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Can We Break The Seal

Ephesians 1:13 and 4:30 speaks of being sealed with the promised Holy Spirit for the day of redemption? Can man by his disobedience break this seal?

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 ---lee1538 on 3/4/12
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Ruben//It not just faith alone.
---
What comes to mind is -

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith WITHOUT the deeds of the law.

and the fact that our righteousness is that of Christ.

Php. 3:8-9 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

No Ruben you cannot work your way to heaven.
---lee1538 on 3/16/12


And we can see the validity of this verse in context with the other scripture.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,(present tense!!!!!) and shall not come into condemnation ( JUDGMENT), but is passed from death unto life.
---lee1538 on 3/15/12

Lee,

Read 5:28-29 " Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth, they that have done good, unto he resurrection of life , and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

What does this scripture verse show us?

It not just faith alone.
---Ruben on 3/16/12


francis//you need to learn what the word Judgment means in it's various context.

Yes, we can see where you are coming from as if a word has more than one meaning, you can twist any verse that contains it to fit your errant belief system.

I read the write-up on your book and can easily see that you believe Christianity is merely an extension of Judaism.

To justify the Jewish Sabbath, you say God never changes in His law but you ignore the fact that many of the tenets of Judaism are no longer applicable - the priesthood (Hebrews 7:12), circumcision of males (Acts 15), etc. etc.

Your comic book indicates that religion to you is a game.
---lee1538 on 3/16/12


Francis //or are you too old and too obsessive to learn, which I what I suspect
---
Having been an educator at the college level, I can say one is never too old to learn and never to old to become mature in the faith.

There are far too many today that do not have a viable relationship with the Lord but like the law promoting, sabbath keeping Pharisees are mere professors of the faith. It is too easy to spot the phonies.

From your posts I can see you promote the law instead of acknowledging that scripture tells us the righteous must live by faith depending upon the righteousness that is in Christ (Romans 1:17, Gal. 3:11)

You have much to learn, perhaps one day you will count all you achieved as dung (Php. 3:8).
---lee1538 on 3/16/12


---lee1538 on 3/15/12
you need to learn what the word Judgment means in it's various context

or are you too old and too obsessive to learn, which I what i suspect
---francis on 3/16/12




Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
Matthew 7:24_25 "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house, and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock."

Now, one could build a house in the sand, pretend to men and boast of its permanency against all odds but Jesus said:

"Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."
---Nana on 3/16/12


Romans 8:1-2 There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

Francis will not want to admit the scripture speaks against his belief that God is impotent and has slippery fingers and cannot keep those of whom He has destined for salvation.

And we can see the validity of this verse in context with the other scripture.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,(present tense!!!!!) and shall not come into condemnation ( JUDGMENT), but is passed from death unto life.
---lee1538 on 3/15/12


judment is the bible is used two different ways

1: Judgment as in punishment
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation ( JUDGMENT), but is passed from death unto life.

2: judgment as in decision
Every human being MUST have a decision made one way or the other. 2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad
---francis on 3/15/12


Yes, for those who do not know Christ, there will be a judgment on them based on their works.

However those that are in Christ have already been judged.

I---lee1538 on 3/15/12

Every single human being must be judged

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?
---francis on 3/15/12


Francis -God does NOT have to investigate anything as He is omnipresent (everywhere present), omniscient (all knowing), and omnipotent (all powerful).

So it will not be necessary for God to 'investigate' to see who among the human race, is His children- something He already knows.

As stated before, the Adventist will tell others that one is saved by grace, but they will not immediately reveal that one is saved by works of the law through grace or that if one is saved he will observe the 10 commandments especially the Jewish Sabbath.
---lee1538 on 3/15/12




francis//who does not believe that there will be judgment?
---
Yes, for those who do not know Christ, there will be a judgment on them based on their works.

However those that are in Christ have already been judged.

