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Sin And Our Standing

If we as Christians sin, what then is our standing with the Lord?

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 ---lee1538 on 3/18/12
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Haz: Jesus came to save Lee from the Law - not from his sin. He is comfortable in them.


---jerry6593 on 3/26/12


lee1538 said: "Perhaps you feel that since we are not under the law we can do whatever we wish as such would not be considered a sin?"

Correct we are not under the law, hence we cannot be judged/accused of transgressing it (sin).
And no, there is nothing in what I said to you suggesting that we can do whatever we like now.
Although Christians may still do wrong at times they won't profit by it. God disciplines us.

And regarding 1John3:9 and the "habitual sin" version of it, clearly your struggling and unable to find any scripture to support this doctrine. Please stop trusting in man and consider that God is truly telling us that being born of God we cannot sin 1John3:9
---Haz27 on 3/26/12


lee1538: the definition of sin you gave was: "The traditional view of sin is simply "missing the mark".
This is a general, non-specific definition which, as you revealed, can mean anything not in the will of God.
The scriptural definitions I use are SPECIFIC.

You quote Gal 2:17 but then leave out verse 18 describing how going under the law makes you a sinner. We need to keep scripture in context.
Likewise you take 1John1:8 out of context.

Eph 2:8-10 is irrelevant to my stance. Your point on this suggests you don't understand my message.

If you believe 1John3:9 speaks of "habitual sin" then why have you been unable to justify it with other scripture?
---Haz27 on 3/25/12


//We both refer to different definitions of sin. I refer to scriptural definitions whilst you have made up your own general, non-specific definition.

You must not know how to read as my definition of sin comes directly from the Bible. Try reading my posts again.

Hebrews 10:26 is about those who believe that sin can only be forgiven by the Jewish sacrificial system instead of what Christ did on the Cross.

Your attempt to reduce our salvation and walk to our performance instead of the work of God's Spirit in our lives. Ever read Ephesians 2:8-10?

As to 1 John 3:9, I accept what the Greek tells us that it is the practice of sin that is condemned.
---lee1538 on 3/25/12


Haz27 Consider the fact that Paul even considered the view that we could be found guilty of being sinners.

Galatians 2:17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not!

Perhaps you feel that since we are not under the law we can do whatever we wish as such would not be considered a sin?

You really need to identify with reality of this issue as scripture is very plain that 'if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us' 1 John 1:8.
---lee1538 on 3/25/12




lee1538: We both refer to different definitions of sin. I refer to scriptural definitions whilst you have made up your own general, non-specific definition.
Try using just scripture only.

I agree Christians still have to be wary of temptation to sin (scriptural definitions). BUT, if any sin we see the results in Heb 10:26.
The warnings we see against sin in the Bible is commonly over going under the law (like SDAs do). This is unbelief, establishing righteousness through the law instead of Christ.

As for the wrong behaviours that Christians obviously do, this is not sin as defined in scripture.

Have you re-considered the error of the "habitual" sin version of 1John3:9?
---Haz27 on 3/25/12


Mark_V said: "you have to die to stop sinning"

We have died.
Rom 6:6 "our old man is crucified with him"
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ, I no longer live but Christ lives in me.

Rom 6:7 "he that is DEAD id FREED from sin"

Mark_V you have not been able to offer any scripture to support your argument. Maybe it's time to consider what scripture says. Christians cannot sin, 1John3:9
---Haz27 on 3/25/12


Haz27 //Romans (8,9)But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, ...

In everyday terms we could say -

But you (who are Christians) are not in the flesh - under the full influence of its corrupt desires and passions, if you are under the direction and influence of the Holy Spirit. (Barnes notes)

And Christians can quench as well as grieve the Holy Spirit.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you (Christians) were sealed for the day of redemption.

1Th 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit.

And we grieve or quench Gods Spirit when we sin or choose to disobey.
---lee1538 on 3/25/12


Haz27//Scripture confirms scripture and nothing supports the habitual sin doctrine. In fact we see it's contrary to the gospel of Christ.

What I do see is when we become a genuine Christian our old sin nature is dealt a death blow, and we no longer need be enslaved or subject to it.

To say we are sinless would imply we are no longer subject to temptation. Adam and Eve did not have a sin nature, but they bowed to temptation. It is the same with us, we can give in to temptation and sin.

As to Christians being sinless, is the sky blue? It is too easy to see even the best of Christian occasionaly sin.

