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What Is Christian Adoption

Scripture says, "having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will". Explain adoption, and who's the one that chooses?

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 ---christan on 3/22/12
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kathr4453 on 4/11/12

i was speaking of the 10 commandments. jesus said keep the commandments and by doing so himself, he kept the law.

an eye for an eye is not part of the 10 commandments. and just where did jesus say "new law"? Mat_5:17 Fulfill not replace.


do you mean by opposite of love that the 10 commandments were about hate?

what Jesus actually said was he who hasn't sinned may cast the first stone. forgiveness and jurisprudence. that is love.

anyway, we cannot do it in our flesh, so by not sinning in His flesh, he could sacrifice Himself for our sin.

(by the way, the way that you guys keep addressing each other and the other bloggers borders on murder according to Jesus.)
---aka on 4/11/12


//If Jesus Kept the LAW, the, the woman taken in adultry would surely have been stoned, UNDER LAW.

YES INDEED, not only did Jesus prevent the sentence of the law from being carried out, He put His accusers to flight.

Mt 9:13 Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice. For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners'.

And what He desires is not strict legalistic conformity to law but mercy, not condemnation, on those that are sinners.

We see from the Bible, the Sabbath keeping, law promoting religious establishmentarists got the most kick in the face by our Lord.
---lee1538 on 4/11/12


CraigA //Mark, you're the only one that repeatedly accuses multiple people of being Kathr's alternate names, including myself.
---
Not true as olde Warlock constantly has accused others of using different monikers as he did not like to be ganged up on for his unsupportable viewpoints.

While when I first started posting on Christianet, I found that there were other 'lees' so changed and then decided to use the handle Christianet gave me.

It would indeed be good if Christianet could install some kind of system by which one may use only one moniker.
---lee1538 on 4/11/12


Mark, you're the only one that repeatedly accuses multiple people of being Kathr's alternate names, including myself. Do you honestly think "Tom D." is fooling anyone?
---CraigA on 4/11/12


Well TomD, Was Born Again RIGHT in what he/she said?? Did I really say Jesus did not keep the commandments?

Born Again is correct in what he/she saw. I did not say Jesus did not kep the commandments did I.

SO MarkV LIED and twisted the truth, THAT is something OBVIOUS to everyone. Whether defending me or anyone else is not the issue here is it MARKV, or christan or whatever you want to call yourself.

If Jesus SINNED, He would and could not ATONE FOR SIN.

If MarkV had only stopped to THINK, he would not have made such a STUPID accusation, since it's the BLOOD of the ATONEMENT that any of of are saved at all!

God bless you TOMD. I FORGIVE you for falsely accusing me.
---kathr4453 on 4/11/12




Lee1538 understands what I said. Thank you lee.

If Jesus Kept the LAW, the, the woman taken in adultry would surely have been stoned, UNDER LAW. An Eye for an Eye was under LAW. Jesus said A NEW LAW I give you. Totally opposite. LOVE! Turn the other cheek. etc.

Did Jesus SIN by the above? Well, according to the PHARISEES He did. And they CRUCIFIED Him. They accused Him of healing on teh sabbath.

YET if there was one ounce of SIN in Christ He NEVER would have been risen from the dead. God would have REJECTED His atonign Blood.

So TomD, spend your time here LEARNING rather that falsely acusing, like those PHARISEES!
---kathr4453 on 4/11/12


Kathren, I have noticed that every time a new name shows up they always speak on your behalf. Defending you like you were some kind of saint. This time you used Born again, which really does not suit you at all, you should have picked 'viper' or 'venom' this way no one would know it is you.
---Tom_D. on 4/10/12


//Jesus didn't KEEP the Law by perfectly keeping the commandments.

Jesus was more concerned about the spirit behind the law rather than the law itself. For instance, murder and adultery went beyond the act itself to the thought in the heart.

And being Lord of the Sabbath He simply recognized the purpose of the commandment that man needed rest from his labors

Do Sabbaterians really observe the Jewish Sabbath according to the Bible? NO, it is all to easy to see they light a fire on the Sabbath to cook their food and heat their home and they will travel on the Sabbath instead of staying at home.

