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Does Man Sleep At Death

At death does that which is man sleep or is there an entity in man that continues to be conscious?

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

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 ---lee1538 on 3/3/12
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//How will we drink with Jesus in heaven if we are spooks? //

asking questions like this i do not think you will have to concern yourself with that.

the Scripture says that God is spirit, yet i think he will celebrate in the supper of the Lamb. Rev 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, "Come, gather for the great supper of God,
Rev 19:18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great."

to partake is a little deeper than silly statements.
---aka on 3/12/12


francis, you would have to be really out of your mind to believe those people are asleep. Maybe you do not know what sleep means. Maybe you do and do not want to admit because of your SDA views that those people are not dead. What you would find if you dug them up, would be pieces of something, and pieces of something don't sleep. The Bible says man returns to dust. Does dust sleep? "Come on man"
They are not literally asleep, they are dead. Francis a very very very bad argument you have there. Try another subject you can defend.
---Mark_V. on 3/12/12


//How will we drink with Jesus in heaven if we are spooks?

You really need to ditch those SDA blinders when you read scripture as if you do not you will really go nuts. Then you will have to spend your life savings on mental health professionals.

Those that will participate in the marriage supper of the Lamb will be those who have resurrected and glorified bodies.

You should consider spending more time in reading the Word of God and in prayer instead of trying to pitch what is truly idiotic on this forum.

Do yourself a favor and take a break!
---lee1538 on 3/12/12


//If the person who is physically dead was saved, his spirit will continue to be with the Lord forever.

I notice that neither Jerry nor Francis will answer the question as to what Jesus placed in His Father's hand when He was crucified.

"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last. Lk. 23:46

Since they so desperately want to believe that there is no spirit in man, and that spirit is the same as breath, they have to believe that all God the Father got from Jesus was a puff of air in the face.

Obviously their pride is in the way as they simply refuse to believe that they as well as Adventism is so very wrong on so many issues.
---lee1538 on 3/12/12


Man when dead is not asleep, he is dead.
---Mark_V. on 3/12/12

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are ASLEEP, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Corinthians 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen ASLEEP.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen ASLEEP in Christ are perished.

2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell ASLEEP, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.
---francis on 3/12/12




Man when dead is not asleep, he is dead. If the person who is physically dead was saved, his spirit will continue to be with the Lord forever. When the Second Coming arrives, that spirit will receive a new body prepared for eternal life with Christ. Once a person is born of the Spirit at that very moment, spiritually, God makes him alive together with Christ, and no one can separate us from the love of Christ. No one.
---Mark_V. on 3/12/12


Leest: Now that was better! You actually addressed the topic and didn't bash SDAs or EGW once, although the mules eating barbed wire was a bit nutso.

Jesus is real flesh and bones.

Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Why aren't we flesh and bones in heaven as well?

Mat 26:29 .... I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

How will we drink with Jesus in heaven if we are spooks? You even quote Job where we are flesh and blood when we see Jesus, yet you believe that we are spooks when we see Him.


---jerry6593 on 3/12/12


Jerry//I have presented you with a logical problem for your theory of self-existent spooks, but you refuse to address it, ...

Your logic is to take the Bible and like other religious force an interpretation on it that is contrary to what the saints of His church have believed for centuries. You have no support from Bible expositors.
//The Bible says that Jesus' return is still in the future, and that no man knoweth the hour of it.

Yes, when the Lord returns, the redeemed will have their resurrected and glorified bodies.

Job 19:26 And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God,

Duuhhh, yes I can see you have much the same frustration as those army mules that started to eat barbwire.
---lee1538 on 3/11/12


RHONDA, You said, on 3/6/12, "...MANY are deceived into adding to the story of Lazarus yet there is NO MENTION of either GOING to heaven or hell" But, RHONDA, have you not read the WHOLE Story of Lazarus and the Rich Man? It says in LUKE 16:22-23 "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried, And IN HELL, he lift up his eyes, BEING IN TORMENTS, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." Rhonda, you just said that there is "NO MENTION of either GOING to heaven or hell". But, YAHUSHUA said, in the Bible, that the rich man was "in Hell" where he "lift up his eyes, BEING IN TORMENTS..."
---Gordon on 3/11/12


