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How To Know You Are Saved

A question specifically for Calvinists if I may. How do you know that you are saved (one of the elect)?

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 ---Blogger9680 on 3/11/12
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How many scriptures are there using the word predestination?
What was predestined?
Unlike those before the cross, those under law, no one under the law was predestined to be holy and blameless before Him in Love. No one under Law was predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. If the Law had the power to bring this to pass, we would have no need for Jesus Christ.
Jesus will present to Himself the Church, His Body of Believers without spot or wrinkle.
All who receive Jesus Christ by faith are promised, not only eternal security, but sanctification once and for all through the body of Christ....not through the LAW.
God predestined our sanctification, not our justification.
---kathr4453 on 3/16/12


Kathr, you now say with a twisted tongue, and I say twisted because you twisted what you had said already when I ask you "Who do you say that Christ is?"

You said he became a Son. That He was not the eternal Begotten Son of God. I told you He was always the Son from all eternity, that He was not born a son. You made a big deal about it. now you say,

"It is important to remember that the word Christ literally means Messiah. When we talk about Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh we are saying that Jesus came down from above, He became flesh, and He is is the Messiah."

Pretty much contradicted your own words. I told you, you were lying then.
---Mark_V. on 3/16/12


Andy, I see you picked your time to be quick to jump on Christan but never really said anything to Kathr, or for that matter anyone who calls us names as she does to me, Here she said to me "You markv, a window licking inbred," I didn't see a post to tell her she was wrong. I see all of you tolerate her evil ways, and when we answer back, you jump in to help. You, who call youself a pastor.
And who said anything was wrong with Charles Spurgeon? No one. There is no quote of words concerning anything he has written. All just talk. Here we speak for the Sovereign right of God to chose whom He wills and you defend the other side as a pastor. No wonder the church is in such a mess.
---Mark_V. on 3/16/12


I can't help but be somewhat amused by some of these comments here.

Christan, may I ask you a question?

I see you use John Calvin's teachings. Does that make you John Calvin or elevate you to the level of John Calvin? Be careful how you answer.

I have to say I believe there is something very wrong with your heart/spirit. I don't know that I have ever witnessed so much anger and hostility in my entire life as a Pastor.

To use Charles Spurgeon's insight is something we could all benefit from.
---Andy on 3/16/12


The apostle John left us with a guideline for discerning and understanding what it means to be of an antichrist spirit. Listen to his words here:

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come, and even now already is it in the world. (1 John 4:3)
It is important to remember that the word Christ literally means Messiah. When we talk about Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh we are saying that Jesus came down from above, He became flesh, and He is is the Messiah.
---kathr4453 on 3/16/12




"I was actually using Charles Spurgeon RE: The Rent Veil, and christan cursed it."

Would you like to give evidence of what you have just accused me of "cursing"? Or are you simply bearing false witness on someone just because you're not getting your ways with some people who are standing up to your LIES?

I gave you Scripture backing of the symbolism in the Holy of Holies from Hebrews and simply said your understanding was erroneous and you accused me of "cursing" you and Charles Spurgeon? And since when did you elevate yourself to the level of Charles Spurgeon? Oh, I forgot, you dared elevate yourself to the level of God, so it should not be a surprise then.
---christan on 3/16/12


"You can ask this question till the cows come home and never get the EXACT answer from any of then."

Well, well, well. Have the Word of God finally silence your stance on 'free-will' which we have shown with Scriptures that it's nothing but a figment of your imagination that you now decided to turn your attention to Calvinism? Are you throwing smoke bombs to avoid all the Scriptures MarkV, lee and myself have been showing you that 'free-will' of man is nothing but a lie?

Talk about not answering what Scripture speaks against your 'free-will'understanding. Or do you not know we have answered you with Scriptures to begin with?
---christan on 3/16/12


Quote from MarkV:br>
Kathr, says,

"Paul was hated because he preached THE CROSS, not predestination or election or God's Sovereignty."

The fact is that Paul preached predestination and election. The children of the flesh don't understand that fact.

---You lady, cannot stand the Truth. That is why you hate us.
---Mark_V. on 3/15/12


The Real issue with MarkV, christan and Leej is this. THEY hate teh preaching of the Cross. All the while I preach the cross and the blood, all they do is twist and curse me..WHY? Because it is the Preaching of the Cross that is the POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION. Not the preaching of predestination.

THEY DON'T WANT YOU SAVED!
---kathr4453 on 3/16/12


JackB//BUT nowhere in scripture does it say that man cannot CALL upon the Lord for salvation on his own.
---
Can the spiritual blind see? Can a dead man become alive enough to save himself?

