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How To Get God's Grace

If grace is God's unmerited favor, what then are the means of grace for us?

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 ---lee1538 on 3/16/12
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Obey the Lord your God! Save_your_soul Keep the Commandments!
---Eloy on 3/27/12


\\Nothing BAZAAR about that at all.\\

The word you're looking for is "bizarre."

\\Paul received by revelation of Jesus Christ....is he BETTER than you?
---kathr4453 on 3/27/12\\

Are you claiming that YOU did likewise, kathr? Or is it just to YOU that the Word of God comes?

And while we're on the subject, Eloy, youm have said that any Bible translation after 1611 is corrupted.

I guess that means that YOURM attempted translations of the Bible are corrupted, too, as they come after 1611.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/27/12


Kathr4453//Do you really believe one must have a PHD in man's books to understand, OBEY and have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? There is no POWER in books. Only God's word is living and powerful.

Yes, those that are anti-educational usually say these kind of things. In other word they HATE educated people.

Do you want someone in your church pulpit that is not a graduate of a seminary, someone that has never had any real courses in theology, consulting, church leadership and administration, etc.?

When God calls someone into a ministry, He equips them by providing the necessary training.

I am left wondering what kind of mentors you had.
---lee1538 on 3/27/12


Eloy, you quote Mt. 19 to support your bad exegetics of scripture that one is saved by obedience to laws.

Mt. 19:16-17 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Now tell me, what would Jesus have said if He had been asked if one needs be circumcised and observe the laws of Moses?

You really need to interpret scripture with scripture if you want your doctrinal views to be fully supported.
---lee1538 on 3/27/12


Lee, Jesus is made unto us wisdon and knowledge. James tells us to ask GOD and He gives liberally. BUT to those who are double minded, He gives NOTHING.

Do you really believe one must have a PHD in man's books to understand, OBEY and have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? There is no POWER in books. Only God's word is living and powerful.

NO. Those who rely on man show they have no relationship with Jesus Christ or have the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth.

Scripture teaches scripture.

Nothing BAZAAR about that at all.

Paul received by revelation of Jesus Christ....is he BETTER than you?
---kathr4453 on 3/27/12




lee, Exactly right, God says, WORK!, but if you refuse, then you are cast out. "But what think you all? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, Son, Go Work today in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented and went. And the man came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I, Lord: but went not. Which of the two did the will of the father? They say to him, The first. Jesus affirms that the repented go into the kingdom of God, and not the unrepented. Mt.21:28-32.
---Eloy on 3/27/12


\\Exactly, and those who use words not found in scripture that you need a MAN's Dictionary to define is what CULTS DO.\\

You mean words like "Bible," "revival", "accept Jesus", "personal Savior"?


\\Scripture teaches scripture and the Holy Spirit is our TEACHER.\\

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers

Ephesians 4:11
And he gave some, apostles, and some, prophets, and some, evangelists, and some, pastors and teachers,

\\No one in the early church needed such tools. The Holy Spirit and the Word was ALL THAT WAS NEEDED!\\

But the NT was still being written!

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/27/12


Shes right though, Lee.

Theres no reason for us to even indulge in extrabiblical literature. I reckon if we all spent as much time studying the word of God as we do reading Calvin's or Augustine's writings maybe people wouldnt have such bizarre beliefs. Such as believing God delights in death when He specifically states in his word He does not. He even tells us not to delight in our enemies perishing.

Its very likely that those who believe God delights in death are victim to their own bitterness and it has finally poisoned their soul to where they don't even want a gentle, merciful, compassionate God who wants to save the whole world. They want one who chose them and rejects those they withhold forgiveness from.
---LindaH on 3/27/12


//Exactly, and those who use words not found in scripture that you need a MAN's Dictionary to define is what CULTS DO.

And that would mean that all theologians of every denominaiton are into the cults. Crazy!!!!

Kathryn, your statements are getting more and more bizarre. You really need to get some help before you totally go off the edge of reality.