I am not sure you believe what Jesus said -

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

And if we can accept the testimonies of many that have left Adventism, they say they have passed from death to life when they came into the knowledge of the truth.
---lee1538 on 3/15/12


---lee1538 on 3/15/12
Daniel 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God, and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

who does not believe that there will be judgment?
---francis on 3/15/12


//David_J._Conklin -In 45 years as an SDA I have yet to meet the latter. There are no SDA's who believe that they can be saved by their own works.
---
All that you need to do is to find an SDA that believes in their Investigative Judgment - a belief that those born again in Christ will have to show merit for their eternal salvation.

Many SDA pastors, theologians, and others have left the SDA because this doctrine is basically a works salvation belief that cannot be defended on the basis of scripture alone.
---lee1538 on 3/15/12


>As stated before there are two factions within Adventism, one that believes in Jesus and the other that is much like the Sabbath keeping enemies of Jesus, the legalist.

In 45 years as an SDA I have yet to meet the latter. There are no SDA's who believe that they can be saved by their own works.
---David_J._Conklin on 3/14/12


//Are you going to answer my question?

No, I have already answered the question.

You really need to get HELP for your problem as your posts are starting to indicate that you really have a problem.

As stated before there are two factions within Adventism, one that believes in Jesus and the other that is much like the Sabbath keeping enemies of Jesus, the legalist.

My sister-in-law was a nurse and has had to minister to many that did not know Christ. As a Christian, she realizes that there are many fake Christians in Adventism.
---lee1538 on 3/14/12


Are you going to answer my question?
DOES YOUR SISTER IN LAW, whom you claim agrees with you on most of these issues AND is a SDA agree with you that:

1:She is in a cult
2:The 10 commandments are the old covenant
3:That the sabbath is for jews only
4:That keeping all ten commandments is legalism
5:That SDA teach salvation by obeyng the law
6: Does our sister in Law eat what the Bible calls unclean

If you answer you will see that she does not agree with you at all, and you will realize that she also is aware that you are obsessive about SDA and potentially a danger to her
---francis on 3/14/12


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Did you receive this sealing by the Holy Spirit of promise by being obedient?
If you have, what you think is, a sealing because of what you have done yourself then yes, that seal can break. Of course it was no good in the first place.
If you are sealed by the Holy Spirit then no it can never be broken. The Bible says we are sealed, "Unto the day of redemption." Many don't understand what that really means to begin with.
---Elder on 3/14/12


No my position with regard to these issues has not changed.

Like the scripture you continue to twist what others say in light of the fact that you really cannot defend your own position on these issues..
---lee1538 on 3/14/12


Sorry that you are unable to understand what my position.
---lee1538 on 3/14/12

YOUR POSITION CHANGES
my sister-in-law has MUCH in agreement with (me)
---lee1538 on 3/11/12
I really do not believe I am at liberty to say what my SDA sister-in-law believes
---lee1538 on 3/12/12
she has learned to be tolerant of other viewpoints
---lee1538 on 3/13/12

She respect my viewpoints
---lee1538 on 3/13/12

All are very different.

I may not agree with someone, yet I can respect their view.

I live with people who are not of the same political or religious views as I, yet I am tolerant of their views.

Your sister in law does not agree with you, she may fear your violent tendencies
---francis on 3/14/12


francis//would you like to pick ONE story and go with it?
---
Sorry that you are unable to understand what my position is on these issues. You are obviously too confused in your thinking to be able to grasp the plain meaning of what I posted.
---lee1538 on 3/14/12


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my sister-in-law has MUCH in agreement with (me)
---lee1538 on 3/11/12
I really do not believe I am at liberty to say what my SDA sister-in-law believes
---lee1538 on 3/12/12
she has learned to be tolerant of other viewpoints
---lee1538 on 3/13/12

She respect my viewpoints

I am one that beleives the law is fulfilled by love of neighbor, so would never consider being physically abusive to anyone that has different views than I do.
---lee1538 on 3/13/12
As I stated, the 10 commandments has little or nothing to do with love of neighbor as I can kick the daylight out of Francis and not be found violating any of the big 10.
---lee1538 on 1/22/12

would you like to pick ONE story and go with it?
---francis on 3/13/12


francis//I am indeed correct, she is " tolerant" of your views to avoid physical abuse
----
She respect my viewpoints realizing that Jesus in the Savior, not obedience to laws especially laws given ONLY to the nation of Israel.

