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Moral Versus Ceremonial Law

If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, why does the "law of God" command animal sacrifices Lk 2:23-24 and the "law of the Lord" contains burnt offerings 2 Chron 31:3, 1 Chron 16:40?

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 ---lee1538 on 3/5/12
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A covenant is much like a last will and testament, only the last revision is valid. However, there can be some things in the new will that is also in the old.

And we can say the same with the New Covenant.

As to what day we must observe, the only thing we see in the New Covenant is Romans 14:5-6 that we may or may not observe any day as holy.
---lee1538 on 3/13/12

ALL the ten commandments are found within the New Testament and COMMANDED of Christians except the Sabbath commandment.
---leej on 7/14/10

So If i understand you correctly, the only part of the ten commandment covenant that is obsolete is the commandment about the sabbath.

New covenant is now the 9 commandments?
---francis on 3/13/12


John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
---lee1538 on 3/13/12

SORRY LEEJ, the ten commandments was NOT given through moses

Deuteronomy 4:13 And HE DECLARED unto you his covenant, which HE COMMANDED you to perform, even ten commandments, and HE WROTE them upon two tables of stone.

Deuteronomy 10:4 And HE WROTE on the tables,..the ten commandments, which the LORD SPAKE UNTO YOU..and the LORD gave them unto me.

Deuteronomy 5:22 These words the LORD SPAKE unto all your assembly.. with a great voice: And HE WROTE THEM in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

John must have been talking about ANOTHER LAW.
---francis on 3/13/12


>As to what day we must observe, the only thing we see in the New Covenant is Romans 14:5-6 that we may or may not observe any day as holy.

At least as late as the 5th century, most Christians around the Med were keeping the Sabbath. In India they did so till around the 1540's and in Ethiopia they did so till around 1600.
---David_J._Conklin on 3/13/12


//If the ten commandments is the old covenant, and it is obsolete, why then would any of it be commanded in the NT.

Did I say the 10 commandments were obsolete or did I say the COVENANT that is the 10 commandments became obsolete?

Scripture affirms the latter in Hebrews 8.

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

A covenant is much like a last will and testament, only the last revision is valid. However, there can be some things in the new will that is also in the old.

And we can say the same with the New Covenant.

As to what day we must observe, the only thing we see in the New Covenant is Romans 14:5-6 that we may or may not observe any day as holy.
---lee1538 on 3/13/12


Francis//You are so obsessed with SDA you do not even realize that you are contradicting yourself, nor do you even realize that love thy neighbour is OT scripture
---
You are like Francis the talking Mule in that you simply are too stubborn to accept the fact that the Old Covenant became obsolete and was replaced by a New Covenant.

Being a legalist much liken to the old Pharisees of Christ day, your obsession is with Jewish Sabbath observance.

However there is not such command for His church. If there were we would certain see something in the Epistles as well as taught in the early church but we do not.
---lee1538 on 3/13/12




Hebrews 8:13 speaks of the covenant that became obsolete, and that was the 10 commandment covenant.
---lee1538 on 3/13/12
ALL the ten commandments are found within the New Testament and COMMANDED of Christians except the Sabbath commandment.
---leej on 7/14/10
And according the Scripture, the ten commandment covenant became obsolete
---lee1538 on 3/3/12

If the ten commandments is the old covenant, and it is obsolete, why then would any of it be commanded in the NT

Leviticus 19:18 thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself:

You are so obsessed with SDA you do not even realize that you are contradicting yourself, nor do you even realize that love thy neighbour is OT scripture
---francis on 3/13/12


Jerry boy //What then is the new covenant "law" that is written on the heart (Heb 8:10), but the totality of OT law that you abhor?

What has been written on believers hearts is really the essence of the OT law, namely that which would fulfill the law - love of neighbor.

We can easily see that from that verse you abhor - Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

All too often what the Bible really teaches is contrary to what Adventists want to believe and that is why you legalists have such terrible problems with Chritians.
---lee1538 on 3/13/12


Hebrews 8:13 speaks of the covenant that became obsolete, and that was the 10 commandment covenant replaced by the ministry of the Spirit.

