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Is Transubstantiation Biblical

Is transubstantiation true? Some here believe it is. Is it possible for Jesus to somehow turn Himself into a piece of bread? What say you?

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 ---Mark_V. on 2/29/12
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\\You want to compare Jesus as if He were sinful man.\\

I don't know where you got that idea.

But as Solomon the Wise said, "Answer not a fool according to his folly."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/13/12


Cluny, you want to divide the Word of God from Christ. Just nonsense. The Word God spoken of, was Christ. The whole of Scripture is the gospel of Christ. He is the One who testifies of God.
You want to compare Jesus as if He were sinful man. Sinful man are not equal to Christ. They are sinful and He is Holy. Man's words are not infallible, Jesus Words are. Jesus never gave authority apart from the Word. Your religious believes want to be equal to God's but they never will.
---Mark_V. on 3/13/12


\\He is the Word of God. The Truth." And the Word became flesh"\\

You don't think this means that Jesus is the perfect embodiment of everything written in the Bible, do you?

\\In His humanity, He appealed to the written word of God. How can you not understand such matters?\\

What Jesus does in His humanity, He does in His divinity, and vice versa.

And I gave examples of where He set the written word aside. How can you not understand such matters?

**I answer as if you are one of them since you defend their doctrines **

Give me a single RC doctrine that I have defended. I have tried to clarify misstatements and misunderstandings of it, which is not the same.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/13/12


Ruben, sorry, that post was meant for Cluny who doesn't know that Jesus is the Word. And every time He spoke it was God talking. Who does he say Christ is?

Cluny, I know what you claim, you are not RC. I've known that for years now, but since you answer for them, I answer as if you are one of them since you defend their doctrines for most of them are the same as yours.
---Mark_V. on 3/13/12


Ruben, what planet on your on? Stop to think, before you argue someone is wrong.

What I said was that Jesus? " didn't appeal to any authority apart from the Word of God"
And what do you say? "Wrong, Mark_V. He would state things on His own authority and set "the Word" aside."

Ruben, who do you think Jesus Christ is?" Who do you say that He is?" He is the Word of God. The Truth." And the Word became flesh"
In His humanity, He appealed to the written word of God. How can you not understand such matters?
---Mark_V. on 3/12/12




\\Jesus didn't appeal to any authority apart from the Word.\\

Wrong, Mark_V. He would state things on His own authority and set "the Word" aside.

Several times in the Gospels, Jesus would quote the OT, and then utter, "...but **I** say unto you....."

Example: "You have heard it said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' [words from the OT], but I say unto you, love your enemies...."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/12/12


\\Cluny, there's not enough space to write the traditions of the RCC. \\

But I'm not Roman Catholic. I'm ORTHODOX.

Has that simple fact not sunk in yet?

What you're saying is that you can give NO specific examples (all were not asked for) of how Orthodox tradition contravenes the Bible. (Even though the Bible simply reflects Orthodox tradition o start with.)

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/12/12


Cluny, there's not enough space to write the traditions of the RCC. But whenever someone ask Jesus "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" He never said to go to the RCC traditions, Jesus supplied an authoritive answer, "What is written in the law?...How do you read it? (Luke 10:25-26). He pointed them to the Word of God.
The Pharisees and Sadducees, who taught that there is no resurrection, Jesus was ask to give a definitive answer. Jesus told the Sadducees, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God" (Matt. 22:29). His Point: If you knew what the Scripture say, you would not be asking such a question. Jesus didn't appeal to any authority apart from the Word.
---Mark_V. on 3/12/12


\\ You well know that the authority of the Church comes before the authority of Scripture. \\

Please give specific examples, Mark_V, or else withdraw your comments.

Back up your words, or else back up.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/11/12


\\all man made rituals are pagan in other words the heathen traditions by those GOD identifies as following their own customs and traditions \\

Do man-made rituals and pagan traditions include revivals, altar calls, invitation hymns, and taking up collections in worship, Rhonda?