Your view is based upon your interpretation of scripture,however, you are ignoring reality. And that is your problem.
---lee1538 on 3/25/12


lee1538: Can you now see that the "habitual sin" doctrine is flawed? Scripture confirms scripture and nothing supports the "habitual sin" doctrine. In fact we see it's contrary to the gospel of Christ.

Rom 6:2 you miss the point. It asks "HOW shall we that are DEAD to sin, live in it any longer?"
The answer this question CLEARLY implies, and which is supported in scripture, is we CAN'T sin in Christ.

Man's traditions contradict Rom 6:2 saying the opposite, that we STILL sin in spite of the cross. And the fact that the flawed and scripturally unsupported doctrine of "habitual sin" was created to explain away 1John3:9 (Christians CANNOT sin) shows why we should trust in God and not man.
---Haz27 on 3/25/12




Haz, you did not read the passages clearly. If you continue to say you are without sin, you are calling God a liar. Period. No truth is in you, the word is not in you.
You said,
"We know that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And that is our undeniable PAST"

It is a present state of everyone in the whole earth. All come short of the glory of God. You still hold on to your flesh, the flesh still sins, so you still sin. Your body has not been glorified yet. Right now you have to die to stop sinning. Haz, please stop the nonsense. It would do you good not to call God a liar.
---Mark_V. on 3/25/12


Haz27 //John 8:36 says Therefore if the Son makes you free (from sin). you shall be FREE indeed".

Yes indeed the Son sets us free from the bondage or slavery to sin.

//Rom 6:7:"He that is DEAD is FREED from sin".

Yes sin is no longer our master as we are not in bondage to sin any longer. Like the woman whose husband died we are free from the law that binds us.(7:2f)

//Rom 6:2 asks "HOW shall we that are DEAD to sin, live in it any longer?"

(6:1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Yes Paul would not have said that if he felt we had a license to sin even if we are under grace.
---lee1538 on 3/24/12


Lee1538:John 8:36 says Therefore if the Son makes you free (from sin). you shall be FREE indeed".

Rom 6:7:"He that is DEAD is FREED from sin".

Rom 6:2 asks "HOW shall we that are DEAD to sin, live in it any longer?"

And 1John3:9: "he CANNOT sin, because he is born of God"

Obviously man's traditional doctrines contradict scripture, claiming Christians remain in sin inspite of the cross.

Whilst many Christians are true believers, merely misusing the word "sin" hence misunderstanding scripture, others preach condemnation declaring that if you slip up once too often (habitual sin) your lost.
The habitual sin doctrine is contrary to the gospel of Christ.

---Haz27 on 3/24/12


Lee1538: God's gives us definitions of sin in scripture. Avoiding them will only lead you into error and discredit your argument that Christians are still sinners in spite of the cross.

Although you confidently believe 1John3:9 refers to "habitual" sin you clearly don't know what habitual sin is. I suggest you reconsider this vague doctrine. And it throws peoples salvation into doubt. It's similar to SDA doctrine.

Scripture confirms scripture but you have none to support your doctrine. Even Rom 7, whilst speaking of our battle, only one can rule. Either Flesh or Spirit. And Christians are NOT in the flesh (Rom 8:9).
---Haz27 on 3/24/12


Can you show me where a Child of God(believer) is called a sinner?
---JIM on 3/23/12


Jim
That's not the purpose of the Bible, that's the purpose of the Law.(Romans 3:20)
Is someone who lies, a liar?
Is someone who steals, a thief?
Is someone who kills a murder?
Aren't the Liar, Thief and murderer, sinner's?
---David on 3/24/12


While 1 John 3:4 speaks of sin as being the transgression of law, sin can be more than just that. We sin if we favor the rich over the poor (James 2). We sin if we have the means to help others but do not. Such is often referred to as a sin of omission. Sin may be failure to show love.

When is sin considered habitual? I quoted from my Holman Christian Standard Study Bible which stated "believers confess when they sin, but their lives are NOT characterized by sin (1:7-9, 5:16-18)". So if ones life is characterized by sin, it is habitual.

Yes, scripture confirms scripture and that has been my point on this issue. And Romans 7 does confirm the fact that since we have a struggle in the flesh we may sin. (7:23)
---lee1538 on 3/24/12


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Lee1538: If your so confident that 1John3:9 means "habitual", "practicing" sin for Christians then this view should be able to be justified.

