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How Does God Save

According to the Scriptures, did God save the sinner while he was "drowning and calling for help" or the sinner was "dead in sins and trespasses"? What does Scripture really say?

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 ---christan on 3/5/12
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"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."
Ephesians 1:4,5,6

"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty.

That no flesh should glory in his presence."
1 Corinthians 1:27,29
---christan on 3/12/12


DO YOU really hear His Voice christan? You have over an d over here on line OBJECTED to His voice!

1 Peter 1:7
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Revelation 3:18
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich, and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear, and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
---kathr4453 on 3/12/12


It apears Your eyes have never seen anything except your own election. Again all you can recite here is your election, yet have no proof you were elected. Are we just to take your word for it?

HOW DO YOU KNOW you are one of the elect? Certainly not by any evidence.

I KNOW I have been crucified with Christ, because teh EVIDENCE of the marks of Christ are in me. Those marks are the marks of suffering, being made conformable to His Death.
---kathr4453 on 3/12/12


"For this people's heart is ---
---christan on 3/12/12
This is true of Israel...THIS PEOPLE is not referring to ALL people, THIS again is Israel. But as a JEW myself christian, I BELIEVE, therefore this does not apply to me. Does it you?

Oh and has God ever HEALED my life..again EVIDENCE.


My HEART heard, and my heart understood. My Heart here is my CONSCIENCE. You see, my conscience never DIED. Yet you want to say a dead man can't hear. My Conscience never DIED. And after Adam sinned, his conscience was very much ALIVE KNOWING he did wrong and HID. Behavior of a healthy conscience.

Now a sociopath has no conscience of right or wrong.

Man did not become sociopaths at teh fall. Adam proves that!
---kathr4453 on 3/12/12


The reason God concluded ALL in unbelief, meaning all Jews, is so He could have Mercy on ALL, meaning Both Jew and Gentile.

Remember God had to pronounce Israel in unbelief so that they would not get any ideas, because they were God's Elect, that they were already saved...by keeping the Law.

WHOSOEVER in John 3:16 means exactly that WHOSOEVER is Jews and Gentiles.

Not only for ours, as John writes referring to Jews, but the sin of the whole world..meaning Gentiles.

Remember too, in Acts salvation was FIRST to Jews, and then to Gentiles.

To save US from OUR SIN spoken in the Gospels was spoken by a JEW referring to JEWS!
---kathr4453 on 3/12/12




Acts 13:32-34
32And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, ((The Fathers here is the Fathers of Israel))

33God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children,(((WHO IS THEIR CHILDREN)))??? ISRAEL!!)) in that he hath raised up Jesus again, as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

34And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. WHO is given the sure mercies of David?? WHO was this addresed to? ANS: ISRAEL

All this was promised in the OT.

Again I reiterate... WHO was this spoken to?
---kathr4453 on 3/12/12


kathr, if according to you, "brag all you want about your imaginary election. SHOW us the proof of that election!" Like I've always said, you're a typical "Pontius Pilate".

Jesus said to Pilate, "Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. Pilate saith unto him, What is truth?" And like Pilate you ask, "SHOW us the proof of election".

How true when Christ said, "For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."
---christan on 3/12/12


34And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

You see Markv, I was GIVEN the sure mercies of David....and YOU had to beg for God's Mercy???

Mine has to do with salvation, resulting from the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Your's was based on WHAT????


Thank you blogger.

Yes God did knock on the door of my heart, and I heard His Voice, and I open the door of my heart, and Christ with God and the Holy Spirit CAME INTO ME, just as Jesus said He would resulting in Colossians 3:1-4 and then some!!
---kathr4453 on 3/12/12


Blogger, you and Kathr are wrong. God does not stand at the door of anyones heart. Pure nonsense. Nowhere are we told that. Just another passage twisted to turn the Truth to a lie. A common accurance by her and you believed it.
This letter was written to the whole Church at Laodicea. Which had become rich. Jesus was willing to enter the Church if there was one convert who could hear His voice. Only His sheep hear His voice and follow Him.
"To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His Throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches" No one responded to His voice, no sheep present, no one had the Spirit of God.
---Mark_V. on 3/12/12


It must be extremely frustrating for 'free-willers' to come to the knowledge that God has revealed in His Word that He chosen one for salvation before the foundations of the world, and yet they cannot believe He has done so. Scriptures after Scriptures He declares of election, yet many scoff and spit at the very revelation that it's His Sovereign right to do so.