Both are laws regarding the Sabbath they do not acknowledge.

All they have is something of their own creation.
---lee1538 on 4/10/12


Markv, why do you spin your web like a poisonous spider hoping to catch your prey.

kathr in no way said Jesus did not keep the commandments. There is truly something wrong with your ability to read and comprehend statements here. Or are you just a troublemaker? Seeing many comments here, you are an instigator of evil through and through.

Please do not respond to my view of your bad behavior as you do others who call you out. Your pride is already obviously known to all.
---Born_Again on 4/10/12


Amen kath!! Great post.
---ginger on 4/10/12




//Not by keeping any 10 commandments perfectly.// kathr

ok kathr, even though that is what jesus said. he, also, said, lay down your stuff and follow me. we are save through faith in Christ Jesus alone not by our performance of the commandments. and if jesus did not live a perfect life following the 10 commandments, he was in sin and did not fulfill the law

//All listed in Hebrews 11, in the Hall of FAITH!// that proves that grace existed in the OT even though not fully revealed.
---aka on 4/10/12


Kathr, you are the one full of hot air. Here is proof, you said:

"Jesus didn't KEEP the Law by perfectly keeping the commandments. He kept the LAW by fulfilling the penalty of the law.DEATH."

What? I know you don't believe He is eternal, and that you can come to Christ without faith, but now you tell us that Jesus didn't keep the law perfectly? You are so dillusional you don't know one piece of Truth. You had to change the Truth to a lie again in order to answer Aka. You need some healing that only Christ can bring.
---Mark_V. on 4/10/12


aka, just re-read Romans 5. It states that from Adam to Moses there was "NO LAW". Yet we know Abel was saved, by placing his faith in the Promised redeemer. Enoch, Noah Abraham, all lived before any LAW. All listed in Hebrews 11, in the Hall of FAITH!
---kathr4453 on 4/10/12


---lee1538 on 4/9/12
Perhaps you believe yourself to be William F. Buckley too.

Perhaps you soiled your Depends while writing this . and Perhaps you didn't.

Perhaps you only READ about the Holy spirit and perhaps you only READ the Holy Spirit turns your life upside down.

Perhaps it's impossible to tell with you knowing that perhaps it's all headknowledge.

And Perhaps not all have that earth shattering experience like FB MEYER who as calvinist believed he was possibly saved at 5 years old, he just can't remember any earth shattering experience but knows he's saved.

So again PERHAPS your just full of hot air...
---kathr4453 on 4/10/12


many didn't read my post. Just because God already KNEW who to go to, doesn't mean he chose them. Pre means to know something before hand, it does not mean choose.
God knew every person who he went to in the OT would accept him.
God didn't choose Adam. He literally created him. He knew he would sin and already made provision before it happened. He knows everything that we are going to do. Does that mean he chose for us to sin? NO. It means he knew. One side says God chose, the other says man does. How about a 3rd option. God knows what man will choose before they choose it. That's the truth of how it really is. That is how he offers salvation to all. He knows who will and who won't. That's how people condemn themselves to hell not God.
---ginger on 4/10/12


---- yet, he fulfilled the law. since we can't, salvation is in our belief of the One who has not in anything else.
---aka on 4/9/12

The LAW Jesus fulfilled was taking the WRATH for our sin, and dying in our place. Hebrews 2

Not by keeping any 10 commandments perfectly.

Jesus didn't KEEP the Law by perfectly keeping the commandments. He kept the LAW by fulfilling the penalty of the law.DEATH.

Blood was shed daily to REMIND them of their ever continual SIN. Kind of an oxi moron for anyone who actually believed themselve as perfectly keeping the law that they could save themselve by no breaking it.