What sin is 1John3:9 referring to? Is it "transgression of the law" as mentioned in 1John 3:4? Or is it something else?

What extent of sinning is "habitual"?
For example if Christian X looks lustfully at another occasionally throughout their life whilst his mate Christian Z lives daily in adultery is either/both of them in habitual sin?

Scripture confirms scripture so what supports this habitual sin doctrine?

These questions need to be answered for your habitual sin doctrine to be able to stand.
---Haz27 on 3/23/12


Mark_V, you misunderstand scripture.
1John1:10 "if we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar" is not a problem for the Christians spoken of in 1John3:9, being born of God and cannot sin.

We know that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And that is our undeniable PAST. And as Rom 3:25 shows our PAST sins have been remitted, now that we are in Christ. And in Christ we are holy (Rom 11:16), sanctified (Heb 10:10), perfected (Heb 10:14) and cannot sin because his seed is in us (1John3:9).

As you can see above, clearly we do not say God is a liar as you falsely allege.
---Haz27 on 3/23/12


lee1538//The traditional view of sin is simply "missing the mark",

lee....the biblical definition is "devoted to sin", not free from sin, wicked.
Let me ask you lee...Are you someone who is wicked and devoted to sin?
---JIM on 3/23/12


lee...sorry, i jumped the gun. you are correct in the def. of sin. I was looking at "sinner". I apologize. My mistake.
---JIM on 3/23/12


Jim //lee....the biblical definition is "devoted to sin", not free from sin, wicked.

Totally disagree, however, 1 John does address the view that those who are "devoted to sin" or habitually sin, really do not possess the truth. I believe the Greek as well as other scripture supports this view.

//Let me ask you lee...Are you someone who is wicked and devoted to sin?
---
I would undoubtly not survived very long in the various ministries I have been involved in over the years if I were someone that is wicked or devoted to sin. However my judge is the Lord.
---lee1538 on 3/23/12


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lee1538//The traditional view of sin is simply "missing the mark",

lee....the biblical definition is "devoted to sin", not free from sin, wicked.
Let me ask you lee...Are you someone who is wicked and devoted to sin?
---JIM on 3/23/12


David.....we have been justified(made righteous) through faith in Christ. It is through this faith that we have forgiveness of sin. When God looks upon a believer He see the righteousness of Christ. You should put a little more faith in what Christ did for you if you are a believer.
Faith here is knowing that Christ paid the price for your sins and that without Him you have no hope.
---JIM on 3/23/12


Haz27//We both use very different definitions of "sin".

The traditional view of sin is simply "missing the mark", or more specifically, anything that is contrary to God's will. That could mean more than just transgressing some defined law.

Your view that Christians do not sin is totally contrary to the testimony of the saints as for nearly 2,000 years as they anguished over their sinfulness.

And it is just too easy to see sin in peoples lives including those that truly love and strive to follow the Lord in all areas of their lives.

The danger of your view is that it promotes the hypocrisy that we too often see in those who are Christians but do not live lives that are impeccable.
---lee1538 on 3/23/12


Haz27//You said: "I do not believe the translators are incorrect."Yet you contradict yourself by rejecting Bible translations that state Christians "cannot sin".

I do not reject these translations but realize that all translations have their strengths and weaknesses.

While some versions state 1 John 3:9 as "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

I realize such a verse must be interpreted in light of other verses of scripture (esp. Romans 7).

And that tells me that those who belong to the Lord do sin but do not make a practice of sinning.

It is really a matter of using good sense.
---lee1538 on 3/23/12


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David....can you show me where a Child of God(believer) is called a sinner? Or, where is a saint called a sinner?
---JIM on 3/23/12


Lee1538: You said: "I do not believe the translators are incorrect."
Yet you contradict yourself by rejecting Bible translations that state Christians "cannot sin".

Your unusual interpretation of 1Pet 4:18 was purely from the view that Christians sin. That method is hardly being open to the truth.

We both use very different definitions of "sin". You make up your own definition which could mean anything whereas I use scriptural definitions.
Scripture confirms scripture, but if your going to make up your own definitions of sin then you will be in error having to resort to rejecting inconvenient bible translations and referring to man's commentaries/traditions to support your doctrine.

---Haz27 on 3/22/12


Just because a believer sins, that does not make him a sinner. Believers are not slaves to sin, but slaves to righteousness
---JIM on 3/22/12


Jim
One must conclude from your statement here, that not only is the believer not called a sinner, but that a believer sins are now seen as righteousness before God.