None of these are mentioned in the Bible.
---Cluny on 3/11/12




Cluny, Rhonda is correct about your traditions. You well know that the authority of the Church comes before the authority of Scripture. By tradition you mean the teachings of your denomination. In the case of the RCC their traditions. These teachings do not have their roots in Scritpure but have evolved over many centuries and have finally been defined as dogma by the Church. Part of (100)
"Therefore both sacred tradition and sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same sense of devotion and reverance"
They suggest, that their traditions are also sacred, even though they come from sinners.
---Mark_V. on 3/11/12


What makes you think the rituals are man-made?
****

very easy to determine

all man made rituals are pagan in other words the heathen traditions by those GOD identifies as following their own customs and traditions THOSE who do not believe in GOD and do not follow HIS examples choosing their own way

rcc chose their OWN way apart from GOD by adopting pagan traditions

heck even Christ HIMSELF WARNED to not participate in the traditions of men!!

the pagan origin of transubstantiation is an abomination to the LORD as EVIDENCE by Christ and Apostles who did not participate in, allude to, or play with the pagan transubstantion aside from the fact this man made ritual is found nowhere in Holy Scripture
---Rhonda on 3/10/12


\\And then one would have to bow down to an elitist church hierarchy.\\

Please tell me everything you know (not what you THINK you know) about the elitist Orthodox church hierarchy.

I bet it would almost fill a pinhead.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/10/12


\\If one joined the Orthodox church or one of its offshots, then one would have to believe man-made rituals are a means of grace,\\

What makes you think the rituals are man-made?

||Power in the church should flow from the rank and file upward to the leadership instead of having the leadership being appointed by those who may not be good Christians.||

Only because there is grace in the priestly People of God that the ordained ministry makes any sense.

Of course, everyone in YOUR church is a sinless, perfect example of Christianity, right?

Glory to Jesus Christ!

What makes you think that YOUR rituals, such as invitation hymns and altar calls are of divine origin?
---Cluny on 3/9/12


//You referred to the Council of Chalcedon, Mark_V. Why didn't you join the Chalcedonian Orthodox Church?

If one joined the Orthodox church or one of its offshots, then one would have to believe man-made rituals are a means of grace, that eating bread and drinking wine leads to salvation.

And then one would have to bow down to an elitist church hierarchy.

Power in the church should flow from the rank and file upward to the leadership instead of having the leadership being appointed by those who may not be good Christians.
---lee1538 on 3/9/12


\\What I do know is that if it wasn't for the Holy Spirit working through them, we would still be slaves to the RCC.\\

If it were REALLY the Holy Spirit working through them, they would have become Orthodox.

You referred to the Council of Chalcedon, Mark_V. Why didn't you join the Chalcedonian Orthodox Church?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/9/12


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Ruben, I really have no clue on the details of all the reformers. Until I read their life stories I cannot comment. What I do know is that if it wasn't for the Holy Spirit working through them, we would still be slaves to the RCC. But God used many wonderful man from within the RCC to bring the gospel of Christ out for the salvation of so many. They were "Called out" by God. Up until three weeks ago, I had nothing on Calvin. I never read one of his books or his life. I'm not interested on their lifes but on what Scripture has to say. I do know that Luther believed in Justification by faith in Christ alone. No works for salvation. The RCC has kept many blind to the Truth, not only of the Word of God, including their atrocities.
---Mark_V. on 3/9/12


Is transubstantiation true?

No but it is symbolic. Levi 17:14 Do not drink the blood of animals for the life of the animal is in the blood. Jesus says this wine is my blood. Thus we are to drink the blood of Jesus thus have the life of Jesus. God calls himself a hen who gathers her eggs, but I don't think God wants us to consider him to be a chicken but a caring loving God.
---Scott1 on 3/9/12


MarkV: I know you did not say that confession was a Sacrament. I added that, because the Sacraments are works required of ALL Catholics.

I was taught that it was necessary to pray the Act of Contrition between confessions with the priest, and at bedtime, in case I died during my sleep so that I don't die with unconfessed sin and end up in Purgatory, or Hell.
---Trish on 3/8/12


A remnant of true believers dared to come out to preserve and keep "the faith which was once delievered unto the saints" (Jude 3). This are not the ones the RCC proclaimed saints.
---Mark_V. on 3/8/12

Luther, Calvin believe Mary had no other children. Zwingli even believe in Mary sinfulness and both Luther and Calvin to extent believe in the Real Presence. Which BTW you disagree on all!:)
---Ruben on 3/8/12


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Trish, I did not say it was a sacrement. I did not have time to add "penance." But you are right, they have to do works of "penance" to be forgiven. More works for salvation. Works never end. Those who did great things are called saints for their works. Not for been born of God. There was many great man who "came out" of the Catholic Church, they did come out. The Reformation of the sixteeth century was, next to the Apostolic Age, the most vital part of the history of the Church. A remnant of true believers dared to come out to preserve and keep "the faith which was once delievered unto the saints" (Jude 3). This are not the ones the RCC proclaimed saints.
---Mark_V. on 3/8/12


\\And as 1st Vatican council declared he is infallible, as Christ is.\\

Another canard.

