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Christians Sin Nature

Do Christians have a sin nature by which they still sin?

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 ---lee1538 on 3/25/12
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lee1538, You may not get to read this due to your family emergency but I'll post it just in case.

You accept the definition of sin as transgression of the law, 1John3:4. This applies to ALL the law, but you argue that 1John3:4 refers to SELECT parts of the law.
Also you argue that "habitual" sin determines if your lost which depends on whether someone is in "characterized" sinful lifestyle or they are simply an addict/someone struggling to overcome habitual sin.

What a complicated gospel you preach. Some Christians would doubt their salvation if they were told such a gospel. Such a convoluted doctrine just to try to distort scripture that says Christians cannot sin.
---Haz27 on 4/4/12


"But I still hope to get an answer on those examples of "habitual" sin I asked about." Haz27

"Habitual sin", what on earth is this? Does Scripture teach you that there are "regular, habitual and mortal sin"? I know of an organisation that teaches this BUT most definitely not the Scriptures. As far as God is concern, sin is sin, and "the wages of sin is death"!

God's tolerance to sin is 0%! It was demonstrated in the sacrificed life of His Son Jesus Christ. Why else do you think Christ came into this world for? "thou shalt call his name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins."
---christan on 4/4/12


"Our righteousness is in Christ so we are NOT sinners." Haz27

Harken unto these words:

"If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
1 John 1:6-10
---christan on 4/4/12


//Can you provide scriptures detailing which of the 10 commandments are still applicable to Christians, according to your trusted sources?
--------
Do not need anything except the Bible to answer this one.

The church is not under the Old Covenant but the New.Read the words of Jesus on this in the Gospels.

All the commands in the Decalogue are repeated in the New Covenant except the Sabbath.

2 Cor. 3:7,9 the ten commandment covenant is viewed as being the ministry of death & condemnation and it commands us to live in the ministry of His Spirit.

Suggest you read that section.
---lee1538 on 4/4/12


lee1538: Can you provide scriptures detailing which of the 10 commandments are still applicable to Christians, according to your trusted sources?

But I still hope to get an answer on those examples of "habitual" sin I asked about.
I already know your answer regarding Sabbath (which is debatable) but what of divorced Christians who remarry. This is adultery (Mark 10:11,12) and therefore such are in "habitual" sin.
AND you stated for such people "those who make a practice or lifestyle of sin are of the devil."

Or is adultery also one of the selected commandments that is no longer applicable to Christians?
---Haz27 on 4/4/12




//lee1538: The alternative to your unscriptural doctrine of picking/choosing what parts of law are still "sin" for Christians is, the truth in the scriptures below.

The simple fact is that you make no distinction between the law of the Old Covenant believing that all of it is still applicable. Sorry but that issue was settled by the church during the first century.

You really need to go back to school on these issues or perhaps you are still in school and need to learn.

If you mentor is Jesus, then you need to listen to those He has called into the ministry of His church, instead of some old street preacher that has soaked his brain in drugs and alcohol for the past decade or so.
---lee1538 on 4/4/12


James L, I always try to judge you correctly, why don't you? You said I believed,
"They do not believe that our spirit is born of the Holy Spirit yet. They believe that our spirit does still sin,"

When did I say I believed what you said? I don't even demand a retract. It's ok. but not true. Here let me tell you something, when you were born of the Spirit, you did not suddenly turn into a Spirit. You are still walking around because you have not died. And while you are walking around in the flesh, you will continue to sin. You were born physically with a sin nature, and that flesh will die. You don't have two natures, you have one, but you are a new creation. Only Christ had two natures He was human, and He was divine.
---Mark_V. on 4/4/12


lee1538: The alternative to your unscriptural doctrine of picking/choosing what parts of law are still "sin" for Christians is, the truth in the scriptures below.

Rom 10:4 "Christ is the end of (ALL) the law for righteousness to everyone who believes"
1Tim1:9 "the law is not made for a righteous person (Christians), but for...the ungodly and for sinners"
Rom 3:19 "whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law"
Rom 4:15 "where there is no law there is no transgression"(sin).

Why do you ignore scripture and still judge Christians as transgressors of SELECT PARTS of the law. Christians are NOT under the law. Our righteousness is in Christ so we are NOT sinners.
---Haz27 on 4/3/12


Haz27//But if a Christian goes under the law THEN they sin and they're lost.
---
Even if we are not under the law but under grace, we are commanded not to sin.