Is this your contention?
---David on 3/23/12


Haz, don't you worry about calling God a liar? You show no fear of God. That is one of the worst condemnation in all Scripture. The very same writer you say believers don't sin, clearly makes the worst statement against anyone who claims he does not sin. Not one passage in the O or N. Testament makes that charge. Calling God a liar to the whole world here on CN, you might as well give your soul to the devil. Just because you don't understand something clearly, you set yourself up calling God a liar. That is an explicit statement. A fact. I would rather change my thinking real quick. Eloy has been calling God a liar for a long time to the world. With no fear of God. I would rather have something else misinterpreted then calling God a liar.
---Mark_V. on 3/23/12


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\\1John 3:9....When you get into an issue of this nature, it is better to go back to the Greek\\
---lee1538 on 3/22/12

Ok, let's do that.

pas o gegennemenos ek tou theou amartian ou poiei oti sperma autou en auto menei kai ou duvatai oti ek tou theou gegennetai

It says

All the ones who have been born of God do not sin

because His seed stays in him (or Him, see **note**)

and he is not able to sin because he has been born from God

** Note ** can be translated variously:
"His(God's) seed(Spirit) stays in him(man)
or
"His(God's) seed(children) stays in Him (God)

the verse clearly says that we are not able to sin
---James_L on 3/22/12


Lee1538:You asked: "what do you do when you screw up and commit sin?"
Answer: Read my previous posts with God's definitions of sin.

As for 1John3:9, NAS version, my source was Biblegateway.
"and he cannot sin, because he is born of God".

Your argument lacks scriptural support. As a result you make references outside of scripture to mans traditions/commentaries. Can you see the problem?

And your argument for "habitual sin" has too many unanswered questions. What other scripture supports this habitual sin doctrine? What extent of sin determines "habitual"? What sin is 1John3:9 speaking of?

Can you please explain this "habitual sin" doctrine.



---Haz27 on 3/22/12


Haz27//Lee1538: Your trust in man is leading you into error.

I do not believe the translators are incorrect.

You mentioned the Holman Christian standard. I have their study Bible and in the preface to 1 John I read " Believers confess when they sin, but their lives are not characterized by sin (1:7-9, 5:16-18)." This last verse speaks of the believer who sins. We also have the same in the ASV.

The NAS has 'practices sin' in 1 John 3:9

You need to check your sources again.

I do not believe the older version are really the best.

When you get into an issue of this nature, it is better to go back to the Greek and analyze the verse from that. The article by Lenski can help you there.
---lee1538 on 3/22/12


Haz27 //Do you suggest we toss out all these versions to match the doctrine of the men you place your trust in?
And what of those other scriptures in modern versions that still contradict your "sin" doctrine?
---
Not at all. Since becoming a Christians I have tried to read a different version each year.

However, it is important to interpret scripture with Scripture. If you say Christians do not sin, then you have a problem with Romans and other books of the Bible.

Answer me- what do you do when you screw up and commit sin? Go down front again and tell your pastor that your original conversion experience did not take? That God failed to cleanse you of all your sins? Get yourself saved again?
---lee1538 on 3/22/12


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Haz27 - 1 Peter 4:18 KJV And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

The good news is that the righteous aren't scarcely saved. We have an abundant, glorious salvation. Indeed, if the righteous WERE scarcely saved, then the ungodly and the sinner wouldn't have any chance at all.
---blogger8980 on 3/22/12


Haz27 - 1 Peter 4:18 KJV And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

The ungodly and the sinner are one and the same in this verse. The sinner being the irreverent, the Christless, impenitent, unbelieving, and unregenerate man.

The verse does not say the believer does not sin.

If it did, then we would have to conclude that no one would be saved, however, that negates salvation by grace for those who have believed.

The righteousness of Christ is credited to the believers account and we need not depend upon our own efforts to be justified.
---lee1538 on 3/22/12


Lee1538: Your trust in man is leading you into error.

Below are some Bible versions which support the KJV on 1John3:9.
Youngs literal Translation.
Wycliffe
New American Standard version
Lexham English Bible
Holman Christian Standard
Douay-Rheims American Edition
Darby Translation
Common English Bible
American Standard Version

Do you suggest we toss out all these versions to match the doctrine of the men you place your trust in?
And what of those other scriptures in modern versions that still contradict your "sin" doctrine?
---Haz27 on 3/22/12


Haz27 - PS. the article by Kyle Butt that deals with the Greek in the 3 Epistles of John by R. C. H. Lenski is from Apologetics Press.

