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Discipline Church Members

Does the church have a right to discipline members that are clearly living a sinful lifestyle? If so, what should this discipline be - denial of the sacraments?

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 ---lee1538 on 3/16/12
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Jesus did not keep the sabbath. " And for this reason did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. And on this sabbath day Jesus said: "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath. My Father works up to here, and I work." Keeping the sabbath day is not salvation, but keeping Jesus is salvation. Sabbath-keeping is an abolished O.T. Law. We are not in the old testament law, but the New Testament Law. After the Galatians were set free through Christ, they tried to go back and keep the o.t. Law again, and Paul corrected them- Please Read Galatians 4:9-11,21-26,30,31+ 5:1,4,9,18.
---Eloy on 4/4/12


\A christian is one who follows JESUS CHRIST, you know: live as christ lived: keep the sabbath, does not eat what is unclean and such.\\

And by your own standards, francis, if you don't walk on water, YOU are not following Christ, either.
---Cluny on 4/4/12

If that the 11th commandments?
thou shall walk on water

Do not neglecct the scriptures:
Revelation 14:12 here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
---francis on 4/4/12


Jerky //Give us the exact quotes where the early records of the pagan church fathers called Sunday the Lord's Day.

[We have seen how former adherents of the ancient customs have since attained to a new hope, so that they have given up keeping the sabbath, and now order their lives by the Lord's Day instead (the day when life first dawned for us, thanks to Him and His death.)]

Ignatius (~95 AD), To the Magnesians, chapter 9[11]

Ignatius was a student of John the Apostle so it is obvious that observance of the Jewish sabbath was NOT taught in the early Gentile church.

Of course, you may argue that if olde Ellen White had lived in those days, she could have straighten the Lord's Apostles out on this matter.
---lee1538 on 4/4/12


\\A christian is one who follows JESUS CHRIST, you know: live as christ lived: keep the sabbath, does not eat what is unclean and such.\\

And by your own standards, francis, if you don't walk on water, YOU are not following Christ, either.

You have no idea how I pray for your salvation and you will become a Christian.
---Cluny on 4/4/12


---Cluny on 4/3/12

A christian is one who follows JESUS CHRIST, you know: live as christ lived: keep the sabbath, does not eat what is unclean and such.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

I am not sure whom you are follwing but if you are eating what you please, and not keeping the sabbath you are not following christ
---francis on 4/4/12




Leest: "In nearly all the early records, the Lord's day is the day of the resurrection."

OK, I'll call your bluff. Give us the exact quotes where the "early records" of the pagan "church fathers" called Sunday the "Lord's Day". Then explain to us how these mere mortals have the authority to change God's Laws. We'll be waiting!


---jerry6593 on 4/4/12


Clunity: "Have you ever thought that Hitler would have made the perfect SDA?"

Then why did he exterminate SDAs along with the Jews? Oh, that's right, you and Leest hate Jews as well. Have you ever thought that you and Leest would have made perfect Nazis?"


"The Greek word is KYRIAKI"

No it's not! It's "kuriakos". KYRIAKI is a greek girl's name.


---jerry6593 on 4/4/12


\\ANd you too cluny can be a christian if you deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Jesus
---francis on 4/3/12\\

As I've been doing for going on 50 years.

When will YOU start, francis?

All I see you do on these blogs is affirm yourself.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/3/12


\\What is it in THE BIBLE?
---
The only reference to the Lord's day in the Bible is Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lords day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Since every writer in the first and second century that we know of, believed the Lord's day was Sunday - the day of the resurrection, there is really no other logical conclusion that can be drawn except that the Lord's day is Sunday.

As mentioned before, Adventism has practically no support in early church history for any of their indyocrascies.
---lee1538 on 4/3/12


Have you ever thought that Hitler would have made the perfect SDA?

He didn't smoke, didn't drink, didn't eat pork, and didn't worship on Sunday.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/3/12

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Yes Hitler would have been a good christain just like anyone else, all he had to do with deny himself take up his cross and follow Jesus.


ANd you too cluny can be a christian if you deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Jesus
---francis on 4/3/12




//He (Hitler) didn't smoke, didn't drink, didn't eat pork, and didn't worship on Sunday.

Yes, and he did not run around with women either, but what would disqualify him from being an SDA is he did not do the Sabbath thing but considered Saturday as just another workday like all Gentiles did outside of Palestine during the first century.