As far as I am concerned my doctrinal views are in the middle of the bullseye.
---lee1538 on 3/13/12
ALL the ten commandments are found within the New Testament and commanded of Christians except the Sabbath commandment.
---leej on 7/14/10

And according the Scripture, the ten commandment covenant became obsolete with the decline of the temple worship system.
---lee1538 on 3/3/12

If the ten commandments is the old covenant, and it is obsolete, why then would any of it be commanded in the NT?
---francis on 3/13/12


\\If there are no divisions in the law, then all law is inextricably tied together and inseparable.\\

BINGO!

You're catching on, jerry!

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/13/12


francis//Would you like to take some time to gather your thoughts and reconsile you doctrine?
---
Unnecessary since the first comment states that the other commandments in Romans 13 include the rest of the Decalogue.

Hebrews 8:13 speaks of the covenant that became obsolete, and that was the 10 commandment covenant replaced by the ministry of the Spirit.

And no one has yet to find any command to observe the Sabbath in the New Covenant though it is not forbidden.

As far as I am concerned my doctrinal views are in the middle of the bullseye.
---lee1538 on 3/13/12




Since the primary listing is from the 10 commandments there is really no other conclusion that can be made except the 'other commandment' would have to include those that were not listed.
---lee1538 on 3/12/12

ALL the ten commandments are found within the New Testament and commanded of Christians except the Sabbath commandment.
---leej on 7/14/10

And according the Scripture, the ten commandment covenant became obsolete with the decline of the temple worship system.
---lee1538 on 3/3/12

Would you like to take some time to gather your thoughts and reconsile you doctrine?
---francis on 3/13/12


Cluny: "jerry, if there is no division into "moral" and "ceremonial" laws, there are no other divisions, either. Such are all man-made."

No wonder you are so confused when you read the writings of Paul. Try to think logically a minute. If there are no divisions in the law, then all law is inextricably tied together and inseparable. What then is the new covenant "law" that is written on the heart (Heb 8:10), but the totality of OT law that you abhor? Are you comfortable with that?



---jerry6593 on 3/13/12


//The phrase "and any other commandment" after listing several of the 10 commandments, would also include the commandments you mentioned
===
Since the primary listing is from the 10 commandments there is really no other conclusion that can be made except the 'other commandment' would have to include those that were not listed.

Francis, why don't you just agree with the truth and be done with it?

Has Adventism really disemboweled your brain to the point you cannot see what is clearly stated?

Or is it part of your fear to question anything your denomination teaches?
---lee1538 on 3/12/12


"Red meat boosts risk of dying young: study
Search the web.
---David_J._Conklin on 3/12/12


//The laws of the Bible may be grouped into four categories: Moral, Ceremonial, Health and Civil.

That one is a health law.
----
Did Ellen White overrule what the Scripture teaches on this topic?

1Co 8:8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do.

Jerry boy it is simply too easy to prove that eating Levitical foods do not harm our bodies.

Cook properly 500 beef steaks and 500 pork chops and feed them to normally healthly people. How many that eat the pork will become sick? If you guess NONE, you got the right answer.

And that should prove that foods properly prepared will NOT harm our bodies.
---lee1538 on 3/12/12


I see no mention of moral and ceremonial law in the Bible.

I do see, many laws in the Bible.

There is the law of the Lord Ex. 3:9, of burnt offering Le. 6:9, of Grain offering 6:14, of Sin offering 6:25, of guilt offering 7:1, of peace offering 7:11,of the leprous 14:2, of the Nazirite Nu. 6:21,of God Jos. 24:26, of Moses Jos. 8:31, of the LORD 2 kings 10:31, of the Jews Acts 25:8, of faith and works Rom. 3:27, of marriage 7:2,of sin 7:25, of the Spirit 8:2, and of the law of Christ Gal. 6:2.

And in some of these, we would be hard pressed to find any clear differentiation, let alone making a determination what is moral and ceremonial and civic and health laws.