God declares, "the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it." and no matter how much they hate that He has chosen, He also says "For I am the LORD, I change not, therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."
---christan on 3/12/12




"Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect, and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them." Psalm 139:16

"yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands, thy walls are continually before me." Isaiah 49:15,16

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Jeremiah 1:5
---christan on 3/12/12


"Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee, Fear not, O Jacob, my servant, and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen." Isaiah 44:2

"But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen, immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood." Galatians 1:15,16

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." John 15:16
---christan on 3/12/12


"You see, for God to demonstrate His mercy He must create the man and put him into unbelief which will most definitely result in disobedience."
christan on 3/12/12
"God did make the wicked for the day of evil, but He did not make them wicked, they did it all by themselves."
Mark_V. on 3/11/12 (Inaccurate Verbal Statements)

One says that God "put him (the man) into unbelief". The other says, "they did it all by themselves".

Who is right?
---Nana on 3/12/12


"And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people, that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light,

Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."
1 Peter 2:8,9,10
---christan on 3/12/12


Blogger, you and Kathr are wrong. God does not stand at the door of anyones heart. Pure nonsense. Nowhere are we told that. Just another passage twisted to turn the Truth to a lie. A common accurance by her and you believed it.
This letter was written to the whole Church at Laodicea. Which had become rich. Jesus was willing to enter the Church if there was one convert who could hear His voice. "Only His sheep hear His voice and follow Him."
"To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His Throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches" No one responded to His voice, no sheep present, no one had the Spirit of God
---Mark_V. on 3/12/12


(Rev 3:20)
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


Kathryn is right on. (Beautiful name by the way :D )

If people are "predestined to accept Christ" wouldnt that be more like him kicking the door down and forcing his way in?

Why does He knock? You know why. He is waiting for us to open the door.
---Blogger9680 on 3/12/12


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1 Peter 2:8
---christan on 3/11/12

What? Jews who REJECTED Jesus Christ, and the stone of stumbing and rock of offence is Jesus Christ via the CROSS christan, and our identification with Christ Crucified, Peter concluding in **1st Peter 4**, of which ALL calvinists have rejected, especially YOU, ((( read some of your post questions lately))).

I am crucified with Christ VS the LAW. I chose the way of the cross, where my righteousness is not my own but the righteousnes of Christ who IS my life.Phil 3, Colossians 2 and 3

No actually Paul would be very embarassed by your ignorance of scripture christan.

.
---kathr4453 on 3/12/12


What were YOU preached? Christ CRUCIFIED? Or Not..

1 Corinthians 1:21-25
21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness,

24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

IT SAYS: By the Foolishness of PREACHING, nothing about the Sovereign right of election.
---kathr4453 on 3/12/12


Psalm 66:12
Thou hast caused men to ride over our heads, we went through fire and through water: but thou broughtest us out into a wealthy place.

Read about the FIRE in 1st Peter christan.

Fire PURIFIES. Jesus baptism with Fire purifies, and the WATER cleanses. Being made CLEAN through the Word end result>>>>Revelation 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Now sweety, you can brag all you want about your imaginary election. SHOW us the proof of that election!

Example:
...to be HOLY AND BLAMELESS before Him in Love
---kathr4453 on 3/12/12


JackB, "disobedient" is not the keyword to 1 Peter 2:8. It's merely the result of "unbelief" and Peter said, "whereunto also they were appointed".

Confirming Paul's teaching "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all." Romans 11:32

You see, for God to demonstrate His mercy He must create the man and put him into unbelief which will most definitely result in disobedience. Yes, God did not give Adam & Eve "His gift of faith" so that they will disobey His command. Why did God do this? That He can demonstrate mercy.