And Jerky would refuse to accept the fact that the main enemies of Jesus were the law promoting Sabbath keepers.
---lee1538 on 4/3/12


\\What is it in THE BIBLE?
---francis on 4/3/12\\

The Greek word is KYRIAKI.

Have you ever thought that Hitler would have made the perfect SDA?

He didn't smoke, didn't drink, didn't eat pork, and didn't worship on Sunday.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/3/12


In nearly all the early records, the Lord's day is the day of the resurrection.
---lee1538 on 4/3/12

What is it in THE BIBLE?
---francis on 4/3/12


//The Bible says that the seventh day Sabbath is the Lord's day. ... That's OK, the Pope agrees with you.

In nearly all the early records, the Lord's day is the day of the resurrection.

While the Pope may agree so does everyone else that reads early church history.

As stated before, Adventist beliefs have no or little support in the early church which to a very large extend held that faith once and for all delivered to the saints - Jude 3.

Jerry, I have little or no interest in whether you toot you horn on Saturday or any other day of the week. Accordng to Romans 14 you have that option. Sorry you have no convincing argument that the chruch need heed strictly Jewish laws.
---lee1538 on 4/3/12


Leest: "Sunday, however, being the Lord's day "

The Bible says that the seventh day Sabbath is the Lord's day. Can you give any biblical reference where the first day of the week is called the Lord's day? I didn't think so. That's OK, the Pope agrees with you.



---jerry6593 on 4/3/12


francis//the question is: Does your church teach " TEN COMMANDMENTS" or " NINE COMMANDMENTS"
---
Unlike your Adventists my church teaches people to follow Jesus and to abide in Him, not the 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, or 1 commandments as we are not a legalist type of church that believes one has to earn ones salvation. If we love one another, we fulfill ALL the law.

Do we love the Lord, Yes as we constantly seek to minister to the needs of others.
---lee1538 on 4/2/12


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francis//does your church teach " TEN COMMANDMENTS" or " NINE COMMANDMENTS"
---
The fact is the church is NOT under the Old Covenant and there is NO commandment found in the New Testament that tells us to observe any day as holy. And that would also include Sunday.

However, I sense you are not really a typical Adventist but more liken to those that belonged to the former Church of God under Herbert W. Armstrong- a cult with similar beliefs to Adventism.

Observing the Jewish feasts as well as the Sabbath, has no real meaning unless you are a Jew. Perhaps you would have more FUN if you joined a Messianic congregation! Think of it, you could beat your breast and brag about how religious you are.
---lee1538 on 4/2/12


The church I go to believes the love of neighbor fulfills the law Romans 13:9-10
---lee1538 on 4/2/12

That is not the question

the question is: Does your church teach " TEN COMMANDMENTS" or " NINE COMMANDMENTS"
---francis on 4/2/12


//So In your church it is the NINE COMMANDMENTS and not 10 commandments?

The church I go to believes the love of neighbor fulfills the law Romans 13:9-10

And they believe as has His church for the past 20 centuries that strictly Jewish laws like the Sabbath, dietary laws, etc. were for imposed on His church.

We are saved by the shed blood of Jesus the Christ on the Cross, not by the doctrine advocated by those whose beliefs were not found in the faith once for all delievered to the saints. Jude 3.

Now Francis that you have the truth, are you able to acknowledge it or you still in bondage to sin?
---lee1538 on 4/2/12


Jerry bird says- I guess the disciples of Jesus didn't get the memo.

Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments, and rested the SABBATH day according to the COMMANDMENT.
----
Anyone not shackled with religion should be able to tell you the early church did not initially understand the significance of its Easter experience and continued to operate in the same old worn grooves of Judaism.

However, a decision had to be made as to what would make Gentile converts legit and that was Gentiles need not convert to Judaism and observe laws that were strictly Jewish. Acts 15.

Why do you continue to ignore the truth? Too stuck in the tarpits of false religion?
---lee1538 on 4/2/12


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//But all christians acknowledge the ten commandments
---
Not at all true, since the Sabbath was not commanded in the New Testament nor did the early church teach it.
---lee1538 on 4/1/12

So In your church it is the NINE COMMANDMENTS and not 10 commandments?

take some time to read yur own doctrine. do they teach the TEN COMMANDMENTS or the NINE

I am very interedted in knowing. Please post where you church teaches THE NINE COMMANDMENTS for me please
---francis on 4/2/12


Leest: " the Sabbath was not commanded in the New Testament "

I guess the disciples of Jesus didn't get the memo.

Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments, and rested the SABBATH day according to the COMMANDMENT.
---jerry6593 on 4/2/12


Francis - Yes, I can see where you are coming from with your religion, but like the Jews you have chosen to wear the gowns of religion. As you observe the various feasts and the majority of SDA do not, you may fit better into a messianic congregation.
---lee1538 on 3/31/12

Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

That is what this verse is about. People may if they choose obseve all the feast days. It is not about the sabbath of the ten commandments.

Which church do you know of who teaches the NINE COMMANDMENTS?

can you not see the hypocracy that they ALL claim 10 but only teach nine?
---francis on 4/1/12


Francis - Yes, I can see where you are coming from with your religion, but like the Jews you have chosen to wear the gowns of religion. As you observe the various feasts and the majority of SDA do not, you may fit better into a messianic congregation.

//But all christians acknowledge the ten commandments
---
Not at all true, since the Sabbath was not commanded in the New Testament nor did the early church teach it.

But why should I really care what horn you chose to blow?
---lee1538 on 4/1/12


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Ever read Romans 14?
---lee1538 on 3/31/12

Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

I myself am very partial and pationate towards the feasts of God. I look forward each year, (and for me the year starts with the new moon in March Exodus 12:2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.)

I look forward to Passover, feast of unleavened bread, Pentecost, day of atonement, feast of Booths, and all of them.

Other SDAs are not partial to them "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

But all christians acknowledge the ten commandments
---francis on 4/1/12


Sunday, however, being the Lord's day is the day chosen by the early church for communal worship.
---lee1538 on 3/31/12

Your early church is a different church that what is in the bible.

"early church" started at pentecost and continued with sabbath as day of communial worship:
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made, and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
---francis on 4/1/12


Leest: "Sunday, however, being the Lord's day "

The Bible says that the seventh day Sabbath is the Lord's day. Can you give any biblical reference where the first day of the week is called the Lord's day? I didn't think so. That's OK, the Pope agrees with you.


---jerry6593 on 4/1/12


francis//You can choose to believe that the 7th day is and always we be the sabbath or you can believe a lie that says sunday is the christian sabbath
---
yes indeed you cannot convince me either from scripture or from church history that sunday is the Christian Sabbath as scripture is very very very very clear that one need not observe any day as holy. Ever read Romans 14?

Sunday, however, being the Lord's day is the day chosen by the early church for communal worship.

So sorry Francis but if the Jewish Sabbath were required of Christians, we would most certainly see it in the Epistles and taught in the early church. But Adventists have virtually NOTHING from early church history to support their bad doctrinal views.
---lee1538 on 3/31/12


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---lee1538 on 3/31/12
A survey of the Christian literature of the second century bears out that by the time of Hadrian most Christians assumed an attitude of reconciliation toward the empire, but toward the Jews they adopted a policy of radical differentiation

Such circumstances invited Christians to develop a new identity, not only characterized by a negative attitude toward Jews, but also by the substitution of characteristic Jewish religious customs for new ones. These would serve to make the Roman authorities aware that the Christians, as Marcel Simon emphasizes, "liberated from any tie with the religion of Israel and the land of Palestine, represented for the empire irreproachable subjects." (53) CPT 8
---francis on 3/31/12


Samuele Bacchiocchi wrote =This corroborates our contention that Sunday became the day of rest and worship NOT by virtue of an apostolic precept but rather by ecclesiastical authority exercised particularly by the Church of Rome (CPT 10).

The greatest weakness in his book according to nearly all reviewers is that he failed to make any convicting argument that church of Rome really had any influence enough to affect any worldwide decision regarding the church as early as 135 AD.

Thus the only convincing conclusion that can be made is that the Apostles and their immediate successors did NOT teach Sabbath observance.

Sorry Francis but your lead balloon will not fly.
---lee1538 on 3/31/12


2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

You can choose to believe that the 7th day is and always we be the sabbath or you can believe a lie that says sunday is the christian sabbath
---francis on 3/31/12


Sunday as that rest depicted by the Sabbath is fulfilled by those who have believed and thus have entered into that rest that typified by the Creation rest
---lee1538 on 3/31/12

CREATION REST: in six days God created heaven and earth and RESTED on th 7th. If your theology is true, this would now make the FIRST day the day of rest: That is not theological, or logical, That God rested before he created

Second and more important First day is NOT given by God as a day of rest to those who beleive. That is unmbiblical.