The verse that is oft used to support the belief that salvation is wholly of God is -

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

I believe God through His Spirit may control circumstances and can provides evidence enough to draw those who would believe to a saving faith in Him. Thus there is always an accountability.
---lee1538 on 3/16/12


MarkV//I do not consider you a born again Christian or a sister in Christ, for no sister would ever say what you do..

I would not view Kathryn as being anything but a born again Christian but like many today still have a mess in her diapers to clean up. She like many babies, is crying out for attention.


She really does not understand nor does she attempt to understand the basic doctrines of the Christian faith.

Hebrews 5:12-13 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.
---lee1538 on 3/16/12




L in TULIP stands for LIMITED Atonement. Even a 3 point Calvinist believes in limited atonement.

A 6 point calvinists is a Hyper Calvinist.

I was actually using Charles Spurgeon RE: The Rent Veil, and christan cursed it. We know Charles Spergeon was a calvinist, YET also believed in Whosoever will. Today's new breed of Calvinists HATE Charles Spurgeon and call him a heretic.

No two calvinists believe the same. There are Presb Calvinists, Baptist Calvinists and so on.

You can ask this question till the cows come home and never get the EXACT answer from any of then. Lee MarkV and Christan have already proved that. It doesn't matter to them that they don't agree as long as they are a calvinist.

.
---kathr4453 on 3/16/12


Blogger9680. I've been searching this for over 30 years and have found the Majority of those who claim to be calvinists believe they are because they believe in eternal security. BUT when asked or shown the TULIP , had no Idea what it all boiled down to. THEN they say, NO I'm not that, and I don't believe that.

There is an alternative to not being an Arminian...but it isn't becoming a Calvinist. ONE can actually be NEITHER, just as our original apostles were neither. They were disciples of CHRIST who were then called CHRISTIANS.
---kathr4453 on 3/16/12


Kathr, I've taken the stand to show you the same respect you show me. I do not consider you a born again Christian or a sister in Christ, for no sister would ever say what you do. I consider you hostile to the Word of God. Not because you reject the Truth, which you always do, but because of the words that come out of your mouth are not from the Holy Spirit. They are guided by an anti-christ spirit. And I rebuke that spirit in the name of Jesus Christ.

"These antichrists are trying to seduce us away from Jesus Christ" ( 1John 2:26).
"True Christians must overcome every form of antichrist" (1 John 4:4). As I said before, I am not afraid of evil. I'm always aware of it.
---Mark_V. on 3/16/12


"COHORTS? What do yo mean when you use that term? I find it offensive."
- Dictionary defines it as "1. a group or company: She has a cohort of admirers. 2. a companion or associate."

It's fine when you speak insults and when you get a reply in the same manner, you take offense? You have no qualms about playing rough and when your feathers get ruffled, you go crying and make yourself sound like a victim. Grow up! What hypocrisy and double standard you practice.

"When you all can show HONESTY, then we'll talk again."
- Saying anyone can go to Christ by their 'free-will' is honest? What did Christ say in John 6:44,65 which contradicts you? And you're honest? Ya, right!
---christan on 3/16/12


If you have any doubts that you are saved, you aren't. Simple as that.
---Pat.pat on 3/15/12


--Again, to accuse anyone of not being saved based on your LIMITED doctrine and not Jesus Christ is straight from the pitts of hell--

A persons faith in Jesus Christ should be the main reason to judge a man as saved or lost.
Discussing our doctrinal differences is fine, but brethren judging one another as "of the devil" and such because we dont see eye to eye is childish. I see it happening on both sides so Im not singling anyone out.

There comes a time when you can go too far and become a stumbleblock for your brother or sister.

Romans 14:22
Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth
---LindaH on 3/15/12


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It teaches fallen people are morally and spiritually unable to follow God or escape their condemnation before him. It is seen as the work of God (divine intervention) in which God changes their unwilling hearts from rebellion to willing obedience.--- Lee1538

Agreed! BUT nowhere in scripture does it say that man cannot CALL upon the Lord for salvation on his own.

We cannot save ourselves or change ourselves but that doesnt mean we cant recognize that we have a sickness that we cant heal ourselves and be convinced that the answer for that sickness lies in the healing of Jesus Christ!

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. It is NOT whosoever is saved shall call upon the name of the Lord.
---JackB on 3/15/12


Probably Calvinist is best summarized by the 5 points of Calvinism (TULIP), though these points identify the Calvinist view on soteriology rather than summarizing the system as a whole.

The major objection is to the concept of total depravity or total inability of degenerate man as capable of saving himself.