Vatican I actually strictly limited the conditions of papal infallibility, much to Pio Nono's regret.

In any case, "infallible" never mean "impeccable."

I really wonder if you were ever raised a Roman Catholic--or understood what you were taught, Mark V, because you keep on misrepresenting RC teaching in the way that Protestant polemicists usually do.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/8/12


Did Jesus and also Peter walk on water or it was also symbolic? Was Lazarus really dead?
Did Christ come back from the dead? Do God and Jesus abide in a committed christian?
How about Mary's conception?

What makes ppl accept some as literary stated and other not?

1 Corinthians 11:29_30 "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep."

That does not sound as just a plain piece of bread, does it to you?
---Nana on 3/8/12


Ruben, you read one catechism that really contradicts the first Vatican Council. "The theological and dogmatic concept of papal primacy is the apostolic authority of the Bishop of Rome as the Successor of the Prince of the Apostles (haereditas Petri) and Vicar of Christ."
The Pope is the Vicar of Christ, who has taken the place of Christ as the Head of His Church. And as 1st Vatican council declared he is infallible, as Christ is. He has replaced Christ as the Head of the Church. Christ is the Head of the Church, His Church which is His body, and He can never be replace by man who is himself sinful. The body of Christ is not sinful.
---Mark_V. on 3/8/12


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MarkV: Confession to a priest is not a Sacrament, and does not bring about forgiveness. At least it didn't my first 17 years on this Earth. It was doing Penance after the confession that is the Sacrament, and that is what brought about the forgiveness.

If I remember correctly, the Sacraments are Baptism, Penance, Communion, Confirmation, Marriage or Vocation, and Last Rites. If I missed any, or wrote something as a Sacrament that is not really one, I apologize.
---Trish on 3/7/12


\\3. If they pay indulgences their sins can be remitted and be saved.\\

This is a canard.

The abuse of the sale of indulgences was corrected by the Council of Trent. Have you not heard? Why are you dragging this up, Mark V?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/7/12


Ruben,
Here is the travesty, that Christ is not the Head of the Church.
---Mark_V. on 3/7/12

754 "The Church is, accordingly, a sheepfold, the sole and necessary gateway to which is Christ. It is also the flock of which God himself foretold that he would be the shepherd, and whose sheep, even though governed by human shepherds, are unfailingly nourished and led by Christ himself, the Good Shepherd and Prince of Shepherds, who gave his life for his sheep.146
---Ruben on 3/7/12


Ruben, you should pull out the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and you will see what they say makes a Catholic born of God.
Here is the travesty, that Christ is not the Head of the Church. That's why I believe that the RCC as we know it will ever be reformed along biblical lines. Jesus said you cannot put new wine into old wineskins because old wineskins are brittle, and when new wine is poured into them, the wine ferments and old wineskins cannot contain the new wine (Matt. 9:17) The gospel that frees us from our sins cannot be contained within a legalistic religious system. The gospel they preach is not the gospel that frees us. Jesus builds His church when He saves sinners.
---Mark_V. on 3/7/12


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The Spirit cannot work His power on anyone until man permit Him.
1. If the priest consecrates the water, people getting baptized are born again saved/
2. If the priest conscrates the bread and wine, the person can eat Christ, and they are born of God because while eating Christ, now He is with them.
3. If they pay indulgences their sins can be remitted and be saved.
4. If a person confesses to a priest, he can be forgiven and saved.
5. If someone goes to purgatory, someone can pay for him and he is saved.
---Mark_V. on 3/6/12


Mark,

1,2,4 are scriptual, please read :
1. Jhn 3:5-3:22
2. Acts 4: 21
4. Jhn 3: 20-23

3 and 5 clearly shows, you do not know what the Catholic Church teaches!
---Ruben on 3/6/12


