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Doctrine Of Election Scriptures

What scriptural verses are used to support the doctrine of election?

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 ---lee1538 on 3/16/12
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\\//The Church did not replace the promises to the NATION Israel. !\\

Yes, she did.

When our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ explained Isaiah's Song of the Vineyard (Is 5), He said to the Jews of His time, "Therefore the Kingdom of God is taken from you, and given to a nation who will bring forth its fruits."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/3/12


Kathr, you said God spoke to you, and that because you are a Jew you are a remnant, let me tell you, it was not God who spoke to you, because God does not deceive anyone, someone else does.
The remnant are those chosen by God. And let me tell you, I don't care if you are a Jew, Gentile, or Mexican, if you don't have faith in the Works of Christ and believe He is the Eternal Son of God, you are heading to hell. No one goes in without faith in Jesus Christ. He is the only Way. And that faith comes from God through His Word. Jesus broke down the wall of separation between the Jews and the Gentiles (Acts 10:44,45).
The Spiritual Israel of God will be saved(Gal.6:16) His Church. The Israel of the flesh (1 Cor. 10:18) is going to hell.
---Mark_V. on 4/3/12


If you are being preached a gospel W/OUT the foundation of the CROSS being the only foundation for your salvation and election, please open your eyes.

Romans 9-11 is not about CHRIST CRUCIFIED.

I was always God ELECT. Israel always belonged to God, and will always be God's Elect. But our election didn't guarantee salvation, as you well know.

Judas was also one of the Elect.

My Faith in Jesus Christ who died for my sin and rose again for my justification who I identiify with in death and resurrecton life raising me up a NEW CREATURE now makes me one according to the ELECTION OF GRACE.I'm saved by GRACE,(Christ's works on the Cross) not by Election!




---kathr4453 on 4/3/12


Calvinists want to be JACOB. How pitiful. God Loved Jacob, and will always love Jacob, who was renamed Israel,had 12 sons making up the physical descendents of Israel.

However, "IN ISAAC" WILL THY SEED BE CALLED. We're the CALLED. The Church is the CALLED. Christ is the Seed. Scripture does not teach, "In Jacob will thy seed be elect to Grace". This is all in their confused unlearned imagination.

So even preaching the Gospel to a JEW one must take them to Galatians, to teach the true meaning of salvation BY GRACE, not election. Jacob is not even ONCE mentioned in Galatians NOR is Romans 9-11 taught in Galatians concerning GRACE.

Why then would anyone take a Gentile to Romans 9-11 to prove Grace?
---kathr4453 on 4/3/12


"The Church did not replace the promises to the NATION Israel."

Replaced? Who says anything about replacing? This is the promise of salvation according to Paul, "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9:6-8

Here Paul says, just because you are born a Jew does not make you a "child of God". One can only become a "child of God" through ADOPTION. Which simply means, if God did not promise you to His Son Jesus Christ (via election) - you're not going to be "born of the Spirit" and you're definitely heading the other direction.

Plain and simple.
---christan on 4/3/12




Christan, thank you for your quotes. According to the New Testament, believing Jews and believing Gentiles are now one. The two combined are "Abrahams seed" (Gal. 3:29). This is "the Israel of God" (Gal. 6:15,16). The "mystery" has been accomplished by our Messiah's painful passion. He did it. When He died, He demolished the wall. Now think about it. Should this Christians here gather theological bricks and rebuild the wall Jesus Christ died to abolish? Wouldn't this be an "anti-Christ" thing to do? Well many here are doing it. They don't realize that what was spoken in the Old T. by God, was fulfilled by Jesus Christ who is God in His divinity.
---Mark_V. on 4/3/12


Have you ever had a boss who micromanaged every move you made? Always pointing our your failures and shortcomings? Well, Israel did. God. God so micro-managed Israel, through the LAW, it was hard to bare. NO ONE could measure up. Everyone fell short. WE KNEW IT. No total depravity with us. Yet we knew and were taught God would send someone who WOULD measure up. Our Messiah redeemer.

Then our Messiah redeemr came...John said to US, Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of Israel.... Oh OH ...that isn't what it says. John said concerning the whole world, Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of THE WORLD.