In particular I am one that beleives the law is fulfilled by love of neighbor, so would never consider being physically abusive to anyone that has different views than I do.

You are simply attempting to find grounds for slandering othes for being something they are not, but such things are typical of those who are legalists, they always seek to find fault in others so they can falsely accuse others.
---lee1538 on 3/13/12


she has learned to be tolerant of other viewpoints ---lee1538 on 3/13/12

being tolerant of other viewpoint and agreing with you are two different and seperate things

I am indeed correct, she is " tolerant" of your views to avoid physical abuse
---francis on 3/13/12


Francis//Or can you not see that she only agrees with you to prevent you from causing her physical harm due to your obsessive violent nature?
---
Bull! You do not know what you are talking about.

While it is not my concern to get a full listing of my sister-in-law doctrinal stands, having worked with those of many denominations, she has learned to be tolerant of other viewpoints realizing that they can be defended as adequately as her own. That has surprised me in view of the fact that her father was a religious nutcase who had trouble with the authorities because of his refusal to do necessary work on the Jewish Sabbath. And the mother was an Adventist psychic who had visions.
---lee1538 on 3/13/12


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I really do not believe I am at liberty to say what my SDA sister-in-law believes as to all doctrinal questions. ---lee1538 on 3/12/12

I am not asking about ALL SDA doctrine.

DOES YOUR SISTER IN LAW, whom you claim agrees with you on most of these issues AND is a SDA agree with you that:

1:She is in a cult
2:The 10 commandments are the old covenant
3:That the sabbath is for jews only
4:That keeping all ten commandments is legalism
5:That SDA teach salvation by obeyng the law
6: Does our sister in Law eat what the Bible calls unclean?

Or can you not see that she only agrees with you to prevent you from causing her physical harm due to your obsessive violent nature?
---francis on 3/13/12


David_J._Conklin //Misnomer. The Sabbath was made by God at Creation a thousand years plus before there ever was a Jew.
---
As a command there are no records that would indicate that any other tribe on earth observe any particular day of the week except the tribes of Israel.

In fact, there was no standardized calendar among the people, some even had a 10 day week.

The calendar that Isreal used was started by Moses.

Ex 12:2 This month shall be for you the beginning of months. It shall be the first month of the year for you.

They did not use the Egyptian calendar.

Nor do we see any hint of a command for the church to observe any day as holy Romans 14 was written to a largely Gentile audience.
---lee1538 on 3/13/12


>I have discussed with her about the observance of the Jewish Sabbath

Misnomer. The Sabbath was made by God at Creation a thousand years plus before there ever was a Jew.
---David_J._Conklin on 3/12/12


Jerry - I really do not believe I am at liberty to say what my SDA sister-in-law believes as to all doctrinal questions. I have discussed with her about the observance of the Jewish Sabbath, the dietary laws - the main features of Adventism, and come away with the conclusion that many of her beliefs are the same as mine.

BUT I can believe what the AMG's Encyclopedia states that there are 2 main divisions in Adventism, the legalists and those that are Christian, those that believe in olde Ellen White and those that more or less recognize what she was.
---lee1538 on 3/12/12


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Leest: You are dodging Francis' questions. Now try to focus and answer them one at a time. This is not an amateur tapdancing show.