Live by faith, not by law. Romans 1:17, Gal. 3:11
---lee1538 on 3/12/12


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The phrase "and any other commandment" after listing several of the 10 commandments, would also include the commandments you mentioned.
---lee1538 on 3/12/12
TRICK QUESTION:
So are you saying that they would include
1: Havingonly one God ( Jehovah)
2: not making graven inages to worship
3: not taking God's name in vain
4: Keeping the sabbath day holy
5: Honouring your father and mother

N.B. TRICK QUESTION
---francis on 3/12/12


//CLUNY all sin is aviolation of MORAL LAW
When God commands us to do, or not do something, and we go against God's word, we then make ourselves god
---francis

//Cluny - So.... your not offering of sin sacrifices or tithes of your produce means you're breaking moral laws, right?

===
We need to inform Francis there is a law that prohibits the sabbath keeper from lighting a fire in his home on the sabbath.

Exodus 35:3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

Sin is sin is sin is sin francis and God will eventually get angry with you and you may even end up with that rich man who went to hell. Luke 16

But to think of it, you may be in the company of olde Ellen White.
---lee1538 on 3/12/12


Francis - does Romans 13:9-10 really say there is "nothing about worship one God, nothing about not taking God's name in vain,nothing about not making images to worship, ..."?

Try reading those verses w/o the SDA blinders on!

The phrase "and any other commandment" after listing several of the 10 commandments, would also include the commandments you mentioned.

The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, not murder, not steal, not covet, and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

You are a descendent of a movement with a history of mass hysteria -recall 1847, you should get HELP AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. Your religion has driven you crazy.
---lee1538 on 3/12/12


\\CLUNY all sin is aviolation of MORAL LAW
When God commands us to do, or not do something, and we go against God's word, we then make ourselves god
---francis on 3/12/12\\

So.... your not offering of sin sacrifices or tithes of your produce means you're breaking moral laws, right?

jerry, if there is no division into "moral" and "ceremonial" laws, there are no other divisions, either. Such are all man-made.

The Bible speaks only of The Law.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/12/12


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Cluny: "Is abstinence from pork a moral or a ceremonial law?"

I'll answer your question. It is neither. The laws of the Bible may be grouped into four categories: Moral, Ceremonial, Health and Civil.

That one is a health law.

Why do you ask? Do you intend to begin obeying it?


---jerry6593 on 3/12/12


And Francis, we show love towards God by how we treat our neighbors.

Mt. 25:40b Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
---lee1538 on 3/11/12
LOL LOL LOL
So nothing about worship one God
nothing about not taking God's name in vain
nothng about not making images to worship
and surely nothing about worshiping God as creater

OBS$SSIVE and IN DENIAL
GET HELP SOON

CLUNY all sin is aviolation of MORAL LAW
When God commands us to do, or not do something, and we go against God's word, we then make ourselves god
---francis on 3/12/12


francis, you've not answered my question, so I will repeat it here.

Is abstinence from pork a moral or a ceremonial law?

If a moral law, where is it mentioned in the Ten Commandments or identified elsewhere as such?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/11/12


Jerry //Anyone that is able to read would be able to see that the Holy Sabbath was instituted long before the time of Moses. God said so Himself! Of course, if you don't believe God......

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
=====
Exodus 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Did you do the straw or the mud in building those bricks while a slave in Egypt?

And jerry were you circumcised as a baby by the rabbi, or did you convert and then have to drop your panties?

You never question the things you were taught and that is why you are still in spiritual darkness.
---lee1538 on 3/11/12


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francis//I can clearly see moral obligation to our neighbour, but nothing is mentioned about God.

Matthew 22:37 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God
====
We do not have to be taught to love God. He has forgiven us much and provided for us abundantly.

Luke 7:42 When they could not pay, he cancelled the debt of both. Now which of them will love him more?

And Francis, we show love towards God by how we treat our neighbors.

Mt. 25:40b Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
---lee1538 on 3/11/12


--lee1538 on 3/11/12
Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

What part of this talk about God or more specifically or duty or moral obligation to God?

I can clearly see moral obligation to our neighbour, but nothing is mentioned about God.

Matthew 22:37 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God

Matthew 22:39 Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
---francis on 3/11/12


We think of moral law as laws that affect the rights and welfare of other humans, what is right and wrong behavior.

//Do human beings have any moral obligation to God?
Yes indeed!
---lee1538 on 3/11/12
So we are in agreement we have a moral obligation to God and other humans.