---lee1538 on 3/27/12


Mark v, the word for WILL it first Tim. 2.4 is Thelo, meaning Will, not some weak desire. It means to form a decision. So the verse means what it says, that God wills all men to be saved. Including women too. Check it out for yourself in a dictionary.
---Pat.pat on 3/27/12




Grace is merited: "Then here one came and said to him, Good Master, which good should I Do, that I may have eternal life? Thereupon he said to him, How me you call good? Not of good if not throughout, he God: but if you desire to enter into life, Keep the commandments. All therefore whosoever hears these my words, and Does them, I will liken that one to a wise person which built their house upon the rock: and down came the rain, and came the floods, and blew the winds, and rushed against that house, thereat it fell not for it was founded on the rock." Mt.19:16,17+ 7:24,25.
---Eloy on 3/27/12


All of these are terms used by theologians in their study of doctrine. Most of these words require a Bible dictionary as these concepts are NOT defined in the Bible
---lee1538 on 3/23/12


Exactly, and those who use words not found in scripture that you need a MAN's Dictionary to define is what CULTS DO. All cults have a suplimentary this or that that says you must read with scripture. The Book of Mormon, the JW's, the RCC bible, and the calvinists.

BEWARE

Scripture teaches scripture and the Holy Spirit is our TEACHER.

No one in the early church needed such tools. The Holy Spirit and the Word was ALL THAT WAS NEEDED!
---kathr4453 on 3/27/12


Pat-pat, sorry, I thought you meant 2 Tim. Concerning (1 Tim. 2:4) Paul was not saying that the will of God is for everyone to be saved. His desires are different. He also desires no one sins, but all do. He desires that we obey, and everyone falls short of the mark. The word "desire" in the Grk. is not that which normally expresses God's will of decree ( His eternal purpose) There is a distinction between God's desire and His eternal purpose, which must transcend His desires. If God wanted to save everyone, everyone would be saved. Jesus said with men this is impossible. But with God nothing is impossible.
---Mark_V. on 3/27/12


Mark v, you didn't read my question. I said first Timothy 2.4.
---Pat.pat on 3/26/12


Pat-pat, what do you see in (2 Tim. 2:4) that I would say is incorrect? A good soldier is a metaphor of the Christian life. In fact, if you had kept reading in (v.10) "Therefore I endure all things for "the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory{".
He knew he had obtain that promise, and endured as a soldier for the sake of the elect who would later come to Christ. That is why we witness to others, for the sake of the elect, all those who haven't come to Christ as if yet as we have.
---Mark_V. on 3/26/12


Mark v, God said the opposite unless first Timothy 2.4 is incorrect, and it looks like you believe it is incorrect. Maybe it is incorrect. You tell me.
---Pat.pat on 3/26/12


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Pat-pat, you must mean,
"If He (God) said so"
Because I didn't say it, God did. I quoted God's Word to you. (Eph. 2:2). Peace I leave you.
---Mark_V. on 3/26/12


Mark v, ok, if you say so it must be so.
---Pat.pat on 3/25/12


Pat-pat, God does see fallen men depraved. As believers we know the world is depraved. God tells us through His Word. When we socialize with the world, the love of Christ should show through us. The only people that have trouble with God's election is those who call themselves Christians. The world knows nothing about God's elect.
All believers should already know that it was God who saved them, that He drew us to Himself while we were walking according to the course of this world, according to the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lust of the flesh, filling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath. Eph. 2:2,3.
---Mark_V. on 3/25/12


Since God views people is totally depraved, and since we are supposed to have God's mindset, it follows we should view other people as totally depraved. This will help up greatly as we interact socially.
---Pat.pat on 3/23/12


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Lee, very good points you gave. It is an easy answer, a person with the Spirit will want to know everything about God. That should be his/her passion. That passion comes from the Spirit in us. It's a good thing that God says
"I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal. "Even so then, at this present time " there is a remnant according to the election of grace." If God had not done that, no one would be saved.
For there is many "who exchange the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator who is blessed forever, Amen." (Rom. 1:24).
---Mark_V. on 3/24/12


//Beware of terms:

Unmerited favor
Common Grace
...
Total Depravity
Limited Atonement
----
All of these are terms used by theologians in their study of doctrine. Most of these words require a Bible dictionary as these concepts are NOT defined in the Bible.