---jerry6593 on 3/12/12


The question is ask is
DOES YOUR SISTER IN LAW, whom you claim agrees with you on most of these issues AND is a SDA agree with you that:

1:She is in a cult
2:The 10 commandments are the old covenant
3:That the sabbath is for jews only
4:That keeping all ten commandments is legalism
5:That SDA teach salvation by obeyng the law

I already know what you think, what I want to know is does your sister in law agree with you on these
---francis on 3/12/12


Francis //The 10 commandments are the old covenant That the sabbath is for jews only
---
At least you are partially correct. Yes scripture does tell us the Old Covenant is the 10 commandments.

Ex 34:28 And he was there with the LORD 40 days and 40 nights, he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of THE COVENANT, the TEN commandments.
See also Deut. 4:13

And we can also say scripture views the old Covenant as obsolete (Hebrews 8:13) and expresses that ministry of death & condemnation for those who will not walk by the ministry of His Spirit.2 Cor. 3:7,9

And scripture also tells us that the Sabbath is a sign of that old covenant God made ONLY with Israel Exodus 31:13.
---lee1538 on 3/11/12


---lee1538 on 3/11/12
Does your sister in law beleive that:
She is in a cult
The 10 commandments are the old covenant
That the sabbath is for jews only
That keeping all ten commandments is legalism
That SDA teach salvation by obeyng the law
---francis on 3/11/12


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francis//No SDA here agrees with you on any issues and if you sister in-law is a SDA neither does she.She would not agree that she is in a cult.

Not all Adventists are cultist, some born again believers in Christ. Christ knows how to jump over denominational barriers.

//She would not agree that the 10 commandments are the old covenant

True but Romans 14:5-6 gives one an option to observe any day as holy, and she does that on Saturdays.

//She would not agree that the sabbath is for jews only.

Since the early church was all Jewish and continued in the Jewish religion, allowances were made for personal convictions. The sabbath law is NOT mandatory for Christians.
---lee1538 on 3/11/12


Fortunately my sister-in-law has much in agreement with my views on these issues.
---lee1538 on 3/11/12

No SDA here agrees with you on any issues and if you sister in-law is a SDA neither does she.
She would not agree that she is in a cult
She would not agree that the 10 commandments are the old covenant
She would not agree that the sabbath is for jews only
She would not agree that keeping all ten commandments is legalism
She would not agree that SDA teach salvation by obeyng the law

I think that she realizes that you are obsessed, possible mentaly imbalanced, and that she fears that you may cause her and her family physical harm, so she " agrees" with you to pacify you.
---francis on 3/11/12


//I am concerned you may become violent towards you in-laws who are SDA.

Fortunately my sister-in-law has much in agreement with my views on these issues.

I suspect the reason why is she is a Christian first and a Sabbaterian secondary.

She does recognize the fact olde Ellen White had views that pertained much to her own times that today are viewed today as odd and backwards.

As stated before in my quote from AMG's Encyclopedia of World Religions, Cults & the Occult, there are really 2 factions in Adventism, namely what most of us would view as the Christian faction and the legalistic faction that has the audacity to call themselves Christians.

I have little respect for the views of the latter faction.
---lee1538 on 3/11/12


Leest: "It is a [the most] comprehensive and exhaustive study of the Sabbath ever produced."

I suggest you get a copy of "History of the Sabbath" by J.N. Andrews instead. It is much more "exhaustive" and reliable.


---jerry6593 on 3/11/12


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//Yes it is obvious Lee has snapped and hopefully he will not be so proud to seek out help for his very sick obsession.

I would say that Lee is frustrated with those who have eyes that do not see, nor ears that do not hear.

The mindset of the cultist is extremely difficult to alter as the brightest of light cannot penetrate such darkness.

Indeed Scripture is very plain!

