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Faith Or Salvation First

Which do you believe comes first? Regeneration of the Holy Spirit (being "born again"/ "born of the Spirit") or faith in Jesus Christ? No backbiting or judging brothers and sisters please.

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Craig A,
I agree with your assessmentt of Romans 10:20.

From that perspective, how do you find that 7 verses earlier, Paul is epousing a sinner's prayer?

Are you suggesting that Paul couldn't make it through 7 sentences without veering in and out of topic?
---James_L on 4/1/12


Craig, here is what happens, (Rom. 10:9) "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved"
You have to believe in your heart, before you can seek Christ. Faith comes from God. If it doesn't come you never seek. "The Lord calls you" when He is ready to give you faith.

"But when "He who had set me apart before I was born," and had Called me through His grace, was please to reveal His Son to me, in order that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not confer with flesh and blood." (Gal. 1:15,16). How much Truth you have to reject before your heart is really hardened, I don't know.
---Mark_V. on 4/1/12


James_L, Romans 10:20 is referring to the gentile nations that in Isaiahs day did not seek God but are now convicted of their unbelief by the Holy Spirit (John 16:9) The Jews were found not worthy because they seek righteousness by the law.

Jesus told a parable of this in Matthew 22

Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden (Jews) were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways (Gentile nations), and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, BOTH BAD AND GOOD: and the wedding was furnished with guests
---CraigA on 4/1/12


CraigA, do you really think you are listening? I doubt so. Afterall, Jesus declared, "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." And neither of us are definitely from the same tree, for now.

As for having the Spirit of God, Jesus did say "Even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him, for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

"Does predestination save you or Jesus Christ?"
"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." Btw, salvation is predestined.
---christan on 4/1/12


Craig A,
when you quote Romans 10:13, it seems that you are suggesting that it means we should ask God to save us, forgive us, etc

Is this an accurate assessement?

If not, please explain what you think it means to "call upon the Name of the Lord"

If so, please explain what 10:20 means when it says "I was found by those who did not seek Me, I became manifest to those who did not ask for Me"

I suggest you have taken this verse out of context, and are interpreting it in light of a preconceived doctrine
---James_L on 4/1/12





MarkV, one must beware that even Satan can quote verses from the Scriptures
---Christan

So then why should we listen when you give scripture just as we have?

I was of the Calvinist persuasion at one time in my life. I had NO joy. I had NO peace. I had NO love for others. I will not go back to that feeling. I feel the love of Jesus Christ in me now and I am motivated by that Holy Spirit (just as Paul was) to warn and teach every man to present every man perfect in Jesus. (Col 1:28,29)

Your determining factor as to whether or not someone has the Spirit seems to be whether or not they believe in predestination instead of whether or not they follow Jesus Christ

Does predestination save you or Jesus Christ?
---CraigA on 4/1/12


MarkV, one must beware that even Satan can quote verses from the Scriptures and James rebukes "Thou believest that there is one God, thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." Who was James talking about? False christians. We have be warned.

Just because one quotes from John 14:1,22,24, Psalm 145:20 to subtly justify the 'free-will' doctrine, does not make them believers all of a sudden. You must be mindful and remember these are 'free-willers' speaking, they are mockers of God's election and predestination.

John admonished the Christian, "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."
---christan on 4/1/12


Mark,

Romans 10:13,14
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?
And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?


Paul made it so easy a child can understand. You must call upon the Lord to be saved! You are not saved before you do this! For you to believe you are saved first is heresy. If you believe you are saved before Christ, then God has saved you on some other basis instead of your faith in Jesus Christ.

Can you not see how dangerous this doctrine is?

John 14:6
I am the way, the truth, and the life: NO MAN cometh unto the Father, but by me.
---Jasheradan on 4/1/12


Then CraigA he writes
Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know?
First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

But check this out!
Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not, I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
That asked not after me!

Before that he writes
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Peace
---TheSeg on 4/1/12


Nothing special, Jesus treated all men the same: John 14:11 "Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake."
What he said to them, he said to all, (John 10:31_42 "... But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him...").

" Jesus reveal Himself , only to those whom He wills to"
Mark_V.
False presumption, Jesus made clear " If a man love me he will keep my words",nothing about 'He wills'.
There is security in loving Jesus and fulfilling his words, but "the love of many shall wax cold".
---Nana on 4/1/12




You were so kind to God. ---MarkV

No actually He was kind to me.