Ruben, no matter the subject you talk about, it's always towards man's works for salvation. The Catholic has to help in the salvation of the himself. In that reference a person saves himself and then gets grace. The Spirit cannot work His power on anyone until man permit Him.
1. If the priest consecrates the water, people getting baptized are born again saved/
2. If the priest conscrates the bread and wine, the person can eat Christ, and they are born of God because while eating Christ, now He is with them.
3. If they pay indulgences their sins can be remitted and be saved.
4. If a person confesses to a priest, he can be forgiven and saved.
5. If someone goes to purgatory, someone can pay for him and he is saved.
---Mark_V. on 3/6/12


Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner [stone], a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone],
Mat 16:16 Peter-Petros-stone, Rock-Petra-Christ
Rom 9:33 a "petra" of offence-meaning Christ
1Cor 10:4 That "Petra" was Christ.
1Pe 2:6-8 the chief corner "petra", the "petra" of offense-meaning Christ.
-The wise man did not build his house on "petros", he built it on the true rock, "petra".
-The foolish man built his house on many little pebbles.
---micha9344 on 3/5/12


Eloy, that was beautiful.

Ruben, Christ was speaking of himself not Peter. Peter meams "pebble". Christ is the Rock.
---trey on 3/2/12

Really:

2786. Kephas kay-fas' of Chaldee origin (compare 3710), the Rock, Cephas (i.e. Kepha), a surname of Peter:--Cephas.

Try again!
---Ruben on 3/5/12


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\\transubstantiation was taken from the ancient mirthas by rcc so this false system was not original in its ideas \\

Most interesting, Rhonda.

Can you give the appropriate citation from an existing Mithraic document to support your claim?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/4/12


Trey, God truly is awesome in his ways. Another thing that the Lord accomplished in coming to earth and horrendously suffering, is now the enemy has no more complaint against God: for Satan used to rebell against God saying, "You do not know what is is like suffering down hear on this earth, for you sit up there on your Most High Throne untouched by the pains and the miseries and the suffering of man." But now since the Lord himself has come down and put on the flesh of man, satan has no more excuse against his Maker like this.
---Eloy on 3/3/12


\\The fathers use many methods and traditions the pagan and heathen used with their gods, \\

Please give a concrete and specific example of this, MarkV, including the name of the father who did so.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/3/12


//Jesus said "He will built his Church on the Rock of Peter"- Which Church is that, I wonder?:)

It is simply that body of believers in whom dwelts His Spirit.

Romans 9:8 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Let's face it, if the Roman church was the bride of Christ, she would really be an ugly looking wench in view of the gross corruption she has been guilty of for the past 20 centuries.
---lee1538 on 3/2/12


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Ruben the early church fathers of the Catholic Church were wrong in many things. Don't you understand that most of the traditions that were introduce to the Church came in order to convert the pagan and heathens? The only things you read of the fathers is what the RCC teaches. You need to read history from other sources. The fathers use many methods and traditions the pagan and heathen used with their gods, and change things to make the converts more comfortable when joing the Church.
---Mark_V. on 3/2/12


Mark,

These men were discples of the Apostles, tell me what did they get wrong?
---Ruben on 3/2/12


Of course the Holy Spirit can turn something into the flesh of Jesus.

But we have > "My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you," (Galatians 4:19) > so the Holy Spirit in us is able to change us so we have the inner Person of Jesus as our new personality of love. The real presence of Jesus, then, is growing in us, and He shares with us how He relates with our Father and loves any and all people (c: Bread does not do this!!!

And we have > "For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones." (Ephesians 5:30) But if we eat bread, it will become digested and then become part of our flesh that is already the body of Christ.
---Bill_willa6989 on 3/2/12


transubstantiation was taken from the ancient mirthas by rcc so this false system was not original in its ideas

all rcc did was take the practice used by the mirthas make up a new name for it aka trans-whatever and pollute the Word of God with this filth

nothing in Holy Scripture implies this garbage

Christ did not speak of this

Apostles did not speak of this or practice this

when one participates in this evil practice they bow down to Satan
---Rhonda on 3/2/12


"Jesus said "He will built his Church on the Rock of Peter"- Which Church is that, I wonder?:)"

Where does the Bible say this? I know RCC scholars claim one passage does. But that is not what the bible says.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God,
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone],

Let us follow JESUS.
---Samuel on 3/2/12


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Eloy, that was beautiful.