Funny how the early Church being Jews wanted to EXCLUDE Gentiles.
---kathr4453 on 4/3/12


1 Timothy 2:3,4 - "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

The question is does "ALL MEN" mean EVERY soul? Here's where we use other Scriptures to determine who "ALL MEN" is referred to, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, THAT OF ALL which HE HATH GIVEN ME I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day." John 6:39 - and some mock eternal security.

Clearly, "ALL MEN" specifically points to those whom the "Father has given to His Son" - the elect. Jacob was elected, Esau was not.
---christan on 4/3/12


//The Church did not replace the promises to the NATION Israel. !
---
True, but that is the problem with some of our more prominent and influential pastors today.

However, the same still like to preach OT tithing.

Romans 11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means!

11:25 Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
---lee1538 on 4/2/12


"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
Romans 9:6-8

The "chosen nation of Israel" was the concealment of the "church" in the OT. Like the "lamb" was concealing "Jesus Christ". It's clearly revealed by Paul above that only those "born of the Spirit" belongs to the Body of Christ.
---christan on 4/2/12




\\Many are called, but few are chosen.
[few are chosen---elect] Not all believers are 'the elect'.
Many - called children of light-but not all are called and chosen-----Elect.
Chosen - Before the foundation of the world. Rom 1:20-21, Eph1,Romans 9\\
---char on 4/2/12

! ! ! W O W ! ! !

That's the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth !!
---James_L on 4/2/12


//Blogger96, here is where I know you intentions are not godly at all. Here you challenge not Christan words, but God's//--MarkV

Could the same be said for a person who denies that Gods desire is for all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth? (1 Tim 2:4)

As well as all the scripture that declare Christ died for the whole world and for all men and not just an select few (1 Tim 2:6, 1 Jn 2:2, 2 Peter 3:9, Col 1:28,29, 1 Tim 4:10 and many many others..)

When a mans reasoning becomes the core around which he bends the holy scriptures, that man is in deception.
---Blogger9680 on 4/2/12


The Church did not replace the promises to the NATION Israel. !
---kathr4453 on 4/2/12

Amen...and Proof:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon ... went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, ...

Rom_1:16 ...power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom_2:9, 10

but i will say that the Nation Israel is the population of his remnant that is circumcised in the heart and not a nation made of physical borders.
---aka on 4/2/12


//The Church did not replace the promises to the NATION Israel. !
---kathr4453 on 4/2/12//
You are so right, but few believe it.
---michael_e on 4/2/12


Many are called, but few are chosen.
[few are chosen---elect] Not all believers are 'the elect'.
Many - called children of light-but not all are called and chosen-----Elect.
Chosen - Before the foundation of the world. Rom 1:20-21, Eph1,Romans 9

[Generation]

1Pet 2 (all)
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people, that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light,
---char on 4/2/12


//Election has nothing to do with being chosen to go to heaven.
---James_L on 3/31/12///----Agree.

//The Church did not replace the promises to the NATION Israel. !
---kathr4453 on 4/2/12///----Agree.

Blessings to you both.
---char on 4/2/12


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"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

Did God loved Jacob because he did something good or Esau evil? Two verse prior, "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth." A clear and explicit statement of unconditional election is clarified. Case closed.

But to the unbeliever, they twist and turn Scripture all over BUT it still does not change the context of Romans 9 that God has elected individuals unconditionally. They will say exactly what Paul anticipated, "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid."
---christan on 4/2/12


"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." What power was God demonstrating He had over? EVIL! He created evil in the form of Pharaoh and destroyed it. Is that so hard to believe?

It shouldn't, if you have faith from God. Solomon declared explicitly, "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." and in Isaiah "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid."
---christan on 4/2/12


When I was saved, finding myself in a calvinistic church, I was told, because I was a JEW, I was not saved, or part of the Church. That God had done away with Israel.

God allowed that to happen( I now know) for a reason, to teach me the truth. I never doubted my salvation, but wondered what part of God's plan of salvation I belong to, the church, or the furture promises to Israel.