Yet believe it or not, the pharisees, as was Paul actually did believe themselves blameless.
---kathr4453 on 4/10/12


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Nana, I don't know what your grip is about, but you gave a parable and try to make a case out of it. First of all parables are only for believers to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parable so that Seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand"
Is that not clear to you? What words have to be spoken so that you can understand the parable? If you are saved you will hold on to the "word of God" which is the seed, with a noble and good heart, you will keep it and bear fruit with patience. If you do not understand the answer, something is really wrong there.
---Mark_V. on 4/10/12


"But were you born again of His Spirit? John 3. If you were then truly your life had to be turned upside down and sent in a different direction."
---lee1538 on 4/9/12

Luke 8:15 "But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience."

Such as described in Luke 8:15 would turn dishonest and harden their heart then?
Such strange things on account that all you see of mankind is disease and nothing good in your fellow man.
God reserved some who had not bowed knees to Baal, Jesus longed for a people who would heed, "O Jerusalem".
But your spirit dwells in "There is none righteous, no, not one", why?
---Nana on 4/9/12


//Is that how God CHOSE you Totally threw you off your horse? Correct? So it sounds like all the elect have Paul's EXACT same experience, ...

For many of us our coming to Christ has been a very dramatic and upsetting experience much like being thrown from a horse.

Perhaps all you did was to go up front of a church and announce that you believed in the gospel- answered an altar call. And that of your own free will.

There are many that want to live an ethical life and are attracted to what Christianity teaches. Perhaps some just want the fire insurance.

But were you born again of His Spirit? John 3. If you were then truly your life had to be turned upside down and sent in a different direction.
---lee1538 on 4/9/12


ginger, God choose Adam, Able, the nation of Irael over the others to bring the Truth to us, Moses, Abraham, and all others. He choose to destroy many nations who opposed Israel. God did all this without mens free will even mentioned. There is evidence of God's Grace in every dispensation. When Adam and Eve sinned, God graciously intervened, promise a Redeemer. In the time of Noah, Noah found grace in the sight of God (Gen. 6:8). God graciously intervened and saved Noah and his family. In the time of civil goverment man rebelled by building the tower of Babel. God did not destroy the rebellious creation, but worked in the heart of men like Abraham and Melchizedek, by extending a gracious promise that He would bless mankind through Abraham.
---Mark_V. on 4/9/12


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kathr, read what i say in totality...i just said what you said.

jesus said: Mat 19:17 ....if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments [the law]. that is in theory. Paul is talking in practicality to men that can't fulfill the law.

//Men inherited Adam's sin. //

jesus was god/human. God came to us in Adam's flesh. yet, he fulfilled the law. since we can't, salvation is in our belief of the One who has not in anything else.
---aka on 4/9/12


kathr, what i am saying is that even jesus said that perfect performance of the law will save you. however, in our flesh descended from Adam is impossible but for one person, who fulfilled the law. it is our belief in him that will save us.
---aka on 4/9/12

AKA, According to Romans 5 all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God from the very fall of Adam. Men inherited Adam's sin. Therefore no keeping of any law could SAVE anyone. If perchance any LAW was kept, it was the LAW of Sacrifice as we see Abel did. Abel was considered righteous because of his faith in the coming redeemer, sacrificing( BLOOD) IN FAITH looking forward to that day. It's always been BY FAITH, and never LAW.
---kathr4453 on 4/9/12


Is that how God CHOSE you Lee1538. Totally threw you off your horse? Correct? So it sounds like all teh elect have Paul's EXACT same experience, being BLINDED and REBUKED by Jesus Christ Himself!

All of the apostles were chosen, just as Moses was, and David was and ALL Jews who were God's CHOSEN People.

BUT nowhere are any Gentiles CHOSEN. Many are called but FEW are CHOSEN.

Yet you say all those called ARE chosen.

God also called out to Cain and gave him a SECOND CHANCE to do what was right. Hummm.
Care to explain?
---kathr4453 on 4/9/12


ginger//Many think God chooses. Not true.

Your view then has to account for exceptions.

One noteable exception must be Saul of Tarsus who met Jesus on the road to Damascus.
The guy really did not have much choice as God chose him to carry the Gospel to the Gentiles.

