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Word Of Faith Den Robbers

Scripture teaches how Jesus drove out of the temple those who were buying and selling, and the money changers, saying they had turned the temple into a den of robbers.

How do you compare this with what happens in the Word of Faith Movement and Mega Churches?

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 ---Rob on 3/21/12
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Rob:

I have to agree with francis here. Also, there are many things you find in correct churches here that you won't find in heaven either: baptismal fonts (anyone who is there will already be there - no new believers "added daily"), nurseries (no day care will be needed), no restrooms, no parking lots, no electrical rooms (there will be enough natural light), etc.
---StrongAxe on 3/28/12


Francis, do you believe the things you see in Mega Churches will be in Heaven?

Do you believe there will be False Teachers, False Prophets, and False Apostles?
---Rob on 3/28/12

I think i clearly pointed out that THE SIZE OF A CHURCH has NOTHING TO DO WITH DOCTRINE

You can have a small church of two people and have false doctrine and false teachers and you can have a mega church of 5000+ and have correct doctrine
---francis on 3/28/12


Francis, do you believe the things you see in Mega Churches will be in Heaven?

Do you believe there will be False Teachers, False Prophets, and False Apostles?

Do you believe there will be people who believe in another Jesus, and another Gospel, other than what is found in Scripture?

Do you believe there will be people who reject we are saved by grace through faith in the death, burial, and resurection of CHRIST, and CHRIST ALONE, becuase they reject what CHIRST did on the cross was sufficiant, and they must add do more?
---Rob on 3/28/12


There is nothing wrong with giving large quantities of money to God's causes. What IS wrong is when preachers preach, in God's name, "you must give large quantities to me or my ministry, or you will miss out on God's blessing, or even be under God's curse". This is extortion.
---StrongAxe on 3/27/12

AGREED

It is also spiritual and emotional blackmail
---francis on 3/28/12


francis:

There is nothing wrong with giving large quantities of money to God's causes. What IS wrong is when preachers preach, in God's name, "you must give large quantities to me or my ministry, or you will miss out on God's blessing, or even be under God's curse". This is extortion.

Also, clearly these preachers don't really believe what they themselves preach, because if they DID, they could just claim the wealth of God, rather than having to constantly cajole millions of viewers to send in their pension checks.
---StrongAxe on 3/27/12




This was not for the Temple, but for the Tabernacle.

Try again.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/27/12
No need to try again. Go back to my post of 3/24/12. I had already included Moses ( the tabanacle) in the discusion of people giving willingly

By your varification that people gave willingly without imposed taxes to the tabanacle you actually support my point that there is nothing wrong with giving large amounts to the cause of God see post 3/24/12
---francis on 3/27/12


Rob thank's for the advice and verses but I really don't need to do more research,I understand fully what's going on with prosperity preaching and attaching it to faith teaching. After reading the verses in Mark 16:15-18 I do disagree that they weren't given to all who beleive since that is what the Bible says in 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe-. The key is Jesus saying"In my name",it's the power of Jesus name that does all of it. I've seen or God has moved through me to do all of those except drinking the poison and picking up snakes. Yes what Christ gave to the Apostles is for now one just has to have the faith to believe it is. No one is given or used in all the Gifts of the Spirit,God divides to each as he will.
---Darlene_1 on 3/27/12


But can everyone in the congregation have a responsibility (ministry) with a big membership? That's the real question.
-Cluny

At NewSpring we push some type of ministry greatly, many people do not and they miss a lot of fruit from it. I am in the media running camera. But we also have Bible Study leaders, visitors center, parking team, and kids and youth group. If we have more servers than can start doing other ministries. The biggest benefit is that it makes a huge church of 3,000 down to about 50 people that you can get to know and serve with.
---Scott1 on 3/27/12


\\Exodus 35:22 And they came, both men and women, as many as were willing hearted, [and] brought bracelets, and earrings, and rings, and tablets, all jewels of gold: and every man that offered [offered] an offering of gold unto the LORD. \\

This was not for the Temple, but for the Tabernacle.