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
---lee1538 on 4/3/12


Haz27//Sin is transgression of the law. The 10 commandments INCLUDES the Sabbath.

1John3:4 does NOT exclude it from the law. You can't just pick and chose what parts of the law you want to include in the definition of sin, 1John3:4.
---
So must we have our male children circumcisized after all that is one of the 600+ laws found in the Old Covenant?

Did the saints at the Jerusalem council Acts 15 err when they decided Gentiles need not observe laws that were strictly Jewish as is circumcision and the Sabbath?

Do you light a fire in the stove during the Sabbath (Ex. 35:3) or do you fix all your food on Friday before sundown?

Bet you do not have an answer!
---lee1538 on 4/3/12




christan said: "You walk in the flesh and you dare say, "I cannot sin."? So you do not need to repent to God anymore since you cannot sin?"

What is walking in the "flesh"?
Gal 3:3 "Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now MADE PERFECT BY THE FLESH?"
We see Gal 3:2 and Gal 5 walking in the flesh is establishing your own righteousness through the law (this is unbelief).

Remember Heb 6:1 which says repentance of DEAD WORKS. The DEAD WORKS is righteousness through the law which is what the flesh desires. Christians HAVE REPENTED of this. NOW there is NO MORE REPENTANCE.
But if a Christian goes under the law THEN they sin and they're lost.
---Haz27 on 4/3/12


Romans 7:17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

He means to say that he does not approve or love it in his present state, but that it is the result of his native propensities and passions. In his heart, and conscience, and habitual feeling, he did not choose to commit sin, but abhorred it. Thus every Christian can say that he does not choose to do evil, but would wish to be perfect, that he hates sin, and yet that his corrupt passions lead him astray. Barnes notes
---lee1538 on 4/3/12


It is NOT I that sins, but the flesh. Christ never came to save your flesh. HE came to save YOU the person inside your covering of flesh.------duane on 4/3/12
duane do you mean the epidermis..your skin?

Christ never came to save our flesh, meaning our old adam, or our EPIRDERMIS, that which covers our personage,(our skin has no power to make us sin) but came that our flesh AKA our old man adam is crucified with Christ. The New Creature is not a REVISED or made over old adam. Old things pass away.

Paul tells us in Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
((Yet I'm still in my epidermis.))
---kathr4453 on 4/3/12


yes Christian,
Salvation IS Christ in you.
You must know this. Why deny this? We are freed from sin but you deny this? I believe you believe the Gospel is too good to be true.
I would have never become a Christian if I knew I wasnt freed from bondage or not given a new life. If sin is still counted then Im lost. There is NO good news to be had. The one time I repented was when I turned to Christ. I didnt repent of sin, for sin was not on my mind, my mind was on Jesus.HE took my sin life away(Something I could never do.) and gave my Spirit a new life, HIS LIFE.
---duane on 4/3/12


James_L//I totally agree. You should write that to Lee and Mark V.

The position held by Christan is the same as ours.

Romans 7:25b So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

But it is our responsibility to discipline the flesh as much as possible not to sin. If we do not, then we will have problems as we are accountable for what we do in the flesh.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
---lee1538 on 4/3/12


"HE came to save YOU the person inside your covering of flesh. IT is NOT I who sins. Christ dwells in ME.I cannot sin. I have been set free" duane

According to you, "Christ is dwelling inside you". When you lie, lust for a women, etc., are you saying it's not you who's committing these offenses known to God as sinning? Who do you blame all these sins "committed by you" on?

You walk in the flesh and you dare say, "I cannot sin."? So you do not need to repent to God anymore since you cannot sin? Really, where did you get this idea from? Most definitely not from the Holy Spirit, I assure you.