There are those who believe Jesus is all we need as Biblical doctrine divides Christians.

Jesus warns us to know doctrine.

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive,

Either you will learn doctrine or you will end up being deceived by those who are really not Christians.
---lee1538 on 3/23/12


AMEN Allen!

If one has to MAKE UP terms not found in scripture to explain their doctrine...BEWARE!

Beware of terms:

Unmerited favor
Common Grace
Special Grace
Born Again(not based on your identification with Jesus death and resurrection)
Covenant of Grace
Total Depravity
Limited Atonement

The list goes on and on.

Read your Bibles. If it didn't grow that way...DON'T EAT IT!

Ask the LORD to verify anything anyone says through at least 2-3 scriptures to back it up. God will answer your prayer on this( if you're not doubleminded)...James 1!That's a SOVEREIGN promise!
---kathr4453 on 3/23/12


Acts 8:20_23 "But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money."
Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity."

No Holy Ghost for Simon because his heart was not right in the sight of God.
So, he did not merit the gift.
Same principle with those who ask and receive not,
James 4:3 "Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts."
---Nana on 3/21/12


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The Grace of God is the source of all goodness to the human race. There was never a time that the Grace of God did not surround mankind.

Love is not the source of Grace. Indeed, Grace is the source of love.

There is no common grace or "special" grace. The Grace of God is the Grace of God and all of mankind are the recipients of God's Grace.

The notions of preference and special or selected groups are concoctions of men, not of God.
---Allan on 3/21/12


---Cluny on 3/20/12
Show israel as one of the four beast, having ten horns/ kingdoms after thetime of John
---francis on 3/20/12


\\These verse all describe the same beast/ nation/ kingdom: ROME\\

Wrong.

\\this cannot be islam or israel ..||

Yes, it is.

And if it's Judaism, then one of her harlot daughters is the SDA.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/20/12


Actually those descriptions in Daniel are of Alexander the Great and his successors.
---Pat.pat on 3/20/12


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Daniel 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all [things]: And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes,

Daniel 7:7 behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly, and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it had ten horns.

Revelation 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns


These verse all describe the same beast/ nation/ kingdom: ROME

this cannot be islam or israel or china
---francis on 3/20/12


Can we acquire God's grace by observing holy days, communal worship, going on pilgrimages, attending sunday school, reading the Bible, prayer, saying the rosary, good deeds, and other religious type ordinances?
---lee1538 on 3/20/12


//For now, lets just agree thatthese ten horns and the same as the ten toes of daniels Image. Clearly pointing to Rome
---francis on 3/20/12
And just what does this have to do with the forum tread?

Suggest you create a blog question on the Daniel prophecies, to better peddle Adventism.
---lee1538 on 3/20/12


The mother harlot has to be identified with the beast of ten horns and seven heads

Revelation 17:7 I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns

The seven heads, hills, mountains, king, kingdoms have already been identified:: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece ( THE FIVE WHICH HAVE FALLEN: Pagan/ political form of Oome (the one that is), and THE HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE ( The one that is to come)

For now, lets just agree thatthese ten horns and the same as the ten toes of daniels Image. Clearly pointing to Rome
---francis on 3/20/12


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\\And the woman, the mother harlot is she not a false church?
---francis on 3/19/12\\

Nope, unless it's the SDA.

There is only ONE people that has been repeatedly identified with a whorish unfaithful wife, and that is Israel. Jerusalem also sits on seven hills.

Furthermore, the modern post-Christian religion of Judaism is based on the BABYLONIAN Talmud.