WOW what a 30 + year long education and still learning.

The CHURCH AGE made up of both Jew and Gentile, making ONE NEW MAN in Christ HIS BODY, who will reigh and rule WITH Christ when those promises to the nation of Israel are brought to pass.

The Church did not replace the promises to the NATION Israel. !
---kathr4453 on 4/2/12


God did not reject Esau because he sold his birthright according to the above verse! God simply just rejected him and made him a vessel of dishonor fitted for destruction because He's God. Problem?

---christan on 4/2/

Really christan, WHERE is that in scripture. Esau is not Egypt or Pharoah. Cris crossing verses again? WHERE did God show any POWER in destroying Edom? God said He would BLESS them. God also dsaid He would bless Ishmael's descendents as well.

Edom, the descendents of Esau, if you look up the History, became part of Israel. TODAY there is no EDOM.
---kathr4453 on 4/2/12


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The birthright was given to Jacob.
"And the Lord said to her,
"Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body, One people shall be stronger than the other' And the old shall serve the younger" Don't you know what a birthright means?
---Mark_V. on 4/2/12

The BIRTHRIGHT of what MarkV..the Birhtright to be rebirthed?

Do you know what birthright means??

NOONE has a RIGHT to be Born Again.

However this BIRTHRIGHT has to do with that first given to Abraham, then Isaac, and then Jacob to bring IN THE MESSIAH...not one's own new birht.

Yes, we certainly CAN QUESTION YOUR interpretation of scripture, meaning YOU did not write it...only took it out of context!
---kathr4453 on 4/2/12


The sad part here is this. Benny Hinn also puts anyone in fear of blaspheming teh Holy Spirit if Benny Hinn's doctrine or Benny Hinn is questioned. Calvinists are also kept in fear of ever realizing it is OK TO QUESTION. God doesn't want us in fear of asking or questioning. He wants us to KNOW that we know that we KNOW, and if we ask Him 1000000 times to show us this or that, He does WITH LOVE, and NEVER does He threaten us.

We need to pray for our calvinists people here who are IN BONDAGE and have been since John Calvin murdered anyone who questioned anything he taught. Satan has them in a stronghold, and now they want to pass that on to you.

Don't buy into that. It's a lie from HELL!
---kathr4453 on 4/2/12


I AM a remnant according to the election of GRACE, being a Jew.

And because I am a Jew who this applies to, I ASKED the Lord many years ago to explain this to me.

I know the reason you calvinists hate me so much is because I am a thorn in your side. I being conflict to your doctrine. I troube you. So rather than LISTEN and learning, you would rather I just go away.

I really feel so sorry for you. continually telling me I'm not saved, as though you have the power to just do away with me. You hold no such power.

I AM a REMNANT of Israel Saved according to the Election of GRACE!

Now I do know you, lee and christan will coem back with all sorts of anti-semitic sarcastic comments...TO YOUR OWN DESTRUCTION!!
---kathr4453 on 4/2/12


Election,
(Mark 13:20) "For the elect's sake, "whom He chose" He shortened those days (at the destruction of Jerusalem).

(1 Thess. 1:4) "Knowing brethren, beloved of God, your election"

(Rom. 8:33) "The election obtained it, and the rest were hardened"

(Rom. 8:33) "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect?"

(Titus 1:1) "Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect"

(1 Peter 1:1) " Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect"

(Rom. 11:5) " Even so at the present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace"
---Mark_V. on 4/2/12


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Nor is there any scripture stating the depraved unelect predestined for Hell fire will SERVE the Elect.

However lee, there are several verses stating JESUS was/is teh ONLY ELECT of God, and any who receive HIM, will automatically become THROUGH CHRIST, the Elect.

You make it sound like you as an individual was elected. OR are you saying before you were even born you were ALREADY in Christ?