Go wrap you finite mind on this awesome plan of salvation.
---christan on 3/12/12


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Kathr I don't have to condemn you, your own words condemned you. Then you try to defend yourself making vicious remarks to others as you usually do. And want others to believe the Truth is coming from within you. And all we see is venom. Scripture tells us that your own words either save you are condemn you. And guess what? They condemn you. What I surprises me is that you have many followers, who amen your words. So did Jim Jones, and his words were also from the bowels of hell. They condemned him.
Guess where he is at?
---Mark_V. on 3/12/12


Christan, what does the word "disobedient" mean to you?
---JackB on 3/12/12


"I heard the Gospel, BELIEVED Jesus died for MY SIN, asked Christ into my heart, gave God my WHOLE LIFE..."

WOW! Even Paul would have been embarrassed "how you were converted"! Read Acts 9 and tell us was this how Paul was also converted?

O please, I beg of thee to find an account in Scripture of such a conversion like yours. I am very sure there is none. Such a "confession" like yours tells the world, "It's I who chose Christ, that's why I am going to heaven". Really, is this how it works?

"And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." 1 Peter 2:8
---christan on 3/11/12


Read Malachi 1:2 and you will come to the realization that Romans 9 is speaking of the nations of Israel (Jacob) and Edom (Esau).

Esau never served Jacob, but Edom did serve Israel.

Gen 25:23
And the LORD said unto her, Two NATIONS are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels, and the one people shall be stronger than the other people, and the elder shall serve the younger

Some Calvinists think they are saved before they even come to faith in Christ. It makes you wonder what they truly put faith in.
---Blogger9680 on 3/11/12


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Romans 9 is all about God's Sovereignty in the election of sinners and the creation of reprobates.

Talk about "Your scriptures are a hodge podge nonsense!" Yours is from the pits of hell!
---christan on 3/11/12


Where in Romans 9 is the CREATION of reprobates?

Seems as thoug Cain was reprobate long before creating reprobates in Rmans 9. And where is any scripture stating God CREATED reprobates. Creation ended on day 6, and no one was created reprobate in the first 6 days. Not even satan was created a reprobate.

Christan your understanding if scripture is from hell, and written on the walls of calvins bowels. NO LIGHT!

The More you talk the worse it gets!
---kathr4453 on 3/11/12


The Word makes it simple, man complicates it.

1 Cor. 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand, 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures,
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
---michael_e on 3/11/12


MarkV, no I said I didn't BEG for mercy AFTER I received Jesus Christ. I BELIEVE Mercy is given to those who have received Jesus Christ...not something you beg for before or after to receive forgivness. THAT is a works salvation.

You continue to LIE and twist the truth. YOU have no clue as to my salvation MarkV, and I have no clue as to what you are talking about. You need to put down exact words, not make something up and expect people to believe your lies.

I heard the Gospel, BELIEVED Jesus died for MY SIN, asked Christ into my heart, gave God my WHOLE LIFE ..totally surrenderd to HIS CALL. Yes He said KATHRYN I WANT YOUR WHOLE LIFE. I said YES.

Now if that doesn't meet with YOUR false gospel, I DON'T CARE.
---kathr4453 on 3/11/12


"is not about GENTILES but Jews, God chose Jacob over Esau. Both were Isaac's sons, and one or the other was to be given the privledge of the lineage to bring forth Jesus Christ."

Where in Romans 9 did Paul taught of this understanding which you have and proudly speak off? Romans 9 is all about God's Sovereignty in the election of sinners and the creation of reprobates.

Talk about "Your scriptures are a hodge podge nonsense!" Yours is from the pits of hell!
---christan on 3/11/12


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This is what liars and deceivers are made of. First they criticize one's understanding by saying, "Why are you using OT scriptures having NOTHING to do with the Gospel message of salvation..." and get cornered.

Rather standing for what they initially belief, like a serpent they turn around and spew more poison and then say "Of coarse Paul tells us in Romans 9-11 God still has plans for ISRAEL, as was always promised in the OT. Jacob was not PICKED for salvation, but SERVICE."