Ro 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Certainly you would have to believe God's plans can be thrawed by man's decisions if man has absolute free will.
---lee1538 on 4/9/12


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MarkV, I believe Jesus is the Christ, OUR MESSIAH, because firstly SCRIPTURE fortold of Him, secondly SCRIPTURE fortold of many events that would surround Him, that He would be born of a Virgin, WHERE He would be born, what TRIBE He would be born of, and so much more. Also that John the Baptist TESTIFIED He was the Lamb of God we were EXPECTING and anticipating.

Yes God did reveal to me through HIS WORD that Jesus Is the Christ. I just happen to BELIEVE the REPORTS along with the REPORTS of His death and Resurrection.

So, are you saying God REVEALED Jesus to you, LIKE you SAW HIM or something?

What exactly did God REVEAL TO YOU?

But NOW that I have received Jesus, God has REVEALED Christ IN ME .
---kathr4453 on 4/9/12


We Know Jesus came full of Grace and Truth. We also KNOW that the Spirit of GRACE was upon Jesus. We also KNOW by Hebrews 10, that to REJECT the Spirit of GRACE, is to reject the Blood of the Covenant (NEW)that is, and to trample Jesus underfoot.

These are NT warnings, not OT warnings.

Life under GRACE as opposed to LAW is Galatians 2:20-21.

GRACE is Galatians. Falling FROM Grace never happened in the OT.

---kathr4453 on 4/9/12


Ginger, I believe you are also wrong because God did not save individuals because He knew they would believe. God who is Ruler and Judge of all the world is at liberty to deal with a world of sinners according to His own good pleasure. He can rightfully pardon some and condemn the other, after all they are all sinners. He can rightfully give His saving grace to one and not to another, since He is obligated by no one. He is free to have mercy on whom He will have mercy. For it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God who show's mercy. And the reason why any are saved, and why one rather than another is saved, is to be found alone in the good pleasure of Him who ordereth all things after the counsel of His own will.
---Mark_V. on 4/9/12


ginger, as i have said before, grace was not fully revealed to us until the risen Christ was fully revealed and it is fully available to those who believe or respond as you put it.

i believe in God's will AND predestination and not "free will" OR calvinism. God's chosen are "chosen" by his will not their own worth. but, it is because he found his grace IN them.

kathr, what i am saying is that even jesus said that perfect performance of the law will save you. however, in our flesh descended from Adam is impossible but for one person, who fulfilled the law. it is our belief in him that will save us.
---aka on 4/9/12


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Hebrew words for camp/ Protection/beauty/tent/pitch/mericful:translated in english as Grace.

Hebrew word (hhen stg 2580 ) translated as grace-a two letter parent root. Hh.N.H strg 2583 /comes from the verbal root hhen.

Gen 26:17 And Isaac departed thence, and [pitch] his [tent] in the valley of Gerar, and dwelt there.

The Hebrew verb is a parallel idea as help, strength and Salvation-Rescue.

Hebraic perspective: HhN.N means All of it
.Hh.N.H The Camp, and Hh.N.N Protection are related.
The parent root hhen:
Ps 57:1 [Be merciful] unto me, O God, [be merciful ] unto me: for my soul trust in thee: yea in the shadow of thy wings will I make [my refuge], until these calamities be over past
---char on 4/9/12


//First you argue for man and his free will and now you are preaching that God was not Gracious in the Old Testament. ---Mark_V. on 4/9/12//

Where?
Where did kathr say

"God was not gracious in the Old Testement?"

Where did she say this?
---char on 4/9/12


aka, kathr is right. The Holy Spirit could be ON someone in the OT but not IN someone. Yes God still gave grace in the OT.
First this scripture says we are predestined to be adopted.
God's will and pleasure is that we be like Christ.

Many think God chooses. Not true. They think that since God KNOWS who will be saved means he chose them. NOT true. God knowing does not mean he chooses. His desire is that ALL come but he KNOWS not all will come. But the ones that DO respond to His spirit being poured out on ALL flesh (book of Joel) are predestined to be adopted because it is God's pleasure and will.
---ginger on 4/9/12


Kathr, in your attempt to proof that grace did not appear until Jesus came, you gave a passage that speaks against your "free will doctrine" ( 1 Cor. 1:15,16). God called you, and revealed His Son to you. Not because of any free will you had. You cannot even speak against something, because the Truth will not allow you to.
First you argue for man and his free will and now you are preaching that God was not Gracious in the Old Testament. First of all, one characteristics of God is that He is gracious always. To say He suddenly turned good is an abomination to who God is.
---Mark_V. on 4/9/12


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Grace is "Christ IN YOU". This was not available in the OT. ----kathr

i agree with this first statement. not so much with the second.