It teaches fallen people are morally and spiritually unable to follow God or escape their condemnation before him. It is seen as the work of God (divine intervention) in which God changes their unwilling hearts from rebellion to willing obedience.

Since the Calvinist view of scripture that salvation is wholly of God, that it is the work of divine intervention, the believer is thereby one of the elect.
---lee1538 on 3/15/12


//normal Calvinists do not believe in predestination to damnation, nor do they all believe in limited atonement. That is a belief held by what are known as hyper-Calvinist.

Very very true. But there are also on this forum those who having find one aspect that they do not understand or disagree with, are quick to condemn anyone who would agree with Calvin as to what the scripture teaches.

Unfortunately there are those who really have never read much about what Calvinism really teaches preferring instead to foolishly condemn it based upon the negative aspersions that some have cast.

For those who would like to get deeper into the different types of Calvinism may wish to read Chosen by Free by Geisler.
---lee1538 on 3/15/12


Can we please tone things down a bit? The purpose of this blog was for Calvinists to explain fully their beliefs so further arguments and lying about what others believe can be avoided. From what Ive read and heard from others away from this site, normal Calvinists do not believe in predestination to damnation, nor do they all believe in limited atonement. That is a belief held by what are known as hyper-calvinist.
What I am trying to determine is who is hyper and who is not.

Lets please get back to the topic.
---Blogger9680 on 3/15/12


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---christan on 3/15/12


Really christan??? COHORTS? What do yo mean when you use that term? I find it offensive.

The Holy Spirit is my teacher...not you. And you have not answered anyone's questions here, you only insult all the while posting over and over the same ol same ol limited scripture taken out of context and manipulated to say what you want it to say.

That's DISHONEST christan.

When you all can show HONESTY, then we'll talk again.

Night Night!

God CREATED reprobated LOL, Even Nana asked you why you and markv disagreed over that...thought we forgot???. I'm still busting a gut over that made up LIE!
---kathr4453 on 3/15/12


"How nice it would be to have an adult conversation here witout all teh UGLY comments."

Funny you should say this and have the audacity to behave like a spoil brat all in one breath "Your hateful spiteful comments christan EXPOSE you have no Holy Spirit in you CONTROLLING you."

You're so filled with the spirit? Hmmm..... I wonder which spirit?

Let me tell you something, if you have no problem dishing out the kind of venomous remarks, you had better learn to accept in return what you give.

If anything, people like MarkV, lee and myself have been showing you and your cohorts are with Scripture support that make your understandings completely erroneous.
---christan on 3/15/12



---lee1538 on 3/15/12

Rants? Who here is condemning who? It appears teh only condemnation here are the calvinists against those who further question with your doctrine WITH SCRIPTURE, calling it RANTING.???

Again, to accuse anyone of not being saved based on your LIMITED doctrine and not Jesus Christ is straight from the pitts of hell.

What hypocrites!

Who here is preaching ANOTHER Jesus? You dear sir preach NO JESUS at all!

I preach the BLOOD and the CROSS called AMAZING GRACE. Sorry Lee, but THAT IS THE ONLY GOSPEL that is TRUTH.
---kathr4453 on 3/15/12


---Mark_V. on 3/15/12


really? Do you even understand the New Covenant? WHERE is the scripture stating there is no free will under the New Covenant. The NEW Covenant is better than the Old Covenant. The New Covenant is in HIS BLOOD. The BLOOD of the New Covenant is about Jesus Christ.

MarkV, I have REFRAINED from saying you or christan are not saved. That is not my place to PLAY GOD. Nor is it YOUR's to play God.

I know I'm saved. So your underhanded insults only make me laugh at your ignorance and arrogance.

You markv, a window licking inbred, ((One who spends 8+ hours a day on the internet)) has caused severe mental issues with your ability to relate to others in a Christ like manner.
---kathr4453 on 3/15/12


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Jas 4:2 You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask.

Yes, I agree this forum could use a little less on the 'hateful spiteful comments' and more on something that is contructive or beneficial to others.

However, scripture also teaches that we are in a warfare against those that would preach a another Jesus and a different gospel 2 cor. 11:4.

Perhaps it would help if kathryn got over her rants concerning what she conceives of as being Calvinism and stop condemning those who believe much of what Calvin wrote is totally scriptural.
---lee1538 on 3/15/12


How nice it would be to have an adult conversation here witout all teh UGLY comments.

Obviously christan didn't GET what I was saying. Is it any different than what he's posted?

If people took the time to LISTEN, rather than spend day and night Thinking up sarcastic remarks to insult others, we may all realize God gave us ALL SPIRITUAL Gifts to share truth in His Body. Anyone who believe God gave THEN every answer, is admitting they don't need the Body. Pride and arogance.