Think about it.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/20/12


Common grace to me would mean that grace that God extends to every single human being. It is why we live even after we sin, it is why we get rain, and shine

Then you speak of special grace, the grace that leads to salvation

Both common grae, and special grace comes from the same source and means of God:
LOVE

And every human being has had an encounter with both common and special grace

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another,
---francis on 3/19/12


Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come, and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The five that have fallen are: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece all five had oppressed israel, and were diminished and rulled by Rome at the time John was writing.

One is: That was the Pagan/ political form of Oome that existed at that time

One is to come: That would be THE HOLY SEA

These seven hills/ mountains are not literal. The Bible says that they are seven kings/ kingdoms.

And the woman, the mother harlot is she not a false church?
---francis on 3/19/12


A lot of things point to Mecca for me.

-- It sits on 7 hills.
-- It is the center of Islam, a religion that is the antithesis of Christianity
-- The Greek letters Chi, Xi and Stigma (666) bear a striking resemblance to the symbols on an Islamic flag
---CraigA on 3/19/12


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// Mecca sits on seven hills.

So is Seattle, WA.

When we read the Bible we really need to be extra careful when it comes to prophecy.

In my humble opinion, Advenstists and a few other dissentient sects like to blame Rome for distorting the gospel but they fail miserably to examine their own doctrinal views as all too often they support their views by twisting the daylights out of scripture.

God's grace has delivered many from their clutches.
---lee1538 on 3/19/12


\\His kingdom was not even as large as that of egypt, let alone to take up and influence the whole earth
---francis on 3/19/12\\

Nor is it Rome, as Rome sits on NINE hills.

OTOH, Mecca sits on seven hills. What do you think is the biggest influent in Weltpolitik right now?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/19/12


Want to know the difference between what's "common grace" and "special grace"? Here, let the Scripture explain.
---christan on 3/19/12
I like your answer
I think I understand it
---francis on 3/19/12


That prophecy in Daniel 7 was fulfilled during the 2d century BC by Antiochus Epiphanes ---lee1538 on 3/19/12
Antiochus Epiphanes could not have been the 4th beast, his kingdom was too small, and too weak, and did not have ten kings ( horns)

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

His kingdom was not even as large as that of egypt, let alone to take up and influence the whole earth
---francis on 3/19/12


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No where does it say GRACE is God's unmerited favor.

After Abel sacrificed THEN Abel found favor in God's eyes.

The words unmerited favor are not even in scripture.

So we need to ask, HOW can one be saved BY Grace???

Answer:
Trough Faith!
---kathr4453 on 3/19/12


Francis //Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast ( ROME)shall... think to change times and laws:
---
And what has this to do with the forum thread of Grace?

That prophecy in Daniel 7 was fulfilled during the 2d century BC by Antiochus Epiphanes who did everything he could to destroy the Jewish religion including changing everything that could be changed in Judaism.

Whether the prophecy has a further fulfillment can only be based on speculation and that is what got the Adventism movement in trouble back in 1844 was it not?

Need to stick to the topic of grace and stay away from things that are peculiar to Adventism.
---lee1538 on 3/19/12


francis, you suggested that all man have received the grace of God for salvation. That is not true at all for we know many are in hell already, and many more will go there. Scripture says, they are condemned already. The passage you gave in Titus 2:11, "All men" does not suggest universal salvation. The grace of God given to all mankind here refers to Jesus Christ Himself incarnate, God's supremely gracious gift to fallen mankind. "Mankind" is translated as "man" in (3:4) to refer to humanity in general, as a category, not to every individual (2 Cor. 5:19: 2 Peter 3:9). Jesus Christ made a sufficient sacrifice to cover every sin of everyone who believes (John 3:16-18: 1 Tim. 2:5,6: 4:10: 1 john 2:2).
---Mark_V. on 3/19/12


Want to know the difference between what's "common grace" and "special grace"? Here, let the Scripture explain.

"for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." Matthew 5:45 - this is "common grace". God takes care of His creation. He feeds and clothe them, believers and unbelievers alike.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." - this is "special grace" and only those found in His "covenant of grace" will receive this "special grace" that's call "faith in Jesus Christ".
---christan on 3/19/12


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God's grace stems from gods Love.