If God gets all the glory, and you are nothing without God, why do you say "you" called upon the name of the Lord? If you call, you get the glory

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Romans 10:13)

Once again, no. He gets all the glory. I'm just simply following His instructions. And just as He promised I was "not ashamed" (Romans 10:11). He is removing sin from my life on a daily basis and I love him dearly for it.
---CraigA on 4/1/12


Nana, great passages. (John 14:1) Jesus, who is God was clearly making it possible for the disciples to believe in Him.
(John 14:22-24) another quote that Jesus does not reveal Himself to everyone, only to those whom He wills to,
"John 14:22_24 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?"
Then you quoted:
"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words"
Jesus was making it clear, that only those who love Christ keep His Words. The others do not hear. Only His sheep hear His voice and follow Him.
And last (Psa.145:20) a clear passage that no one who loves Christ loses his salvation. OSAS.
---Mark_V. on 4/1/12


John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me."

John 14:22_24 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."


Psalms 145:20 "The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy."
---Nana on 3/31/12


Power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth.

Yes!
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
---TheSeg on 3/31/12


"Is it a coincidence that you've ignored that fact?" Jasheradan"

What fact? That you believe than you are saved? Is that what you got out of Romans 1:16? Here, there's more where that came from,

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." 1 Cor 1:18,24

"For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people." Luke 2:30,31

Still standing by your "believe and then saved" theology? If you're right, no one will be saved!
---christan on 3/31/12


"Its a funny thing for me to hear, I chose to believe.
Not because youre saying you chose to believe.
But, look at all the people, who have not chosen.
There are so many foolish people, right!.
" The Seg


EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT POINT!

That's the definition of the doctrine of 'free-will' - man-centerd and poor God who has to wait for the sinner to "choose Him". And they can't even support this doctrine with a clear verse that say so from the Scripture! Otherwise why would Christ declare on Judgment Day, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
---christan on 3/31/12


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Craig, what a nice guy you are, you say,

"Im sorry but God gets ALL the glory for my salvation. I am nothing without him. "Thats why "I" called upon his name and He is saving me."
You were so kind to God.
If God gets all the glory, and you are nothing without God, why do you say "you" called upon the name of the Lord? If you call, you get the glory, and there is something good in you while lost. You have something good to offer God for your salvation, your willingness to allow Him into your heart. That glory is yours I suppose? You took it all. Go ahead and step on Him. Put Him in His place. See where that gets you.
---Mark_V. on 3/31/12


Jesheradan, the book of Acts speaks of the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is not speaking of been born of the Spirit. There is a perticular time when God quickens someone's heart. It is called "rebirth." The indwelling, the sealing, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit are different events in a believers life. You have to get them right. The indwelling of the Spirit brought power to the believers so that they could be witnesses of Chirst to the ends of the earth. these were different gifts of the spirit for all who were already believers (children of God).
---Mark_V. on 3/31/12


I would like to hear from someone who chose to believe in God without God.
Is there anyone here, who can say this?

You know, I chose!
It wasnt because God spoke to man.
Not even because God sent Christ for the forgiveness of sin.
Or even the fact that I heard is word.

But just because one day, I said to myself, you know there must be a God.
Having never heard the words of God or Christ, you know the ones he said, are Spirit!

Is this the way it happened?
Well then, I guess you can say, I chose to believe in God!

It gets me! God give you faith to believe and you do.
And you can say, you chose!
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/31/12


Its a funny thing for me to hear, I chose to believe.
Not because youre saying you chose to believe.
But, look at all the people, who have not chosen.
There are so many foolish people, right!.

Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

I wonder, if you can see what I see here!
---TheSeg on 3/31/12


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That verse is speaking of the "gospel of Christ" not election.

The GOSPEL is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth. Is it a coincidence that you've ignored that fact? I don't think so because those who have indoctrinated you have taught you that you are saved before you even come to faith in Christ.. making the cross of Christ of none effect.

Can you not see what you preach?

Man saved before coming to Jesus.
God delighting in the death of men rather than repentance and restoral.
God ordaining men to fall into sin with no hope of being rescued.

Are you sure you don't have the devil and the Lord confused?
---Jasheradan on 3/31/12


This isnt the first time Ive heard of some claiming they were saved and that why they later came to faith in Jesus Christ. What a tragedy that Christ died in vain for those of you who were already saved.