Pro 3:34 Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.

Exo 33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

msterious enigma...don't you think?

Joh_1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Joh_1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

not arguing, just selahing.
---aka on 4/9/12


// [...]Grace is "Christ IN YOU...]--kathr4453 on 4/8/12//--This is nice-I Love this- thanks.(shorten-125min)

1 Jn 4:4
4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
Rom11 (ALL),Zech 11(all
1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.


[Within the camp] was protection as a "shield"-Then...
but
Now, the Word is "camped Within" Those who believe.

Praise God for His "Order of arrangement"

Happy Passover: (Exodus 12:1-51, 13:3-10, 23:14-19, 34:18-26, Leviticus 23:4-14, Numbers 9:1-14, 28:16-25, 16:1-6)
---char on 4/8/12


Galatians 1:15-16
But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among THE HEATHEN , immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Grace is "Christ IN YOU". This was not available in the OT.

We now live in the dispensation of GRACE, that is CHRIST IN YOU, a mystery kept secret in the old, and not available in the Old. It's the Living RESURRECTED Christ who lives in you. THIS is the NEW and LIVNG WAY spoken in Hebrews 10...through the veil, that is to say HIS FLESH!
---kathr4453 on 4/8/12


1 Pet 1:10-12 "Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you..."
1 Pet 1:20,21 "He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for YOU who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God."
---Chria9396 on 4/8/12


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//grace existed before that. in the OT, grace was not fully realized until after His resurrection. therefore, they were under the law. perfect observance of the law was grounds for salvation.---aka on 4/6/12///
//Total observance to the LAW never saved anyone. That's why they had to keep killing bulls and goats. It never made anyone PERFECT. Heb 10 Perfect here meaning SAVED by GRACE, Sanctified once and for all THROUGH the Body of Christ that is by JESUS Blood, death and resurrection.! You can't live under Grace and Law at the same time THEN OR NOW. Galatians 2:20-21
---kathr4453 on 4/7/12//

I consider both of your statements respectable- and I agree with both of you on this, what am I missing-
Thanks :)
---char on 4/7/12


Jed, A-men brother.
---Eloy on 4/7/12


//Grace was not fully revealed to us until the risen Christ was fully revealed and it is fully available to those who believe.
---aka on 4/6/12//
Amen
---michael_e on 4/7/12


---aka on 4/6/12///

aka, I have to disagree with your statement. Paul is a perfect example of one who considered himself blameless concerning observance of the Law, who murdered christians before his conversion TO GRACE. Paul tells us of that change from Law to Grace in Phil 3. Romans 10 is another place where those who observed the Law totally MISSED it.

Total observance to the LAW never saved anyone. That's why they had to keep killing bulls and goats. It never made anyone PERFECT. Heb 10 Perfect here meaning SAVED by GRACE, Sanctified once and for all THROUGH the Body of Christ that is by JESUS Blood, death and resurrection.! You can't live under Grace and Law at the same time THEN OR NOW. Galatians 2:20-21
---kathr4453 on 4/7/12


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Perfect, AKA Complete. Entering His REST, the number 7.

We are Complete IN CHRIST, TODAY we enter His REST..we don't KEEP the SAbbath.. The blood of bulls and goats could never make anyone PERFECT. Abel,Job or Abraham never Kept or observed the LAW. Romans 4 clearly tell us the Promises to Abraham was 400 years before the Law was even given, and never did away with the Promises to Abraham, who's imputed righteous was B4 his circumcision.

When Abraham believed God about a son, "THAT SON"(Isaac) was pointing to Christ who would fulfull all those promises given to Abraham Adam/Eve, Abel etc..