Jerry, the Lord YAHUSHUA (JESUS) is going to SOON rapture His Bride to be with Him at their Wedding Ceremony of the Lamb. There will be other Saints who will be raptured as "Wedding Guests". Those who will be raptured will not have died. Those who have already died and gone to Heaven will obviously not need to be raptured. They will already be present in Heaven to attend the Wedding. THEN, later, the Lord will return PHYSICALLY to the Earth to reign as King of kings, for 1,000 Years. THEN, the Great White Throne Judgment takes place when all of the Damned will be cast into the Lake of Fire. THEN, Heaven on the New Earth BEGINS.
---Gordon on 3/11/12




Leest: You seem completely unable to focus on the topic at hand. I have presented you with a logical problem for your theory of self-existent spooks, but you refuse to address it, rather continuing your hate rant against Ellen White. I'll try again.

The Bible says that Jesus' return is still in the future, and that no man knoweth the hour of it.

Duuhhh! Then why is He coming back to get us if we already went to be with Him at death???

Francis is right. You ARE obsessed with SDAs. Perhaps it's your animosity toward your SDA sister-in-law or your SDA neighbor that so distorts your thinking.


---jerry6593 on 3/11/12


francis, thanks, but i would like rhonda to answer also.
---aka on 3/10/12


Jerry boy//"The Bible says that Jesus' return is still in the future, and that no man knoweth the hour of it."

Do you suppose that if olde Ellen White had read this verse in the Bible and believed it, she would have recognized her 'attending angel' for what he was, one masquerading as an angel of light?

2Co 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
---lee1538 on 3/10/12


Jesus only spoke to the people in parables (Matt 13:34) and this was for his chosen to understand not everyone (Mark 4:11). No one questions the parable of The Rich man and the unjust servant in the beginning of Ch 16 and it starts off the same way. If you read the entire chapter you will see it that the Pharisees were hearing these things. Furthermore Abraham is the one talking to the rich man and Heb 11 says that he died and did not receive his promise and will not receive his promise until all in Christ receive it together. The first resurrection is 1000 yrs before the resurrection of the incorrigibly wicked (Rev 20:4-6). So Abraham and Lazarus would have been resurrected for at least 1000yrs before the Rich Man.
---B._J. on 3/10/12


lee1538 you have a very unhealthy obsession with SDA. You need to get some professional help.
1: you bring up SDA in almost every blog
2: you are constantly telling lies as to what SDA teach and beleive
3:Yoor obsession is manifested intself in violent and hate speech:
As I stated, the 10 commandments has little or nothing to do with love of neighbor as I can kick the daylight out of Francis and not be found violating any of the big 10.
---lee1538 on 1/22/12

I am concerned that you may become violent towards you inlaws who are SDA

GET HELP SOON
---francis on 3/10/12


what is the meaning of the parable?
---aka on 3/9/12
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

And when Jesus rose from the dead, many did not believe.

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

They had Moses and all the prophets who told about Jesus: His birth, his live on earth, his death and his resurrection. And when jesus rose from they dead, many did not believe
---francis on 3/10/12


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Leest: "The Bible says that Jesus' return is still in the future, and that no man knoweth the hour of it."

Duuhhh! Then why is He coming back to get us if we already went to be with Him at death???

Francis is right. You ARE obsessed with SDAs. Perhaps it's your animosity toward your SDA sister-in-law or neighbor that so distorts your thinking.