PROVE THAT! Prove you pre-existed before the foundation of the world! Mormons believe they did!
---kathr4453 on 4/2/12


Blogger96, here is where I know you intentions are not godly at all. Here you challenge not Christan words, "but God's
Don't you realize that the writer of Scripture was not speaking for himself in (Gen. 25:22-24) but was giving the very words of God? You are questioning the Words of God. Don't you recognize how far you are willing to go? The birthright was given to Jacob.
"And the Lord said to her,
"Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body, One people shall be stronger than the other' And the old shall serve the younger"
Don't you know what a birthright means?
---Mark_V. on 4/2/12


"Esau never served Jacob. Have you ever stopped to think about that?"

How do you know? It's better for you not to call yourself a Christian then "challenge" the Word of God, thinking you are challenging me. I didn't write the Holy Bible, the Spirit of God did.

When you make remarks like the one you did and "challenge" the Word of God, you put yourself in full view of God's wrath. Calling me a liar if I have lied is the right thing to do, but calling God a liar when He declared to Rebecca as written in Genesis 25:23, "And the elder shall serve the younger" isn't a very wise thing to do. It's your own soul you're playing with, not mine.
---christan on 4/2/12


Christan, Esau never served Jacob. Have you ever stopped to think about that?

I challenge you to find one place where the MAN Esau was a servant to the MAN Jacob ("the elder shall serve the younger"). The ball is in your court now. Don't disappoint us.
---Blogger9680 on 4/2/12


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James (from "Faith Or Salvation First")

Ive noticed that Paul tends to shift topics quite often in the middle of what the KJV considers a "chapter".

For instance Romans 1-3:20 where Paul is proving all men equally guilty under the law and then in the middle of the chapter starts explaining the way to be made righteous (3:21). Youd expect that to be the start of a new chapter, but its not.

Ive gotten to where I only use chapter and verse as a quick reference and avoid thinking of each chapter as a specific topic
---CraigA on 4/2/12


The election of God in salvation is clear and precised, UNCONDITIONAL as declared by Paul,

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth." Romans 9:11

God did not reject Esau because he sold his birthright according to the above verse! God simply just rejected him and made him a vessel of dishonor fitted for destruction because He's God. Problem?

Romans 9 DOESN'T teach the election of a a nation but of an individual, which pertains to salvation. Formulating one's own theory of election does not change the context of Romans 9 one bit.
---christan on 4/2/12


Craig, in (1 Cor. 9:19-27) Read the context. Has nothing to do with being elect to run a race in order to be saved. They were already participants (believers) spreading the gospel as he was.

James, the inheritance of the believers is the kingdom of God. Where he will have eternal life. "Then the king will say to those on His right hand, "Come" you blessed of My Father, Inherit" the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matt. 25:34) Christ is the source of the believers divine inheritance.
"In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, "being predestined" according to the purpose of Him who works all thing according to the counsel of His will"
---Mark_V. on 4/2/12


James L, when a president is "elected" doesn't that mean to you he was chosen by the people to be the next president?

MarkV, every president that has been elected was running the race for the presidency

1 Cor 9:24
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
---CraigA on 4/1/12


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Mark V,

Elect means chosen. You are abusing scripture by saying that God elected people to go to heaven. NOWHERE does scripture say that. You are forcing that onto the text.

Jacob was chosen over Esau for what? AN INHERITANCE. Read the account of why Esau sold his BIRTHRIGHT

Isaac was chosen over Ishmael for what? INHERITANCE. Read Abraham's concern that Eliezer would be his heir.

Israel was chosen for what? INHERITANCE of the promised land

To Possess Something That Was Given By Inheritance

The Prodigal son received his inheritance, and then squandered it. And then he was received after his inheritance was gone. He was still in the family, but with no inheritance
---James_L on 4/1/12


According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved." Ephesians 1:4-6

"Us" in this verse are those who believe and are baptized
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved,

It is not that God has choosen perticular individaula to be saved and the rest to be lost
---francis on 4/1/12


James L, when a president is "elected" doesn't that mean to you he was chosen by the people to be the next president? In the same way God has elected certain people to salvation and this was done before the foundation of the world, before there was even such a thing as time. And all those whom He chose, are known by God.
"To those who are the called according to His purpose, for whom He foreknows, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. "And moreover whom He predestined, these He also called, whom He called, these He also justified, and whom He justified, these He also glorified" (Rom. 8:28-30).
---Mark_V. on 4/1/12


"Election has nothing to do with being chosen to go to heaven." JamesL

"According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved." Ephesians 1:4-6

These verses speak about where the "elect" are going, heaven. Where else do those found in Christ go?