Your hateful spiteful comments christan EXPOSE you have no Holy Spirit in you CONTROLLING you.
---kathr4453 on 3/15/12


Kathr, I don't have a hard time believing why you don't believe the Truth, its because you are not saved. And until you are, you will remain in unbelief, trusting in your own works and your own mouth to speak what's in the heart, "evil.' With your own words you condemn yourself.

There is no free will under the New Covenant. People believe the gospel, because God has granted them faith, that's why not everyone has faith,
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of your own doing, it is the gift of God-not of works, so that no one can boast" Now Read the New Covenant given to all people in ( Jeremiah 32:38-41) No where in those passages does God mention free will. It is all the work of God.
---Mark_V. on 3/15/12


Heb 9:8 The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing

Matt 27:50-51
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom, and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent,

Heb6:19
Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil,
Hebrews 9:3
And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all,
Hebrews 10:20
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh,
---kathr4453 on 3/15/12


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"when Jesus Died the veil in the temple was RENT signifying the way INTO the Holy of Holies had been opened."

WOW! Which apostle taught this? The things some will say to wedge in their precious 'free-will' doctrine.

Jesus declared, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Do we need to go through the doctrine of regeneration again?

What Matthew 27:51 simply means is the temple worship of God was over for Israel, prompting Paul to declare in Acts 17:24, "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands."
---christan on 3/15/12


"The Holy of Holies" was symbolic of entering into God's presence, "Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things..." Hebrews 8:5

"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us, Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others - For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." Hebrews 9:24,25

Just as the lamb and ark in the OT was symbolic of Jesus Christ.
---christan on 3/15/12


christan* "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:3,6

If you were never dead after the Fall, why would Christ even bother to tell us we need to be born of the Spirit?

Isn't he given us to choose?

christan* "But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God," John 1:12,13

For some, being born of the Spirit is of their will and not God. Which goes against John's teaching.

Before that it reads "
He came unto his own, and his own received him not."V 11- Some choose to believe some did not!
---Ruben on 3/15/12


----Return unto me, and I will return unto you"V 7-The very next verse:)
---Ruben on 3/15/12

Are you a son of Jacob christan or the spiritual seed of Abraham through ISAAC.

In Isaac will thy seed be called.

Jacob is the PHYSICAL descendents of Israel...physical JEWS. No Gentile is a son of Jacob.

And Ruben is correct, RETURN means : once was there, gone...please come back.

WHEN did you or the CHURCH ever LEAVE GOD and are asked to RETURN?
---kathr4453 on 3/15/12


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MarkV, teh Blood of Jesus or the Atonement was NEVER limited. Nor was it limited in just covering certain sins.

You LIMIT GOD by making such a gaft of a statement, nor do you even understand what it means by the Atonement.

Jesus blood ALSO purified heaven itself, sprinkled on the Mercy seat in Heaven. Jesus Christ sits on that Mercy seat, THE RISEN CHRIST.

Now anyone can blodly come to the throne of GRACE to find mercy, and be GIVEN ( a gift) the sure mercies of David. Now this was promised to ALL Israel without exception, and guess what, YOU a gentile TOO. No begging required!
---kathr4453 on 3/15/12


You know too MarkV, when Jesus Died the veil in the temple was RENT signifying the way INTO the Holy of Holies had been opened. That Holy of Holies was heaven itself. Now we come a NEW and DIFFERENT way, through the veil, that is to say HIS FLESH Now do you understand what that means?

NO ONE can come to teh FAther except through His Son.

I am Crucified with Christ, raised up a NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST. Only I IN CHRIST, and He IN ME can come into the presence of God the Father, AKA Born Again of teh Spirit of the Life of Christ.

Do I know I have? YOU BET! And when that day happened...I said ABBA FATHER!
---kathr4453 on 3/15/12


Not all Israel will be saved only those who believe by faith. God spoke on Mount Sinai that If the Israelites obeyed His voice" "then" they would be "a special treasure..a kingdom of priest, and a holy nation" (Exodus 19:5,6). In a letter to believers, Peter quoted the same words and applied them to God's Church, "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation. His own special people.. who once were not a people but are now the people of God" (1 Peter 2:9,10) Paul in the N.T. also called true believers in the Messiah..both Jews and Gentiles.."the elect of God" (Colossians 3:11,12). There is only One group going to heaven, the Church.
---Mark_V. on 3/15/12


---Believers should know the atonement is limited. For many are going to hell. Which indicates to me that it is limited only to those who will believe through faith.---MarkV

It only indicates that to you because you refuse to set boundaries in your beliefs on the things that scripture is VERY CLEAR about and if another belief goes over those boundaries then you must be humble enough to admit you have MISINTERPRETED the thing which violates those boundaries. Pride causes men to fall...every....single...time!