First day is not even given as day to remember the death and resurrection of Jesus. It is through baptism and the Lord's supper we remember his death and resurrection
---francis on 3/31/12


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God is the same yesterday, today and forever. His nature, character and attributes never change. ---Mark_V. on 3/31/12

In this CONTEXT it is Hi DOCTRINE that does not change. Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Be not carried about with divers and strange DOCTRINES.


Francis will not accept the correct interpretation of this verse as he desperately wants to believe that God never changes any of His laws ----lee1538 on 3/31/12

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till everything be fulfilled.
---francis on 3/31/12


>the Jewish Sabbath was no longer observed by the majority of churches by 135 AD
---lee1538 on 3/30/12
You got this from Samuele Bacchiocchi

Actually, he said nothing of the sort. 135 AD is when the changeover began. Most Christians still kept the sabbath at least as late as the 5th century.
---David_J._Conklin on 3/31/12


the Jewish Sabbath was no longer observed by the majority of churches by 135 AD
---lee1538 on 3/30/12
You got this from Samuele Bacchiocchi who in the very same book wrote:

This corroborates our contention that Sunday became the day of rest and worship NOT by virtue of an apostolic precept but rather by ecclesiastical authority exercised particularly by the Church of Rome (CPT 10)

So once again you are WRONG to say that it must have been taught by the apostles in jerusalem conference, and the bible is right:
Daniel 7:23 The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth,..and he shall.. think to change times and laws:

This attempted change came just as the bible prophecied, from ROME the 4th beast
---francis on 3/31/12


Francis//What is the most likely source of an attempted change is Gods laws and times: Jesus, the apostles, the church, or the fourth beast(ROME)
---
But the truth is that the Lord did not change the Sabbath from Saturday to the Lord's Day - Sunday as that rest depicted by the Sabbath is fulfilled by those who have believed and thus have entered into that rest that typified by the Creation rest. Hebrews 4.

The Bible as much as you hate to admit, does not mandate believers observe any day as holy. That much is very very very very plain in Romans 14.
---lee1538 on 3/31/12


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//Lee, your correct, God is the same yesterday, today and forever. His nature, character and attributes never change.

Francis will not accept the correct interpretation of this verse as he desperately wants to believe that God never changes any of His laws - that the OT laws are still in effect.

But he willfully ignores the scripture in order to promote the view that one cannot be saved without observing the Jewish Sabbath.

To the Adventists, Jesus lied when He said He is able to save one to the utmost that trust in Him. Hebrews 7,25.
---lee1538 on 3/31/12


Lee, your correct, God is the same yesterday, today and forever. His nature, character and attributes never change. Also the law was fulfilled by Christ, for no other person could fulfill it. This speaks of fulfillment in the same sense that prophecy is fulfilled. Christ was indicating that He is the fulfillment of the law in all its aspects. He fulfilled the moral law by keeping it perfectly. He fulfilled the ceremonial law by being the embodiment of everything the law's types and symbols pointed to. And He fulfilled the judicial law by personifying God's perfect justice. "Till all is fulfilled" Here Christ was affirming the utter ierrancy and absolute authority of the O.T. as the Word of God -down to the least jot and tittle.
---Mark_V. on 3/31/12


Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Daniel 7:23 The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth,..and he shall.. think to change times and laws:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:

What is the most likely source of an attempted change is Gods laws and times: Jesus, the apostles, the church, or the fourth beast(ROME)
---francis on 3/31/12


Francis//Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

No one disagrees Jesus never changes, however, He does deal with His creation in terms of Covenants. And anyone who can read can all too easily see the New Covenant is different than the Old covenant made at Mt. Sinai. The Christians need no longer become circumcised (Acts 15) and there was a change in the priesthood (Hebr 7:12).

Also we can believe that since the Jewish Sabbath was no longer observed by the majority of churches by 135 AD there is really no other conclusion that can be made than that the Jerusalem council did not mandate strictly Jewish laws to Gentile believers.

So your view is much like a lead balloon - it will not fly.
---lee1538 on 3/30/12


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Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Daniel 7:23 The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth,..and he shall.. think to change times and laws:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:

What is the most likely source of an attempted change is Gods laws and times: Jesus, the apostles, the church, or the fourth beast(ROME)
---francis on 3/29/12


//That the church chagred people money for sins.