I wonder whose blood you are saved by before you come to faith in the blood of Jesus Christ.
---LindaH on 3/31/12


"Im sorry you cant understand this but that does not mean its not scriptural. The book of Acts records many instances of belief before receiving the Holy Spirit." Jasheradan

What's there to understand about erroneous doctrines like yours? Here, those that believed in the book of Acts and throughout from Genesis to Revelation is simply because,

"for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." Romans 1:16

Meaning, they were all already converted by the Holy Spirit, that's why they believed. The 'free-will' doctrine ignores verses like these because it takes away their pride in a non-existing 'free-will' theory.
---christan on 3/31/12


//Of course they were ordained Mark since God is not willing that anyone should perish but that all should come to the truth and be saved.
---CraigA on 3/31/12//
Amen
---michael_e on 3/31/12


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"Gods right to chose a nation" CraigA

If it was "a nation" God was talking about, He would have said "Israel I have loved and Egypt I have hated", right? But He used the lives of twins to talk about "election".

Later on in the same chapter, Paul speaks about the potter and the clay, creating a vessel of honor and dishonor from the same lump of clay.

Your total denial about "election of a person" is truly unbelievable, even when it is written in the Holy Bible. If God really "chose Israel", then non of the children of Israel should go to hell. But, do you think there are multitudes of them in Hades now? According to you, there should be none, right?
---christan on 3/31/12


--Craig, you fight so hard for your rights against God. Your heart has been hardened, for you won't let Him take the glory in your salvation no matter what--MarkV

Im sorry but God gets ALL the glory for my salvation. I am nothing without him. Thats why I called upon his name and He is saving me.

If you somehow think a man deserves glory for calling upon his savior, then thats you. Not everyone feels the same way.

Of course they were ordained Mark since God is not willing that anyone should perish but that all should come to the truth and be saved.
---CraigA on 3/31/12


By your understanding that you can believe Jesus without the Spirit, why do you need the Spirit at all, since you already believe in Him without His Spirit?
---christan on 3/30/12


Im sorry you cant understand this but that does not mean its not scriptural. The book of Acts records many instances of belief before receiving the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:9 declares that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ do not belong to Christ

Ephesian 1:13 tells us clearly that we receive the Spirit after we believe in Jesus Christ

Galatians 4:6 makes it evident that the adoption takes place first, then we receive the Spirit

The Spirits purpose in our lives is to conform us to the image of Christ and comfort us.
---Jasheradan on 3/31/12


//A man must realize that he lacks the power on his own. Only the humble and broken will ever come to that point in their lives....CraigA on 3/30/12//

Amen CraigA--Very well stated.

Humbled and declaring Jesus Christ [Word of God] to Lord and Master their life.
---char on 3/31/12


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"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." What do you think Paul was talking about?---Christan

Gods right to chose a nation (Malachi 1:1-4) of people based on his own reasons and not what we think He should choose them by.

Roman 1-8 and 10-11 make it clear that God is basing his decision now on those who show faith in his Son Jesus Christ. Not those who think their ancestry, law - or in this case election - will get them into heaven.
---CraigA on 3/31/12


---micha9344 on 3/28/12

---Nana on 3/29/12

Amen.
---char on 3/31/12


Craig, you fight so hard for your rights against God. Your heart has been hardened, for you won't let Him take the glory in your salvation no matter what. you say,
"It is true that the Spirit teaches us the truth, but he doesnt MAKE you believe."
If the Holy Spirit did not testify of Christ, how would you ever know Christ? Then to make yourself more believeble you say,
"but He doesn't make you believe"
Faith is a gift of God. Here listen to this:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of God, and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).
Only those who were ordained by God to eternal life believed.
---Mark_V. on 3/31/12


It seem like some of you are saying, you are saved because, you believed.

But, why do you believe?
Did God not make himself known?
Did Christ not come to earth?
So how is it you can say, I believed?

If God had not made himself known, you wouldnt know him.
If God had not sent Christ, it a sure bet, you wouldnt know him either.
So again, how is it anyone can say, I believed?
Christ even said my words are spirit.
God is a Spirit!

Go ahead ask yourself, why, do I believe!
The answer had got to be because of God!

Will you now also deny God came to you first?
I dont want you to think about this, know it!
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/31/12


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--Ephesians 2:8 - you need God's gift of "FAITH" and then be justified by faith--Christan

Christan, the subject of a sentence is never in a prepositional phrase.