Scripture is VERY CLEAR that Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world! (1 John 2:2)(John 3:16)(1 John 4:14)(John 4:42)(Romans 5:18,19)
---JackB on 3/15/12


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"God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth." John 4:24

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Romans 5:12

"When His disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, WITH MEN THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE, but with God all things are possible." Matthew 19:25,26

For the 'free-willers', they will say "with me it is possible".
---christan on 3/15/12


"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:3,6

If you were never dead after the Fall, why would Christ even bother to tell us we need to be born of the Spirit?

"But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: WHICH WERE BORN, NOT OF BLOOD, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD." John 1:12,13

For some, being born of the Spirit is of their will and not God. Which goes against John's teaching.
---christan on 3/15/12


1 Timothy 6:3_6 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness,
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
But godliness with contentment is great gain."

Some things can only be done by the Moderators...
---Nana on 3/15/12


"For I am the LORD, I change not, therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." Malachi 3:6. And who are the "sons of Jacob"? The ELECT!
---christan on 3/14/12

And even the so-call 'Elect' Malachi says "Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you"V 7-The very next verse:)
---Ruben on 3/15/12


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According to some erroneous belief, Jesus "will draw ALL MEN to himself" means that it is "everyone of mankind". If that's true, why would God create the Lake of Fire? Isn't God Almighty enough to save "everyone" if the "ALL" means "everyone of mankind"? This only proves they do worship a god of their imagination.

Jesus clearly specified who the "ALL" points to, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me... that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father... for them which thou hast given me, for they are thine."

How do you fit your 'free-will' here? Did the Father give "everyone" to Christ? Absolutely NOT!
---christan on 3/15/12


"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" Ephesians 1:13

According to you means "Jesus gives you the Spirit AFTER you trust in him!" Seriously? If you really have the ability to "trust Christ", why do you even need to be born of the Spirit? Afterall, Christ is God and God is Spirit and "those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth", right?

Let's see, you already have the Spirit and you still want to be born of the Spirit? Hmmm... what kind of doctrine is this, really?
---christan on 3/15/12


A pervasive doctrine in the Christian world today strips God of His sovereignty and in effect, of His very deity.

According to this doctrine, a poor improvised deity rings his hands in heaven, hoping at times against hope that somebody will take seriously the sacrifice that His son made and bring His plan of salvation to fruition.

---lee1538 on 3/14/12


Lee, God the Father and Jesus Christ HIS SON whom the Angels stated in Acts 1:11 will return, the RISEN CHRIST, ( yes it took His death and resurrection so that these promises can be FULFILLed ...Zechariah 12-14.

No one is ringing any hands in hopes of anything. God's SOVEREIGN PROMISES have proclaimed it, and HE WILL DO IT!
---kathr4453 on 3/15/12


Acts 1:6 So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.


You see LeeJ, it's not a question of IF God is going to restore the Kingdom to Israel, but WHEN. This was also stated in Matthew...ONLY the Father Knows.

And we also KNOW That "THE CHURCH" DID NOT replace those promises to Israel the NATION.
---kathr4453 on 3/15/12


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I really don't understand why Calvinists have such a hard time understanding God/Jesus Christ had every right to CHOOSE Jews as His disciples.

Did God Choose Moses to lead, David as King, John the Baptist to proclaim and usser in Christ. God CHOSE out of His OWN Chosen People to serve Him as He always had, INCLUDING PAUL.

If God wanted to prove election "of salvation" by only choosing to do so at whim, PAUL would have been a GENTILE. Or better yet, CALVIN would have been born then and made an Apostle to the Gentiles.

Calvin wasn't born until 1500 years later. GOD DID NOT NEED CALVIN!
---kathr4453 on 3/15/12


Kathr, you make a lot of statements with no understanding. You said'

"Calvinists believe in LIMITED Atonement"

I do not what a Calvinist believes, but if they believe in limited atonement they sure are correct so you should believe what they do. Believers should know the atonement is limited. For many are going to hell. Which indicates to me that it is limited only to those who will believe through faith. From the beginning it's been limited to only them, and no one else. What you and others don't like, is that God chose them. You don't like His will to be done, but yours. So you complain everyday.
---Mark_V. on 3/15/12


"Because the two of your are of the same belie..." Blogger9680
- Does that mean we speak for one another? Do you speak for the rest of your cohorts who belief in 'free-will'? Even then, you have differences with one another.

