


//What difference do you want it to make, francis?

Perhaps since Jesus drink wine at various places where it was served, He is also guilty of sin.

However, hardshelled Adventists will contine to reject common sense truth in their condemnation of Christians that are more knowledge of the Bible and its Author.
---lee1538 on 3/2/12


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I'm not sure that "most" people in Biblical times would have cared to know how to keep grape juice from fermenting (c: So, why would a method appear in secular writings, if seculars would not be interested in it?

I'm told that a desert area can have low temperatures, at night. You could dig a deep hole, cool it at night along with the juice, then insulate them during the daytime. Then open up the hole for recooling, at night, then close for the day, then at night bring out the juice and cool the hole, then close them down during the heat, then at night . . . recool them and then . . .
---Bill_willa6989 on 3/2/12


Something I just noticed:

Acts 2:13
"Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine."

These people were mocking the Apostles after they received the gift of tongues, saying they must be drunk.

This means it was common knowledge that it was possible to be drunk even from NEW wine!
---StrongAxe on 3/2/12


**But first, if you found such a process existed to preserve grape juice, will it make any difference to you at all?**

What difference do you want it to make, francis?

As any information I get, I first have to determine how accurate and useful it is before I decide how it will affect me.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/2/12


**

I can tell you exactly where to find it.
But first, if you found such a process existed to preserve grape juice, will it make any difference to you at all?**

francis, if you can tell me--and all interested parties--where to find documentation on keeping ANYTHING in cold storage (40 or so) that was readily available to all in 1st century Palestine, I would be much obliged.

BTW--how do you know so much about the Talmud--the written form of the teachings of the very scribes and Pharisees who rejected Jesus?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/1/12


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francis:

Did they not also speak about UNBOILED wine, and not always about boiled wine?
---StrongAxe on 3/1/12


Whether or not anyone had access to such a process is less important than whether the process was in common use. For your argument to be convincing, you would have to prove both.
---StrongAxe on 3/1/12
documents on boiled wine can be found in both the talmud and mishna.
These are discusions and regulations set by the rabbi, so it was well known, and widley used, especially when it came to wine n the sanctuary.

They spoke about open and closed boiled grape juice, and even grape juice presenved by gentiles

And this is not a secret.
---francis on 3/1/12


Proverbs 3:10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

The argument that wine drank by Christ and others was merely grape juice is an argument not from scripture but from those who are really dumber than dumb.

This unfortunately all too often reflects the teachings of cults especially the one Ellen White founded.
---lee1538 on 3/1/12


For those who are interested
documents on boiled wine can be found in both the talmud and mishna
---francis on 3/1/12


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francis:

Whether or not anyone had access to such a process is less important than whether the process was in common use. For your argument to be convincing, you would have to prove both.
---StrongAxe on 3/1/12


NOW, since to pasteurize requires boiling a 212 f, not 150, as you claim, do you have evidence that this was done?

And where is your evidence that "cold storage below 40" was available to all and sundry in 1st century Palestine.

francis, all you are doing is projecting your un-Biblical prejudice against wine onto Jesus.
---Cluny on 2/29/12

I can tell you exactly where to find it.
But first, if you found such a process existed to preserve grape juice, will it make any difference to you at all?
---francis on 2/29/12


francis:

"Pasteurization" is named after Louis Pasteur. Why? Because he was the one who invented the process. Surely if it was common knowledge in ancient times, this would not be the case.

Also, you have shown that pasteurization requires refrigeration. With the exception of some rare communities who may have had access to ice from nearby mountains, how frequent do you think refrigeration was among the common population in the mediterranean 2000 years ago?

It doesn't even matter if a few people had it. The fact that MOST didn't, means MOST wine in that period was alcoholic.
---StrongAxe on 2/29/12


**1: boiling at 150 DEG F
2: cold storage below 40 DEG F
---francis on 2/27/12 **

Thank you for clarifying this.

NOW, since to pasteurize requires boiling a 212 f, not 150, as you claim, do you have evidence that this was done?