Please, do tell...
---christan on 4/3/12


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\\And so long as you're still in the flesh, sin will continue to "dwelleth in you" till you return to dust. The spirit cannot sin because it's "born of the Holy Spirit." The soul is the one that's being sanctified for as long as God wants until He comes and take His beloved home.\\
---christan on 4/2/12

I totally agree. You should write that to Lee and Mark V. They do not believe that our spirit is born of the Holy Spirit yet. They believe that our spirit does still sin, that that Holy Spirit can dwell in a difiled temple with a corrupt inner sanctuary.
---James_L on 4/3/12


Duane, the spiritual man, born of the Spirit, can act in a fleshy way. Anytime you disobey the Lord, you are carnal so you're operating off the principle of sin. Anytime you do what the Lord wants you to do, you are walking in the Spirit. Carnality is simply a momentary experience of the Believer who is disobedient to God. So it is not a state, it is simply a kind of behavior. And all Christians at any given moment, right now, are either carnal or Spiritual, depending on whether you functioning in the Spirit or in the flesh. If you are sitting there saying, "I don't like what he is saying" and you have hostility in your heart, and you don't like what I said, your flesh is reacting, thats Carnality.
---Mark_V. on 4/3/12


lee1538: Sin is transgression of the law. The 10 commandments INCLUDES the Sabbath. 1John3:4 does NOT exclude it from the law. You can't just pick and chose what parts of the law you want to include in the definition of sin, 1John3:4.

lee1538, you habitually neglect the Sabbath hence you're of the devil (1John3:8) according to your interpretation of 1John3:6-9.

And what of the divorced Christians who remarry? This is adultery (Mark 10:11). As they're in "habitual" sin they are of the devil according to you.

And the criminal on the cross was a "habitual" sinner till he died. Seems unfair he got away with it whilst a Christian has to improve or he's condemned.
Aren't we saved by grace?

.
---Haz27 on 4/3/12


Christian,
I see you dont understand.
It is NOT I that sins, but the flesh. Christ never came to save your flesh. HE came to save YOU the person inside your covering of flesh. IT is NOT I who sins. Christ dwells in ME.I cannot sin. I have been set free.
I is not 2 or 3 people, I is me, born again. I is not 2 or 3 people to save, HE saved me.I have life. The flesh will die.
---duane on 4/3/12


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Haz27//According to your doctrine many are lost, including the 2 examples below:
1: Smokers and addicts

2: [those that neglect the]Saturday Sabbath, which is transgression of the law/sin.

Not necessarily as I pointed out before in a previous posts, as addictions do not immediately fall away esp. for new believers.

I smoked for years after I became a Christian, however, it was a continual struggle for me until I finally surrendered it to the Lord and He took the desire away from me.

While Scripture attests to the fact that sin is a violation of law, 1 John 3:4, not all laws found in the Old Covenant are applicable to the Church. And such is circumcision and observance of the Jewish Sababth.
---lee1538 on 4/2/12


lee1538 said: "it is those who make a practice or lifestyle of sin are of the devil."

According to your doctrine many are lost, including the 2 examples below:
1: Smokers and addicts (who you say are in "habitual" sin)
2: Lee1538 is in "habitual sin" for his "lifestyle" of neglecting Saturday Sabbath, which is transgression of the law/sin.

Your trust in man is leading you into error. So many scriptures say we are not sinners but you follow man who contradicts this, denying that Christ set us free from sin.

Regarding the holiness theology you criticize, it is from scripture.
Rom 11:16 "if the firstfruit (Christ) is holy, the lump is also holy"
---Haz27 on 4/2/12


"I hear some say they are and will remain sinners but say they are also saved(have eternal life)." duane

You have just confessed, that you have no understanding of the tripartite man. The Christian that's "born of the Spirit" does not live in sin. As Paul said, "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Which part is Paul speaking about? The flesh!

And so long as you're still in the flesh, sin will continue to "dwelleth in you" till you return to dust. The spirit cannot sin because it's "born of the Holy Spirit." The soul is the one that's being sanctified for as long as God wants until He comes and take His beloved home.
---christan on 4/2/12


duane//Does sin still count against us?
---
While we have forgiveness for our sins - past, present & future, the righteousness that is in Christ has been accredited to the believers account.

What we need to look at closely and verify it as much as we are able by scripture is the centrality of belief as held by the church throughout the centuries.

And in that centrality of belief is the belief that we are sinners saved by grace, not of ourselves it is the gift of God.

There will always be those who will continue to insist that they alone have the right interpretation of scripture.