Ruben, Christ was speaking of himself not Peter. Peter meams "pebble". Christ is the Rock.
---trey on 3/2/12


The Almighty Creator came down to his creation in the person of Jesus. Why? It was to save the lost: "A new commandment I give to you, love one another, love one another even as I love you. Greater love no one has than this, that someone lay down their life for their friends." When we partake of the unleavened bread and the red wine in communion, it is in the remembrance of innocent and holy Jesus' personal sacrifice for our personal salvation. He paid the ultimate price to satisfy the cost for our sin, death. He took our place on the cross and shed his blood so that we would be saved. God set apart his one firstling and holy Lamb to be sacrificed by the killing wolves, in order to spare his entire sheepfold.
---Eloy on 3/2/12


lee1538* Scripture does not say the Roman Catholic church is the pillar & foundation of truth.

Jesus said "He will built his Church on the Rock of Peter"- Which Church is that, I wonder?:)


lee1538* However where do we look for truth apart from the very word of God in scripture?

Ok, using scripture where does it explain the Trinity? Besides John's Gospel tell us not everything Jesus did was wriiten down, something about too many books if they did!

lee1538* Eloy is correct that Until people get saved, they will commonly miscontext and misapply scriptures in order.

But when Eloy miscontext and misapply scripture according to you, Eloy is dead wrong, nice!
---Ruben on 3/2/12


\\Scripture does not say the Roman Catholic church is the pillar & foundation of truth.\\

Do you DENY that the very Bible you appeal to says that the CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of the truth?

\\ ... where do we look for truth apart from the very word of God in scripture?\\

How would you know what books were in the Bible were it NOT for the Church?

\\And rattling beads, eating bread and drinking wine no matter the ritual attached to it, will not bring anyone eternal salvation\\

And you think "sinner's prayers", altar calls, revivals, and "accepting Christ as one's personal savior" (a formula NOWHERE in the Bible) will do so?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/2/12


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Cluny, the whole believe is wrong because if you want to defend the incarnated Christ against heretics, you are speaking against the nature of Jesus who was One human Person. No one has the right to make anything up, and support both.

Ruben the early church fathers of the Catholic Church were wrong in many things. Don't you understand that most of the traditions that were introduce to the Church came in order to convert the pagan and heathens? The only things you read of the fathers is what the RCC teaches. You need to read history from other sources. The fathers use many methods and traditions the pagan and heathen used with their gods, and change things to make the converts more comfortable when joing the Church.
---Mark_V. on 3/2/12


I'm finding that some people believe some strange things.
---Eloy on 3/1/12


Ruben //the Roman Church belief that they alone have the right to interpret scripture.
---
Scripture does not say the Roman Catholic church is the pillar & foundation of truth. However where do we look for truth apart from the very word of God in scripture?

Eloy is correct that Until people get saved, they will commonly miscontext and misapply scriptures in order to make them say whatsoever their unregenerate imaginations will fancy.

And rattling beads, eating bread and drinking wine no matter the ritual attached to it, will not bring anyone eternal salvation.
---lee1538 on 3/1/12


Until people get saved, they will commonly miscontext and misapply scriptures in order to make them say whatsoever their unregenerate imaginations will fancy. And when the blind lead the blind, then both will fall into the ditch.
---Eloy on 3/1/12


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\\lee1538* The entire belief in transubstantiation hangs on one single verse of the Bible \\

lee, aside from the fact that your statement is not true--there are in fact SEVERAL such verses in John 6 alone--how many times does the Bible have to say something for it to be true?

More than once?

If so, can you be specific as to the number.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/1/12


lee1538* The entire belief in transubstantiation hangs on one single verse of the Bible

John 6:54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

And the next one as well " For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed"- among others!

lee1538* and the Roman Church belief that they alone have the right to interpret scripture.

Paul does say that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth and Jesus did said he will built his Church on the Rock of Peter and told the Apostles he who listen to you listen to me and he who rejects you reject me!

---Ruben on 3/1/12


\\The idea of the commuication of divine attrbutes to the human nature is seen by many as a violation of the Council of Chalcedon\\

This is strong meat that should not be discussed in front of those who do not even believe that Jesus is God Incarnate.

**The entire belief in transubstantiation hangs on one single verse of the Bible**

Wrong.

This is repeated SEVERAL times in John 6, not just once, in the Synoptic accounts of the Mystical Supper, and is hinted at in the Epistles.

Can you tell us according to the Bible just WHO has the right and duty to interpret scripture, lee1538?