Can we then agree to define moral laws as: Laws that that affect the rights and welfare of other humans, AND GOD, what is right and wrong behavior?
---francis on 3/11/12


francis //So tell us, how do people make a distintion between moral law and ceremonial law?
---
The distinction is NOT made in the Bible but as you stated is really a man-made distinction.

We think of moral law as laws that affect the rights and welfare of other humans, what is right and wrong behavior.

Ceremonial laws are those that involve formalized ritual observances such as we see them in our religious or secular traditions.

//Do human beings have any moral obligation to God?

Yes indeed! And we see that in Romans 13:9-10. If we do that we fulfill the law as required by God.
---lee1538 on 3/11/12


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---lee1538 on 3/11/12

It is your blog question
So tell us, how do people make a distintion between moral law and ceremonial law?

Do human beings have any moral obligation to God?
---francis on 3/11/12


Anyone that is able to read would be able to see that the Holy Sabbath was instituted long before the time of Moses. God said so Himself! Of course, if you don't believe God......

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


---jerry6593 on 3/11/12


Francis //There are many words and phrases in the Christian vocabulary which are not found in the bible and are precepts of men.

Thank you very much for stating that. We can then say that any differentiation as to types of law is merely "precepts of men".

In that case, one is justified in viewing the Jewish Sabbath as a ceremonial law and not a moral law.

I, for one, would view moral law as pertaining more to human relationships and something that is inherent in our very nature, not something that has to be learned as is the observance of the Jewish Sabbath.
---lee1538 on 3/11/12


It's merely a tradition and precept of men.
---Cluny on 3/10/12

There are many words and phrases in the christian vocabulary whcih are not found in the bible and are precepts of men

examples include, but are not limited to:
1: Sacraments
2: Eucharist
3: Lent
4: Ash Wednesday
5: Trinity
6: Rapture
7: Slain in the spirit
8: Transubstantiation

Thereis nothing wrong with understanding the origins of these word and phrases as used in christianity.
So It should come as no suprise to one as wise as you and leej, that people also understand the origins of the phrases Moral and ceremonial law
---francis on 3/10/12


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Saying the Decalogue is the moral law and the rest are ceremonial laws is NOT a distinction the Bible makes, francis.

It's merely a tradition and precept of men.
---Cluny on 3/10/12

You do have a point here.

The bible does not mention the phrases moral law and ceremonial law. Those phrases however are very common in christainity.
The bible uses the phrase LAW OF GOD or COMMANDMENTS OF GOD to speak about the ten commandments commanded directly by God,and writen by the finger of God on tablets of stone, and uses the phrease LAW OF MOSES to distinguish the law was was taught by Moses and written down by Moses in a book
---francis on 3/10/12


Saying the Decalogue is the moral law and the rest are ceremonial laws is NOT a distinction the Bible makes, francis.

It's merely a tradition and precept of men.

Say it over and over and over, and it STILL won't be so.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/10/12


Totally an argument from silence! Anyone that is able to read would be able to see that the Jewish Sabbath was not even heard of prior to the time of Moses....
***********

LOL the foolish Lee strikes again!!!

I guess Lee hopes his arrogant wickedness of calling GODS HOLY SABBATH a "jewish sabbath" makes all his lies more sellable

FACT is Holy Scripture NEVER refers to GODS HOLY SABBATH DAY as a "jewish sabbath"

Lee HATES GOD and his righteousness which is why Lee teaches AGAINST Christ and the Apostles by teaching and preaching a license to sin and WHY Lee HATES GODS HOLY SABBATH DAY

True Believers understand GODS HOLY SABBATH DAY is forever
---Rhonda on 3/10/12


//In other words, you cannot come up with a Biblical citation that supports your man-made distinction between "moral" and "ceremonial" laws.

yes, even if we scroll down we can easily see that Francis (and all any other Adventists), are unable to point to anything in the Bible that distinguishes moral from ceremonial laws. However, they must make a distinction in order to get the Word of God to fit their doctrinal viewpoints.

While they yell and holler that the Sabbath is a moral law, they cannot explain Romans 2:14 which states that Gentiles who did not have the law by nature did what the law required.

And they may not know it, but Gentiles did NOT observe the Sabbath - something only Jews did.
---lee1538 on 3/10/12


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francis, is not eating pork--of which you make an issue--a moral or a ceremonial law?