You (noun) are (verb) saved (past participle verb functioning as an adjective) by grace (prepositional phrase) through faith (prepositional phrase), and THAT (demonstrative pronoun) not of yourselves...

What is "that" pointing to? The subject of the first clause! And since grace and faith are ruled OUT, that leaves "You are saved"

Are YOU not of yourself?
Or is YOU BEING SAVED not of yourself?

Im sorry but bad grammar leads to bad doctrine. Ive been guilty of this myself in the past. I hope this helps.
---CraigA on 3/30/12


It is true that the Spirit teaches us the truth, but he doesnt MAKE you believe.

Your faith in Jesus Christ gives you access to the grace in which we all now stand! (Romans 5:2)

He comes into your heart and gives you HIS power over sin and HIS love. Just as Kathr says, its CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory! That is what saves us, not some election based on God being partial. He declares that He is NOT partial!

A man must realize that he lacks the power on his own. Only the humble and broken will ever come to that point in their lives. So you see its not a matter of intelligence, its a matter of wisdom.

We will never deserve what God has done for us so please stop trying to make faith a work. Its not.
---CraigA on 3/30/12


"And for your information, God did not choose some to Heaven and the rest to Hell! No such doctrine in scripture.." Ruben

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." What do you think Paul was talking about? The answer is found in the verse before this,

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth"

What does "election" mean? To choose, right? So, God chose Jacob and He rejected Esau - unconditionally as written in the previous verse. Just this two verses alone and your remarks is proven false.
---christan on 3/30/12


The Seg, ok, I'll retract what I said. That should take care of it. Peace to you.
---Pat.pat on 3/30/12


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Pat.pat, can I ask you something.
You said:
Christian, of course you are not concerned. You are right and we are wrong. God loves you and hates us. Why be concerned?

Where are you getting this from?
From what I read, nothing like this was said!

So, I would like to ask you.
What did he say that is untrue, specifically!
By this I mean that is not in the bible.

Now please dont take offence.
But what seems to be upsetting you is the true,

I mean arent we all here to sharpen our swords.
Mine against your, and your, against mine?
Rightly trying to discern, the truth!
So stop with the name calling.
The forum open and you have the floor.
Say on!
---TheSeg on 3/30/12


I dont think anything is missing.
I believe everything is just the way God made it.
It is hard to believe. But I believe it!

Like Christ said,
Luk_6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
Joh_3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Joh_12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

Peace
---TheSeg on 3/30/12


Eternal life in Jesus Christ has a "process", or as Paul teaches, it's predestined. It's not by your whims and fancy 'free-will' that you think one can choose to be saved. For your information, there's no such doctrine in the Scripture.
---christan on 3/30/12


And for your information, God did not choose some to Heaven and the rest to Hell! No such doctrine in scripture..
---Ruben on 3/30/12


Christian, of course you are not concerned. You are right and we are wrong. God loves you and hates us. Why be concerned?
---Pat.pat on 3/30/12


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Jasheradan, John 7:39 & 16:7 does not mean a person can belief without the Holy Spirit. These two particular verses speaks of a certain coming event that Christ was confirming about Joel 2:28 prophesy. And that event we now know happened in Acts 2 - Pentecost Day.

Read carefully, "But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given, because that Jesus was not yet glorified.

By your understanding that you can believe Jesus without the Spirit, why do you need the Spirit at all, since you already believe in Him without His Spirit? See how senseless the 'free-will' doctrine is?
---christan on 3/30/12


"We know how inferior we are compared to you, and we humbly defer to your wisdom." Pat.pat

This is not a superior/inferior exercise as far as I am concerned. It's about witnessing and testifying the Truth of the Word that God has given to us. It's my Christian duty.

If you see it as I'm coming "across as a self-righteous know-it-all, because you are one of the predestined", that's your opinion. It's all about life and death. Emotions are not my concern.