Please give BCV in your answer.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/1/12


I believe the interpretation only favors their church hierarchy in their belief that they alone can provide or withhold salvation from believers - a political interpretation designed to control others.
---lee1538 on 3/1/12

So I guess the Early Church Fathers were controling the first chiristians because they were unanimous on the interpretation of what Jesus meant. I saw that you 'try' to proof it,but you fail miserably:)
---Ruben on 3/1/12


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//No Christian church teaches transubstantiation,

The entire belief in transubstantiation hangs on one single verse of the Bible

John 6:54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

and the Roman Church belief that they alone have the right to interpret scripture.

I believe the interpretation only favors their church hierarchy in their belief that they alone can provide or withhold salvation from believers - a political interpretation designed to control others.
---lee1538 on 3/1/12


Oh,My, We go from symbolism to "canibalism" without changing gears!
Even when Jesus speaks in illustration to help understanding,the "illustration " becomes the reality, analized and questioned!!
---1st_cliff on 3/1/12


Ruben, the subject is not whether or not Jesus Almighty is able to perform miracles, for most people believe that he performs miracles. But the subject of this blog is the false doctrine of the communion elements being turned into Jesus' actual blood and body, whose resurrected body currently abides whole in heaven: and which lie of transubstance contradicts the truth that the elements are to be partaken "IN THE MEMORY" of his past sacrificial death, even as Christ himself has instructed.
---Eloy on 3/1/12


No Christian church teaches transubstantiation, because it is antiChrist. "Remembering" Jesus' sacrificial death which took place one time historically in the past, recorded to have happened over 2,000 years ago, is not the same thing as "lying" by saying today's communion elements are indeed transformed from the substance of bread and wine into the substance of Jesus' body and blood, when in fact they are not.
---Eloy on 3/1/12


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Cluny 2: Christ is truely present at the Lords Supper but only in deity. The human nature of Jesus is presently localized in heaven. Though the Human nature is contained in one place, the person of Christ is not so contained because His divine nature still has the power of Omnipresence. Jesus said
"I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matt. 28:20) Spiritually Jesus is always with us.
The idea of the commuication of divine attrbutes to the human nature is seen by many as a violation of the Council of Chalcedon, which affirmed that the two natures of Christ, human and divine, are united in such a way as to be without mixture, confusion, seperation, or division, each nature retaining its own attributes.
---Mark_V. on 3/1/12


Thank you, christan and Mark_V.

Please understand that transubstantiation is an attempt to define and explain just HOW the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ.

The Orthodox Church has never committed herself to this explanation.

We simply believe that the Holy Spirit effects the change in an unknowable way, and leave it at that.

Therefore, Mark_V, the teaching of Chalcedon is not violated.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/1/12


Eloy* Ruben, Yes indeed, Jesus sitting at the Passover did not cut himself with a knife and pour his blood from his body into the cup and pass it around to his disciples to drink, nor did the disciples take their forks and gouge out pieces of Christ's body and eat it.

But if Jesus can change water to wine (JHN 2)what stops him from changing the wine to his blood, afer all he is God, right? I beieve what you were trying to say is "How can this man give us his Flesh?(JHN 6:52)Notice what Jesus says in v53-54-55-58 and like them you are saying " when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying, who can hear it?"V60:)
---Ruben on 3/1/12


Cluny, the RCC teach that the divine nature of Christ commuicates this power to the human nature which is in violation against the Council of Chalcedon (AD 451). In the Mass they have the subtance of the body and blood of Christ without the accidents of body and blood. Before the miracle takes place they have the substance and the accidents of bread and wine, after the mircle takes place, they have the substance of Christ's body and blood with the accidents of bread and wine. Which goes against the human nature of Jesus, not His deity. The Mass is celebrated around the world, the question is, how can the human nature of Jesus (body and blood) be at more then one place at the same time? Just not possible.
---Mark_V. on 3/1/12


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transubstantiation, the change by which the substance (though not the appearance) of the bread and wine in the Eucharist becomes Christs Real Presence that is, his body and blood. In Roman Catholicism and some other christian churches the doctrine, which was first called transubstantiation in the 12th century, aims at safeguarding the literal truth of Christs Presence while emphasizing the fact that there is no change in the empirical appearances of the bread and wine.