If it is a moral law, where it it listed in the Decalogue?

If not eating pork is a moral law NOT in the Decalogue, where does the Bible identify it as a moral law?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/10/12


---Cluny on 3/10/12
why should i repost the same thing over and over again in the same blog? I have already posted them can you not scroll down?
---francis on 3/10/12


\\Go back to the start of the post see ALL the texts I have posted
---francis \\

In other words, you cannot come up with a Biblical citation that supports your man-made distinction between "moral" and "ceremonial" laws.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/10/12


David_J._Conklin//Not if they wandered away from the truth--otoh, the name for the seventh day of the week is "sabbath" in over 100 langauges.
---
Totally an argument from silence! Anyone that is able to read would be able to see that the Jewish Sabbath was not even heard of prior to the time of Moses.

And to believe that there was a 7 day week prior to Moses is against everything we know about calendars. The Egyptians and the Babylonians for instance, had a 10 day week calendar. And calendars were continually adjusted to fit the seasons.
---lee1538 on 3/9/12


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\\Francis//...the Ten Commandments is the Moral Law.\\

Please give BCV that make a distinction between the "moral law" and "ceremonial law," francis.
---Cluny on 3/9/12

Go back to the start of the post see ALL the texts I have posted
---francis on 3/9/12


>If ALL the 10 commandments were moral laws then we would expect to have seen the Gentile non-believers by their innate nature to recognize them as such, especially the Sabbath commandment.

Not if they wandered away from the truth--otoh, the name for the seventh day of the week is "sabbath" in over 100 langauges.
---David_J._Conklin on 3/9/12


francis//How old are you?
---
What really counts is how old I am as far as being a mature Christian. There are some older Christians who are still in their infancy as to their spiritual growth.

A good measure of spiritual growth is how much the Lord has used one in promoting the gospel, in providing for the needs of others, and in leading one more into the truth of His word.

While I could brag about my background - the Apostle Paul did just that in the letter to the Philippians (3:5f), I would also concur with him that one should try to identify with all types of people in reaching others for the gospel.

1Co 9:19f For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them.
---lee1538 on 3/9/12


\\Francis//...the Ten Commandments is the Moral Law.\\

Please give BCV that make a distinction between the "moral law" and "ceremonial law," francis.

I saw on a news report a story about a Hindu man in India. He brings meals to the hungry street people, washes them, cuts their hair, and binds their wounds.

Is he not BY NATURE obeying the Law of Christ in Matthew 25?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/9/12


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Francis//...the Ten Commandments is the Moral Law.

If ALL the 10 commandments were moral laws then we would expect to have seen the Gentile non-believers by their innate nature to recognize them as such, especially the Sabbath commandment.

Romans 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

Gentiles did not observe the Sabbath except when they became proselytes to Judaism.

Man was created in God's image and does have a sense of what constitutes moral law. OTOH, Sabbath observance is something that has to be learned.

There is no logical way one can conclude that the Jewish Sabbath is a moral law.
---lee1538 on 3/9/12


---lee1538 on 3/8/12

So to review: God spoke the ten commandments DIRECTLY to israel then GOD WROTE the ten commandments on two tables of stone and gave them to Moses This is the Moral law. Before God wrote the ten commandments Israel had already heard them DIRECTLY from God

Then God spoke the ceremonial law to Moses, and moses wrote them in a book and Moses taught them to israel. ONLY MOSES heard the ceremonial law directly from God. Israel heard the ceremonial laws DIRECTLY from Moses and not from God.

That is why they are called the law of Moses
Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the statutes and judgments.

How old are you?
---francis on 3/9/12


If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws..?
---lee1538 on 3/5/12
I have answered this with multiple text showing that God spoke The Ten Commandments Himself, and wrote them with his own finger and that the Ten Commandments is the Moral Law

and

God spoke the sanctuary laws directly to moses, and Moses wrote them in a book and taught them to israel.

The distinction between Moral Law and Ceremonial Law is that the Moral law (Ten Commandments) are spoken and writen directly by God, while
the ceremonial law are writen and taught by Moses

My Job here is done, all the text were given for those who are interested in truth rather than pointless debate

thanks for the polite posts
---francis on 3/9/12


Francis //You are wrong again
law given through moses is not ten commandments
---
If I am wrong, then clearly scripture itself is wrong!