That was the old method of exploitation but now the modern method is to teach tithing - an OT means of support for the Levitical priesthood and the Temple.
Since Adventism teaches OT tithing they exploit people.

//POINT: HISTORY IS NOT DOCTRINE. Point is that we learn what the Apostles and their immediate successors taught in the early church. And guess what? They did not teach Sabbath observance as clearly history tells us that the Sabbath was no longer observed by 135 AD. Sorry but many Adventist church historians are on the side of truth when it comes to this issue.

When are you people going to accept the truth?


---lee1538 on 3/29/12


Francis //One thing christianity is NOT, is a departure from the roots. It is FED from the roots
---
The branches that have been grafted in have borne a much different fruit than what the roots previous supported.

It is a pity that there are those who still identify with the branch that was cut off.

They are the legalists who like Jews before them seek to be justified by the law much like the law promoting Sabbath keeping Pharisees that Christ had to deal with.
---lee1538 on 3/29/12


One truism is that people simply do not learn from history. And that is very true of those whose doctrine differs drastically from what the Apostles & their immediate successors taught.

If Adventists today knew what transpired during the 1844 hysteria, they would hung their heads in shame and seek to guide their denomination onto a more Biblical track.

And if they really knew more about olde Ellen White, they would ditch her and burn her writings much like those at Ephesus that burned their books on sorcery.
---lee1538 on 3/29/12


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Everyone would have to agree.
He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Most of all, he didnt!
---TheSeg on 3/17/12

Just thought this was worth repeating.
---Jed on 3/29/12


Howbeit, it is all too easy to see from history that -
---lee1538 on 3/29/12
That the church chagred people money for sins.
POINT: HISTORY IS NOT DOCTRINE

True but the tree on top may look considerably different that the old tree that was cut down. ---lee1538 on 3/29/12

TREE WAS NEVER CUT DOWN.
TREE REMAINS

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches (JEWS) be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree( GENTILES), wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree, Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
---francis on 3/29/12


Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

Some jews who did not believe
that Jesus was the christ was broken off, and believing
gentiles were grafted in

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God,

One thing christianity is NOT, is a departure from the roots. It is FED from the roots
---francis on 3/29/12


francis//Why do you not believe that the early church started at pentecost
---
yes, the birth of the Church was at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came upon those in the upper room.

Howbeit, it is all too easy to see from history that -

"the church, at first, had not worked out the full implications of its Easter experience, and to a great extent, merely ran on in the well-worn grooves of Jewish piety' (p 121, From Sabbath to Lord's Day, edited by DA Carson).

From scripture alone we see that truth as a decision had to be made at the Jerusalem council as to what was expected of Gentile converts.

Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple,...
---lee1538 on 3/29/12


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//We cannot depart from the roots:

True but the tree on top may look considerably different that the old tree that was cut down. With the Spirit of Christ among them like no before we can certainly say that.

In forestry, if one plant is grafted into another, the result may very well be a tree of a different variety as well as bear a different fruit. And that is why we see a different fruit in the market place as was there never before.
---lee1538 on 3/29/12


David_J._Conklin//Then these unnamed SDA historians are sadly misinformed. Most Christians even as late as the 5th century were still keeping the Sabbath.
---
One SDA church historian and theologian at Andrews University was Dr. Samuele Bacchiochhi "From Sabbath to Sunday". He writes that while he is in agreement with Ellen White on some issues, he differs as to when Sunday worship started. His research (which can be verified by historical records) revealed that Sunday worship was the majority for the church by 135 AD.

Of course if you believe Ellen White like the Mormons do Joseph Smith, doubtful if the truth can reach you.
---lee1538 on 3/29/12


Francis - Yes, Adventists want badly to believe that Christianity was but an extension of Judaism.

But clearly, there was beginning a transition from Judaism to the Christian faith.

Acts 6:14 For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.

Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

And if we were to view the 2d century, we would see less of Jewish religious tenets, including the fact the church no longer observed the Sabbath, nor the dietary laws.
---lee1538 on 3/29/12


And in doing that we can see that there was a departure from its Jewish roots
---lee1538 on 3/29/12

We cannot depart from the roots:
Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.



Why do you not believe that the early church started at pentecost
---francis on 3/29/12


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While we can agree that the book of Acts was written sometime during the first century (~60 AD), the question remains as to what was decreed at the Jerusalem council Acts 15.
---lee1538 on 3/29/12

JUST READ IT
Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things,

Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
---francis on 3/29/12


>The Sabbath was one of them as we read even from SDA historians that the church primarily outside of Palestine was no longer observed by 135 AD.