Service? What service? verses 11 clearly speaks about election and up to that point of Romans 9, Paul have been teaching about grace through faith that a sinner will be saved from Romans 1 to 8!
---christan on 3/11/12


Kathr says,

"Sorry Calvinists, but scripture CLEARLY tells us if we BELIEVE in THIS JESUS, the one who died for our sin, and the one God raised from the dead, thou shall be saved."

As if it was that simple for a lost person to believe in Jesus, first, "Why didn't you believe by faith when you came to Christ?" You say it simple, and you didn't have it. You admitted that with your own words. You thought by coming to Christ with no faith you would later get it, but guess what, you haven't got it yet, for you reject the Truth of God's Word everyday.
---Mark_V. on 3/11/12


Romans 9-11 is not about GENTILES but Jews, God chose Jacob over Esau. Both were Isaac's sons, and one or the other was to be given the privledge of the lineage to bring forth Jesus Christ.


Of coarse Paul tells us in Romans 9-11 God still has plans for ISRAEL, as was always promised in the OT.

Jacob was not PICKED for salvation, but SERVICE.

What are God's furture plans for Israel?

Read Isaiah 14:1, Ezeliel 36, Zechariah 12-14, Acts 1:6,7 AND 11...don't forget verse 11. Zechariah 12-14 will be fulfilled as the Angels reiterated in Acts 1:11.


AND the wind didn't BLOW at will choosing Jacob either.

Your scriptures are a hodge podge nonsense!
---kathr4453 on 3/11/12


"Why are you using OT scriptures having NOTHING to do with the Gospel message of salvation..."

Let's see, Paul was NT, wrote about it in Romans quoting from the OT. So, what you are saying that what Paul quotes from the OT has nothing to do with the Gospel? Jesus many times quoted from the OT too. So, Jesus and Paul were teaching lies, according to your understanding, right?

What Paul taught confirms the kind of gospel you propagate nothing but lies and foolishness. The doctrine of Jacob and Esau taught by Paul is clear as daylight that salvation is through the election of God only. Clearly only teaching salvation by grace.

You don't divide but you chop up the Holy Bible into bits 'n pieces.
---christan on 3/10/12


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"Would a "kind" God create a man with the sole purpose of hurling him into sin just so he could burn him in the lake of fire for eternity."

A SOVEREIGN GOD!

It's written: "But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." Psalm 115:3

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" Romans 9:13,14,21

You have a problem with these written Scriptures in the Bible? Then your problem is with God, not those who bring forth His words of Truth.
---christan on 3/10/12


Well, lets be clear here again, WHO was teaching the doctrines of men...????? Gentiles?

Do you know how to rightly divide the truth christan? What was said to Israel at a time of THEIR disobedience, and also being God's elect chosen people DOES NOT apply to all men everywhere as some fact that applies to Gentiles today, or even Jews today .

Why are you using OT scriptures having NOTHING to do with the Gospel message of salvation and apply it as if YOU are not included on one hand, yet everyone else is included even Gentiles? The subject was not about the GOSPEL, but RESPONSIBILITY as God's Chosen people.
---kathr4453 on 3/10/12


"IF You believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead THOU SHALL BE SAVED!"

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:6

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:11,12

"According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world... Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." Ephesians 1:3,4
---christan on 3/10/12


"IF You believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead THOU SHALL BE SAVED!"

"A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven." John 3:27

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Romans 9:11,13

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." John 6:44,65
---christan on 3/10/12


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Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness...

They do alway err in their heart, and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest)

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in DEPARTING from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin


You have been lied to.
---JackB on 3/10/12


That scripture does not say believers there. (shakes head)

ALL you want anyone to believe is that God does not love everyone and that He loves YOU with a special kind of love that he isnt willing to give everyone. You are stuck on yourself and it is blinding you. That my friend is not a meek and lowly heart. Jesus Christ was meek and lowly and he and the Father are one! God is love. He is not proud, nor self-seeking. He is kind. (1 Cor 13

Would a "kind" God create a man with the sole purpose of hurling him into sin just so he could burn him in the lake of fire for eternity. (Ezekiel 18:23)

You have been well indoctrinated MarkV, but I'm sorry to say that you do not know God. You are both in my prayers.
---JackB on 3/10/12


"No one has argued that fact. We simply believe the Father draws ALL men to his Son by the Holy Spirit, and some men resist."

"Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man, but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man."
Matthew 15:7-11
---christan on 3/10/12


"No one has argued that fact. We simply believe the Father draws ALL men to his Son by the Holy Spirit, and some men resist"

"And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." Acts 9:5

"Fear doesnt convert a heart. Love does."

"And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do." Acts 9:6

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction." Proverbs 1:7
---christan on 3/10/12


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Acts 13:32-34
32And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,

33God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again, as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

34And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

All this was promised in the OT.

500+ Witnessed the resurrection of Jesus Christ and walked with Him before He ascended into Heaven.

IF You believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead THOU SHALL BE SAVED!
---kathr4453 on 3/10/12


Sorry Calvinists, but scripture CLEARLY tells us if we BELIEVE in THIS JESUS, the one who died for our sin, and the one God raised from the dead, thou shall be saved.

Mohammad can't save you, ceasar can't save you,Buddhism can't save you, ONLY JESUS CAN SAVE YOU.

AND you cannot save yourself by the law or good works.

FAITH is NOT of WORKS, praise God, so FAITH is not a WORK one is accused of saving himself by.



---kathr4453 on 3/10/12


1 John 2:24 "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father."
Acts 13:43 "Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God."

John, Paul and Barnabas concord with Kath and Jack for sure.
---Nana on 3/10/12


Too easy: Become a JW, do good works, submit to the leadership's authority and you'll be saved.

''Jehovah's using only one organisation today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we MUST identify that organisation and serve God as part of it.'' (The Watchtower, 2/15/83, p. 12)
---Marc on 3/10/12


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Jack B, as you can see sometimes you do know the Truth you just want to argue that you have free will. Here is what you said,

"Fear doesnt convert a heart. Love does."

That is nothing but the Truth. It is God who converts the heart, for God is Love. For Scripture does say, "But God who is rich in mercy, "because of His great love with which He loved us (believers)" even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)"

Fear doesn't convert anyone.
---Mark_V. on 3/10/12


Jack 2: you reject the message, like Israel. You gave,
(Acts 7:51) Stephen was referring to stiff-necked Israel rejecting the Spirits messengers and their message (v.51) We know it was the message they rejected by (v.52)
"Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers"

You twisted the passage, turned it to give the idea that a creater of God, a sinner, has more power then God. Here is God on one side Drawing you, and you are on the other side rejecting, and you win. You have defeated Almighty God. A defeated God is not God. In your heart He is, so long as you are in control.
---Mark_V. on 3/10/12


The rest of that verse also says, ALL WHO ARE TAUGHT OF THE FATHER COME TO ME.

So that narrows it down even more.

So FIRST, one is taught of the Father.

So we see clearly, those who's IQ's are 100 or over that FAITH in God's SON were first taught of the Father that THERE WOULD BE a SON to Begin with...The promised messiah...taught in the OT. WE were taught He would be born of a Virgin. We are also taught where he would be born and so on...so we know WHO is the TRUE CHRIST according to what we have been TAUGHT of the Father.

DAHHHHAH!

Now let's all be careful because there are many anti-Christs out there, who if you are not TAUGHT of God His truth you will follow a false christ AKA the anti-Christ.
---kathr4453 on 3/10/12


I was sinking deep in sin, far from the peaceful shore
Very deeply stained within, sinking to rise no more
But the Master of the sea, heard my despairing cry
From the waters lifted me, now safe am I

Love lifted me! Love lifted me!
When nothing else could help
Love lifted me!