- Britannica Encyclopedia
---christan on 3/1/12


Ruben, Yes indeed, Jesus sitting at the Passover did not cut himself with a knife and pour his blood from his body into the cup and pass it around to his disciples to drink, nor did the disciples take their forks and gouge out pieces of Christ's body and eat it. But of course NonChristians are taught the lie that the wine turns into Christ's actual blood and the bread turns into Christ's actual body, but this is antiChrist and antiChristian and antiScripture: for Christ said these elements are spiritual, for as long as you keep the Passover, it will be done in the remembrance or commemoration or memorial of Christ's Passover sacrifice as the perfect Lamb of God, until he returns again.
---Eloy on 2/29/12


Trey, A-men, the NonChristians will be deceived into believing the lie, because they believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. They are not able to receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are spiritually discerned.
---Eloy on 2/29/12


\\And let me tell you I do know what it means and why it is not true.
---Mark_V. on 2/29/12\\

Judging from some of the replies, to say nothing about your question that started this blog, the term "transubstantiation" is misunderstood by many people here, including yourself, Mark_V.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/29/12


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Eloy * Christ is very clear that the Passover elements was "in memory" of his sacrifice,: "This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

When Jesus said " For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." ( MT 28:28) His blood was not pour out, it was symbolic..really!

Eloy * The Spirit whom makes being alive, the flesh profits not nothing: the words which I talk to you are spirit, and stands life." Lk.22:19+ Jn.6:63.

Unless you are saying Jesus flesh profits not nothing? The word 'SPIRIT' is never use symbolic in scripture. He is asking us to have suprenatural faith in order to believe in his words!
---Ruben on 2/29/12


Transubstantiation is not biblical. When Christ was speaking of drinking his blood and eating his body he was speaking in a spiritual sense not in a cannabalistic sense.

He that hath ears, let him hear:
John6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Many of Christ's followers left because his words offended them. They could not see that he was speaking in a spiritual sense. Today many are convinced that they must physically eat and physically drink in order to be saved. These actions don't save. Christ's payment for our sins on the cross (God's grace) is what saves us eternally.

---trey on 2/29/12


Is transubstantiation true?

Yes, Paul says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Turth ( 1 Tim 3:15)

Is it possible for Jesus to somehow turn Himself into a piece of bread?

Yes, " This Bread is my Flesh which I will give to the world "(JHN 6:51)

"While they were eating, Jesus took bread,Take and eat, this is my body. (MT 26:25-26)

"and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread" (LK 24:33)
---Ruben on 2/29/12


Transubstantiation of the Communion elements is a NonChristian lie. Christ is very clear that the Passover elements was "in memory" of his sacrifice, and his words "eat me flesh and drink my blood" are "spiritual": "This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. The Spirit whom makes being alive, the flesh profits not nothing: the words which I talk to you are spirit, and stands life." Lk.22:19+ Jn.6:63.
---Eloy on 2/29/12


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Cluny, the reason I posted the blog was because you asked me already if I knew what it meant. I didn't want to take the other blog and hijack it. I will permit others to answer before I answer you. And let me tell you I do know what it means and why it is not true.
---Mark_V. on 2/29/12


No it's not. When Jesus gave the example about him being the bread & wine he was using symbolisim. not literal meaning.
---candice on 2/29/12

Really:

Take and eat, this is my body.(MT 26:26)

"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins" (Mt 26:28)

"For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink." (Jhn 6:55)

Where is the symbolism in these words?

"So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord." ( 1 Cor 11:29)

If it is a symbol, how can you be guilty of it?
---Ruben on 2/29/12


No it's not. When Jesus gave the example about him being the bread & wine he was using symbolisim. not literal meaning.
---candice on 2/29/12


That would then make one a cannibal rather than a Christian.
---christan on 2/29/12

Thats exactly what they accuse Jesus of:

How can this man give us his flesh to eat? (JHN 6:52)

But notice What Jesus says after that :

"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day"v55

And again:

"For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink."

Nothing about hey guys I did not mean my flesh, that would make you cannibals, in Fact you let some of the 'Elect':) walk away.

"From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him"v66
---Ruben on 2/29/12


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\\That would then make one a cannibal rather than a Christian.
---christan on 2/29/12\\

Cannibalism is one of the things the pagan Roman accused Christians of being.

Nice to see you are of one mind with them, christan.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/29/12


That would then make one a cannibal rather than a Christian.
---christan on 2/29/12


Aside from the fact you have it backwards, do you know what "transubstantiation" actually means?

I believe I've asked you this before.

I don't think you do, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/29/12


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