But they are really blind to their own ignorance and sin and fail to realize they themselves are children of the devil.
---lee1538 on 4/2/12


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I hear some say they are and will remain sinners but say they are also saved(have eternal life). Salvation is Christ in you. Will God and sin dwell in the same person as one? How does that work?
Sin= death
Christ= life
Did Christ come to put away sin or dwell with sin?
Are we freed from sin or does sin remain? Are we dead to sin or alive to sin?
Does sin still count against us? OH, It must because we still need to ask forgiveness of all sin.
---duane on 4/2/12


"There is no salvation in sin. Thats why Christ came, to distroy sin." duane

Are you that sure than that Christ came to die for you specifically? It was because of sin that Christ came to die for His people, and you say "There's no salvation in sin"? How so? Do tell, what state were you before you became save? Sinless or sinful?

"All I hear in these blogs is that sin has power over you and fight as you may over your life time you will never overcome sin."

No one can overcome his sin, period. That's why Christ came to die. Jesus told the Pharisees, "If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see, therefore your sin remaineth."
---christan on 4/2/12


Haz27 - I totally agree with 1 John 3:8 but not with your translation. Those that know the Greek can support the view that it is those who make a practice or lifestyle of sin are of the devil.

1 John 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

Your Holiness theology is contrary both to reality and to scripture.
---lee1538 on 4/2/12


lee1538: You quoted 1John1:8 out of context, again.

Also, you said: "It is much easier to believe the Scripture which states"

And what does scripture state (bearing in mind we both define "sin" differently)?
"Whosoever commits sins is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house forever" John8:34

"He that committeth sin is of the devil" 1John3:8

As Christians are righteous in Christ (and not sinners, 1Pet 4:18) clearly these verses above refer to UNBELIVERS.
---Haz27 on 4/2/12


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\\What do you do with your pastor who gets a speeding ticket, get him saved again since Christians do not sin?
---lee1538 on 4/1/12\\

Who said that getting a speeding ticket was necessarily sinful?

I'm assuming that the pastor in question actually exceeded the speed limit.

Of course, there is the possibility that the speeding ticket was an unjust accusation. As we know, not all police officers will justly exercise their duties.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/2/12


Haz, if your mind was not bias as it is right now, you would see the Truth and you would believe it. You and duane need to repent because both of you have sinned. You call God a liar everyday. You claim you stand before God and claim you are perfect, when only Christ is perfect. You again sin. You have received His imputed righteousness because you were justified, but underneath it all you are still dust and you will return to dust. You claim also you do not need a Mediator because you do not sin. You don't need sanctification because you don't sin, you have arrived already that you have been glorified already, another sin. You claim your sins are not sins anymore. Just a bunch of more lies, which are sins also. When will you stop sinning?
---Mark_V. on 4/2/12


Lee,
what shall we say? That sin is of God? Shall we say, that if we sin the truth is in us? The only way we can be saved is to say we are sinners?
How delusional can man get?
There is no salvation in sin. Thats why Christ came, to distroy sin.
All I hear in these blogs is that sin has power over you and fight as you may over your life time you will never overcome sin. Thats wrong and of satan.
Sin shall have NO power over you.
---duane on 4/2/12


The trouble with this blog is that Christians are judgeing theirselves and others by what the flesh does. There is only sin and death to be seen in the flesh. The reason we must be born again.We have life now, being set free from sin. Many dont understand or believe that through Christ we have NO sin in us, we have Christ in us. Christ and sin in us is sooo wrong.
Salvation is Christ(without sin) in you.
---duane on 4/2/12


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lee1538 said: "So if we do something the law says is sin, do you mean to say such is no longer a sin?"

Answer: "Whatever the law says it says to those UNDER IT" Rom 3:19
"Where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION/SIN, Rom 4:15
"Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth"
Rom 10:4
Your "addict" analogy has no relevance to the grace doctrine I follow. It is however relevant to your "habitual sin" doctrine which would judge him as lost due to "habitual sin".
Even you would be lost by your doctrine as you habitually neglect the Sabbath which is sin/transgression of the law.
---Haz27 on 4/2/12


duane//If you admit you sin, your of satan.

So you are saying that Martin Luther, Augustine of Hippo, John Calvin, Billy Graham, Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Dwight Moody, Alfred Edersheim, John Wesley, Clement of Alexandria, Tim LaHaye, John Walvoord, etc. etc. etc. who lamented and confessed their sins were of satan?

It is much easier to believe the Scripture which states -

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

What do you do with your pastor who gets a speeding ticket, get him saved again since Christians do not sin?
---lee1538 on 4/1/12


Haz27//And Christians cannot sin in this way because we are not under the law (Gal 5:18).