If you accept only the KJV, then you have the problem of interpretation that will not match the testimony of the saints of His church, nor of reality in yourself, or that of Biblical exposition.

It is interesting that some beleive they can become sinless while still in the flesh as what do they do when they sin? Go down front and tell the pastor that the original confession did not take? So much foolishness!
---lee1538 on 3/22/12


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James L, what you are teaching is dualism. That you are not responsible for your sin. If you kill someone? who is responsible? You. Was it the Spirit of Christ in you? No. It was you. Your flesh killed the person, for the flesh has not been redeemed. Who else is responsible? Not Christ. you are. Or is there someone else in you? And who is that? did the devil make you do it?
Paul clearly admitted "the law is spiritual (Christ) and that he was carnal, sold under sin. (v. 7:14). What did Jesus say,
"He who is without sin among you, let him throw the first stone at her first" Jesus said, go and sin no more, to leave the life of sin she was in. I do know the Bema Seat, all believers go there. Their sins are burned.
---Mark_V. on 3/22/12


If born again people keep living through faith, there will be NO sin, ever....
We need to believe Christ came to put away sin. We are HIS Saints now. Sin is of satan(not our identity)but we are of Christ Jesus made perfect(sinless) forever before the Father.
Why are there some who refuse to believe the good news? The good news is being freed from sin through Christ. Any other news is NOT good.
---duane on 3/22/12


Lee1538: I suggest trust in God. Accept what scripture says instead of trusting in man with their commentaries/tradition, etc.
You seem to be suggesting that all Bible versions that do not support your doctrine should therefore be discarded.

And whilst modern Bible versions use ambiguous wording in 1John3:6-9, other scripture (in these same versions) like 1Pet 4:18 still clearly show that Christians are not sinners.

Your avoidance of definitions of sin from scripture only discredits your argument.

And that "habitual sin" doctrine you follow has so many blanks and unanswered questions, that it's clearly error. Scripture confirms scripture, but there's nothing supporting that "habitual sin" doctrine.
---Haz27 on 3/22/12


Haz27 //Lee1538: Christians are born of God and cannot sin, 1John3:9.

1 John 3:9ESV No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for Gods seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

There is an article by R.C.H. Lenski concerning the proper Greek transalation of these verses in 1 John. Suggest you goggle "Do Christians sin?" for the article written by Kyle Butt, M.A. on this issue.

I do not accept your translation or interpretation of these verses and neither does anyone that has done modern translations.
---lee1538 on 3/22/12


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David//Jesus tells us the sinner will not have eternal life in (John 8:34-35).
David...first thing you need to realize is that a believer is not a sinner. A believer is a Child of God. We were sinners.
Please re-read the prodigal son. Key word is "son". He was always a son, in the family. The parable is not called the prodigal sinner now is it.
Haz27..continue the good work.
---JIM on 3/22/12


Some people need to realize that a sinner is someone who is devoted to sin. Someone who is not free from sin.
Just because a believer sins, that does not make him a sinner. Believers are not slaves to sin, but slaves to righteousness. Romans 6 says that we(believers)have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God.
Some are lacking faith in the word of God.
---JIM on 3/22/12


The flesh is "you." ~MarkV

Not according to Jesus. John 3:3-7
You ARE flesh if you are not born of the Spirit. You say you are born of the Spirit. How can you then say you are flesh?
---blogger8980 on 3/22/12


Mark V,
You can use an accusatory "dualism" charge if you want, and that's ok. But the bible teaches a clear distinction between the spirit and the flesh.

Are you telling me that You don't believe Jesus when He said "The Spirit Is Willing, But The Flesh Is Weak" ??

Are you telling me that you don't believe we are born again currently?

Did I say we aren't responsible for deeds done in the flesh ? HELLO ? Bema Seat, Mark

I guess you believe we are responsible for our own sins, and that Christ died in vain?
---James_L on 3/22/12


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Lee1538: Christians are born of God and cannot sin, 1John3:9.

Using definitions of sin God provided in scripture (not man's ambiguous definitions) consider the following.
As a Christian do you commit the following sins?