"Mutual respect is a good thing right?"
- Christ didn't come to seek "respect" from those He was not going to save. His mission was clear, "to save His people from their sins.", which He fulfilled.

"Only those who respond in fear resort to insults and bearing false witness."
- Fear? You? Maybe you should read the discourse between Christ and the Jews in John 8:31-49, and tell us what you think about the discourse.
---christan on 3/14/12


Christan, scripture says that the Father grants the Holy Spirit if you ask. Does it not? (Luke 11:13)

Jesus also has the power to give the Holy Spirit to men! (John 15:26, 16:15, 20:22)

He is now "lifted up" and what did He say He would do when He is lifted up? He will draw ALL MEN to himself (John 12:32) Jesus said it! Why do you refuse to believe it?

We do not live in the time when Christ was in the body and salvation was restricted to the Jews! (Matt 10:5-8, 15:24-28) That was then, this is now! (Romans 11)
Jesus gives you the Spirit AFTER you trust in him! (Eph 1:13)
---JackB on 3/14/12


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Youre not gonna like this, Christan ...

The woman from Canaan had faith in Jesus (Matt 15:28) even though she wasnt one of the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" that Jesus came for. How is that possible given what you believe?

Please read that story over and over again.

The bottom line is this:
"The Lord confides in those who fear him, he makes his covenant known to them" (Psalm 25:14)

Cornelius is a perfect example (Acts 10). Look what Peter told him in verses 34 and 35 just before his conversion.

Does Cornelius DESERVE salvation because He fears God? No, but he receives it anyway. THAT is grace! God offers mercy and grace to those who fear him. Its written all throughout scripture.
---JackB on 3/14/12


I see where youre coming from, Lee, but WOW at your ending comment.

If the gospel came to the Jews first and ALL of the Jews rejected it, who is there to spread the good news to the rest of the world after Christ has risen and ascended?

Some had to be selected, just as Jesus said. Jesus didnt look for faith in Paul. He converted Paul! He even chose his disciples, they didnt chose him. Yet one of those He chose, betrayed him as God allowed it to fulfill prophecy.

So IF an election occured at all it was for the purposes of maintaining the gospel or Gods word to the rest of the world("service" as some say)(Romans 9:11?)(Col 1:26), because scripture is VERY CLEAR that Christ died for the WHOLE WORLD (1 Jn 2:2)
---JackB on 3/14/12


//BTW, what has MarkV to do with what I have to say to you and vice-versa?
---christan on 3/14/12//

Because the two of your are of the same belief and you appear to be joined at the hip - one responds for the other etc etc.

Theres not a single person here that isnt FOR Gods sovereignty. I wish you wouldnt falsely portray everyone as against it. We only disagree on what his sovereign will is based on how we interpret scripture. It would be best NOT to curse or belittle either view of God because in doing so you harden your heart against the possibility of the Holy Spirit convicting you of a false belief.

Mutual respect is a good thing right? Only those who respond in fear resort to insults and bearing false witness.
---Blogger9680 on 3/14/12


"This is what was for-ordained before the foundation of the world. Jesus was for-ordained to die for our sin. Our menaing MAN! There is NO limited election in the "Everlasting Covenant".

Your confession is solid prove you do worship a god of your vain imagination.

Scripture explicitly declares, "thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall SAVE HIS PEOPLE from their sins." Matthew 1:21, "Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. ALL THINGS ARE DELIVERED UNTO ME OF MY FATHER: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and HE TO WHOMSOEVER THE SON WILL REVEAL HIM." Matthew 11:26,27
---christan on 3/14/12


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"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for THE WHICH THOU HAST GIVEN ME, FOR THEY ARE THINE." John 17:9

"ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVETH ME SHALL COME TO ME, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." John 6:37,65

Telling yourself there's no "limited atonement" isn't change God's Will at all! The covenant was made and sealed from eternity between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

"For I am the LORD, I change not, therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." Malachi 3:6. And who are the "sons of Jacob"? The ELECT!
---christan on 3/14/12


kathr4453 //This has to do with God's PLAN during the 1000 year Kingdom reign..of which YOU christan can not do anything to change that plan!
---
A pervasive doctrine in the Christian world today strips God of His sovereignty and in effect, of His very deity.

According to this doctrine, a poor improvised deity rings his hands in heaven, hoping at times against hope that somebody will take seriously the sacrifice that His son made and bring His plan of salvation to fruition.

That is not God nor is a deity like that worthy to be given the title God.
---lee1538 on 3/14/12


Isaiah 46

12Listen to Me, you stubborn-minded, Who are far from righteousness.