So if we do something the law says is sin, do you mean to say such is no longer a sin? Is that your position?

Romans 6 is very clear even if we are not under the law, we do not have a license to sin.

(6:14-15) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Simple observation of the best Christians we may find should reveal even they sin howbeit rarely.

I guess in your view, an addict really has no chance of ever being a Christian since such cannot overcome their addiction immediately.
---lee1538 on 4/1/12


duane said: "Only the lost are sinners."

That's correct as seen in 1Pet 4:18
"If the righteous are scarcely saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear."

ONLY our PAST sin was forgiven (Rom 3:25). Now in Christ we "cannot sin" (1john3:9).

Rom 6:2 asks "HOW shall we that are DEAD to sin live in it any longer?"
The answer here is Christians CANNOT sin because his seed (Christ) is in us (1John3:9)

But, it was interesting to see the lengths some professing Christians go to to contradict scripture, denying that Christ set us free from sin.
---Haz27 on 4/1/12


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If you admit you sin, your of satan. Saints are not sinners, they were made righteous and freed from sin. Sin is no longer counted. Saints are free indeed. A sinner is in bondage. Trust in your saviour and be free. Only the lost are sinners.
---duane on 4/1/12


Mark_V said:"Now you believe some sins count and others don't."

Your comment above suggests you either don't understand what I have said or your just being contrary for the sake of an argument.

Rom 3:25 tells us it's ONLY our PAST sins that are forgiven. So now in Christ we CANNOT sin (1John3:9).
BUT there is ONLY ONE sin left now to avoid. Heb 12 speaks about this. "Failing the grace of God" (Heb 12:15) which is unbelief in Jesus.
To commit this is like a dog returning to it's vomit (2Pet:2:20-22). This is being a "fornicator" like Esau who sold his birthright. And "he found no place for repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears" (Heb 12:17).

---Haz27 on 4/1/12


Haz, I'm sad you don't have the Truth. Now you believe some sins count and others don't. You say,
"BUT, Heb 12:1,4 warns Christians to be wary of sin. What sin is this?"

sin is sin. Your now heading to RCC doctrine. All sin against God is mortal sin in that it deserves death, but no sin is mortal in the sense that it destroys our justification by faith. Even the smallest sin is an act of rebellion against God. Every sin is an act of treason. A sin of "omission" is a failure to do what God commands. Sin is also defined as a transgression of the law. If we walk where we are not permitted to walk, this are sins of commission. Because we have a mind and a will, we are all capable of moral actions.
---Mark_V. on 4/1/12


lee1538: To explain further my answer to your question that if Christians cannot sin (1John3:9) why the warning against sin in Heb 12. I have already explained Heb 12 to you and below is further clarification of 1John3:6-9.

1john3:4 sin is transgression of the law.
Now we know what sin 1John3 speaks of.

And Christians cannot sin in this way because we are not under the law (Gal 5:18). It was not made for us (1Tim 1:9). And where there is no law there is no transgression/sin (Rom 4:15).

YET, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Rom 8:4) because we walk after the Spirit.
We cannot sin because his seed (Christ) is in us.
---Haz27 on 3/31/12


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lee1538 said regarding Heb 12:1,4: "Since the verses are addressed to Christians, there would not need be any warning if they were incapable of sinning."

As 1John3:9 says: "Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin, for his seed (Christ) remains in him".
In Christ we cannot sin.

BUT, Heb 12:1,4 warns Christians to be wary of sin. What sin is this?
Read Heb 12:15-17. It is failing the grace of God/being a "fornicator" like Esau who sold his birthright and got rejected.

This is not "sin" as you define it. The sin it warns us against is unbelief in Jesus by bringing ourselves under the law for righteousness thereby making ourselves a transgressor/sinner (Gal 2:18).
---Haz27 on 3/31/12


Haz27 -Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God, lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled,
Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

Since the verses are addressed to Christians, there would not need be any warning if they were incapable of sinning.
---lee1538 on 3/30/12


lee1538: Regarding Heb 12:1,4, I had said Christians are to be wary of sin. Search the scriptures and see its many warnings against turning to righteousness through law. To be under the law is to make yourself a transgressor/sinner (Gal 2:18).