In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2Cor. 4:4
---lee1538 on 3/11/12


"sadly when many adopt their denominational views they become so drawn into these views they become cult-like in their approach to religion"

Have you even consider looking at yourself in the mirror and say you are not what you accuse others of doing?
---christan on 3/10/12


I am concerned that you may become violent towards you inlaws who are SDA

GET HELP SOON
---francis on 3/10/12
*****

Yes it is obvious Lee has snapped and hopefully he will not be so proud to seek out help for his very sick obsession

sadly when many adopt their denominational views they become so drawn into these views they become cult-like in their approach to religion

one only needs to look to all the HATE Lee has for these sda's (whatever that is) and some women named Ellen by looking at his many many dozens of blog post questions and his blog answers ...vast majority are centered around his obsession and the hate slander he is in constant need of reaffirming
---Rhonda on 3/10/12


"Of course, the Adventist god has slipperly fingers and is unable to save those who trust in Christ."

lee, I don't think that this is peculiar to Adventist god. Other so-called "christians" suffer from this "slippery theology" too. They say that one can loose their salvation if they do not do this, do that - turning salvation by grace into works.

Christ clearly declared, "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:29, confirmed by Paul "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?" Romans 8:35
---christan on 3/10/12


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Of course, the Adventist god has slipperly fingers and is unable to save those who trust in Christ.
---lee1538 on 3/10/12
you have a very unhealthy obsession with SDA. You need to get some professional help.
1: you bring up SDA in almost every blog
2: you are constantly telling lies as to what SDA teach and beleive
3:Yoor obsession is manifested intself in violent and hate speech:
As I stated, the 10 commandments has little or nothing to do with love of neighbor as I can kick the daylight out of Francis and not be found violating any of the big 10.
---lee1538 on 1/22/12

I am concerned that you may become violent towards you inlaws who are SDA

GET HELP SOON
---francis on 3/10/12


francis//What does this have to do with the blog topic?

Do you not want me to respond to your comment on DA Carson?

In any case, those in Christ are now sealed unto eternal life even if they do not observe the Sabbath or other unique tenets of Judaism.

Eph. 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Eph. 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Of course, the Adventist god has slipperly fingers and is unable to save those who trust in Christ.
---lee1538 on 3/10/12


It is a comprehensive and exhaustive study of the Sabbath ever produced.
---lee1538 on 3/9/12

What does this have to do with the blog topic?

Can you not see that you are obsessed with SDA?

Every single post does not have to be about SDA or sabbath. You need professional help
---francis on 3/9/12


francis//There are no passages is luke that say or suggest any such thing. This is the imagination of one DA Carson
---
The book "From Sabbath to Lord's Day - biblical, historical, and theological investigation" - was merely edited by DA Carson. It comprises several articles by different authors.

It is a comprehensive and exhaustive study of the Sabbath ever produced.

Unfortunately there are too many people that will defend what they want to believe even if all the facts are available to them. This has been the situation back in the Dark Ages when some in their interpretation of Scirpture believed that the world was flat. It is easy to see that Adventists are stuck in a mind set that is much similar.
---lee1538 on 3/9/12


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"According to Luke, the church at first, had not worked out the full implications of its Easter experience and to a great extent, merely ran on in the well-worn grooves of Jewish piety." p. 121, From Sabbath to Lord's Day, DA Carson.

---lee1538 on 3/8/12
There are no passages is luke that say or suggest any such thing. This is the imagination of one DA Carson
---francis on 3/9/12


While the Word of God is our foundation,... ---lee1538 on 3/9/12
except your doctrine does not come from the bible, you quote literature not scripture

The article "the Sabbath, Sunday and the Law in Luke/Acts' by Turner
---lee1538 on 3/9/12

From Sabbath to Lord's Day, DA Carson.
---lee1538 on 3/8/12
---francis on 3/9/12


Just because one sees the verse "And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith." in Luke 17:5, you come to the conclusion that "Did they get any faith? No, they did not."?

Read the context of Luke 17:1-4 prior to verse 5 and you see that Christ was preaching about everyone is a sinner and they must seek repentance from the Father and those they have offended. For the disciples to humbly say, "Increase our faith", it's an acknowledgement that "faith" indeed is from God and only He can increase the Christian "faith" to know Him more.