I don't think, but I dare say you "don't read or comprehend well, are a liar and a slanderer". Your words, not mine.
---christan on 4/1/12


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Rev 21:8
But for the cowardly...and ALL LIARS, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone...
---James_L on 4/1/12


\\This is eternal security! You deny this because you're a 'free-willer' which makes you still "dead in your sins and trespasses".\\
---christan

I don't deny the eternal security of the saints. I think you either:
a) don't read or comprehend well
b) are a liar and a slanderer
c) would argue that the earth is flat if I said it's round
or
d) all the above

\\The "foreknowns" points clearly to the elect! Paul speaks explicitly about them in the next chapter.\\
---christan

I agree also with that. What I don't agree with you about is what it means to be elect.

Election has nothing to do with being chosen to go to heaven.
---James_L on 3/31/12


2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new."

The key, "in Christ", there is no other absolute. John 15:6 "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered, and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
John 15:10 "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love, even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."

The devil said "cast thyself down: for it is written". "Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."
---nana on 3/31/12


"Romans 8 is not the place to find support for the doctrine of eternal security." JamesL

You are right, because Romans 8 is the conclusion gathered from Jesus teachings in John 6:37,39/10:28,29/17:2,6,9,24 - which is clear that the doctrine of eternal security is only found in Him. Christ's death saved only "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." This is eternal security! You deny this because you're a 'free-willer' which makes you still "dead in your sins and trespasses".

The "foreknowns" points clearly to the elect! Paul speaks explicitly about them in the next chapter.
---christan on 3/31/12


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Doctrine Of Election Scriptures
What scriptural verses are used to support the doctrine of election?
---lee1538 on 3/16/12
There are no scriptures that say God has beforehand choosen those whom he will save, while the rest are choosen to die.

We know that God knows who will be saved because he i sthe Alpha and Omega, He knows the begining from the end.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

John 3:15 whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


---francis on 3/31/12


James L, thanks for your answer. I was not defending eternal security, but defending the everlasting love of God for the elect, found in (Romans 8:31-39), and those who speak against the elect.

concerning eternal security, I believe everyone who believes in "free will" of man, believe they can lose their salvation. Since they earned it, because they permitted Christ to come into their hearts, they can lose it by telling Him to leave, they think.
---Mark_V. on 3/31/12


Mark V,
Romans 8 is not the place to find support for the doctrine of eternal security.

If you look at the context, it is that some are foreknown as heirs, and are thereby chosen to suffer with Christ and share in the inheritance. At the end of the chapter is a great promise that during our times of suffering, God has not abandoned us.

Even though I believe the saints are eternally secure forever, and that one who is born again cannot be un-born again, Romans 8 has nothing to do with eternal security
---James_L on 3/31/12


Many suggest that the Elect can be lost once they are saved even though God chose them from the foundation of the world. Suggesting they can lose their salvation by something they do or not do. Just nonsense.
"Who shall bring a charge against God's elect?" many of you do. When "it is God who justifies." and says, "Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God" (Romans 8:33,34).
"Who also make intercession for "us" ( the elect) Who shall separate "us" (the elect) from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword"
---Mark_V. on 3/31/12


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Nana,
Inheriting the Kingdom is for those who suffer with Christ (Mark 10:35-41, Heb 2:9-10, Rom 8:17, Rev 3:21, 2Tim 2)

Grant that we may sit, one on your right, and one on your left, In Your "glory"

Are you able to drink the cup that I drink (suffer)

But to sit on my right or left, this is not mine to give - it is for those for whom it has been prepared


Why isn't it for Jesus to give? Because He is the recipient

Heb 2:9-10
Jesus was crowned with "glory" because He suffered. This is HIS inheritance, which Heb 1:14 calls "salvation"

Rev 3:21 only those who overcome will sit with Him.