And this is confirmed in Heb 12:15-17. "Looking diligently lest any man FAIL THE GRACE OF GOD". We are warned not to be a "fornicator" like Esau, who sold his birthright and thereby was rejected.
How do you reconcile this with your view Heb 12 speaks of "sin" as "missing the mark"?
This scripture shows the "sin" spoken of is like selling your birthright, just like Esau. Turning to the law makes you a sinner and is selling your birthright.
---Haz27 on 3/30/12


Mark-V //, I have told Haz so many times, he has to admit he sins. If he doesn't admit it, he is not one of God's sons.

Frankly, these people that say they do not sin reject the testimony of the saints of God's church who have struggled against the sin that so easily beset all of us.

Heb 12:1,4 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,...Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

All they want to do is to bring into question the salvation and freedom we have in Christ. They are counterfeit Christians.
---lee1538 on 3/30/12


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Lee, I have told Haz so many times, he has to admit he sins. If he doesn't admit it, he is not one of God's sons. Habitual sins do not go away in an instant. Some times it takes a life time. God, through the Spirit begans to clean us up. At no time are we completely clean and pure. Hebrews mentions the condition we are in, and why God has to chasten us believers ( Heb. 12:4-10).
"But if you are without chastening, "of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons" and here is why (v.10) "For He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness"
If Haz continues to admit that he does not sin, he is not a partaker of chastening, he is illegitimate and not a son.
---Mark_V. on 3/30/12


Ginger - very good! You have eyes that see!

//Too many get to the point where they start judging and pointing fingers unknowingly letting the enemy in to plant weeds in their garden all over again.
---

And this is one of the main reasons why I have steered clear of some churches that call themselves fundamentalists.

To know Him is to love Him and to walk with Him is to become more like Him.
---lee1538 on 3/29/12


I agree, Lee. If we become sinless, then wouldn't it be a sin to look down on those who still have weeds in their garden? I believe that is sin of itself.
When we get to a certain place, it is our responsibility to bare the infirmities of each other until each is strong enough to pass it along. That is love. That is also what Jesus meant by washing the feet. When there is correction, it should always be in love. And we should always lift up our brothers and sisters.
Too many get to the point where they start judging and pointing fingers unknowingly letting the enemy in to plant weeds in their garden all over again.
---ginger on 3/29/12


ginger //If we hold captive every thought before we act, then I believe it is possible for us to become sinnless, but that is with yielding to God everyday.

To some extent you are correct, but we are much like a garden, the weeds keep coming up and must be pulled out.

There is a danger in believing we have become sinfree as the Spirit does not reveal all of our sin at the same time but one by one brings them to our attention.

If we can become sinless, then will we look down on those who have yet to make a better grade?
---lee1538 on 3/29/12


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Can a Christian sin?

Galatians 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.

The verse tells us to restore those who are caught in a transgression - a transgression being a sin. And we need to be careful of temptation least we fall.

While Haz27 would limit sin to disbelief in Jesus, it is far more than just that. Sin can be idolatry or disbelief and anything done apart from faith is sin. Romans 14:23.

Haz really needs to find better counsel or even go back to seminary or review his course literature if he is a minister.
---lee1538 on 3/29/12


I agree, Lee, about the addictions. But if we keeplaying it on the altar, seeking God first in all things, he promises to give us the desires of our hearts. If it is for that addiction to disappear, it will. If we hold captive every thought before we act, then I believe it is possible for us to become sinnless, but that is with yielding to God everyday.
---ginger on 3/29/12


ginger // None came to him without having some sort of sin that needed to be cleaned out of us.

Likely true, but the fact is some sin - especially those that may be habitually such as addictions, generally do not die easy, it takes time and effort on our part and we can expect the indwelling Spirit to continue to battle against the things of the flesh in us.

Are we ever free from sin? The theologians tell us only when we see Jesus face to face as only then is our sanctification finalized.
---lee1538 on 3/29/12


//Those who have sinful habits upon becoming Christians have a problem with the indwelling Spirit.//

Lee, I agree with the rest of your post. Once we come to Christ, we have the responsibility of NOT yielding our members to sin (choice).
But this statement I disagree with because all of us needed Christ to clean us up. None came to him without having some sort of sin that needed to be cleaned out of us.
---ginger on 3/29/12


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lee1538: Sorry but neither answer really addresses my questions.

We've been discussing this "habitual sin" doctrine for a while now and you haven't shown any scripture to support it and now your changing 1John3:8 so that those in "habitual sin" are not "of the devil" as this scripture describes.