Unbelief in Jesus (john16:9)?
No, you believe on Jesus

Unrighteousness (1John5:17)?
No, you are righteous in Christ.

Blasphemy of Holy Spirit (Mark:3:29)?
No.

Transgression of the law (1John3:4)?
No, you are not under the law (Rom 8:2, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9). And where there is no law there is no transgression (Rom 4:15).

In Christ there is no sin (1John3:5). In Christ we cannot sin, we are holy (Rom 11:16), sanctified (Heb 10:10), perfected (Heb 10:14).
---Haz27 on 3/21/12


What can I say, that the Bible hasn't already said?
---Mark_V. on 3/21/12

Mark
Jesus tells us the sinner will not have eternal life in (John 8:34-35).
Mark, doesn't it seem a little odd that though you are a follower of Jesus Christ, your doctrine is not supported by the Master's teaching's?

My friend, you may also want to read what is written in (2 Thessalonians 1:8). There you will find Jesus takes vengeance againt those who do not obey what he taught in his Gospels.
---David on 3/22/12


James, to argue you use "dualism" when you said,

"Oh, and by the way, verse 20 says that Paul is not the one sinning"

You suggest you can walk into a bank, kill everyone, but you didn't do it, you are not responsible.
The flesh is "you." And until you get rid of you, you will sin. You guys are sinning right now because the Truth is not in you. What is the Truth? Jesus Christ who doesn't sin, but you do. Paul was not teaching "dualism" which claims that they are not responsible for their sins the body is. Paul admitted he was responsible for His sin. (v.7:14). "For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin"
---Mark_V. on 3/22/12


lee1538: Can you see how that "habitual sin" doctrine you follow causes people to doubt their salvation? Also can you see it's similarity to SDA doctrine?

Have you noticed scripture always points to Christians NOT being sinners, but commentaries and man's traditions always give ambiguous reasons why Christians are still in sin in spite of the cross?
---Haz27 on 3/21/12


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\\I still do not see where you get the idea that Paul did not sin.\\
---lee1538 on 3/21/12

Paul says
"I joyfully concur with the Law of God in the INNER MAN"

"On The One Hand, I MYSELF with my mind am serving the Law of God,
but
On The Other Hand, WITH MY FLESH the law of sin"


Paul never spoke of an "outer man" because the man is INSIDE - the spirit. The flesh is a body of death.

He said "it is no longer I who do it" but sin which is in my body."

1John 3:9 says
He who is born of God CANNOT sin. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Look at the OT temple. Was sin allowed in the INNER sanctuary, where the glory of God dwelt?
---James_L on 3/21/12


James_L - quote Romans 7:20? You really need to read the verse in its context!

Romans 7:18-20 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Paul clearly states in verse 18 that in his flesh there is nothing good - "but how to perform that which is good I find not".

I still do not see where you get the idea that Paul did not sin.
---lee1538 on 3/21/12


Haz27 -Perhaps Matthew Pooles commentary on Romans 3:25 would be of help to you.

"For the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God, he means, either the sins committed before justification, while God bore so patiently with the sinner, and did not presently take the forfeiture, or else the sins committed under the Old Testament, before the proposed propitiation was exposed to the world, when God so indulged our fathers, as to pardon them upon the account of what was to come: see #Heb 9:15-18. "

That would make far more sense since we would have to conclude that all the testimonies of Christians since the birth of the Church were deceived as they all anguished over their sins.
---lee1538 on 3/21/12


lee1538: You say we're blind to sin and cast doubt on others salvation

Sin? My old man is crucified with Christ. And "he that is dead is FREED from sin", Rom 6:6.
So, "HOW shall we that are DEAD to sin live in it any longer?" Those born of God CANNOT sin, 1John3:9. Our PAST sins have been remitted, now there's no more sin.

Sadly it's that "habitual sin" doctrine you follow that casts doubt on others salvation. It claims if we slip up once too often we're lost, similar to SDAs. Thats NOT the gospel of Christ.

Read my posts below and ask yourself do you sin according to what scripture defines as sin? Those under grace will say "No". There is no condemnation for those in Christ.
---Haz27 on 3/21/12


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Lee1538,
You often quote Rom 7:14-15

But why is it you never quote verse 20 ???

Verse 20
I am no longer the one doing it

Verse 20
I am no longer the one doing it

Verse 20
I am no longer the one doing it

Verse 20
I am no longer the one doing it

Verse 20
I am no longer the one doing it.