Ex 34:28 And he (Moses) was there with the LORD 40 days and 40 nights, he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

The verse states that Moses was the vessel thru which God gave Israel the Decalogue.

In any case, the Christian is to walk in the Spirit by faith not depending on acquiring a righteousness from the law but that which is from Christ. Romans 1:17,3:21,22,5:18, 1 Cor. 1:30, Php. 3:9.

And the Spirit does not require us to observe any day as holy. If you disagree please provide NT BCV.
---lee1538 on 3/8/12


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---lee1538 on 3/8/12
Staying with the topic at hand:

TAUGHT AND WRITEN DIRECTLY BY GOD
Deuteronomy 4:12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude, only ye heard a voice. And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments, and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

GIVEN TO MOSES BY GOD
TAUGHT TO ISRAEL BY MOSES
WRITEN DOWN BY MOSES
Deuteronomy 4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

You are wrong again
law given through moses is not ten commandments
---francis on 3/8/12


//Ceremonial laws are laws given to isarel by God through Moses.

Exodus will tell you God gave ALL the law thru Moses, not just the Decalogue.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

//MORAL LAW are the laws / commandments given directly by God to Usrael. They teach of our MORAL obligation to God, and our MORAL obligation to our neighbour.

And we do fulfill the law by showing love towards our neighbor,not by observing Ash Wednesdays or the Jewish Sabbaths. Romans 13:9-10

//We have a MORAL obligation to acknowledge God as creator of the world, and worship the creator:

True, but as Christians we live by faith, not by legalism. do read Romans 1:17, Gal. 3,11.
---lee1538 on 3/8/12


But you are right in believing that the Sabbath commandment is not a moral law but more like a ceremonial law since it was but a sign of the Old Covenant given only to the Jewish nation. Exodus 31:17
---lee1538 on 3/8/12
Ceremonial laws are laws given to isarel by God through Moses

MORAL LAW are the laws / commandments given directly by God to Usrael. They teach of our MORAL obligation to God, and our MORAL obligation to our neighbour.

We have a MORAL obligation to acknowledge God as creator of the world, and worship the creator:

Revelation 14:7 worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
---francis on 3/8/12


//The Sabbath is in the heart of the 10C's. Thus it is part of the moral law. Note that it points back to Creation--which pre-deated any Jew.

How does an observance become a moral law?

And how can a sign of a covenant be viewed as a moral law?Exodus 31:13

Not convinced!

While the Sabbath pointed back to the rest of God at Creation, Hebrews 4 tells us that those who have come to believe have entered into that rest of God at Creation. So the Sabbath merely prefigured the rest of God believers enter into.

Finally if observance of the Jewish Sabbath was of any importance than why was it not taught in the Epistles or in the early church?

Did the Jerusalem council err in not mandating it? Acts 15.

---lee1538 on 3/8/12


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francis//So the entire sanctuary law acted as a school master teachng us the plan of redeeption until jesus came and carried out the plan Himself.
---
And scripture tells us that "the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified (declared rigtheous) by faith (not by obedience to law). And after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

It is doubtful that any law that is ceremonial can reveal to us any knowledge of sin. What is condemned in the Bible is failure to observe moral law, not ceremonial law.
---lee1538 on 3/8/12


>But you are right in believing that the Sabbath commandment is not a moral law ...

The Sabbath is in the heart of the 10C's. Thus it is part of the moral law. Note also that it points back to Creation--which pre-deated any Jew.

Also in over 100 languages (again long before there ever was a Jew) their name for the 7th day of the week is "sabbath."
---David_J._Conklin on 3/8/12


the law was our schoolmaster or guardian until Christ came,---lee1538 on 3/8/12

The earthly sanctuary schooled us on Hebrews 8:2 the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

The earthly high priest schooled us on Hebrews 3:1 High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus,

Passover lamb schooled us on 1 Corinthians 5:7 Christ our passover

Temple veil school us on Hebrews 10:20 the veil, that is to say, his flesh

blood of goats and bulls schooled us on Hebrews 9:12 JESUS own blood

So the entire sanctuary law acted as a school master teachng us the plan of redeeption until jesus came and carried out the plan Himself.
---francis on 3/8/12


David_J._Conklin//The 10 C's show why we are not righteous, period and why we need Jesus.
---
Does not all the law reveal to us that there is no one righteous and that we all need a savior?