Verse 5 tells us that only by 'faith' can we "seek for His kingdom and righteousness" daily.
---christan on 3/9/12


getting back to the topic
Hebrews 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

So then peple who: were once enlightened, have tasted of the heavenly gift, made partakers of the Holy Ghost (THE SAME ONE WHICH SEALS)
can fall away / break the seal
---francis on 3/9/12


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>Very obviously there was a need for the Jerusalem council Acts (15:5) to met as issues had to be settled, especially if Gentile coverts had to become Jewish in order to be legit.

Not "legit," but to be saved.
---David_J._Conklin on 3/9/12


Francis //This is not from Luke writings this is from DA Carson.

The article "the Sabbath, Sunday and the Law in Luke/Acts' by Turner is about as extensive and exhautive as can be possible.

It is too easy to see from an indepth study of Luke & Acts that the early church was in transition from its Jewish roots, that they did not immediately understand what constitutes the New Covenant.

Very obviously there was a need for the Jerusalem council Acts (15:5) to met as issues had to be settled, especially if Gentile coverts had to become Jewish in order to be legit.

Yes, I can understand your frustration as apparently you are dealing with those that are far knowledgeable of church history and the Bible.

---lee1538 on 3/9/12


Of course, if he could he would live, but he cannot, for no one is saved by the law, because they cannot keep all of the law. If you could keep the whole law on your own you too would be saved for you would be righteous without Christ. You would not need Christ.
---Mark_V. on 3/9/12

Mark,

Really, it says if the wicked will turn, it shall live. the next verse says "All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live."V 22
---Ruben on 3/9/12


Francis //I am sorry if I am wrong, but I get the impression that you are an old man who gets confused between whatm the bible says and what scholars write. Am i correct
---
One characteristics of cults that we often see in the literature is that they are often confused in their doctrinal view which often change from time to time.

While the Word of God is our foundation, I believe that we should be taught doctrine and what support the different doctrines have from scripture.

John 7:17KJV If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

And that is why we should listen to those the Lord has called into the teaching ministry.
---lee1538 on 3/9/12


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Luke 17:5 "And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith."
Did they get any faith? No, they did not.

Why did Paul worry so much?
Acts 13:43 "Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God."

What a lovely man, persuading them to continue in the grace of God! Amen!
---Nana on 3/9/12


"According to Luke, the church at first, had not worked out the full implications of its Easter experience and to a great extent, merely ran on in the well-worn grooves of Jewish piety." p. 121, From Sabbath to Lord's Day, DA Carson.

---lee1538 on 3/8/12

This is not from Luke writings this is from DA Carson

Luke says no such thing

I am sorry if I am wrong, but I get the impression that you are an old man who gets confused between whatm the bible says and what scholars write. Am i correct
---francis on 3/9/12


And one gets out of Mark 5:34, Luke 17:19 that the recipients of Christ healing was because their faith was from within themselves? Ya, right. According to you, Paul then had no right to teach us that "faith is a gift from God".

Why didn't Paul teach like you teach that a man who's dead in sins and trespasses can produce from within themselves "faith that can please God"? That's because Paul was never a "free-willer" nor taught it. Or he wouldn't have confessed, "But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace."

One gospel's from the pits of hell and the other by the grace of God.
---christan on 3/9/12


Ruben, you said,
""But if the wicked do penance for all his sins which he hath committed, and keep all my commandments, and do judgment, and justice, living he shall live, and shall not die."( Ez 18:21)"

It doesn't say "if the wicked do penance".
"but if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statues, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die."

Of course, if he could he would live, but he cannot, for no one is saved by the law, because they cannot keep all of the law. If you could keep the whole law on your own you too would be saved for you would be righteous without Christ. You would not need Christ.
---Mark_V. on 3/9/12


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//How could anyone have been enlightened and still go back to the sanctuary system.

Hebrews was written primarily to those of the Jewish Christian community that did not understand the gospel but believed much like Adventists do today, that the New Covenant was but an extention of the Old, that animial sacrifice, temple worship, the Levitical dietary laws as well as the OT Sabbath were still in effect.