It is by God's grace that Adam lives after he sinned, it is by God's grace than any human being lives after he sinned.

That grace which comes from love has always been there, it cames from God's love, not something that God aquired at some point in time.

It is available to everyone who will receive it
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse:
---francis on 3/19/12


--lee1538 on 3/18/12
Most important is to know what the BIBLE says

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast ( ROME)shall... think to change times and laws:

The information that you have read about the church keeping sunday, is consistant with the bible prophecy that ROME would try to change the times and laws of God. Samuelle B, does not supprot christians keeping sunday,but the bible prophecy that the 4th beast would try to change times and laws.
This prophecy is is sharp contrast to what Jesus would do:
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets..Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law,
---francis on 3/19/12


francis//Regarding the 10 commandments, the WCF also states in XXI,7-8 ---leej on 1/8/11
Canon 29 outlawed the keeping of the Sababth and encouraged rest on Sunday (the Lords Day).
---leej on 1/5/11
According to Eamon Duffy "Saints & Sinners, A history of the Popes",
--leej on 12/28/10
According to SDA scholar Samuele Bacchiocchi
---leej on 8/25/10
----------------
One of the most important keys to understanding the scripture is to see what the historical views were.

If the early church did not believe in unique SDA doctrines, we may at least suspect it.

And much to your disappointment, practically nothing in early church history supports anything peculiar to Adventism.
---lee1538 on 3/18/12


francis//stick with the topic of grace
---
You mean you do not want me to answer your question, or should I say your accusations?

Grace to your Adventists is not God's sovereign unmerited favor toward those of whom He will save, but simply a means for one to observe the law with whatever means he or she can find and thus earn salvation.

Eph. 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Adventists truly want to boast in the achievements of the flesh and thus demand salvation of God.
---lee1538 on 3/18/12


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---lee1538 on 3/18/12
stick with the topic of grace
---francis on 3/18/12


//Look at your posts. Your doctrine is based not on the bible, but on non biblical sources:

You need to tell me what specific Christian doctrines I hold that you believe are not biblical. All Christian doctrines are found in the New Testament - the New Covenant dispensation.

Of course, I have listed references from those who are theologians and all too often base what they believe on either scripture or good reasoning.

However it is too easy to see from any Biblical doctrine found in the New Testament that Adventists hold beliefs not found in that faith once delivered to the saints Jude 3.

Where is the Sabbath command in the New Testament, and are Christians restricted in what they may eat? NT references PLEASE!
---lee1538 on 3/18/12


My obsession is really with the teachings and truth from the Bible. ---lee1538 on 3/18/12

Look at your posts. Your doctrine is based not on the bible, but on non biblical sources:

Regarding the 10 commandments, the WCF also states in XXI,7-8 ---leej on 1/8/11
Canon 29 outlawed the keeping of the Sababth and encouraged rest on Sunday (the Lords Day).
---leej on 1/5/11
According to Eamon Duffy "Saints & Sinners, A history of the Popes",
--leej on 12/28/10
According to SDA scholar Samuele Bacchiocchi
---leej on 8/25/10

it is obsession because you have no doctrines based on bible AND you lie about what SDA teach.

It you were not obsessed, you would use the bible, and not lie
---francis on 3/18/12


Francis //Very unhealthy obsession you have with SDA, please get help.

My obsession is really with the teachings and truth from the Bible. What I see in Adventism and in other cults is a different gospel and another Jesus, neither of which can provide anything worthwhile to the believer.

Ps 121:2 My help comes from the LORD, who made heaven and earth.

But where does your help come from? From the teachings of an old woman known for her extra biblical and non-biblical teachings. Please get help as you may find yourself naked before the judgment seat of Christ and hear Him say "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels". Mt. 25:41
---lee1538 on 3/18/12


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---christan on 3/18/12
If you are under the impression that grace was only available after the cross thimk again.

It is only because of God's grace that Adam lived another day.