All my heart to Him I give, ever to Him I'll cling
In His blessed presence live, ever His praises sing
Love so mighty and so true, merits my soul's best songs
Faithful, loving service too, to Him belongs

Souls in danger look above, Jesus completely saves
He will lift you by His love, out of the angry waves
He's the Master of the sea, billows His will obey
He your Savior wants to be, be saved today.
---kathr4453 on 3/10/12


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I love to tell the story
Of unseen things above
Of Jesus and his glory
Of Jesus and his love
I love to tell the story
Because I know 'tis true
It satisfies my longings
As nothing else can do

I love to tell the story
Twill be my theme in glory
To tell the old, old story
Of Jesus and his love

I love to tell the story
For those who know it best
Seem hungering and thirsting
To hear it like the rest
And when, in scenes of glory
I sing the new, new song
Twill be the old, old story
That I have loved so long

I love to tell the story
'twill be my theme in glory
To tell the old, old story
Of Jesus and his love
---kathr4453 on 3/10/12


"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him---Christan

Noone has argued that fact. We simply believe the Father draws ALL men to his Son by the Holy Spirit, and some men resist (Acts 7:51)

Do you think our Creator is so unlovable that He has to FORCE people to love him?

"They received not the love of the truth that they might be saved" so God sent them delusion. Anyone under delusion naturally thinks they arent, right? Youve already said that a god such as the one we see believe in is "weak and powerless". A foolish thing to say. How do you know YOU arent under delusion now for rejecting him?
---JackB on 3/9/12


"However If I say to you, "don't play in the street", a MORON would play in the street all the while saying "don't play in the street"."

Based on your analysis of a "Moron", guess that makes you king of all "Morons".

Here's why: Jesus said, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." You will say, "No, the man can use his free-will to go to Christ. He does not need God to draw him first."

Paul said, the man is "dead in sins and trespasses" but you will say, "dead does not mean dead because the man has his free-will to choose Christ"
---christan on 3/9/12


Clearly that is what we see too often from Adventists and other cults as they habitually quote scripture either out of context and ignore the plain meaning of other scripture. Galatians for instance, is rarely studied in Adventism as they still believe in the Mt. Sinai laws (4:24f)
---lee1538 on 3/9/12
See shrink SOON you are obsessed with SDA
---francis on 3/9/12


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BCV = book, chapter and verse.

All too often scripture is not interpreted in the light of other scripture and this is largely due to the training as provided by our competitive religious establishments. They do have a very vested interest in promoting what they want you to believe.

Clearly that is what we see too often from Adventists and other cults as they habitually quote scripture either out of context and ignore the plain meaning of other scripture. Galatians for instance, is rarely studied in Adventism as they still believe in the Mt. Sinai laws (4:24f)
---lee1538 on 3/9/12


So you see christan, since you are under teh delusion that you HAVE HOLY pearls, also believing we are all swine and dogs, WHY then are you throwing your imaginary holy pearls before us?

YOU have been instructed NO TO DO THAT....nothing about QUOTING Jesus before us.

So you are in disobedience to your own imaginary delusions.

STOP standing on the street corner like some dirty faced snotty nose kid sticking your tongue out at everyone.
---kathr4453 on 3/9/12


According to the Scriptures, did God save the sinner while he was "drowning and calling for help" or the sinner was "dead in sins and trespasses"? What does Scripture really say?

---christan on 3/5/12

what B C and V are these from?
---francis on 3/9/12


Is Jesus Christ also a Mormon then because He said those words to His disciples? According to you, He should be. And that's because you call me a Mormon for quoting what Christ said.

"It's really hard to tell the difference between Calvinismm and Mormonism."

That's because you are void of wisdom from God that you can't separate them.
---christan on 3/9/12

no Christan , Jesus was not a MORON for instructing His desciples of what to and what not to do. However If I say to you, "don't play in the street", a MORON would play in the street all the while saying "don't play in the street". you see MORONS don't grasp and UNDERSTAND words, they can only recite them.!
---kathr4453 on 3/9/12


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"I rebuked him over several times that ONLY CULTS use that verse as a curse against others."

Those were the very words that came from the mouth of Jesus Christ for people like you and your cohorts. By your account, Jesus Christ is a cult since He told us not to throw pearls to swines, right?

Is Jesus Christ also a Mormon then because He said those words to His disciples? According to you, He should be. And that's because you call me a Mormon for quoting what Christ said.

"It's really hard to tell the difference between Calvinismm and Mormonism."