And the picture of Israel entering His REST...the Land, was not through LAW but FAITH!
---kathr4453 on 4/7/12


Aka, I cannot give you an amen to what you said because it is not true. You said:
"Grace was not fully revealed to us until the risen Christ was fully revealed and it is fully available to those who believe"

You first have to be made alive by the grace of God in order that you can become alive to Christ. You cannot believe in someone you do not know unless the Spirit reveals and testifies of Christ to your heart first. Then faith comes when you hear the Truth of your salvation. Then you embrass the Lord with open arms. In your Christian life you will continue to receive grace because the Spirit will be in you. That is why we are saved by Grace, "through" faith.
---Mark_V. on 4/7/12


// grace existed before that. in the OT, grace was not fully realized until after His resurrection. therefore, they were under the law. perfect observance of the law was grounds for salvation. Jesus said so. However, Jesus also knew that one transgression was complete transgression. That is why He had to be the sacrifice...for mankind. Grace was not fully revealed to us until the risen Christ was fully revealed and it is fully available to those who believe.
---aka on 4/6/12///

---Amen aka.

Hebraic perspective:
"camp of protection," "a graceful and precious place."
(Hh.N.N. Strongs #2603)
---char on 4/6/12


Oh Dear, another blog from someone trying to tell us all that we are just a bunch of mindless zombies who can't decide for ourselves if were are going to follow Christ or not.
---Jed on 4/6/12


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Although every man at any time is saved by the grace through faith, the content of faith differs from one dispensation to the next. The message offered and believed for salvation varies according to Gods revelation.
Noah was counted righteous by obedience to God and was saved by building the ark in a world without rain. His faith and obedience wasn't based on knowledge of the death and resurrection, but in the living God and his promise of a flood.
ref Heb.11:7
While Peter explains that Noahs salvation was a figure of the salvation found in the resurrection of Christ, there is no mention of Noahs understanding this truth. Peter reveals that no prophet understood such a salvation through Christ until after his death: ref 1 Pet. 1:11
---michael_e on 4/6/12


"adopted", means "added to the family". Each single soul chooses to be adopted into God's family, through accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, or else each single soul chooses not to be adopted and instead remain a member of the sinful world without Christ.
---Eloy on 4/6/12


the gosple of grace has been around since the beginning in Gen. 3:15. -- markv

actually, that was the first bit of revelation, but grace existed before that. in the OT, grace was not fully realized until after His resurrection. therefore, they were under the law. perfect observance of the law was grounds for salvation. Jesus said so. However, Jesus also knew that one transgression was complete transgression. That is why He had to be the sacrifice...for mankind. Grace was not fully revealed to us until the risen Christ was fully revealed and it is fully available to those who believe.
---aka on 4/6/12


Michael e, the gosple of grace has been around since the beginning in Gen. 3:15. It saved Old Testament believers and saves New Testament believers, because we are saved by Grace through faith. No one is saved any other way. It is by the Grace of God that we are saved. And it is through faith that we believe. Paul often says that we are saved by God's Grace "through" faith (that is, as the instrumental cause), but never once does he say that we are saved "on account of faith (that is, as the meritorious cause).
---Mark_V. on 4/6/12


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Eph.2: 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past(the O T. Matt-John, first part of Acts) Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands, 12.That at that time(before the Cross) ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
19."Now therefore(this side of the cross) ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God,"
---michael_e on 4/5/12


"From the O T. to Christ's earthly ministry, Jesus Christ, John the Baptist, and the twelve apostles preached the gospel of the kingdom to Israel. This wasn,t the gospel of grace later preached by the Apostle Paul..."
michael_e on 3/26/12

"And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree..."