Try again.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/27/12


show where it is written in scripture there will be a mega Church in Heaven!
---Rob on 3/26/12
Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, A GREAT MULTITUDE, which NO MAN COULD NUMBER, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands, And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

MEGA MEGA MEGA CHURCH IN HEAVEN
---francis on 3/27/12




Matthew Chapter Seven teaches "NARROW IS THE WAY AND FEW FIND IT", it also teaches to "WATCH OUT FOR FALSE PROPHETS WHO ARE RAVING WOLVES".

KarenD, will you show where it is written in scripture there will be a mega Church in Heaven!

Darelene 1, I commend you for doing a little research and encourage you to do much more, along with studying scripture. You can find the answer to your question concerning not being for us now in Mark 16:15-18.

Of those people who claim to be annointed by Christ to cast out demons, heal the sick, etc, etc, how many of them do the other things mentioned in this passage?
---Rob on 3/26/12


But these were not free gifts.

These were taxes levied by King Solomon and others.
---Cluny on 3/26/12

Not at all
Nehemiah 7:72 And [that] which the rest of the people gave [was] twenty thousand drams of gold, and two thousand pound of silver, and threescore and seven priests' garments.

Exodus 35:22 And they came, both men and women, as many as were willing hearted, [and] brought bracelets, and earrings, and rings, and tablets, all jewels of gold: and every man that offered [offered] an offering of gold unto the LORD.

1 Chronicles 29:6 Then the chief of the fathers and princes of the tribes of Israel, and the captains of thousands and of hundreds, with the rulers of the king's work, offered willingly,
---francis on 3/26/12


\\I have already pointed out that people gave in the millions in God and silver to the temple. \\

But these were not free gifts.

These were taxes levied by King Solomon and others.

The Baptist Church where I was raised had 1200 enrolled in SS, from cradle roll to senior citizens, and this was hardly the full membership.

I'm saying nothing about mega-churches as such. The first ones were Orthodox. But can everyone in the congregation have a responsibility (ministry) with a big membership? That's the real question.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/26/12


StrongAxe I did a little research and now know that in the beginning the preachers who were the first ones to preach faith were not the same as the Prosperty preachers we see now. Oral Roberts was an early faith preacher and his teaching then was using a point of contact to release ones faith. He was then in a tent healing ministry. Somewhere over time faith got coupled with prosperity teaching and became very perverted by preachers naming a specific amount of money a person had to give in order to see a return on it from God. I won't even listen to them let alone give. Can you please give me the promises Jesus gave the disciples,I don't know what you mean they aren't for us now?
---Darlene_1 on 3/26/12


KarenD:

The problem with megachurches now is that many of them are run by preachers with great charisma and huge egos, and are often independent of any body that can hold them accountable when their teachings go off the deep end.

While one may worry about an earthly preacher being unaccountable, I don't think most Christians worry about God becoming apostate because he doesn't hold himself accountable.
---StrongAxe on 3/26/12


"And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for He is an Holy God, He is a jealous God, He will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins." Joshua 24:19

"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other, or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." Matthew 6:24

"For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." Matthew 6:21
---christan on 3/25/12


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If you don't like mega churches now you will really have a hard time in that wonderful mega church in HEAVEN!!!!!
---KarenD on 3/25/12


Darlene_1:

I am not saying the "word of faith" per se is non-biblical. I am saying the "Word of Faith movement", a very specific 20th century religious movement, has certain beliefs that are biblically based, but also others that are not, and which can be very dangerous.

Jesus made certain specific promises to his disciples that were with him. He did not necessarily make all such promises to anyone who claims to believe in him, and it can be presumptious to claim all such promises.

Also, if all such promises DID apply to all his followers, the fact that such powers are rarely observed among most Christians, this would suggest most Christians are not Jesus's followers at all!
---StrongAxe on 3/25/12


StrongAxe The teaching of The Word of Faith isn't non Biblical and I think its important to make that point. What preachers add to that teaching can be wrong and harmful to God's people and non Biblical but we need to be careful not make it appear that faith in action is wrong. I have seen too much putting down of such preachers without explaining the teaching of faith and what faith brings isn't wrong just what they add to it is the wrong. I am concerned it may undermine some peoples faith and trust in God if they don't have a complete understanding of what is being said. We have to be careful not to hurt the Babes in Christ who don't know the Bible well yet.
---Darlene_1 on 3/24/12


--StrongAxe the blog question implies that mega church are a den of robbers.
Not true at all.