When God said this, was He being sarcastic? Duplistic, snickering the whle time KNOWING as some believe the unrighteous cannot hear God?

And lee, to accuse anyone who questions your doctrine on election as being fack and phone christians????WOW how you all think you are so above it all.

I believe anyone who questions one's faith in Jesus Christ Or His death and resurrection, that He died and rose again for SIN..."SIN" being what all man became after the fall is a fake and phoney!

We can all quote scripture tilll teh cows come home, and you all only KNOW 15 verses and close your eyes to the rest! SELECTIVE salvation!
---kathr4453 on 3/14/12


Oh Christan, how I love Isaiah. Do you UNDERSTAND Isaiah? did you ever read the following verses from where you just quoted. Show me where in these two verses folling yours you see God isn't bringing salvation to even the stubborn minded. Nothing here again about God's sovereign right to pick YOU!

Isaiah 46

12Listen to Me, you stubborn-minded, Who are far from righteousness.

13I bring near My righteousness, it is not far off, And My salvation will not delay. And I will grant salvation in Zion, And My glory for Israel.

This has to do with God's PLAN during the 1000 year Kingdom reign..of which YOU christan can not do anything to change that plan!
---kathr4453 on 3/14/12


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christan, God cannot go against His Nature, His sinless PERFECT nature. God cannot contradict His Covenant Promises. ALL of the Sovereignty of God in relating to man is 100% stated in the "Everlasting Covenant". (((Hebrews 13:20-21...Romans 8:11-13)))

This is what was for-ordained before the foundation of the world. Jesus was for-ordained to die for our sin. Our menaing MAN!

There is NO limited election in the "Everlasting Covenant".

Now your made up "Covenant of Grace" is not in scripture, but was made up by Calvinism, AKA Covenant Calvinism. People if you don't believe me LOOK IT UP! It's a false doctrine.
---kathr4453 on 3/14/12


//It's when one declares God appointed a pervie to rape your daughter and causing her to become pregnant as though GOD was forordaining teh whole thing for His purpose.

Such evil is merely in the permissive will of God. He does not ordain it, but permits it and He may use such evil for His purpose. And those who commit evil will be held accountable.

This is an issue that goes back to the question as to why God permits evil in the world.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Christan is correct in asserting that this fake Christians have created a god of their own conception.
---lee1538 on 3/14/12


How often we hear fake christians say, o yeah, God is Sovereign but He's not allowed to do what He pleases. They worship a god of their imagination, telling others what they think who the God of the Bible should be.

Too bad for these fools, for God has already declared who He is and what He does, and whether they believe Him does not depend on them but His Sovereign Will.

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it."
---christan on 3/14/12


"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." ----christan///

christan you FAILED to post WHOLE VERSE.

Matthew 7:20-22
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

If man has no FREE WILL, then ALL are doing the Will of God, and no such verse is necessary!
---kathr4453 on 3/14/12


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Is our FAITH to be in the sovereign election of God....OR is it to be in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Since nowhere does God command anyone to defend His Sovereignty, who appointed these calvinists to and hiss at anyone who questions THEIR take on the Sovereignty of God.

No one here DOUBTS God is Sovereign. That would be doubting God is God.

It's when one declares God appointed a pervie to rape your daughter and causing her to become pregnant as though GOD was forordaining teh whole thing for His purpose.

God had pervies stoned in the OT and adulterers. CAN God go against His nature, His own LAWS of right and wrong, just because He is sovereign.

I say NO!
---kathr4453 on 3/14/12


Blogger9680, my answer to your question is an emphatic NO. Here's why, "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

If you claim you went to Christ by your own 'free-will' - I wholeheartedly disagree with that.

I know that I only believed and went to Christ only because "the Father which hath sent me (Jesus) draw him". And God will only draw those He elected is how you go to Christ.

BTW, what has MarkV to do with what I have to say to you and vice-versa?
---christan on 3/14/12


Wow!thankyou Kath.4453,first for me,realize fully what "calvanism"means,half the stuff flies o'er my head since tak Chemo.that's why I quit watch t.v. too stressful..ELENA.
---ELENA on 3/14/12


\\smells of mockery and unbelief about the Sovereign Election of God, which by the way is clearly taught in the Scriptures.\\
---christan on 3/13/12

too bad you don't understand what it means to be Elect, and what the Elect were elected for.

If you understood that, you might get closer to unerstanding scripture
---James_L on 3/14/12


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Jesus was never scared to answer a question. Im not a pharisee and you are not Christ. This is a question from one believer to another.
Why cant I just get a simple answer?