Separate? Is their fruit different?
Matthew 7:16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God,"
---Nana on 4/5/12


Barb, I want to thank you for bringing some light into the darkness. There is no two groups going into heaven just one, only those who go through Christ for He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Without Christ, there is no other way, no other Truth, and so no life.
"Having predestined us to adoption as sons" Human parents can bestow their love, resources, and inheritance on an adopted child, " but not their own characteristics." But God miraculously gives His own nature to those whom He has elected and who have trusted in Christ. He makes them His children in the image of His divine Son, giving them not just Christ's riches and blessings but also His very nature (John 15:5: Rom. 8:15).
---Mark_V. on 4/2/12


As an adopted person, here's what it means to me: a person has all the legal rights of a birth child in the eyes of the law when adopted by the birth parents of a birth child. That translated spiritually means that as a Christian I have all the rights that Christ has in God's "eyes" including the forgiveness of sin.
---wivv on 3/29/12


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Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear, but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
--Those who believe they are 'born into' the family of God disregard the 'Only Begotten'.
---micha9344 on 3/26/12


From the O T. to Christ's earthly ministry, Jesus Christ, John the Baptist, and the twelve apostles preached the gospel of the kingdom to Israel. This wasn,t the gospel of grace later preached by the Apostle Paul to the churches composed mostly of Gentiles (non-Israelites). Paul preached that Jesus Christ died for our sins and rose from the dead,(1Cor.15:1-4) but during Christ's earthly ministry, no one was preaching that message. It had not even happened yet.
---michael_e on 3/26/12


michael, not just Israel not follow God and need be born again?

Romans 1:18_21 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness,
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened."
---Nana on 3/25/12


"Barb, certainly if one does not accept Paul's writings, one would have to go simply with the recorded teachings of Jesus. We can only accept what we can accept, and I respect that, whether or not we agree."
---Pat.pat on 3/25/12


Spotlight on Cliff! :]
---Leon on 3/25/12


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"And if only Israel has to be born of the Holy Spirit and the rest us are saved by grace thru faith as per Paul then is that not two roads? One for Israel and one for the Gentiles. Jesus taught one road and it is a narrow one. He also taught that He and He alone is the Way to the Truth and eternal Life.

We are born into the family of God by the Holy Spirit and not adopted. Jesus said so and that is good enough for me."
---barb on 3/25/12


AMEN BARB!
---Leon on 3/25/12


As a nation, Israel was born the first time when God led them out of Egypt. Two passages that make clear are Ex. 4:22 and Deut. 32:18.

The Exodus from Egypt marks the birth of the nation Israel Paul comments

I Cor. 10:1,2: "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, now that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, "And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea."
They were "baptized unto Moses" and born as a nation.
They refused to follow God.
Jesus said
"Marvel not that I say unto THEE (Nicodemus,ruler of Jews ) YE (the nation Israel) must be born again."
---michael_e on 3/25/12


Barb, certainly if one does not accept Paul's writings, one would have to go simply with the recorded teachings of Jesus. We can only accept what we can accept, and I respect that, whether or not we agree.
---Pat.pat on 3/25/12


Two Questions:

If god does the choosing, does that mean we wants thos who are not chosen and die as a result, to die. Is that also his choice?

If you adopted a Muslim child would you raise her as such?
---atheist on 3/25/12


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And if only Israel has to be born of the Holy Spirit and the rest us are saved by grace thru faith as per Paul then is that not two roads? One for Israel and one for the Gentiles. Jesus taught one road and it is a narrow one. He also taught that He and He alone is the Way to the Truth and eternal Life.

We are born into the family of God by the Holy Spirit and not adopted. Jesus said so and that is good enough for me.
---barb on 3/25/12


"Marvel not that I say unto THEE (Nicodemus) YE (the nation Israel) must be born again."
---michael_e on 3/24/12

Can you explain that 'YE (the nation Israel) - as in only- must be born again' and not the rest who were also invited,
and how?
---Nana on 3/25/12


"Eph.1.5, God adopts us as sons & daughters...implies adults. [?] This applies to the gospel as Paul sees it, & is not the same as being born again, which only applies to Jews. We are not born again, but rather adopted into the family of God."
---Pat.pat on 3/23/12


Wow! This concept is new to me Pat. Being "born again" is only for Abraham's seed, not the entire world? Jesus (the second Adam) died only for the Jews, not the whole world? So, God has randomly determined (predestined) which non-Jews (born in Adam's sin) He'll adopt regardless of our "unrepentant sin" condition? I hope you really don't believe that because it's a radical departure from what Scripture says.
---Leon on 3/25/12