Oh, and by the way, verse 20 says that Paul is not the one sinning

the sin is in the flesh, a mere tent that we will put off. Then we receive a new, sinless tent at the resurrection
---James_L on 3/21/12


//Christian saints do righteousness, and sinners do sin.

And all the saints of His church have confessed they had a problems with sin and anguished greater over them.

//All sinners will have their place in the lake of fire and brimstone, and all the righteous will have their place in heaven.

Since you are a sinner and do not have Jesus as your Savior, you can only look forward to a neat warm eternity.

Neither you nor Haz has any real credentials to expound on what the Scripture teaches.

What do you do when you are caught in a sin, go up front to pastor Knownothing and tell him you need to receive Christ as you Lord & Savior since the last time it really did not take and you need to be saved again?
---lee1538 on 3/21/12


Eloy //Christians do not sin, sinners do.

Yes, and you may also say that the Apostle Paul was not a Christian but a sinner!

Romans 7:14-15 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not, but what I hate, that do I.

Usually those that promote the view that Christians do not sin are those who are not only blind to their own ugly sinfulness but are trying to cast doubt on the salvation of others.
---lee1538 on 3/21/12


Eloy and Haz, I believe both of you are deceived and do not have the Truth in you by suggesting you both don't sin,
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the Truth is not in us" ( 1 John 1:8) only those with the Truth admit sin. What is even worse is that both of you admit the Word is not in you, (the Word is Christ) and also call God a liar, "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us"
This is what you both are saying. I'm only giving you what the Bible says. Now, if you are comfortable with that, what can I say, that the Bible hasn't already said?
---Mark_V. on 3/21/12


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francis'Trish, I agree with both. Haz, (1 John 1:) John is talking to believers. In the beginning John explains he was an eye witnesses of Jesus Christ. Then he ask them in (v. 6) "If" that's saying "If" we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth." That means you are a hypocrite. Saying but not doing. That is only if you walk in darkness. "But "if" we walk in the light as He is the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin" Those are believers who are constantly been cleanse by the blood of Christ. They are the only ones who can walk in the light.
---Mark_V. on 3/21/12


Proverbs 24:16 For a just [man] falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

A Christian may fall many times, but he does not stay there. He falls towards the mark. That is he falls, but accepts the forgiveness of Jesus for his sin, he repents and rises again. Living by faith that once he asks for the forgiveness of his sin, that Gosd is faithful to forgive.

The unbeliever lives in sin.
He neither considers it sin, nor does he seek forgiveness for sin

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
---francis on 3/21/12


Christians do not sin, sinners do. Christian saints do righteousness, and sinners do sin. All sinners will have their place in the lake of fire and brimstone, and all the righteous will have their place in heaven.
---Eloy on 3/21/12


Trish: 1John says, Jesus "is the propitiation" for the sins of the whole world.
Rom 3:25 likewise describes Jesus as "a propitiation".
But note how this verse says it is for "the remission of sins that are PAST".

Hence the blog topic regarding where does a Christian stand if they sin, being that ONLY our PAST sin was dealt with.
Please read my previous posts and tell me if you sin by those definitions of sin from scripture?

And 1John is not speaking to Christians. Note 1John1:2-6 how it speaks to those in "darkness" (without Christ) declaring eternal life to them so that they might also have fellowship with the Father and his Son, Christ Jesus.
---Haz27 on 3/20/12


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1 John was written to believers. Here is what it says in 1 John 2:

"1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an [a]Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, 2 and He Himself is the [b]propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
---Trish on 3/20/12


What is sin? Here's several of God's definitions,

Unrighteousness (which is being without Christ): 1John5:17
Unbelief in Jesus: John 16:9
Blasphemy of Holy Spirit: Mark 3:29
Transgression of the law: 1John3:4.

A believer, being born of God, cannot sin 1John3:9. We are righteous in Christ. We're not under the law, and where there is no law there is no transgression (sin), Rom 4:15.

But should a Christian "sin" (as defined by God), they have lost Christ.
Heb 10:26-29 and 2Peter 2:14-22 explains the position of those who know Christ but then turn back to "sin" (see God's definitions above).
---Haz27 on 3/20/12


Forgot who said it but a sinning christian is a person with an identity crisis. We are sons and daughters of the most high. The prodical son is the best example.
---Scott1 on 3/20/12


If we as Christians sin, what then is our standing with the Lord?