Ro 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Do we really have good reason to believe that sin is only a violation of moral law?

But you are right in believing that the Sabbath commandment is not a moral law but more like a ceremonial law since it was but a sign of the Old Covenant given only to the Jewish nation. Exodus 31:17
---lee1538 on 3/8/12


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francis//Basically, the ceremonial laws are the laws given to Moses by God to teach israel. the include the laws governing the earthly sanctuary including the various cerimonies / feasts of israel.
---
And if you believe what the scripture teaches you would have to agree "the law was our schoolmaster or guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.Gal. 3:24f

And we can all see that there is no qualifier on law as to type, however,there is no argument that moral law is required of us but not for our salvation.
---lee1538 on 3/8/12


Basically, the ceremonial laws are the laws given to Moses by God to teach israel. the include the laws governing the earthly sanctuary including the various cerimonies / feasts of israel.

the Moral Law is the law given to israel directly by God. The Ten commandments
---francis on 3/8/12


You should note that the Law of Moses really in some cases took precedence over the 10 commandments. Do read Mt. 12:5,
---lee1538 on 3/7/12
Matthew 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

Numbers 28:9 And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and the drink offering thereof: This is the burnt offering of every sabbath, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.

All you have managed to do is establish your belief that the LAW OF MOSES is not the TEN COMMANDMENTS
thanks
---francis on 3/8/12


>The 10 commandments are just a sample of the many laws given to the Israelites to show how perfect and holy you must be to be self-righteous.

No one is self-righteous. The 10 C's show why we are not righteous, period and why we need Jesus.
---David_J._Conklin on 3/8/12


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The 10 commandments are just a sample of the many laws given to the Israelites to show how perfect and holy you must be to be self-righteous. 10 is the number of challenge throughout the Bible. The difference between moral law and ceremonial law is that moral laws were given to show how people are to relate to one another. Ceremonial laws were given as a forshadow of things to come. Like sabbath in heaven or Jesus being the ultimate sacrifice.
---Scott1 on 3/8/12


>You should note that the Law of Moses really in some cases took precedence over the 10 commandments. Do read Mt. 12:5, John 7:23f.

Matt. 12 has nothing to do with the Law of Moses. In John 7, if you note the context, it is lawful to do well.
---David_J._Conklin on 3/8/12


//NEVER are the ten commandments called THE LAW OF MOSES.

You should note that the Law of Moses really in some cases took precedence over the 10 commandments. Do read Mt. 12:5, John 7:23f.

And you should note that when they asked Jesus what was the most important commandment in the law, He did not reply with any of the 10 commandments but quoted from the law of Moses.Mt. 22:36f

The law of Moses according to all Bible dictionaries, is the entire legislation delivered to Moses by God.

If God commanded Moses, then is what He commanded of lesser importance than the 10 commandments?
---lee1538 on 3/7/12


lets stay with the question at hand.

Now the law of Moses
Malachi 4:4 law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. ( which as we have seen is a second hand message, from God through moses to israel)iS sometimes called the law of God, or the law of the lord

NEVER are the ten commandments called THE LAW OF MOSES

that is another disctintion
---francis on 3/7/12


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francis//So again we have the same thing. God speaking his 10 commandments directly to Israel, and then other commandments to Moses who would then teach them to Israel
---
There are over 600 laws in the OT alone.

Are all of them applicable to the Christian?

If they are then you would be forced to conclude that the Apostles erred when they decided Gentile converts did not have to become circumcised or observe other OT laws.

In advocating the law, you are really trying to bring Christians under a curse as scripture states "it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."

At least you are consistenly wrong!
---lee1538 on 3/7/12


Deuteronomy 5:22 These words ( THE 10 COMMANDMENTS)the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and HE ADDED NO MORE. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

Deuteronomy 5:31 But as for thee ( MOSES), stand thou here by me (GOD), and I will speak unto thee (MOSES) all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it.