There is nothing wrong with being a Mega church. As I pointed out the all the temples were mega churches. Our mega churches are small in compaism to the temples of God.

1 Chronicles 23:5 four thousand praised the LORD with the instruments

I have already pointed out that people gave in the millions in God and silver to the temple. So being a large congregation and people giving large amunts is biblical. You cannot jugde a church by it's size, and how muchh money it takes in, nor by its asking for money. David and Moses both asked people to give
---francis on 3/24/12


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God's standrad is not whether a church is big or small. The standard is not how much money the church takes in.

THIS IS THE STANDARD:
Isaiah 8:20 To THE LAW and to THE TESTIMONY: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, and the FAITH OF / IN JESUS

The standard in OT and NT is to keep the law of God and have faith in Jesus christ

Any church that teaches the law and the testimony of Jesus had met the standard whether they are two people or two million people
---francis on 3/24/12


Darlene_1:

You said it wasn't a non-Biblical concept. I was pointing out how many prosperity teachers go way beyond what the Bible actually says.

They remind me of two satirical songs I remember hearing on Christian radio many years ago. I can't recall their names, but I remember two specific lines. One was "Make me healthy, make me wealthy, and Lord won't you bless My Everlasting Shopping List", and the other was "Lord, Give me patience! I want it now!"

These are two things that someone who believed in "Name it and claim it" would see nothing wrong with.
---StrongAxe on 3/24/12


Prior to the ministry of our Lord Jesus God was found in the temple. The Lord established his church (called out ones) in place of the temple and gave his Holy Spirit to those who obed and follow the examples given by our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus. The Holy Ghost resides in the minds of the followers of the Lord not in a building. A mega-church (for example Joel Osteen's) does not follow Christ therefore no comparison because mega-churches do not preach Gods Kingdom to come as given by our Lord in the scriptures instead they preach a prosperity message by appropriating scriptures that can support that belief.

~humble follower of the Rock and lover of The Eternals truth (KJV) Matt 16:18, 1 Corin 10:4, 2 Thess 2:10
---Follower_of_Christ on 3/24/12


StrongAxe Without faith its impossible to please God,its not wrong to teach what faith does. I am not sure why you addressed what you said to me since I didn't say there was a schedule when God will repay. I also didn't say I believe in "Name it and Claim It" and couldn't have because I am strongly against such teaching. All I did say was what the Bible tells us to give and it will be given unto us pressed down,shaken together and running over. I also said we reap what we sow which applies to all we do,not just money. Please get your facts straight before you come after a person for something they didn't do.
---Darlene_1 on 3/24/12


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StrongeAxe, I hope you will understand where Francis is at and where they are coming from.

Francis follows the teaching of someone who has been proven over and over again to have been a "FALSE PROPHET", along with their writting and publishing their own Bible. I can speak of these things because I grew up in a SDA home.

Francis needs prayer that he will truly seek know GOD'S TRUTHS and he will flee man made religions, doctrines, teachings, and traditions.
---Rob on 3/24/12


francis:

If a preacher says "Give lots of money to God" or "Give lots of money to your own church", or "to a ministry where you feel led of God to give", there is nothing wrong, since there is self-interest involved. However, if a pracher says "Give lots of money to ME" or "Give lots of money to MY church", all kinds of alarm bells should go off.

It's also fine if God himself tells you to give to a megachurch. However, I think he doesn't do that all so often, because if he did, the pastors wouldn't need to help him so much by constantly asking for money in his name.
---StrongAxe on 3/23/12


KarenD, does the First Assembly of God have a website where sermons can be listened to online?

Scott1, I can't speak for any of the ones you have listed except for Mars Hill. In fact I purchased a video series from Mars Hill which is something I usually don't do.
---Rob on 3/24/12


Nehemiah 7:72 And that which the rest of the people gave was twenty thousand drams of gold, and two thousand pound of silver, and threescore and seven priests' garments.