Noah also found grace is God's sight

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ

Christ was revealed at that time, but the grace has been from the begining. God was not suprised by Adams sin,a nd had a plan ( GRACE) before he made Adam
---francis on 3/18/12


francis, you poor deluded soul. Using John 3:16 merely proves that God does not love everyone as you think He does. And why? Multitudes are already in Hades! Haven't you learn anything from Paul in Romans 9 about who's going to heaven and why? Here,

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
Jacob is in heaven because God loved him and not Esau, and that's because God hated him. "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid."
---christan on 3/18/12


Grace is merited, not unmerited. Grace is given to the repentant soul, the nonrepentant soul receives God's wrath and damnation, and not grace nor salvation.
---Eloy on 3/18/12


The flesh can never please God but Adventism teaches one must strive to be righteous via the law.
---lee1538 on 3/17/12
Very unhealthy obsession you have with SDA, please get help.
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated..for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God


If one rejects Him is because God never loved him to begin with.
---christan on 3/17/12

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If one is not saved it is not because God did not love him, it is because he did not believe
---francis on 3/18/12


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Francis //So grace is given for more than just our eternal salvation. It is also given to us to do the will of God.

Yes, God will grant all necessary provision for the Christian to live a full abundant and righteous life, however, scripture does teach that we are not declared righteous (justified) by our own righteous deeds, viewed as filthy rags.

And that is where Adventism differs with Biblical Christianity. The flesh can never please God but Adventism teaches one must strive to be righteous via the law.
---lee1538 on 3/17/12


Saving grace is not given to all. ---Mark_V. on 3/17/12

Does available and given mean the same thing?

Grace to Adventists is simply a provision that enables them to obey the law and thus be justified by the law. ---lee1538 on 3/17/12
More SDA obsessions?
2 Corinthians 9:8 grace: that ye may abound to every ..good work:

Ephesians 3:8 grace: that I should preach
Acts 14:26 grace: for the work which they fulfilled.

Romans 12:6 gifts according to the grace
Titus 2:11 grace: that.. we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world,

So grace is given for more than just our eternal salvation. It is also given to us to do the will of God
---francis on 3/17/12


"Those in hades simple rejected his grace, but that does not mean it was not available to them." francis

You said earlier, "Grace is available to all whether they believe or not, for God loves all and died for all."

This is what Paul declares about God's love, "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, SHALL BE ABLE TO SEPARATE US FROM THE LOVE OF GOD, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38,39

It's impossible that if God loves you, he cannot save you. If one rejects Him is because God never loved him to begin with.
---christan on 3/17/12


francis, you said the right things in the beginning and gave the glory to God for our salvation, then you turn around and say,
"Grace is available to all whether they believe or not, for God loves all and died for all."

Saving grace is not given to all. If you read the passage you gave does not say His grace is availible to all. (Romans 5:8 goes with 9).

"But God commendeth his love "toward us," in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" The "toward us" is believers only. For in the next passage he tells us so.
"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him"
---Mark_V. on 3/17/12


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Francis //God grace is not based on whether we believe or not or whether we obey or not.

Grace to Adventists is simply a provision that enables them to obey the law and thus be justified by the law. Of course, this is contrary to Romans 3:20.

For by works of the law (includes the 10 commandments) no human being will be justified (declared rigtheous) in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

You have NOT answered the thread question as to how one appropriates God's grace.

Think about it or find yourself a good commentary if you do not know the answer.
---lee1538 on 3/17/12


---christan on 3/17/12

God's grace is available to all. God grace was available before we accepted him, and even when we reject him

Those in hades simple rejected his grace, but that does not mean it was not available to them.
---francis on 3/17/12


"Grace is available to all whether they believe or not, for God loves all and died for all." francis

If what you say is truth, you're going to have a hard time explaining to those souls who's already in Hades, why they ended down there. Afterall, you say "God loves all and died for all" and yet these souls are in Hades. Did God forget to save them?
---christan on 3/17/12


Obey how His grace blesses us. Grace is not just favor from a distance. I offer, that grace includes how God in us effects us with His love (Romans 5:5, 1 John 4:17-18) with His leading in this love (Philippians 1:9). His grace favors Jesus being formed in us (Galatians 4:19), making us pleasing to Him like Jesus is (1 Peter 3:4), and His peace rules us so we are sharing with Him in doing all He pleases to share with us.