---jerry6593 on 3/10/12


RHONDA, I never said that the Bosom of Abraham was Heaven itself. "Bosom of Abraham" is a nick-name for the place where Lazarus went to after he died. In the Story of the Rich Man and Lazarus, Lazarus went to be with father Abraham in Paradise. He was in the very bosom of father Abraham. Abraham was a man of Faith and he went to the Paradise side of what is now completely the Hell of Torments. At death, Lazarus went to Paradise, to be with father Abraham. "Paradise" and HEAVEN are two different places. But, the point IS, is that a person's soul immediately leaves their body, when the body dies, and they go directly to either Heaven or Hell. There is no "soul-sleep" or any period of unconsciousness after death.
---Gordon on 3/9/12


Rhonda, my question is still: in the context of this parable and the gospel that surrounds it, what is the meaning of the parable?
---aka on 3/9/12


Okay, RHONDA, Do you see? I ASKED you to TELL US ALL, here, WHAT the "Parable" means. ALL that you are doing is DISSING and FINDING FAULT with what is said on this Blog, but, you are NOT telling us, then, what the "Parable" MEANS. If the Bosom of Abraham is not (another name for) "Paradise", then, PLEASE TELL US, What IS the Bosom of Abraham? NOTICE that Lazarus was ALIVE and in conversation (with the Rich Man) as he was in the Bosom of Abraham! He was NOT "sleeping" nor "unconscious". He was NOT in "soul-sleep". The Rich Man and Lazarus were holding this conversation AFTER they both died. And, YAHUSHUA/JESUS told this Story Himself. So, TELL US what it ALL MEANS. WILL YOU? Please?!
---Gordon on 3/9/12


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francis//You need help, you are obsessed with SDA
---

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
---lee1538 on 3/9/12


If William Miller and Ellen While would have believed that back in the 1840,s there would probably not been an Adventist denomination.
---lee1538 on 3/9/12

You need help, you are obsessed with SDA
---francis on 3/9/12


Jerry//The Bible says that Jesus' return is still in the future, and that no man knoweth the hour of it.

If William Miller and Ellen While would have believed that back in the 1840,s there would probably not been an Adventist denomination.
---lee1538 on 3/9/12


GORDON!!!

so WHICH verse in Holy Scripture declares the "bosom of Abraham" is heaven? which?

I'll help you out --- there are no verses that IMPLY or ALLUDE to the "bosom of Abraham" to being heaven

what you FAIL to comprehend is YOU must make that up ...YOU must imply the "bosom of Abraham" is heaven

it is YOU who ADDS this idea to Holy Scripture

there is not ONE verse including the verse you mention that STATES "the bosom of Abraham" is heaven

YOU and all those who make this stuff up are simply LIARS who ADD to Gods Holy Word
---Rhonda on 3/9/12


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Rhonda, You say that the Bible "nowhere mentions that the Rich Man and Lazarus lived anywhere else" after they died. But, the Lord YAHUSHUA (JESUS) just got done stating in the "Parable" that one went to the Bosom of Abraham and the other found himself in a tormenting flame in Hell. Those two places are where they went to after Death. It's as plain as day! And, there is NO INDICATION that the tormenting flame is "symbolic". That is religious man reading that into the "Parable".ke of TRADITION. Traditional teachings and religious man-made doctrines.
---Gordon on 3/9/12


RHONDA, If some of us, who declare that the Story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is true, are only "adding to and inferring things that aren't in the Story", then, Please, tell us all exactly what the Story means! Where WAS the Rich Man, then? And, what was the "tormenting flame" that was agitating him? And, HOW do you know that what YOU are believing is true? And, WHERE was Lazarus, really, if not in a particular Place, after he died? Please answer these Questions. Will you? We all want to know the Truth! When YAHUSHUA died on the Cross, did He not "GIVE UP the Ghost", while His lifeless Body still hung on the Cross? He was no longer in that dead Body.
---Gordon on 3/9/12


Rhonda , unlike many, i have no pre=conceived notion that was handed down by other men either way. it was just a statement of fact. i can see it as a parable. a parable is a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson. or, a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like.

everybody here claims to have 'God's truth', yet many insist on making huge sweeping generalizations that put down many and do not really tell God's truth.

So, my question is: in the context of this parable and the gospel that surrounds it, what is the meaning of the parable?
---aka on 3/9/12


Leest: "The Adventists, however, like us to believe man does not have a spirit that goes to be with the Lord at death."

So does Jesus!

Joh 14:2,3 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also.

The Bible says that Jesus' return is still in the future, and that no man knoweth the hour of it.