At least MarkV had enough guts to answer in another blog: "Jesus said that only those who hear His voice and follow Him have eternal life" which tells me that anyone who follows Jesus Christ is one of the "elect" regardless of whether or not they believe in predestination, correct?

So Christan, how do YOU know you are one of the elect?
---Blogger9680 on 3/14/12


If you're a Jehovah's Witness you can never know you're saved.
---Marc on 3/14/12


Do you know what's the favorite pastime of the Pharisees? Entrapment and hypocrisy. Honestly, that's where you're doing too. Jesus hates hypocrites and I suggest you had better try not to be like the Pharisees.
---christan on 3/13/12


why so defensive christan? Are you trying to HIDE something...maybe like, you don't know the answer.

1 Peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.

Meekness and fear...OR sarcasm and arrogance and hate?

How did you answer christan? With a touch of snake venom?
---kathr4453 on 3/14/12


Calvinists believe in LIMITED Atonement, being Jesus only died for a select group of people that were picked out before they were even born to be saved. So God has His elect number, that can't be changed no matter what.

YET, when we know our OT scriptures, and as we see God had Moses build a tabernacle AFTER the pattern of things in Heaven, all to draw a PICTURE of God's plan of Salvation, NOWHERE in that PATTERN was any idea that salvation was to be given to only a select number, excluding others. Any Gentile who joined themself to Israel was covered under the yearly ATONEMENT for sin for ALL the People.

Any Gentile/stranger/foreigner joining themselves to Israel did so of his/her own free will. SEE RUTH! No one twisted her arm!
---kathr4453 on 3/14/12


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"That sounds so Christ-like of you Christan. I apologize for caring for others..." Blogger9680

Caring for others, especially for the Calvinist? Oh, please spare us the hypocrisy. Asking a question like "A question specifically for Calvinists if I may. How do you know that you are saved (one of the elect)?" smells of mockery and unbelief about the Sovereign Election of God, which by the way is clearly taught in the Scriptures.

Do you know what's the favorite pastime of the Pharisees? Entrapment and hypocrisy. Honestly, that's where you're doing too. Jesus hates hypocrites and I suggest you had better try not to be like the Pharisees.
---christan on 3/13/12



---lee1538 on 3/13/12


lee1538, not sure what you mean by your comment. Shoudn't you say WITH you all election means God's sovereignty can do as He pleases with his creation.

christan believes God CREATED reprobates. How and when did that happen? Not according to scripture. God created adam out of the dust of the earth, and Eve from Adam's rib. I personallly know of no other created man. ALL else were begotten, or birthed from Adam & Eve. It sounds like you all believe God created other human beings after Adam?

And you seem to be suggesting God did not need Jesus to save anyone, since His sovereign right could save anyone based on His good humor.
---kathr4453 on 3/13/12


//How do you know that you are saved (one of the elect)?

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

I believe anyone born of God's Spirit readily realizes that he belongs to God as we have that internal witness of His Spirit.

Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,and if children, then heirs-heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

And we believe by faith in God's promises as seen in scripture.
---lee1538 on 3/13/12


Blogger, I know I'm a believer in Christ by faith. For I know the Truth, His name is Christ. I believe in my heart and hear the words of Christ speak out to me for He is the Word of God.

I told you, and you do not believe" were the words of Christ. We tell you the Truth, you do not believe either. Jesus said,
"You do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow Me." (John 10:26,27). He doesn't lay down His life for the wicked, for He said,
"And I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold" For His sheep only, those chosen from the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4).
---Mark_V. on 3/13/12


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I think we do well if we first define what a Calvinist really is and what he believes in.

With Kathryn, a Calvinist is simply one who believes in the sovereignty of God, that God can do with His creation as He so desires and that for His own glory and purpose.
---lee1538 on 3/13/12


But, Blogger, I'm not a Calvinist, to my knowledge, but I do believe in predestination with God controlling what happens to people, since He's our Potter > Romans 9:21. How do I know I'm saved? Paul tells us, "Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves." (in 2 Corinthians 13:5) I submit to God for how He has me examine myself and how He has me know. This includes how Hebrews 12:8 says our Father personally corrects us if we are His children. So - - - I know because He personally corrects me (c:

So . . . for your clarification, we could ask Calvinists . . . do you examine yourself, like Paul says to do, and do you experience our Father personally correcting you like He does with His children?
---willie_c: on 3/13/12


Well since Christ IS God in the flesh, I would have to say yes!

Im judging from the scripture you gave that you think the fact that you believe who Jesus is gives evidence that you are one of the elect?

I would kindly ask all other denominations to please refrain from responding here as the intention of this blog is to clear up Calvinist views. Thank you
---Blogger9680 on 3/13/12


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