1 Chronicles 29:4 Even three thousand talents of gold, of the gold of Ophir, and seven thousand talents of refined silver, to overlay the walls of the houses withal:

People with willing minds are always giving. There is NOTHING unbiblical about giving large amounts to build God's work and nothing against MEGA churches. All israels temple were MEGA, much MORE MEGA than we have today

You may question whether or not these " mega churches" are doing God's work, they will question whether these small churches are doing God's work
---francis on 3/23/12


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Darlene_1:

It says the Lord will repay. It doesn't say he will repay on any particular schedule. The Word of Faith people believe in "name it and claim it". This is presumptuous, because it's telling God just when to repay and how much.

Jesus said "Ask, and it will be given unto you". He also didn't say when. "Name it and claim it" isn't asking God for things - it's writing checks and expecting God to cover them. This is the difference between a child asking his dad for a new toy for Christmas - and the same child walking into a store, taking the toy off the shelf, and expecting his Daddy to pay for it. The first is faith, but the second is gross presumption.
---StrongAxe on 3/23/12


Tere ohtust, Estonian. How are things in Tallinn?
---Pat.pat on 3/22/12


It is I who have given You Power to gain Wealth for where Ones Treasures are, there Ones Heart will be also. Lay up for Yourselves Treasures in Heaven for Wealth that may Remain for Days to come in The Resurrection. I Was Their Great an Wonderful Reward and My Reward Is With Me, The Power of God at The Right Hand of God.
---yohannes_estoniesque on 3/22/12


Well, I think it's unamerican not to give big-name people big salaries.
---Pat.pat on 3/22/12


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anyone who is making $100,000, $200,000 $300,000 or $400,000 year is in that den of robbers.

stanley, robertson, graham. if they say that 'christ is their LORD, then they should follow his UNWORLDLINESS not quote 1 timothy 5:17-18 to justify their greed or justify their cherry picking the bible.
---mike on 3/22/12


If you or anyone else know of a Mega Church which does this, they are rare and I would love to hear about them.
---Rob on 3/22/12

ok here is a list of my favorite: "mega churchs"
Elevation Charlotte NC, Mars Hill Church Seattle, NewSpring South Carolina, GateWay Church Texas, LifeChurch.TV many locations, North Point Atlanta GA, Jude White, Juda Smith, James MacDonald, are very good. Watch online or if near visit.
---Scott1 on 3/22/12


Rob....Pastor Tommy Barnett and his sons at First Assembly of God in Phoenix. Not only a great church, but the founders of the Dream Center in LA and other cities.
---KarenD on 3/22/12


KarenD, there are several Mega Churches where I live. I have yet to visit one that teaches/preaches Sound Bible Doctrine.

If you or anyone else know of a Mega Church which does this, they are rare and I would love to hear about them.
---Rob on 3/22/12


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The Word of Faith isn't a non Biblical concept. The Bible says He that gives to the poor lends to the Lord and he will repay. Another verse says Luke 6:38 Give and it will be given to you. A good measure,pressed down,shaken together,and running over,will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use,it will be measured to you. Malachi 3:10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse-. God said test him,see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour so much blessing you won't have room for it. The problem isn't Word of faith preaching its connecting it to having to give money to those preachers to get a blessing. We do reap what we sow.
---Darlene_1 on 3/22/12


Sounds to me like you already have you mind made up about what answer you want to your question, Rob.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/22/12


What's a megachurch anyway? How big is too big?
---Pat.pat on 3/22/12


Jesus ate with sinners and talked to tax collectors. The religious people thought he was a cult leader. Have you asked a clarification question to a pastor of a "mega church" or a condemnation question. Example "Why does your church do x?" or "You are a cult because of x". Most cults have 70 to 100 people in them with a single leader and is usually very hard to get into or get out of. Does not sound like a "mega church" to me with thousands of people. There were at least 3000 people at church on Pentecost.

Most mega churchs want something for you (freedom with Christ)not something from you (bondage with Christ). Why do you think people go to mega churchs freedom or bondage.
---Scott1 on 3/22/12


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Rob, samething. They're misusing the Bible for selfish gain, making filthy lucre and merchandise of the gullible people.
---Eloy on 3/21/12


Rob...Why would a Mega Church be included in this question? Have you check out every mega church to see what they are teaching?
---KarenD on 3/21/12


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