---jerry6593 on 3/9/12


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aka until i started frequenting this joint almost two years ago, i had never heard, nor had any reason to believe the PARABLE of Lazarus was "real story" because Christ did not teach that idea

many prefer mens fables RATHER THAN Gods Holy Word

to MAKE the parable of Lazarus a "real story" one must:

1)IMPLY and ADD ideas to the story

2) THEN ignore and reject basic Scripture

in other words to believe the parable of Lazarus is a "real" story one must call GOD a LIAR who contradicts His own doctrines

false doctrines of men make the story "real" to those who REJECT Gods Truth
---Rhonda on 3/8/12


Mark Eaton, That's the problem when you trust religious man's traditions and religious man's doctrines, rather than the plain Written Word of GOD.
---Gordon on 3/8/12


both Lazarus and the rich man died!! NOTHING mentions they "lived" anywhere else
---Rhonda on 3/6/12

This is the most idiotic thing I have ever read or heard.

The Creator of Life and Death just said someone died and you questioned Him on whether they actually lived?

Do you believe or trust anything that Jesus says?

Even children know when they see a tombstone that there was a person who lived before they died.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/8/12


//FINALLY! Somebody else who not only agrees, but KNOWS that the Story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is not a Parable, but a factual Story.// Gordon

until i started frequenting this joint almost two years ago, i had never heard, nor had any reason to believe that this story is a parable.

after learning more about what the different cults on this site believe, i can see why they need it to be a parable.
---aka on 3/8/12


Well spoken Gordon & aka!
---Leon on 3/8/12


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Lee and Leon, I completely agree with you. Gordon too on the part of Abrahams bossom. In the Old Testemant before the death of Christ that is where they went. The flesh and blood of man does die. They are not sleeping but physically dead. There spirit now goes to be with God for the believers. For they are never separated from Christ since they are spiritually baptized into one body and Jesus is the Head of that body. If you are asleep and the spirit dies, you cannot be with Christ, not born of the Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 3/8/12


//FINALLY! Somebody else who not only agrees, but KNOWS that the Story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is not a Parable, but a factual Story.// Gordon

until i started frequenting this joint almost two years ago, i had never heard, nor had any reason to believe that this story is a parable.

after learning more about what the different cults on this site believe, i can see why they need it to be a parable.
---aka on 3/8/12


If this is logical to you...what can I say???
---1st_cliff on 3/4/12

you can say anything that you like. i have often heard you say that the Bible is God's word. yet, when i copy verses from the Bible, you mock. what can i say...
He wrote it, not me...


Pro 19:3 The foolishness of man perverts his way, and his heart frets against Jehovah.

1Co 2:13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
---aka on 3/7/12


"sadly PARABLE of Lazarus is taken literally by those who worship and serve their ignorant false ministers!!...
---Rhonda on 3/6/12"


There's none so blind as he (in this case SHE) who refuses to see the truth of the matter. (Matt. 13:10-15)
---Leon on 3/7/12


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Gordon, I don't believe I agreed with you because I did say it was a parable. The story was true. As Mark E said, Jesus does not make up lies. The difference in this parable was that the beggar was the only character ever to be given a name in all His parables. The point of the story was "hades" and the suggestion that a rich man would be exclude from heaven would have scandalized the Pharisees check (Matt. 19:24) especially galling was the idea that a beggar who ate scraps from his table was granted the place of honor next to Abraham. "Hades" refers to the place of the wicked prior to final judgment in hell.
---Mark_V. on 3/7/12


sadly PARABLE of Lazarus is taken literally by those who worship and serve their ignorant false ministers!!

by reading PARABLE out loud one finds GODS TRUTH

1) both Lazarus and the rich man died!! NOTHING mentions they "lived" anywhere else

2) the rich man died and was buried he was in hell THE GRAVE ...not one mention of Lazarus going to heaven

per LYING wicked false ministers who pollute the word of GOD with their pagan antichrist immortality doctrine MANY are deceived into adding to the story of Lazarus yet there is NO MENTION of either GOING to heaven or hell

believe GODS Holy Word or the liars who ADD and imply ideas to Gods Holy Word when GOD WARNS to not ADD to HIS Word?
---Rhonda on 3/6/12


Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath(HEB.-neshamah) of life, and man became a living soul.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit(HEB.-ruwach) shall return unto God who gave it.
--Reinterpreting scripture to support a false doctrine.
---micha9344 on 3/6/12
you missed one interpetation of " spirit" in that context

ruwach
1g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit,
---francis on 3/6/12


Gordon //LEE, It is the flesh-and-blood body that is "asleep"...