That's because you are void of wisdom from God that you can't separate them.
---christan on 3/9/12


"And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory." Isaiah 6:3 - I wonder why the angels didn't say "Love, love, love"?

"I am the LORD your God, consecrate yourselves and be Holy, because I am Holy." Leviticus 11:44 - I wonder why God didn't say "be loving for I am loving"?

"Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:28,29 - I wonder why the writer of Hebrews didn't say "our God will consume you with love"?
---christan on 3/9/12


I know JackB, and christan has used THOSE verses on many others here too of which I rebuked him over several times that ONLY CULTS use that verse as a curse against others.

It's so laughable and so obvious to all SAVED and Born Again Spirit filled Christians that no Christian curses another under any circumstances.

Mormons DO love that verse!! That's why I really believe these are Mormons. Elect Angels...not MEN! MarkV too clarified that too when he said "NO MAN" came to the Light. So what are they then if not men?? Angel spirits who preexisted before the foundation of the world...It's really hard to tell the difference between Calvinismm and Mormonism.
---kathr4453 on 3/9/12


JackB, what is even more amazing about christan and that verse is, if they REALLY believed it, they would OBEY IT, not use it as a weapon anc curse against anyone. It's BECAUSE they don't understand the true menaing of the verse in the first place that they so miss-use it.

Whwew did Jesus ever SAY..."hay guys, if anyone disagrees with you USE THIS VERSE AGAINST THEM"...Never.

It shows so clearly how MORONIC they are and their beliefs that activate their behavior.

And they want us all to believe they are SOOOO intelligent.





---kathr4453 on 3/9/12


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"I think a Mormon used them on me when he realized he couldnt convert me to Mormonism. Didnt work for him either.

Why didn't it worked? Because you're already one in the spirit with them! The Mormons and all the religions of the world worship the same god you worship, your god of "free-will". Which doesn't even exist. It's a delusion or as Scripture declares, deception.

"and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
---christan on 3/9/12


Oh no Kathr! He used THOSE verses! Now where have I seen those before? hmmmm... Oh yeah - I think a Mormon used them on me when he realized he couldnt convert me to Mormonism. Didnt work for him either.

Fear doesnt convert a heart. Love does.

I have a dare for you Christan. I dare you to watch "What Love Is This" on the internet. Now lets see if you are grounded well enough in your heresy to withstand the common sense that God gave everyone. Go to it!
---JackB on 3/8/12


"In John 3:16 it must mean the Elect, and in Revelations it appears the Elect take the mark of the beast. Let's see how one wiggles out of that!" GEE WIZ, we all could have some FUN with that mentality!

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." Matthew 7:6

"How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? The lips of the righteous feed many: but fools die for want of wisdom. The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness." Proverbs 1:22, 10:22, 15:2
---christan on 3/8/12


Actually Mark that was addressed to Christan....

Get your names a little confused there?

The point is YES, God is completely sovereign. He can do whatever he wants to. I hope we are over that point now. But does he? What does LOVE do with its creation? Love is kind. Love doesnt create life with the intention of burning most of it for eternity? Does that really sound like love to you, MarkV? Open your heart

If God asked you today "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked?" (Eze 18:23) Would you respond "Well of course! You predestine them to go to hell!"?

I hope you are not so foolish.
---JackB on 3/8/12


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So, "Every Man" and "every one" means two totally different things?

One must have at least 2-3 scriptures to PROVE that Every man means one thing and EveryONE means the elect?

No such scripture exists. Only in the minds of those who FOOL AROUND with God's WORD, making it say what THEY want it to say.

So "whosoever" means what?

In John 3:16 it must mean the Elect, and in Revelations it appears the Elect take the mark of the beast.


Let's see how one wiggles out of that!


GEE WIZ, we all could have some FUN with that mentality!
---kathr4453 on 3/8/12


"Would you also consider it "total stupidity" when someone claims that "every man" does not mean "EVERY man" or "the whole world" does not mean "the WHOLE world"?" JackB

That's because it's written that not "EVERYman" but only the "elect" (everyone) of God will be saved. Yet you continue to say God wants to save "EVERYman". See the difference? That's stupidity isn't it? Or as Scripture says, foolish and the wicked.