Rom 8:17
We are joint-heirs with Christ IF we suffer with Him
---James_L on 3/27/12


doesn't mean cut off from going to heaven,

If your parents cut you off from an inheritance, or cut you out of their will, does that mean they're going to throw you into a bonfire?
---James_L on 3/26/12

Of course your earthly parents won't throw you in a bonfire, but when they cut you off of inheritance or will you have nothing, dead to them! And when your Heavenly Father cuts you off your inheritance, which is Heaven and if no Heaven then where are you?

"for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live"( Romans 8:12-13)

"For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you."( Romans 11:21)
---Ruben on 3/27/12


Totally disagree with James L.

Hebrews 3:17 "But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?"

Romans 11:24, 'natural branches' by the wayside, branches without a tree. What the Lord say about them?
John 15:6 "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered, and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

"Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?"
1 Corinthians 6:9 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?"
---Nana on 3/27/12


Ruben,

if you read Romans chapters 8 thru 11, you will see that election had nothing to do with going to heaven. Election means "chosen to be the recipient of an inheritance"

Being cut off doesn't mean cut off from going to heaven, it means cut off from an inheritance.

Have you never heard the terms in relation to an inheritance? Cut off, cut out, etc.

If your parents cut you off from an inheritance, or cut you out of their will, does that mean they're going to throw you into a bonfire?
---James_L on 3/26/12


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"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed" The seed are the "elect." It's a big difference.
---Mark_V. on 3/25/12

And look what you tells the 'elect'

"Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

"For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity, but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off"

Romans 11:20-22
---Ruben on 3/26/12


The first election is when God elected to create man in his shape and give man the gift of election, to either elect God onto righteousness, or else elect sin onto death. Animate and Adam elected to eat of the forbidden fruit onto death. And then God elected to offer a sacrifice which mankind can elect to accept onto salvation, or else elect to reject onto damnation.
---Eloy on 3/25/12


Ruben, that is the difference between you and I. I have faith in the hope that is in Christ and believe in His promise. He is my assurance. You have hope in the RCC Church and its leaders from it. You do a lot of works to gain what you cannot gain. We are saved by grace through faith. "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed" The seed are the "elect." It's a big difference.
---Mark_V. on 3/25/12


nana,

add Exo_32:33 and Rev_3:5.

believe.
---aka on 3/24/12


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nana,

add Exo_32:33 and Rev_3:5.

believe.

election is part of covenant, and not vice versa.
---aka on 3/24/12


I disagree with "elected to believe" . Romans 9:29 references Isaiah 1:9.

Even our Lord Jesus said, John 8:29 "And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone, for I do always those things that please him."
Isaiah 1:2 "Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me."
They did not do correctly before God, please read the chapter.
Isaiah 1:25 "And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:"

After purging, the remnant are the believers and the doers, compare Romans 11:4.
---Nana on 3/24/12


Has anyone ever considered the possibility that those who "first trusted Christ" (ie. the saints) refers to believing Jews that were indeed elected to belief in Christ?(Eph 1:11-13)(Col 1:25-29)

Doesnt Romans say that if God hadnt reserved a remnant of Jews for himself they would have become like Sodom and Gomorrah (9:29)?

Who would have spread the gospel had NOONE believed?

From that perspective, it would certainly explain how election has been blown way out of proportion. From what I read some Jews were elected to belief so that the gospel of Christ could be proclaimed to the world. In my opinion, Romans 9 has been grossly misinterpreted.

I think Ill start a blog where we can discuss that chapter.
---Blogger9680 on 3/23/12


Michael_R//Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,...

The verses speaks to those who would come into the knowledge of the truth of forgiveness through the once for all sacrifice of Christ on the Cross but yet seek forgiveness through the Jewish sacrificial system.

Hebrews was written to Jews who were tempted to go back to Old Covenant dispensaton.

It does not address those whose salvation is secure in Christ.

Those that pitch the view that salvation is in our hands, that we can lose it, really have an agenda to exploit others to their own benefit.
---lee1538 on 3/23/12


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Romans 11. All men are adopted and some are broken off of their own doing.
Romans 11:7_8 "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for, but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear,) unto this day."