Agree and that has been the traditional interpretation of scripture by the church since its conception and more likely was taught by the Apostles & their immediate successors.

The Adventists, however, like us to believe man does not have a spirit that goes to be with the Lord at death. They like to think death separates one from the love of God (Romans 8:38f), and those who believe will die despite what Christ told us in John 11:26 that those who believe will never die.

Unfortuantely as to their theology they are stuck under the smelly skirts of Ellen White.
---lee1538 on 3/6/12


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MarkV, FINALLY! Somebody else who not only agrees, but KNOWS that the Story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is not a Parable, but a factual Story. It tells us exactly where an individual goes at Death. A person who dies in their sin goes directly to Hell at Death. While a redeemed person goes to be in the Presence of the LORD. (Well, in O.T. Times, the Redeemed went to the "Bosom of Abraham" which was the Paradise side of what is completely NOW the Hell of Torments. So, nowadays, the Redeemed go straight to the "Third Heaven" where the Throne of GOD is with the Mansions of the Saints). So, the Story is a True tale. Even if it wasn't, the point is STILL that what occured in the Story is what actually happens to people at Death.
---Gordon on 3/6/12


Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath(HEB.-neshamah) of life, and man became a living soul.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit(HEB.-ruwach) shall return unto God who gave it.
--Reinterpreting scripture to support a false doctrine.
---micha9344 on 3/6/12


Leest: I thought you were an educated person who would easily recognize that a euphemism connotes a truth about the concept being substituted. Hence sleep could never refer to "wide awake but drifting off as a spook" as you would like it.


---jerry6593 on 3/6/12


CREATION OF MAN
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

DEATH OF MAN

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

SAME DUST
SAME BREATH
---francis on 3/6/12


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LEE, It is the flesh-and-blood body that is "asleep" and will be resurrected from the dust of the earth on the Day of Judgment. The soul itself is either in Heaven or in Hell, depending on their spiritual condition by the time of their death. The flesh-and-blood body will be restored and reunited to it's corresponding soul to stand before GOD. For those in Hell, that is not their final destination of Eternal Punishment, the Lake of Fire is.
---Gordon on 3/6/12


Lee, I agree very much with what Elder said and his reasons for saying what he did. It was a parable, but a true story. "There was" a certain rich man" Jesus was not lying. Jesus parable even gave the name of the beggar (Lazarus), and is the only parable where the person was named by name. This was no imaginary tale, but an actual incident that really took place since Jesus said it did. And all believers in Jesus Christ by faith say? Amen.
---Mark_V. on 3/6/12


If Luke 16 is a parable it is the only one that Jesus used proper names in.
---Elder on 3/6/12

There arwe no laws which say that real names cannot be used in parables.
---francis on 3/6/12


//Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And he fell asleep.

Do you actually believe that SLEEP is a conscious state???
---
Jerry I thought you were an educated person as one that is, would easily recognize 'fell asleep' as a euphemism for dying.

But you have been unable to answer exactly what Stephen asked Jesus to receive from him.

Ac 7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

And did God the Father simply get a blow of air in the face when Jesus cried out "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!

Has Adventism got that much ahold on you that you must act brain dead?
---lee1538 on 3/6/12


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If Luke 16 is a parable it is the only one that Jesus used proper names in.
A parable is a story or illustration to point to a spiritual truth. So, what spiritual truth was Jesus pointing to? The truth is a burning Hell!
In His parables Jesus always said, "It is like...," or something to that effect. In Luke 16 He said, "There was."
This is a concrete statement about something that actually was.
Luke 16 is not a parable but a revelation of something that is true!!
---Elder on 3/6/12


Leest:

"But that would not make much sense nor has the translators translates [sic] it as such."