Then these unnamed SDA historians are sadly misinformed. Most Christians even as late as the 5th century were still keeping the Sabbath.
---David_J._Conklin on 3/29/12


//Early church" cannot be the second century when the book of Acts of the postles speak of the church.

While we can agree that the book of Acts was written sometime during the first century (~60 AD), the question remains as to what was decreed at the Jerusalem council Acts 15.

The only way we can tell is to view the earliest writings of the successors to the Apostles as to what was taught and believed in the church by the second century.

All the evidence points to the fact that the church separated itself from Judaism and its unique tenets.
---lee1538 on 3/29/12


francis//So let me ask you this simple question:

Not sure if I understand your question.

But we rely on the findings of church historians to tell us what the early church believed.

And in doing that we can see that there was a departure from its Jewish roots starting with the establishment of Gentile churches in which most if not all, of the unique tenets of Judaism were no longer taught or observed. The Sabbath was one of them as we read even from SDA historians that the church primarily outside of Palestine was no longer observed by 135 AD. If that being true, then we are left with the conclusion that the Apostles & their immediate successors did not teach distinctive Jewish laws.

---lee1538 on 3/29/12


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The fact is if we are to interpret the Bible properly we must determine what the early church believed. ---lee1538 on 3/28/12

No mater how youlook at it. "Early church" cannot be the second century when the book of Acts of the postles speak of the church.

"Early Chuch" has to be just that, early church: which started lets say at Pentecost

To say the early church started after all the apostles died, is to deceive yourself, since the bible speaks about churches /congregations started by the Apostles.

So let me ask you this simple question:

WHy do you think, or do you think the early church did not start at Pentecost, but rather after the apostles died?
---francis on 3/29/12


Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Daniel 7:23 The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth,..and he shall.. think to change times and laws:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:

What is the most likely source of an attempted change is Gods laws and times: Jesus, His disciples, his church, or the fourth beast(ROME)
---francis on 3/29/12


//, you would never look 2 centuries down the line for MAJORITY practice, you would look to the bible.

The fact is if we are to interpret the Bible properly we must determine what the early church believed. And if the majority of the saints believed in something, there is a good probability that their teachings were carried downward from the Apostles and their immediate successors.

No I can never become an Adventist as I see far too many exegetical problems with their distinctive beliefs. The worst being the basis for the justification of believers, the least being the observance of the Jewish Sabbath.
---lee1538 on 3/28/12


//That is why you read so much SDA literature

My library is also full of books on Roman catholicism, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, as well as those of Seventh Day Adventists.

And I have dozens of commentaries on the books of the Bible as well as on different theological concepts.

In a sense, I am a theology junkie and love to study it from as many different views as possible.

Yes, my obsessive is with the truth as found in the Bible as well as what is found in the saints of His church.

---lee1538 on 3/28/12


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My obsessive is really the truth of the Bible, not that of joining a cult that preaches a different Jesus and another gospel.
---lee1538 on 3/27/12

Your obsessiveness ( AND I AM GLAD YOU ADMIT IT) is not with the truth of the bible. IF it was with bible truth, you would never look 2 centuries down the line for MAJORITY practice, you would look to the bible.

Truth be told, deep down you want to leave your denomination and be a SDA.

That is why you read so much SDA literature

I WELCOME YOU WITH OPEN ARMS OX OX Romans 16:16 an holy kiss.
---francis on 3/27/12


//you will realize that deep down you want to be a SDA.

The problem is if that were true, then how does one get around all that bad bad bad theology as promoted by Adventism and Ellen G. White?

My obsessive is really the truth of the Bible, not that of joining a cult that preaches a different Jesus and another gospel.
---lee1538 on 3/27/12


The problem is that you really do not have the freedom to have any other interpretation of the Bible than that which Ellen has provided.
---lee1538 on 3/26/12
You are too obsessed with ELLEN WHITE AND ADA

God back to my ORIGINAL POST. I gave NO INTERPRETATIONS AT ALL.

I am not sure how you see SDA and E G WHITE in every scripture, but I am glad that SDA is the very first thought you have when you see scripture


If you get professional help, you will realize that deep down you want to be a SDA.

I WELCOME YOU WITH OPEN ARMS XO XO
---francis on 3/27/12


1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

I would bet my last dollar if we were to rebuke anyone publically, they would never be seen in your church ever again.