And where is your evidence that "cold storage below 40" was available to all and sundry in 1st century Palestine.

francis, all you are doing is projecting your un-Biblical prejudice against wine onto Jesus.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/29/12


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francis, this slowing process you theorize and have yet to come right out and say even though it is 'well documented' had to be very common to all, poor and rich, town and country.
---micha9344 on 2/29/12
Why is relevant whether or not it is available to all rich and poor?

Can you read about pasteurization in ancient Babylonian tablets? Or parhaps refrigeration in the histories of Josephus?
---StrongAxe on 2/29/12

I am not sure about Josephus.

But these process are in the historical documents
---francis on 2/29/12


Cluny//Notice that once more francis does not answer a direct question, but deflects.

He is like most SDAs in that pride often gets in the way. What he needs is for you to provide a way out of this argument so he can save face.

Proverbs 3:9-10 Honor the LORD with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce, THEN your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine.
---lee1538 on 2/29/12


Notice that once more francis does not answer a direct question, but deflects.
---Cluny on 2/29/12

1: boiling at 150 DEG F
2: cold storage below 40 DEG F
---francis on 2/27/12

See, I have already answered the question.
Now, because the historical documents give at least ONE method used by ancient israel to preserve grape juice, and delay fermentation, I need not mention any other methods. It must be settled that there was at least one method used, and that grape juice could last for months without fermenting
---francis on 2/29/12


francis, this slowing process you theorize and have yet to come right out and say even though it is 'well documented' had to be very common to all, poor and rich, town and country.
I understand it is hard to give up what you've been taught to believe, no matter how foolish or false it is, but you must see the truth for yourself and none of us can do that for you.
You quote verses that support your false doctrine and throw away the rest of the Bible, blinding yourself in the procees with misinterpretations and far reaching presumptions.
Let God show you the Light.
---micha9344 on 2/29/12


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francis:

I did not ask you to show methods in the Bible. I ashed you to show methods. Can you read about pasteurization in ancient Babylonian tablets? Or parhaps refrigeration in the histories of Josephus?

There may not have been details about just how blacksmiths made iron, but such methods have been passed down throughout the centuries, and are available in historical records of many cultures.

Notably absent from similar historical records, however, are technologies for keeping juices from fermenting into wine. If such technologies DID exist 2000 years ago, you would think they would also be passed down. But they weren't - they were only discovered in recent centuries, and use sophisticated techniques unavailable before.
---StrongAxe on 2/29/12


\\This methods are mentioned in historical documents but not in the bible.

Take for example the feast of lights.\\

Notice that once more francis does not answer a direct question, but deflects.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/29/12


If any of these (besides 3) had been in common use thousands of years ago, surely there would have been some mention of it.
---StrongAxe on 2/28/12

This methods are mentioned in historical documents but not in the bible.

Take for example the feast of lights. The events which led to the feasts of lights are not mentioned in the bible, but Jesus did take part in the feast while walking on solomon's porch

my point is that not everything is mentioned in the bible. We do not have any mention of how the blacksmiths made their iron and bronze work, but israel had swords and shields
---francis on 2/29/12


Cluny, I posted a blog Question concerning "transubtantiation" so that we leave this blog free of other issues. The blog is about grape juice or wine which you posted. Sorry my answer step over yours, because I was blown away how James L came out with what he did. He saw something I never would have seen.
---Mark_V. on 2/29/12


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Mark V,
thanks for the response and kind words.

But really, I saw that I had the first chance to reply so I thought I would write something funny
---James_L on 2/28/12


\\Cluny, and he does believe in Transubstantiation. I really don't understand how they could believe that. \\

Mark V, do you know what "transubsantiation" acdually means?

I really doubt it, but if you do, tell us here.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/28/12


francis:

I am aware of five methods that could keep juice from spoiling:

1) refrigeration
2) pasteurization
3) chemical preservatives
4) dessication (i.e. freeze-drying to powder, then adding water when needed, as with Kool-Aid)
5) magic

If any of these (besides 3) had been in common use thousands of years ago, surely there would have been some mention of it.