Huh? Talk about not making sense .....

As for your example of Stephen, what does the Bible say of his state in death???

Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Do you actually believe that SLEEP is a conscious state???


---jerry6593 on 3/6/12


//So the breath which Gods back to God is the one God gave.(sic)
----
So you interpret Ecclesiastics 12:7 as -

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the [breath] shall return unto God who gave it."

But that would not make much sense nor has the translators translates it as such.

So in your interpretation, God merely gets a blast of air in the face when a man dies?

And that is all God the Father got when Jesus committed His spirit to Him? Luke 23:46

And Stephen to be accurate should have stated when they were stoning him to death -:

"Lord Jesus, receive my breath."

Ridiculous!!!!!

you really do not have any good arguments to support your views.
---lee1538 on 3/5/12


The verse does not state "the spirit (OF GOD)". If you take that kind of liberty then why not say 'the spirit (of man)'? since man does possess a spirit. We can see that from Romans 8:16
---lee1538 on 3/5/12

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.
Genesis 7:22 All in whose nostrils [was] the breath of life, of all that [was] in the dry [land], died.

Job 27:3 All the while my breath [is] in me, and the spirit of God [is] in my nostrils,

So the breath which Gods back to God is the one God gave

Not the spirit / air which we breath
---francis on 3/5/12


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The rich man and lazarous is a parable not a real life story.
---francis on 3/5/12

If this is true, did Jesus "make up" the facts? Did Jesus tell us a fable?

In the parables Jesus taught, He never lied and He did not make up stuff that was not fact. Jesus would never teach us "fairy tales". He is God and created the entire world. He knows what is fact and what is fiction.

You have a misunderstanding of who Jesus IS.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/5/12


John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.

Believest thou this? Francis

If the believer shall never die, is it only the body that will die?

---lee1538 on 3/5/12


Revelation 6:9-10 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
-How far will one go to push a false doctrine?
---micha9344 on 3/5/12


francis//Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (OF GOD) shall return unto God who gave it.

The verse does not state "the spirit (OF GOD)". If you take that kind of liberty then why not say 'the spirit (of man)'? since man does possess a spirit. We can see that from Romans 8:16

Ro 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

And what about Jesus when He handed God the Father His Spirit on the Cross (Lk. 23:46) or of Stephen when he placed his spirit in the hands of Jesus at his death (Acts 7:59)?

Man does have a spirit, a body, and a soul.
---lee1538 on 3/5/12


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yes they do. we wil lrise at the ressurection. everything John saw in the vision is future tense,not present.
---candice on 3/5/12


I'd have to agree with Francis on that one. I see no evidence scripturally that says we go straight to heaven or hell upon death. That apparently happens after the resurrection of the dead on "that" day.
---JackB on 3/5/12


"Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (OF GOD) shall return unto God who gave it."

Please explain what you believe that means Francis. Thx.
---Leon on 3/5/12


So than francis, God is not the God of the living, but of the dead!

No francis, is this a parable too.
Mar_12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
Mat_22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

God is a living God! Is not the proof that he raises Christ from the dead enough!
Or maybe you dont believe a Christ was raises from the dead.
Or maybe you dont believe God manifested himself in the flesh.

Hereby know ye, 1Jn_4:2-3!
Was Christ a Spirit?
Luk_24:39!
Wake up, oh you cant!
---TheSeg on 3/5/12


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If the dead in Christ go to be with Jesus at their death awaiting the resurrection of the body, then that would blow to bits and pieces the Adventist doctrine of the Investigative Judgment.
---lee1538 on 3/5/12

It sure would. But truthfully the dead in christ do not go to be with God while awaiting the resurrectionof the body

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (OF GOD) shall return unto God who gave it.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the ( INVESTIGATIVE) judgment:
---francis on 3/5/12


If the dead in Christ go to be with Jesus at their death awaiting the resurrection of the body, then that would blow to bits and pieces the Adventist doctrine of the Investigative Judgment - a belief that eternal salvation will be determined solely on the works of the individual.