"According to Luke, the church at first, had not worked out the full implications of its Easter experience and to a great extent, merely ran on in the well-worn grooves of Jewish piety." p. 121, From Sabbath to Lord's Day, DA Carson.

Like most Adventists, you really are ignorant of early church history.
---lee1538 on 3/8/12


"But without faith it is impossible to please him" and where must "faith" come from? "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
christan on 3/8/12

Mark 5:34 "And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole, go in peace, and be whole of thy plague."
Being made whole is the Grace granted Through Her Faith.

Luke 17:19 "And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole."
Same thing
---Nana on 3/8/12


There was an obligation to fulfill requirements found within the old sacrificial system if one committed a sin. But in going back to that system, one ignores what Christ accomplished for us at the Cross.
---lee1538 on 3/8/12
Those who were enlightened would have known what christ did on the cross

How could anyone have been enlightened and still go back to the sanctuary system.

The fact that they were enlightened, says that THEY KNEW.. had the LIGHT...John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

If they were doing the earthly sanctuary system after the death of Jesus it means they were not enlightened

May i ask a very person question: How old are you?
---francis on 3/8/12


francis //How could these who have been ENLIGHTENED be the same who "seek forgiveness thru the old sacrificial system and attempt to become justified thru the law?"

There was an obligation to fulfill requirements found within the old sacrificial system if one committed a sin. But in going back to that system, one ignores what Christ accomplished for us at the Cross.

In the same way, observances of OT laws such as the observance of a particular day of the week, really do nothing toward our salvation. We are, however, to benefit if we have communal worship as did the early church in observing the Lord's day, Sunday.
---lee1538 on 3/8/12


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"But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die." Ezekiel 18:21

True, very true. However,

"But without faith it is impossible to please him" and where must "faith" come from? "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

Your understanding of Ezekiel 18:21 is erroneous and that's because Pharaoh also "repented" but was never forgiven. Even the Jews and other religions will tell you they repent daily (more than even the Christian) but is God going to save them?
---christan on 3/8/12


Would you agree that those who seek forgiveness thru the old sacrificial system and attempt to become justified thru the law are really the ones that have fallen away?
---lee1538 on 3/7/12
Of course not.
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

How could these who have been ENLIGHTENED be the same who "seek forgiveness thru the old sacrificial system and attempt to become justified thru the law?"

What then would this enlightenment be about
---francis on 3/8/12


God is Holy and evil is contrary to His being. He must first create the reprobate and harden him into total disobedience, so that He can demonstrate His wrath. That's because God is HOLY and JUST! "The LORD hath made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."
---christan on 3/8/12

"But if the wicked do penance for all his sins which he hath committed, and keep all my commandments, and do judgment, and justice, living he shall live, and shall not die."( Ez 18:21)
---Ruben on 3/8/12


Ruben, God did not tempt Pharaoh to begin with. He simply created Pharaoh to be "the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" as declared by Paul.

Paul even declared, "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." Didn't God destroy Pharaoh and his people?

God is Holy and evil is contrary to His being. He must first create the reprobate and harden him into total disobedience, so that He can demonstrate His wrath. That's because God is HOLY and JUST! "The LORD hath made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."
---christan on 3/8/12


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francis//So then peple who: were once enlightened, have tasted of the heavenly gift, made partakers of the Holy Ghost (THE SAME ONE WHICH SEALS)
can fall away / break the seal
---
Would you agree that those who seek forgiveness thru the old sacrificial system and attempt to become justified thru the law are really the ones that have fallen away?

Is this not what Hebrews is addressing?

Those that believe in their minds that Jesus is the Christ, but never reached that stage of being born of His spirit are really the ones "who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost".
---lee1538 on 3/7/12


it's you who cannot deal with the fact that it is God who does the hardening of Pharaoh and then Pharaoh acts out the hardening, and yet in all this God remains HOLY!