A believer who is still in sin is much like a foster child in the family of God. A foster child that is only a temporary member of the family unless they are adopted into the family of God. Once adopted, then you become a permanent member of the family.
(John 8:34-35)
34 Jesus replied, Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever.


How do you know if you have been adopted? (1John 3:9-10)KJV
---David on 3/20/12


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i can't speak of the many groups known as 'Christians' but for those few that are in Christ Jesus, their do not sin, the flesh does.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

our standing? the few have no standing:

1Co_12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free, and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

what the Lord gives us to stand on.

Rev_3:5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.
---aka on 3/19/12


Rom 3:25 "for the remission of sins PAST".
Clearly it's ONLY our PAST sins that have been dealt with on the cross.

So, where do professing Christians stand if they sin?

We need to avoid man's ambiguous definitions of sin and only use God's to answer this. One of God's definitions of sin is:
Sin is transgression of the law, 1John3:4

But we are NOT under the law, (Rom 8:2, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).
Anyone who does go under the law makes themselves a transgressor (sinner) Gal 2:18.

If a Christian goes under the law (thus making themsleves a transgressor) then this is sinning wilfully after having knowledge of the truth (Christ), Heb 10:26.
---Haz27 on 3/19/12


Ruben, yes, you are right in a sense. We are held accountable for the evil acts we do, but not for the sin living in us that may cause those acts. Sorry I wasn't more precise earlier.
---Pat.pat on 3/19/12


If Romans 7 say that believers will sin, Romans 8 gives the cure to the sin, "walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"

Romans 8:4 "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Christ clearly indicated the tug of war between the flesh and the spirit:

Matthew 26:41 "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."
He also said of the need to be born of water and of Spirit?

And, John 4:24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

Our stance should be the true life, Romans 8:13-14.
---Nana on 3/19/12


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We'll sin daily until the day we die. But if we are believers, it won't be held against us.
---Pat.pat on 3/19/12

Really, not according to Jesus:

"If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away, it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell ."( MT 5:29)

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away, it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire"(MT 18:8-9)
---Ruben on 3/19/12


Scripture is clear that we will sin as believers. Read Romans 7. Paul talks about this.

We must confess and repent to clear the channel we have with the Lord. 1 John 1:9.
---Trish on 3/19/12


We'll sin daily until the day we die. But if we are believers, it won't be held against us.
---Pat.pat on 3/19/12


Salvation (purification of the flesh) has HAPPENED. Unlike the ancient Hebrews, we have been cleansed ONCE AND FOR ALL. The word "SIN" has no more divinely spiritual meaning (it can no longer separate us from God or "heaven"). we can still do WRONG (called "WRONGDOING").

Hebrews 10:2
"If the worshipers had once been cleansed, they would no longer have any consciousness of sin".

Today, the word "sin" only REFERS TO "wrongdoing" (a BAD HABIT), it does not refer to "unclean".

SINNING is impossible as long as you claim Jesus to be the END of "sin".

Hebrews 9:26
"has appeared once for all at the end of the age to put away sin".
---more_excellent_way on 3/19/12


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"SINNING" is "impossible" for everyone who has decided to live spiritually inside the body that hung on the cross.

Because we have decided to have JESUS as our "FOUNDATION" (instead of REPENTANCE from the law of sin as our foundation), we have ALREADY been restored to cleanliness/purity.

The ancient Jews needed to seek/pursue purification by offering gifts/sacrifices....(and that would only provide "purification OF THE FLESH", they did not have the Holy Spirit available to provide the teaching about "purification of the CONSCIENCE" also).

Hebrews 10:26 "For if we deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins".
---more_excellent_way on 3/19/12


Believers have already received the "knowledge of the truth" that Jesus is our only foundation....therefore, if we return ourselves to the old Jewish law of sin and death (REPENTING), we are "DELIBERATELY" condemning ourselves.

As believers, we have been "restored" to divine cleanliness/purity.

Scripture is only "profitable"/useful for "TRAINING" in righteousness (it is only "MILK"), but our devotion should be formed by moving on ("solid food", 2 Timothy 3:16).

Hebrews 6:4 "it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened"....(because the enlightened have become partakers of the Holy Spirit).
---more_excellent_way on 3/19/12


Sinning is not standing. Stop the sinning and stand.
---willie_c: on 3/19/12


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