//I quoted ONLY FROM THE BIBLE

So do Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Episcoplians, etc.

The problem is that you really do not have the freedom to have any other interpretation of the Bible than that which Ellen has provided.

Try to tell your church, as many former pastors have done, that you believe the SDA Investigative Judgment theory is simply hogwash which it is and see what happens to you.

They would probably throw a brick in your face and hope you will begin to act like olde Ellen White.
---lee1538 on 3/26/12


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1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

---
And you need to remember that olde Ellen White was rebuked and kicked out of a church that preached the gospel.

Why do you follow false prophets?
---lee1538 on 3/25/12
LOL LOL I told you before you are OBSESSED WITH SDA that you cannot see clearly.

I quoted ONLY FROM THE BIBLE
yet you see SDA and ELLEN WHITE IN THAT

GOOD FOR YOU
you have an INFERIORITY COMPLEX

GET HELP SOON
---francis on 3/25/12


//Does the church have a right to discipline members that are clearly living a sinful lifestyle?
---lee1538 on 3/16/12
1 Cor 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Cor 5:5 is NOT your verse Francis as is testifies to the effect that one can be saved even if in sin.

//Matthew 18:17 but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

---
And you need to remember that olde Ellen White was rebuked and kicked out of a church that preached the gospel.

Why do you follow false prophets?
---lee1538 on 3/25/12


Does the church have a right to discipline members that are clearly living a sinful lifestyle?
---lee1538 on 3/16/12
1 Cor 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Cor 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner, with such an one no not to eat.

1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Matthew 18:17 but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
---francis on 3/25/12


They need to get saved. Give an altar call. Or be bolder and call out the sins that they are committing, like anouncing, "The Spirit is showing me that there is someone here today that is in bondage to __________. And none of us should be in bondage to sin. If you are feeling that you need to be set free from sin, and would like to have a richer relationship and closer walk with the Lord Jesus, then please come up front here to be prayed for and receive a touch from God.
---Eloy on 3/25/12


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Now,do know most pentecostal churches will explain,warn or If they know 1of their own,bad lifestyle they will "quietly"motion
don't take the sacrament.the spanish church.they explain for this cause,some get ill,even die!
---ELENA on 3/24/12


//Jesus Christ's obedient church is commanded to discipline one who keeps on doing what is wrong. And the obedient are already doing this.

Totally agree! We had one individual in our church that wanted a divorce. He said he was tired of being married. They had 2 children.

The lady appealed to the church elders, it was investigated and they kicked the guy out of the church.

We can still hear the howls from those that disagreed with that decision.
---lee1538 on 3/17/12


Jesus Christ's obedient church is commanded to discipline one who keeps on doing what is wrong. And the obedient are already doing this.

But in history we see how false apostolic succession people did not discipline and remove wrong leaders. There were leaders of groups who were violent to ones who did not agree with them, though Peter plainly says, "nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

Christ's approved leaders are obedient and are how Paul describes in 1 Timothy 3:1-10. And we are commanded, "Obey those who rule over you," in Hebrews 13:17. So, we must find and obey those who are qualified.
---willie_c: on 3/17/12


Matthew18:15,16,17 If your brother sins against you,only you show him his fault. If he doesn't listen take 1 or 2 to establish it in the mouths of 2 or 3 witnesses. Only after that fails do you take it before the church,if that fails treat him as a pagan or tax collector. However,the Bible tells us 1 John 5:16 if anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death,he should pray and God will give him life. Sinners can't take the bread and wine in church anyway,its forbidden. If sinning in church its the Pastor and Deacons who should handle it. If its a Brother-in-Christ we should love and minister to that one and try to pull them back to God. Without allowing sinners in church how can they be saved?
---Darlene_1 on 3/17/12


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Everyone would have to agree.
He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Most of all, he didnt!
---TheSeg on 3/17/12


Christian. That's what I meant. I agree.
---Pat.pat on 3/16/12


"Paul says turn them over to satan for the destruction of the flesh. So that's what you should do." Pat.pat

So then, everyone in the congregation of God should be handed over to Satan, right? For all have sinned.

That particular teaching by Paul in 1 Corinthians 5:5 must be read in proper context from verse 1 which was the discipline about fornication of an unheard level, "It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife."

So, handing one over to satan is when the sinner is unrepentent toward God.
---christan on 3/16/12


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