1John3:4 sin is transgression of the law. This scripture defines sin and makes NO DISTINCTION on what parts of the law are binding upon whom. It clearly speaks of ALL the law.
But we are not under it and where there is no law there is no transgression.

Again I suggest your definition of "sin" is the cause for your misunderstanding of scripture.
---Haz27 on 3/28/12


//Your being very inconsistent in your use of "habitual sin" doctrine. Why the contradiction?

Those who have sinful habits upon becoming Christians have a problem with the indwelling Spirit.

Romans 7:22-23 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

While we are freed from the bondage of sin, we still need to exercise the option to sin or not to sin. While before coming to faith, we were enslaved to sin.
---lee1538 on 3/28/12


//You say the law is not binding on Christians but then you say we sin in transgressing it. This is a contradiction.

What I stated is that some of the law found only in the Old Covenant are not binding on the Christian. Did you receive the rite of circumcision on the 8th day?

We do not have a license to sin even if we are not under the law but we are still accountable for our actions.

Romans 6:14-15 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

The apparent contradiction really lies in the relationship between grace and law as our justification is by grace alone.
---lee1538 on 3/28/12


lee1538: You seem to be contradicting yourself, can you explain further.

You allege 1john3:6-9 refers to "habitual sin" instead of "cannot sin".

You then state Christians who smoke are in habitual sin but that 1John3:8 they are "of the devil" does not apply to them.
Your being very inconsistent in your use of "habitual sin" doctrine. Why the contradiction?

Also, if law is not binding for Christians as you say then why did you refer to disobedience to the law as being sin?
If we're not under the law then there is no transgression/sin, Rom 4:15.

You say the law is not binding on Christians but then you say we sin in transgressing it. This is a contradiction.

---Haz27 on 3/28/12


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Haz27//Are you saying a Christian who smokes is in habitual sin and of the devil (as 1John3:8 says)?

In my opinion, yes in habital sin but not of the devil. Bad habits simply do not immediately fall away after one come to know Christ. But there begins a conflict between the Spirit and the flesh.

Sanctification to transform the believer into the image of Christ often takes time.

//Also as you spoke of sin as "disobedience to law" then this includes the Sabbath. Are you habitually neglecting it?
---
I do not regard those laws that are strictly Jewish and in the Old Covenant alone as being binding on Christians. Acts 15 should have settled the issue that one need not convert to Judaism.
---lee1538 on 3/28/12


Haz, do you not understand what the passage is saying in (Rom. 8:10)?
"And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness"

The body is dead in sin. The body is unredeemed and dead in sin ( 6:19,20) Paul speaking to believers,
" I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness and lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, " this was before they were saved,
"so now present your members as slaves of righteousness" He tells them because they are no longer slaves of sin.
---Mark_V. on 3/28/12


Mark_V: Rom 8:10 says "If Christ be in you the BODY is dead because of sin"

Are you saying this is not true?
---Haz27 on 3/28/12


Romans 7:18 For I know that in me that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
---francis on 3/28/12


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Lee1538 said: "Those who have accepted that free gift (ESV) will have eternal life and that in spite of their occasional (and even habitual) disobedience to law"
"IMHO, those Christians that smoke are in a state of habitual sin."

But 1John3:8 says those who sin, or according to your preferred version "habitually sin", they are of the devil.
Are you saying a Christian who smokes is in habitual sin and of the devil (as 1John3:8 says)?

Also as you spoke of sin as "disobedience to law" then this includes the Sabbath. Are you habitually neglecting it?
---Haz27 on 3/28/12


Haz, I can answer you here. I told you that you would not stop sinning until you die. I was speaking of physical death. You have not physically died yet, you walk about calling God a liar. Spiritually you have died, physically you have not and every sin you commit, it is still sin. And until you stop breathing, you still have enought time to admit your sin, and receive the Truth, you will continue to be responsible for calling God a liar. Nothing changes until you stop calling God a liar. You have to repent of your sin. Until now you have been deceived and the Truth is not in you.
---Mark_V. on 3/28/12


Lee1538: I was aware of rest of Rom 6:23, but my point was to highlight that "wages of sin is death".