The very reason warm countries typically have hot spicy foods is because they need a way to preserve food (especially meat) from spoilage, and hot spices are a chemical way to do so (as smoke is, in northern climates). Alcohol serves this same purpose in wine.
---StrongAxe on 2/28/12


\\One documented method is all that is needed to put to rest the idea that all grape juice eventually and possible quickly fermented. DO we aree on that?\\

I won't agree until you can provide the method.

And I'm beginning to doubt you can come up with ANY method at this point.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/28/12


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Very nice, francis. Now, can you tell us what these three ways were?

Or are you merely going to say that here were three other methods without identifying them.
---Cluny on 2/28/12

Not nessessary to list every single method used by anceints to delay fermentation.

One documented method is all that is needed to put to rest the idea that all grape juice eventually and possible quickly fermented. DO we aree on that?
---francis on 2/28/12


\\there are at least three other methods used in the ancient days besides boiling and cold storage...
The answer has been very well researched and documented\\

Very nice, francis. Now, can you tell us what these three ways were?

Or are you merely going to say that here were three other methods without identifying them.

**Cluny, thanks for your suffix, or is it suffixion.
---Eloy on 2/27/12**

Eloy, please do not reply to my posts unless youm are willing to accept the truth. Otherwise, youm just bring sin onto yourmself.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/28/12


there are at least three other methods used in the ancient days besides boiling and cold storage

The question is WHAT did they use to get the storage below 40 DEG F?

The answer has been very well researched and documented

These people were very resourceful
---francis on 2/27/12


James L, I don't know how you came out with that answer but I believe you are correct, for the question comes from Cluny, and he does believe in Transubstantiation. I really don't understand how they could believe that.
Another miracle as with Christ turning to a piece of bread. That is a good one for another blog. No use getting into that one now.
---Mark_V. on 2/28/12


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I often wonder how did they build the pyramids.
How did they discover the Parthian Battery.

So I ask myself, what can you possible add to grape juice to slow down the fermentation process?

Well OK so lets start by saying what we already know,
1: boiling at 150 DEG F
2: cold storage below 40 DEG F

There are other methods, but these are historially the easiest and most popular
---francis on 2/27/12


francis:

Remember that Egypt is mostly desert, so things that are dry (like grain, raisins, etc.) can last a long time without spoiling, while things that contain water (like wine) cannot.
---StrongAxe on 2/27/12


I often wonders how Joseph stored grain for 7+ years with no ways to preserve it.

We are just spectulating that there was no way to preserve juice from going bad quickly.

That is the thing we do not know exactly how they did it.
We speculate that they were not able to But joseph was able to store grain for 7+ years in egypt. Do we know how he preserved it from fermenting and rotting?

I think we should consider some spices that an improve task and have antibiotic properties

Packing bananas with lime( lemon lime) will preeventthem from rippening and prevent them from being atacked by fungi
---francis on 2/27/12


Cluny, thanks for your suffix, or is it suffixion.
---Eloy on 2/27/12


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\\Wine in the Bible is fermented, which is "yayn" in Hebrew, and "oinon" in Greek\\

Actually, Eloy, the nominative case is OINOS.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/27/12


Wine in the Bible is fermented, which is "yayn" in Hebrew, and "oinon" in Greek. But juice is nonfermented, which is "mys" in Hebrew, and "chumos" in Greek. In the Mediterranean the red grapes are harvested in the fall in October, and the Passover is commemorated in the spring in April. So the Passover communion cup is the preserved wine from the previous year. The wine is fermented which preserves it integrity. Fermentation is the biochemical conversion of sugars into alcohol and preserving acids. Fermented wine is to acidic for unhealthy bacteria to grow in it and cause rotting or spoilage.
---Eloy on 2/26/12


The anti-wine people really have no convincing arguments in their view that wine that was drank in ancient times was unfermented. They are really a throw-back to the old days of prohibition.

Psalms 104:15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth mans heart.

Eat your heart out Francis, like your arguments for the Jewish Sabbath, the truth is again against you.
---lee1538 on 2/26/12


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