If God wanted to save "EVERYman", do you not think He has the power to do it? Maybe your god can't, my God sure can. But He isn't going to save "EVERYman" as declared.
---christan on 3/8/12


Jack B, you get angry with my answer, and with it, you try to confuse the word of God because you are angry, otherwise you would not be answering me, you feel cheated. You want to have something to do with your salvation. You cannot stand for anyone to tell you that God is the originator of your salvation and that without Him you can do nothing. That frighten's you, because you have believed a lie all your life. And you don't want to admit it. It's hard for you to give the whole glory to God. That is not what you were taught. So you fight for your rights, your own free will. I totally understand. You are not alone, remember "wide is the gate and broard is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it"
---Mark_V. on 3/8/12


Jesus didnt die for the man calling for help, HE died for all men, it was GODS CHOICE. Now it is mankinds choice to believe in what God has already done.
God reconciled the world to HIMSELF through Christ, not counting mens sins against them. His death took care of sin but now men also need life and that is attained through HIS resurrected life which we receive through faith in HIM.
---duane on 3/8/12


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You Calvinists are so full of love. Its just oooozing from you.
---Blogger_9680 on 3/7/12


MarkV, I agree with your post and the Scriptures that came along with it. What I find rather amusing and up to a point of total stupidity is when someone says, "dead does not mean dead"---Christan

Would you also consider it "total stupidity" when someone claims that "every man" does not mean "EVERY man" or "the whole world" does not mean "the WHOLE world"?
---JackB on 3/7/12


Isaiah 1:16_18 "Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes, cease to do evil,
Learn to do well, seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."


Mathew 11:28_30 "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
---Nana on 3/7/12


MarkV, I agree with your post and the Scriptures that came along with it. What I find rather amusing and up to a point of total stupidity is when someone says, "dead does not mean dead". What's that supposed to even mean? And mind you, these are people who claim to be "Christians" and they talk like fools, which is definitely not an attribute of a Christian.

And how does the "dead" even "met with Jesus and submitted to Him" and "God made us alive"? Which is first? Isn't it supposed to be that "God made us alive" while we were dead that we may go to Christ?

Salvation according to Paul is systematic as taught in his Epistles.
---christan on 3/7/12


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Christan, some Christians don't want to hear the answer, because when they are told they had no involvement in their salvation, some feel cheated to the point of getting angry for been told. But dead means dead. No one is drowing and still reaching out for help with their last breath. That's man talking not God.
God says,
1. no one seeks for God. no one understands. They are under the power of sin, no one is righteous, no not one. (Rom. 3:9-12).
2. no one can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him. (John 6:44).
3. Who can say, "I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sins? (Prov. 20:9).
4. And you He made alive, when you were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once walked.."
---Mark_V. on 3/7/12


Well, Christan, Paul does say we "were dead in trespasses and sins," in Ephesians 2:1. So, I can see someone's point that if I am dead I am not calling for help. But while we were dead in sinning, we were very active. We were love-dead, our arguing was joy-dead and anti-love . . . etc.

So, we weren't "drowning", but already dead and fully in it. And Jesus came to the cross to meet us. And this is personal . . . not only a theoretical thing, but we met with Jesus and submitted to Him. And God "made us alive" (Ephesians 2:5) so now we are loving Him and obeying how He rules us in His peace (Colossians 3:15). We did not with a sinful heart choose this.
---Bill_willa6989 on 3/5/12


"My sin I made you know, and my crookedness I have not covered. I said, I will confess up to my disobedience to Yhwh, and you took away the punishment of my sin. Exalt. Seek you all Yhwh while he may be found, call you all upon him while he is near. And you all will seek me and find, when you all will search for me with all your heart. Ask, and it will be given to you: seek, and you all will find: knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one that asks receives: and the one that seeks finds: and to the one that knocks it will be opened. Pretend then you all err, really knowing good gifts to give to your children, how much more will heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"
---Eloy on 3/5/12


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