Christians cannot sin hence no death penalty.
Their body is already dead because of sin.
Rom 8:10: "if Christ be in you the body is DEAD because of sin".
Remember 1John3:9 says we cannot sin because his seed (Christ) is in us?
Both Rom 8:10, 1john3:9 confirm each other. It's because of Christ in us that our body is dead and we now cannot sin.
I no longer live but Christ lives in me (Gal 2:20). We have "put on Christ" (Gal 3:27). This is who we should see in each other now (sinless Christ).

We still have flawed DEAD physical bodies, but it's crucified/dead because of sin.
---Haz27 on 3/27/12


Haz27 //And the wages of sin is death.

If you are to be a purveyor of God's truth, you really should quote the entire verse in its context.

Romans 6:23AV For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Those who have accepted that free gift (ESV) will have eternal life and that in spite of their occasional (and even habitual) disobedience to law as the righteousness of the Christian is that of Christ.

IMHO, those Christians that smoke are in a state of habitual sin.

Do Christian sin? Yes, when they submit to temptation and if they have not changed their worldly way of thinking. Romans 12:1-2
---lee1538 on 3/27/12


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Athiest, I believe I told you already, "I don't know" I'm not God so don't know if at some time in the future you too will believe by faith. No one knows who the elect are. No one knows someones elses heart. We can make judgments by what they say, but that is not conclusive. You could be saved by God in your deathbed. I don't know. That is why I tell this one guy who thinks he is sinless, not to condemn his wife who left him. He doesn't know if God will do great miracles through her in the future. But he even sees himself at the Great White Throne of Judgment pointing his finger at her. He has more trouble then you and you are an athiest, and he claims to be Christian.
---Mark_V. on 3/27/12


"christians" do not sin. their flesh does. once in the spirit, the mind delights in the Lord. there is a constant war. romans 7.

(if the flesh did not have the propensity anymore, it would not die for the payment for sin is death.)
---aka on 3/27/12


lee1538: I think Rom 10:10 says it best:
"Loves worketh no ill to his neighbour..."
There's our giude as to how to behave. And we know that love forgives 7x70.
We don't judge ourselves or each others righteousness by law. We are not the judge/lawgiver (James 4:11,12).
Praise God our righteousness is in Christ. We walk in the Spirit.

But "sin" is the label used to describe those who are under the law and transgress it (1John3:4, Gal 2:18).
And the wages of sin is death.
Such people walk in the flesh.
---Haz27 on 3/26/12


Mark,

Does this mean I am going to Hell?
---atheist on 3/26/12


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//consider the context of Gal 5.

I do not disagree with what you posted.

While we are not to be in bondage to the law, the law does give us guidance as to what is sin and what is the will of God for our walk.
---lee1538 on 3/26/12


Athiest, I hate to tell you though you might not believe it but you were born with a sin nature. Maybe one day you will believe it but I'm sure you don't now.
As Scripture declares that human beings are seen by God as sinful because of their solidarity with Adam. The guilt of Adams sin is imputed, and the same death in sin, and corrupt nature, was conveyed to all their posterity. We are sinners not because we sin. Rather we sin because we are sinners. As David laments, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5).
---Mark_V. on 3/26/12


lee1538, consider the context of Gal 5.
Verse 1: "be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (the law).
Verse 4: "Christ has become of no effect unto you whosoever of you are justified by the law"
Verse 18: "if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law".

Clearly being in the flesh (sin nature) is referring to those establishing their own righteousness through the law.

Christians are NOT in the flesh (Rom 8:9) confirmed by Gal 5:18
Using the term you posted, Christians do not have a sin nature (walking in the flesh).
---Haz27 on 3/26/12


A born-again Christian is just that, born-again, we are given Christ's nature which is righteousness in the Holy Ghost. "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live: yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son from God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. How could we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know you all not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Likewise regard all you also yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus the Lord of us." Gal.2:20+ Rm.6:2,3,11.
---Eloy on 3/26/12


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\\Compare Galatians 5:16 NIV So, I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.\\

And you think "sinful nature" is the same thing as "sin nature"?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/26/12


Sin nature?

Compare Galatians 5:16 NIV So, I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

Galatians 5:16 NIV (revised in 2011) So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

(This agrees closely with the KJV, the NLT is like the old NIV).

The only sinful nature we had was the one we were born with but that was dealt a fatal blow when we became a Christian.
---lee1538 on 3/25/12


"Sin nature" is an unbiblical catchphrase that comes from a debased form of Calvinism.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/25/12


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