---christan on 3/6/12

Christan,

It does not say that Pharoah acts out the hardening, you adding to it.. It says " he sinned yet more , and hardened his heart, he and his servants"(Exodus 9:34)

Now is God contradicting himself? James tells us 'no'.

Man does it by himself. James 1: 12-14 tells us "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed."
---Ruben on 3/7/12


"so because it shows in chapter 9, it did not happen, please deal with it!"

O Ruben, I have no problem with what Scripture said in chapter 9:34 of Exodus. But you must agree Exodus 9:34 cannot happen if God does not harden Pharaoh as He told Moses He would do in Exodus 4:21 - which makes a world of difference as far as your understanding and mine is concern.

On the contrary, it's you who cannot deal with the fact that it is God who does the hardening of Pharaoh and then Pharaoh acts out the hardening, and yet in all this God remains HOLY!

I have no problem with the fact that God does as He pleases with His creation. Even creating reprobates for destruction. Can you deal with this?
---christan on 3/6/12


Hebrews 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

So then peple who: were once enlightened, have tasted of the heavenly gift, made partakers of the Holy Ghost (THE SAME ONE WHICH SEALS)
can fall away / break the seal
---francis on 3/6/12


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lee, there is no such thing as up-sliding, only back-sliding. Backsliding is Apostacy. It is deserting the Lord and the true way and substituting this for falsehood and heresy. Yes, both testaments speak of apostacy (Please Read- Isaiah 5:20, Jeremiah 2:13,19-25. And, II Thessalonians 2:3, II Timothy 3:5, II Peter 2:1-3,14-22, Revelation 2:4,5). Just as people choose to leave their spouse, people leave Christ. It is called backsliding, and falling from grace into perdition: "From that many of his disciples went away, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus to the twelve, Will all you also go away?" Jn.6:66,67.
---Eloy on 3/6/12


Ephesians 2:6 "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

Ephesians 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Now, if you are not sitting "in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" or walking in good works as you should, what is sealed?

Sounds good to you saying that no matter what you do you are in like Flinn. But that is not the case.

John 15:5 "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." This is what being sealed is,you cannot go it alone?
---Nana on 3/6/12


The verse you "quoted" does not appear until well into Exodus 9:34 - the after effect of God's hands in hardening Pharaoh's heart. And do you think this "hardening by God" stopped at only Pharaoh? Think real hard.
---christan on 3/6/12

Christian, so because it shows in chapter 9, it did not happen, please deal with it!

" and hardened his heart, he and his servants. .v 9:34

Is God contradicting himself, of course not! Scripture is very clear that God does not make,coerce, or program anyone to sin. Man does it by himself. James 1: 12-14 tells us "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: "
---Ruben on 3/6/12


//Yes, it is called back-sliding and falling away into perdition.

And what then is 'up-sliding'? getting back into the groove of the church hierarchy?

The flag verse for all 'back-sliders"!

2 Timothy 2:13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful-for he cannot deny himself.
---lee1538 on 3/6/12


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Yes, it is called back-sliding and falling away into perdition. Many will say "Yes to Jesus" and join up with him, but just as there are four types of hearts: the wild, the stony ground, the thorns in life, and the soft ground, so too only the soft and piable heart will root deep and bear much fruit onto eternal life, some an hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.
---Eloy on 3/5/12


Jude 1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

Perserved has the connnotation of being sealed.
---lee1538 on 3/5/12


To even suggest that the man, who's made of dust can "break the seal" of God is to say that the creature is much more powerful than the creator. Which is IMPOSSIBLE!

It's either the sinner is covenanted in the "promise" or he isn't. The epistle to the Ephesians clearly teaches about election and that the promises are only for the elect of God in His Son Jesus Christ.

It's either you're in by the grace of God through election or you're out because God never chose you. Bottomline, it's God's sovereign choice who He will save and destroy. Love it or hate it, it's been written and declared by God.
---christan on 3/5/12


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