"Therefore submit to God." (in James 4:7)

"Rest in the LORD" (in Psalm 37:7)

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body, and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

And we minister this grace to each other > 1 Peter 4:9-10.
---willie_c: on 3/17/12


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Believe what Christ accomplished for us with the finished work of the Cross

1 Cor.15:1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you THE GOSPEL which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand, 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have BELIEVED in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also RECIEVED, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures,
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
---michael_e on 3/17/12


John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The only qualifier here in that verse is to believe. There is nothing about being obedience to commandments or anything else.
---lee1538 on 3/16/12

I think you have missunderstood me. God grace is not based on whether we believe or not or whether we obey or not.

God grace is based on HIS LOVE.

Grace is available to all whether they believe or not, for God loves all and died for all.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
---francis on 3/17/12


God has been gracious from the beginning. When Adam and Eve sinned, God graciously intervened, promised a Redeemer, and made immediate provision for their acceptance before Him in their sinful condition. Noah found grace in the sight of God (Gen. 6:8). God graciously intervened, saving Noah and his family. In the age of civil goverment man rebelled by building the tower of Babel. God did not destroy the rebellious creation, but continued to work in the hearts of men like Abraham and Melchizedek by extending a gracious promise that He would bless so many through Abraham. God's grace has been coming towards man all through history. Under the New Covenant of grace He continues to deal graciously with mankind. It's God's unmerited favor.
---Mark_V. on 3/17/12


"what then are the means of grace for us?
Man does not "bring, cause, or produce" grace "as a result" of something that he or she does. Grace is a gift. If you define grace as "God's unmerited favor", then by your own definition, it is not something that is deserved or justified, therefore without "means".
---joseph on 3/17/12


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//I guess that's why everyone here has to turn to Paul for grace. // barb

don't forget about John who was in the inner circle of the twelve:

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:16 And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.

barb, the last verse may sting even through your shell...

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
---aka on 3/16/12


"Here is what Jesus Christ says about grace.......nothing. I guess that's why everyone here has to turn to Paul for grace." barb

So, Paul was speaking on his own outside of the will of God? Really? And you really think Jesus spoke nothing about grace?

"Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." Matthew 11:26,27 - this is grace!

And there are many more of such teachings by Christ in the Gospels, if you have "eyes" to see.
---christan on 3/16/12


Here is what Jesus Christ says about grace.......nothing. I guess that's why everyone here has to turn to Paul for grace.

And Jesus is not talking about grace in John 3:16. He is telling us that God loved the world so much that He sent His only begotten son here so that those who believe and abide in the words of His son can be saved. This verse says nothing about Jesus dying for the sins of the world...read it again.
---barb on 3/16/12


"By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name" Romans 1:5
- Without God's grace, it's impossible to to be "obedient to the faith", which by the way is God's gift to His people.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8,9

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Romans 4:4
- If you believe that you have the 'free-will' to go to Christ, Paul clearly declares that is works and not grace. Grace is clearly 100% the work of God.
---christan on 3/16/12


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Francis - John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The only qualifier here in that verse is to believe. There is nothing about being obedience to commandments or anything else.

But how does one appropriate God's grace beyond just believing? That is the question in view here.

To Cluny grace is acquired thru the sacraments.

To some it is Bible study, prayer, showing love toward those in need, etc.

---lee1538 on 3/16/12


You will get God's grace if God has already planned to give it to you. If not, you won't get it no matter what you do.
---Pat.pat on 3/16/12


If grace is God's unmerited favor, what then are the means of grace for us?
---lee1538 on 3/16/12
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.
---francis on 3/16/12


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