And that is why they are so very determined to reject the belief that one goes to be with Jesus at death.
---lee1538 on 3/5/12


The rich man and lazarous is a parable not a real life story. If the bible has already established that the dead have no memory, no thoughts, no love and unable to praise God. It would stand to reason that lazarus, Abraham and the rich man would have no love, no memory and no thought.
---francis on 3/5/12


"pagan teaching of immortality is from ancient philosophers who taught the body is separate from the soul ...LIFE is in the blood as proven from dozens of Scriptures ...Christ SHED his soul for mankind HENCE his body bled out!!
Holy Scripture does not teach immortality or body is separate from soul..."


Rhonda: What did Jesus teach? (Luke 16:19-31)
---Leon on 3/4/12


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pagan teaching of immortality is from ancient philosophers who taught the body is separate from the soul ...LIFE is in the blood as proven from dozens of Scriptures ...Christ SHED his soul for mankind HENCE his body bled out!!

Holy Scripture does not teach immortality or body is separate from soul

death is the absence of life and not one verse makes claim DEATH is a continuation of life "somewhere else"

eternal life is a GIFT from God through Christ a REWARD at the resurrection ...to claim one is "conscious" or alive somewhere else after death when Christ has not returned bows down to rcc

True Believers are not ignorant of the truth of death knowing the dead are REALLY dead
---Rhonda on 3/4/12


Luke 23:46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last.

What was committed by Jesus to God the Father if not something that was part of Him?

Ac 7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

Did the Lord Jesus receive a puff of air from Stephen?

Then in Revelation we see the 144,000 who perished being with Christ. They were not sleeping!

No, I believe the Bible indicates that man has a body, a soul, and a spirit.
---lee1538 on 3/4/12


"Lots of passages refer to death as sleep. Not one of them speak about a conscious mind at death
---francis on 3/3/12"


That's because, unfortunately, you have chosen to ignore & not believe Jesus' teaching about Lazarus & the Rich Man. (Lk. 16:19-31) Who is right Francis, you or Jesus? Do "you" know? Regardless of your response, it's a rhetorical question of which I already know the answer is JESUS!
---Leon on 3/4/12


Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish.

Abraham, the rich man, and lazarus would not have been imune to having their thoughts perish at death

If Lazarus and Abraham had any thoughts they would praise God

Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

But they do down in silence

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.
Also their love,...is now perished

No memory, no love at death
---francis on 3/4/12


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Mat_8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

Why? Because everyone who is sleeping is dead!
Its only those who know they are awake that are living.

Joh_11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth, but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Wake up!

Rom_13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Eph_5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Peace
---TheSeg on 3/4/12


aka,**The rich man also died and was BURIED**
**and in Hades** (grave where he was buried) via x ray vision through 6' of earth, saw Abraham !
If this is logical to you...what can I say???
---1st_cliff on 3/4/12


Resurrection from the dead is one of the fundamental beliefs of Christianity. And there are historical records in both the old testament: I Kings 17:17-24, II Kings 13:21, Ezekiel 37:1-14, and in the New Testament: Matthew 28:1-10, John 11:21-44, Acts 9:36-42, confirming this.
---Eloy on 3/4/12


Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers--so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.'

...

Luk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"
---aka on 3/4/12


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Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish.


Any questions?


---jerry6593 on 3/4/12


There are many bible passages that tell us that death is a "sleep." It is sleep because we all we be awaken some day

Psalms 13:3 lest I sleep the sleep of death,

Matthew 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth.

John 11:11 he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth, but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

John 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

Lots of passages refer to death as sleep. Not one of them speak about a conscious mind at death
---francis on 3/3/12


At death, the part of man sleeping in the grave is our physical body. That entity you refer to is our ever conscious, literally disembodied (carried away) spirit/soul that Jesus refers to. (Lk. 16:19-31)

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Dan. 12:2 corroborates Rev. 20 wherein the spirits/souls of the dead will again inhabit their once physically dead/asleep bodies:

- Believers will have put on pristine, new, imperishable bodies coming out of the grave.
- Unbelievers will wear their same old corrupt, now badly soiled & deformed, zombie-like bodies, awakened from sleep in the grave.
---Leon on 3/3/12


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