What election which hath obtained it? Romans 11:4. And v9, David speaks of "recompence". Election as well as OSAS blow out the window!
Just being 'elected' to attend the party does not guarantee staying:
Matthew 22:12 "And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment?"
---Nana on 3/23/12


The so-called doctrine of election is easily shown false through a number of scriptures. But one in particular that is extremely hard to dispute is Hebrews 10:26-29. If you read this scripture, it is CLEARLY talking about someone who was saved and "santified" and then turned from that and continued sinning. The result was that there was no forgiveness.
---Michael_R on 3/23/12


Ruben, you have no clue why all the warnings do you? When you become a child of God how do you know what things are wrong and what things are right? And we know them by studying His word and when we read," don't do that," God is warning us not to step where we are told not to step. With the help of the Spirit of Christ, the Word is the means God uses to sanctify us believers through this life while we are still in the flesh which has not been redeemed yet.
---Mark_V. on 3/23/12

And God is going to be telling the elect 'don't do that ' to the very end! " Those who endure till the end will be saved" And guess what Mark, you and I will not know if we in fact are the elect until the End:)
---Ruben on 3/23/12


Ruben, you have no clue why all the warnings do you? When you become a child of God how do you know what things are wrong and what things are right? By God's Word. Not only is God's Word the means of salvation, but the way God speaks and teaches every believer. If you were saved, and needed to learn nothing, then you would be perfect. No one is perfect, they need to know the ways of God. And we know them by studying His word and when we read," don't do that," God is warning us not to step where we are told not to step. With the help of the Spirit of Christ, the Word is the means God uses to sanctify us believers through this life while we are still in the flesh which has not been redeemed yet.
---Mark_V. on 3/23/12


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Ruben, you wrote a lot, none disputes God's Election. You gave: ""Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience."(Eph 5:5-6)"
That's true, the children of disobedience are not going to heaven, so don't let anyone deceive you . If you are deceived, they won't make it in.
---Mark_V. on 3/21/12

Mark,

He is talking to believers, so why warn them?

"Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children" (Eph 5:1)

"But fornication and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is fitting among saints."(Eph 5:3)
---Ruben on 3/22/12


In the Arminian view of election God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based on His foreknowledge as to who would respond to His call. Election was therefore determined by or conditioned upon what man would do.

The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to whom would be elected unto salvation.

God chose those whom He knew would of their own free will choose Christ. Thus the sinners choice of Christ not God's choice of the sinner is the ultimate cause of salvation.
---lee1538 on 3/22/12


We are all chosen but few accept. God gave His life for man....not a few men. No one can show me that in God's Word. We are all predestined to be saved if all will accept.
---shira4368 on 3/22/12


francis, whosoever will believe will be saved. No question about that. You have to believe in order to be saved.

Ruben, you wrote a lot, none disputes God's Election. You gave: ""Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience."(Eph 5:5-6)"
That's true, the children of disobedience are not going to heaven, so don't let anyone deceive you they do, deceive of what? because of this things, what are they? that no fornicater, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, (remember that one about Idols) has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God" If you are deceived, they won't make it in.
---Mark_V. on 3/21/12


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christan* "BUT YE ARE A CHOSEN GENERATION," 1 Peter 2:9

And these same chosen geberation are told :

" and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that oby not the gospel of God ? "( 1 Peter 4:17-18)

christan* Nothing nothing can be clearer about election than,Esphesians 1:4

Provided:

"Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience."(Eph 5:5-6)

christan* And election is unconditional," BUT OF HIM THAT CALLETH" Romans 9:11"

Really:

"Who will render to every man according to his deeds:"(Romans 2:6)
---Ruben on 3/19/12


Romans 9:4 "Who are Israelites, to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises,"
Romans 11:23 "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."

Thay were adopted who were not a people unto God. They became his people but in time some fell off. Even on that account the other nations were allowed to partake as children in the adoption.

Apparently there is no election or re-election for those dwelling or falling in unbelief?