So againt we have the same thing. God speaking his 10 commandments directly to Israel, and then other commandments to Moses who would then teach them to Israel
---francis on 3/7/12


Francis- Was everything that was commanded of Israel also to the church?

Deuteronomy 4:12 And the LORD SPAKE UNTO YOU (the nation of Israel) out of the midst of the fire:YE (Israelites) HEARD THE VOICE of the words, but saw no similitude, only ye (Israelites) heard a voice.

Deuteronomy 4:13 And HE DECLARED UNTO YOU (the nation of Israel) his covenant, which HE COMMANDED YOU (Israel)to perform, even ten commandments, and HE WROTE THEM upon two tables of stone.

God commanded Noah to go build a boat, but are we to do the same?

It is the very same with the olde obsolete covenant Jewish sabbath as it was given ONLY to the nation of Israel. Hebrews 8:13.
---lee1538 on 3/7/12


The same god who gave the 10 commanmdments to Moses.
---lee1538 on 3/6/12


Deuteronomy 4:12 And the LORD SPAKE UNTO YOU out of the midst of the fire:YE HEARD THE VOICE of the words, but saw no similitude, only ye heard a voice.
Deuteronomy 4:13 And HE DECLARED UNTO YOU his covenant, which HE COMMANDED YOU to perform, even ten commandments, and HE WROTE THEM upon two tables of stone

Seems to me that God spoke his Ten commandments directly to the people, and God himself commanded the people, and God wrote them himself with his own finger.

Is that your understanding of these verses? No middle man, just God and the people?
---francis on 3/6/12


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Deuteronomy 4:14 And the LORD COMMANDED MEat that time TO TEACH YOU statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

Now this verse a very different than verses 12 and 13. If verses 12 and 13 it is God speaking direcetly to all the people, and commanding all the people. In verse 14 it is God speaking ONLY TO MOSES, and them moses commanding all the people

Moses in verse 14 acts as a mediator of "statutes and judgments,"( CERIMONIAL LAWS) between God and all the people, where as in verses 12 and 13 God is the mediator between himself and all the people speaking and commanding the Ten commandments( MORAL LAW).

This is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws.
---francis on 3/6/12


//THIS IS THE DISTINCTION GOD ADDED NO MORE
----
John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.

//so who commanded laws about sacrifices?
---
The same god who gave the 10 commanmdments to Moses.

Interesting that the 10 commandments took second place to circumcision (John 7:23) - the rite of entry into the covenant God made only with Israel.

---lee1538 on 3/6/12


Colossians 2:13-14 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Since the record of debt is incurred thru the trespass of the law, no matter what law, our sins were nailed to the Cross.
---lee1538 on 3/6/12


Deuteronomy 5:7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
Deuteronomy 5:8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image,
Deuteronomy 5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain:
Deuteronomy 5:12 Keep the sabbath day
Deuteronomy 5:16 Honour thy father and thy mother, Deuteronomy 5:17 Thou shalt not kill.
Deuteronomy 5:18 Neither commit adultery.
Deuteronomy 5:19 Neither shalt thou steal.
Deuteronomy 5:20 Neither bear false witness.
Deuteronomy 5:21 Neither desire thy neighbour's..
Deuteronomy 5:22 These words the LORD spake..with a great voice: AND HE ADDED NO MORE

THIS IS THE DISTINCTION

GOD ADDED NO MORE
so who commanded laws about sacrifices?
---francis on 3/6/12


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Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
Jeremiah 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you

so If God did not speak nor command Israel to perform sacrifies and burnt offerings, who did?

If we find out who spoke to israel and commanded them to perform burnt offerings and sacrifies, maybe we can make a distinction.
---francis on 3/6/12


This is NOT a distinction the Bible itself makes, as I've pointed out repeatedly.

Glory to Jesus Chris!
---Cluny on 3/6/12


We understand that the sacrifices represented the coming sacrifice of Jesus. Now we have the Lord's Supper to represent Jesus, and "as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim His death till He comes," Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11:26. And what most of all is "in remembrance" of Jesus > the breaking bread and the cup . . . or how we are loving like Jesus was on the cross? Do we have love in us that reminds us of Him? God bless us (c:
---Bill_willa6989 on 3/6/12


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