// do you really think that Christ was only referring to the nation of Israel//
It has very little to do with what I think.
Rom. 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
Eph.2:11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands, 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
---michael_e on 3/25/12


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michael_e, do you really think that Christ was only referring to the nation of Israel and not mankind? True that He was rebuking Nicodemus in John 3 but it would be seriously underestimating that this does not refer to all of mankind, especially when this subject of regeneration speaks about "he cannot see the kingdom of God and enter into the kingdom of God"

"Regeneration" is very critical in the life of a Christian. It's like if the man is not alive, how can he even walk, see, eat, communicate? So too the Christian. He can only see and believe in Christ is because He's made alive by the Spirit and not the other way round - which many are taught and come to believe.
---christan on 3/25/12


Michael, good point about the plural Ye vs. the singular Thou.
---Pat.pat on 3/24/12


//Usually, you adopt someone whose father is dead or is so unfit that it is right for his children to be taken from him to a good life without him. // willie c

another consideration that fit this category are earthly fathers. many do not want to admit they are unfit fathers, but we can only provide material supply and direction if that. it is the Father that provides spiritual supply.
---aka on 3/24/12


John 3:7 real meaning is often overlooked due to failure to appreciate second person pronouns "thee" and "ye."
"Marvel not that I said unto THEE, YE must be born again."
most don't understand the significance of "thee, thou, ye, you" contrasts in our Bible.
"Thee, thou" and "ye, you" are singular and plural forms of second person pronoun. Older English distinguished between singular (thee, thou) and plural (ye, you). "thee, thou" refers to individual while "ye, you" refers to group.
Our Lord was saying to Nicodemus,
"Marvel not that I say unto THEE (Nicodemus) YE (the nation Israel) must be born again."
---michael_e on 3/24/12


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Pat.pat on 3/23/12

i agree.
---aka on 3/23/12


If we have been adopted, there was a time when we were not children of whoever adopted us. While we were children of Satan, we were not our Father's kids. But, "now we are children of God," John says in 1 John 3:2. Usually, you adopt someone whose father is dead or is so unfit that it is right for his children to be taken from him to a good life without him. Satan is indeed dead, as far as life of love goes, and he certainly is all that unfit can possibly mean. So, we in sin fully qualified to be adopted. And we all "received the Spirit of adoption," Paul says in Romans 8:15 to us Gentiles. So, all sinners who trust in Jesus are adopted.
---willie_c: on 3/23/12


According to Eph.1.5, God adopts us as sons and daughters. The word implies adults. This applies to the gospel as Paul sees it, and is not the same as being born again, which only applies to Jews. We are not born again, but rather adopted into the family of God.
---Pat.pat on 3/23/12


Adam had dominion over the earth.
When Adam sinned he turned dominion over to satan
All who are bnorn into this world have been born with the sin nature of Adam

WHen Adam was created he was in theimage of God: Pure and perfect without sin
All others born after Adam was born in the fallen nature of Adam

Thus God had to adopt all who were son fo Adam into the family of God

meaningthose who had a sin nature were now given a spiritual nature the nature of Jesus

Then they can be son and daughters of God
---francis on 3/23/12


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Romans 9:4 "Who are Israelites, to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises,

Romans 11:24 "For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?"


Romans 11:20_21 "Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee."

"Be not highminded, but fear". Good advice, don't you think so christi?
---Nana on 3/23/12


Two Questions:

If god does the choosing, does that mean we wants thos who are not chosen and die as a result, to die. Is that also his choice?

If you adopted a Muslim child would you raise her as such?
---atheist on 3/23/12


God does the choosing, God adopts.

in accordance to His will, he has predetermined to adopt us via the channel (dia) of Jesus Christ. iow, God made up his mind that we can partake in the inheritance because of His only begotten Son's triumph over death (sin).

Jesus makes the offer in Rev 3:5 The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.
---aka on 3/23/12


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