Romans 11:20_22.
---Nana on 3/19/12


My understanding of " doctrine of election." is that only those who are elect fo God will be saved. My understanding of that doctrine is that only some people are choosen by God to be saved, the rest cannot and will not be saved. I may be wrong in my understanding of that doctrine.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

This tells me that God did not make some people just to burn them up, and make some just to save them
WHOSOEVER WILL may be saved
---francis on 3/19/12


Lee1538 said:"If we are sinless, then we really do not need our Savior,..."

But on the contrary we are sinless because of Christ our savior. In Christ we are, holy (Rom 11:16) and sanctified (Heb10:10).

Christ's ONE sacrifice purged us of sin, being better than the yearly sacrifices. But your doctrine says we're still in sin regardless Christ's ONE sacrifice. How is that possible?
Jesus set us free from sin (John8:36) so why teach we're not free?

Your ambiguous definition of sin is why your in error.
But using God's definitions of sin we see why scriptures confirm we're not sinners.
Scripture confirms scripture but the doctrine you quote from commentaries is not supported by scripture.


---Haz27 on 3/19/12


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Lee, the question about election horrifies so many. And hear this, it does not horrify the unbelievers. For they know not God. But those who say they do, it scares them, so they get angry. They do not want anyone to take their rights away, including God. Under the Old Covenant of works, they could not be saved by their own works (what they call free will), what makes them think they can under the New Covenant? Under the Old and New Covenant they were saved by God's Grace. Those that God has chosen (elected) He will call, and draw them to Himself. He will change their hearts of stone, and cause them to walk in His statues. They don't want God to have that right. And this are supposely Christians. The enmity against God is still there.
---Mark_V. on 3/19/12


Haz27 //Where does a professing Christian stand if they still "sin" when it's ONLY their PAST sins that were dealt (Rom 3:25).

The genuine Christian (one born of His Spirit) who sins (does something contrary to God's will) is one that may come under God's correction and maybe even discipline. Hebrews 12:6f

We do NOT become robots after we become Christians.

If we are sinless, then we really do not need our Savior, nor will there be any sanctification or need for discipline.

The testimony of the saints has not so as hinted that we can be sinless while in the flesh. However we are counted as righteous only because of the righteousness that is in Christ Jesus.
---lee1538 on 3/18/12


Because of humanity's total depravity, God of necessity, in eternity past, chose certain people to be saved.

God was totally free in His decision to show grace and mercy to some sinners who deserved nothing but His wrath. This is, in essence, the doctrine of Unconditional Election.

Scriptural Support:
Deuteronomy 7:6-10, 15, 9:5, 29:4, Psalm 65:4, Isaiah 45:4, Mark 13:20, John 1:13, 6:44, 65, 15:16, 17:2, Acts 2:39, 9:1-18, 11:17, 16:14, 18:27, Romans 8:28-30, 9:10-26, 10:20, 11:5, Ephesians 1:1-11, 1 Corinthians 1:1, 2 Corinthians 4:6, Philippians 1:29, 1 Thessalonians 1:2-4, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 2 Timothy 1:9, 2:10, 19, 25, Titus 3:5, Hebrews 9:15, James 1:18, Jude 1.
---lee1538 on 3/17/12


Amen Christian. God has elected you and me and a couple a others around here to be saved. We had no choice. God did it. Everyone else is an unclean vessel and will burn in the fire.
---Pat.pat on 3/17/12


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"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" (Romans 9:21) This supports that God is our Potter, that we are not our own masters.

"But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet from the heart you obeyed that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." (Romans 6:17) This supports that the credit is to God, that we chose to turn to Jesus. The glory and honor and praise is not to our own selves choosing on our own >

> "from the heart" we obeyed. But our hearts were "deceitful above all things" . . . "desperately wicked" (in Jeremiah 17:9). Our wicked hearts didn't decide to want to please God.
---willie_c: on 3/17/12


Gen 1:1 to Rev 22:21.

it is important for us to not self-elect, but leave the vote to Whom it belongs.
---aka on 3/17/12


A "doctrine of election," would be supported by the following verses. "God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, ""LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? What was the Father's response to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Having predestined [the elect] to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." Rom 11:2-5> Rom 11:5
---Josef on 3/17/12


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