In the first place, I never declared myself to "be one of the predestined" but I will testify and witness to you according to the Scriptures that God has predestined mankind to either heaven or hell.
---christan on 3/30/12


The Holy Spirit is what empowers Christians for service to God. Before Jesus he was only given to Prophets,Priests,and Kings by anointing them with an oil for which the formula was given by God and commanded to be used for that purpose only. The Apostles were empowered by God with them,Jesus Christ,who was given all power in heaven and earth. He breathed on the Apostles and said receive the Holy Ghost but it wasn't given until in the Upper Room. I believe hearing the Word of God comes first which causes a person to believe in Christ by faith. Repentance happens when God/Holy Spirit draws people to repent and accept Christ,at that time all of God enters the heart. The Holy Ghost later comes into the Temple of our whole body.
---Darlene_1 on 3/30/12


"the GIFT of eternal life thru Jesus Christ" CraigA

No arguments there, it says so in Romans 6:23,"but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.". But is that all there is? Isn't there something missing that you are trying to hide?

"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Ephesians 2:8 - you need God's gift of "FAITH" and then be justified by faith.

Eternal life in Jesus Christ has a "process", or as Paul teaches, it's predestined. It's not by your whims and fancy 'free-will' that you think one can choose to be saved. For your information, there's no such doctrine in the Scripture.
---christan on 3/30/12


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What I get from reading the Bible is this:
God draws people to Christ by the preaching of Christ and the Cross. The Holy spirit gets ON them, convicting them of their sins causing them to repent of their sins and ask Christ into their hearts and opening their eyes, then the Holy Spirit is no longer ON them but IN them.
This is what happened to me. This is what the Bible teaches.
The Holy Spirit cannot dwell inside someone without being asked to come in.
ON and IN are to different things. It seems some here confuse the two.
---ginger on 3/30/12


The Seg, I really don't know what Bible these people are reading. How can they not know? It is written. The whole of Scripture is clear. Jesus testifies of the Father, The Holy Spirit testifies of Christ. How hard can that be? What are these people reading? Don't they stop to think that the only reason they know about Christ is because of the Holy Spirit? What is missing in their lives?
---Mark_V. on 3/30/12


The 12 disciples believed in Jesus Christ and followed him without the Holy Spirit because He was not yet given (John 7:39). Please go study this.

Yes study this!
You believe the Holy Spirit was not there?
He was not yet given (John 7:39). But!
All four gospels, Mat_3:16, Mar_1:10, Luk_3:22, Joh_1:32.

Was not given, but was most definitely there.
Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Joh_5:19-- Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do:...
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/30/12


Jesheradan, you are wrong. Here is why,
( John 14:17) "The Holy Spirit was already dwelling among them" and if you read (John 20:22) "Christ bestowed the Holy Spirt on them while He was still with them"

It was not until Pentacost that the Holy Spirit's ministry was to "permanently indwell believers." The Holy Spirit was active before Pentecost in the lives of both Old and New Testament believers.
In (John 16:7) it was expedient for Christ to go away, so that the permanent indwelling would occur to all who believed. And they could not believe by faith unless they were born of the Spirit. No one can know and believe Christ without the Spirit, for the Spirit testifies of Christ.
---Mark_V. on 3/30/12


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This question will NEVER be decided this side of heaven.
Mark_Eaton on 3/29/12

I know its not just me!
1Co_12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Is this not clear, please if its not make it clear to yourself.
Everything is by the Spirit of God.

1Co_12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom, to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit,

Even faith!
1Co_12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit, to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit,

Tell me something that come without It?
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/29/12


You cant even say Jesus is the Lord without it.
So it doesnt matter what you think, if you cant say Jesus is the lord.

1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
Doesnt this sound like God to you?
Will you deny the Spirit Of God! WOW!

1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free, and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Peace!
---TheSeg on 3/29/12


Christan, the GIFT of eternal life thru Jesus Christ.

(Insert next insult here)
---CraigA on 3/29/12


//You are saying you "can believe without the Spirit"? Unbelievable//---Christan

Its very believable Its right there in scripture. The 12 disciples believed in Jesus Christ and followed him without the Holy Spirit because He was not yet given (John 7:39). Please go study this.

Why do you think it was expedient for Jesus to go away? (John 16:7)
---Jasheradan on 3/29/12


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Christian, we understand that it is quite all right for you to come across as a self-righteous know-it-all, because you are one of the predestined, and God doesn't care how you act, since He can't do anything to keep you out of heaven. We know how inferior we are compared to you, and we humbly defer to your wisdom.
---Pat.pat on 3/29/12


faith is to the body of christ like rebirth is to the twelve tribes.

it is the same, but it is different. it is different, but it is the same.

Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
---aka on 3/29/12


this blog question does not make sense

no such thing as a regeneration of Gods Holy Spirit

regeneration to desribe baptism Titus 3:5 and the restoring of Gods government on earth when Christ rules earth from Jerusalem AFTER the resurrection Matt 19:27-29

Christ CLEARLY describes one cannot be Spirit IN THE FLESH

one is reborn to SPIRIT at the resurrection 1Corin 15

human faith is NOT the same as Spiritual faith

however prior to baptism one must have the human faith needed to be baptized and have human faith to understand GODS promises are real

one does not have Gods Holy Spirit dwelling in them unless they are baptized and obey
---Rhonda on 3/29/12


This question will NEVER be decided this side of heaven.

First, the word regeneration should not be used when describing new birth.

When Jesus taught about regeneration, it was about the resurrection (Matt 19:28). Jesus never mentions regeneration to Nicodemus. He mentions new birth, new spritual birth.

The describing of regeneration in Titus 3:5, is of a new origin, a new source, a new birth. Also used in Titus 3:5 is washing. As we know, washing in relationship to salvation is accomplished by the blood of Jesus. Therefore, it is the washing of the blood of Jesus that causes the new birth, not anything before that.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/29/12


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christan* Now if Christ died for the 'entire world" as you have proclaimed - why should there be anyone in Hades? Why?

Because:

"if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off, it is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire."( Mt 10:43)

" The Scriptures you study give witness about me.But you refuse to come to me and receive life."( Jhn 5:40)

"Jesus' disciples heard this. Many of them said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"

"From this time on, many of his disciples turned back. They no longer followed him." ( Jhn 6:60,66)
---Ruben on 3/29/12


Mark 4:14 "The sower soweth the word."
Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

"How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"
What's that?


Romans 10:10_11 "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."
---Nana on 3/29/12


"He can, but He only gives the gift to those who believe in his promises." CraigA

Give the gift of what? The gift of faith? Do you know what's a "GIFT"? If you have to work to earn God's "gift of faith", it's no more a "gift" but a debt.

Paul clearly teaches about your kind of salvation, "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." - which is no salvation at all.

At least through your own confession, we know you are a works monger.
---christan on 3/29/12


"Obviously a man can believe without the Spirit regenerates him. The 12 disciples did." Jasheradan

Jesus declared, "It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." You are saying you "can believe without the Spirit"? Unbelievable.

And if you are right, since you can "believe without the Spirit", why does Jesus say, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."??????? Why even bother to go through spiritual regeneration at all, since you can "believe without the Spirit"?
---christan on 3/29/12


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Start Spangled Banner

"Tis the star-spangled banner, O! long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave."

Why are our jails full and those in them not free?

Wrong choices? Likewise,
Deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"
---Nana on 3/29/12


--why should there be anyone in Hades? Why? Isn't Christ God? Why can't He save "the entire world" as you proclaim?--Christan

He can, but He only gives the gift to those who believe in his promises. Trust is a very important thing to God. So much so that He is willing to cast aside all those who don't trust in him. Its never been about our sin,since He has always been perfectly willing to forgive if we change our minds about the things we do.

Thank you for the kind words once again, Christan. Your loving spirit always shines through
---CraigA on 3/29/12


"Scripture clearly teaches that Christ died for the entire world" CraigA

Really? Answer this question: will there be souls in Hades? I sure would like to hear your answer on this.

Now, I'm "assuming" you have to say "yes, there will be souls in Hades". Now if Christ died for the 'entire world" as you have proclaimed - why should there be anyone in Hades? Why? Isn't Christ God? Why can't He save "the entire world" as you proclaim?

And you have the audacity to say "Your entire doctrine is based from assumption. How can you be so hypocritical?"

You know what Christ told the Pharisees? "You are like your father the devil"!
---christan on 3/29/12


Faith comes first.

The disciples had faith WAY before they had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. In fact, indwelling was not possible because the Holy Spirit had not even been given yet.
They did not get that until Christ breathed on them. Even then, they did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them. The Holy Spirit was upon them and walking around with them...inside Christ!The indwelling of the Holy Spirit did not and could not happen until Christ ascended to the Father after dieing and rising from the dead.
---ginger on 3/29/12


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FAITH COME FIRST

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

So we cannot tell when we are truely born again.

We can pin point to the minute when we choose to have faith in Jesus
---francis on 3/28/12


You only assume it does. Don't assume!--Christan

Your entire doctrine is based from assumption. How can you be so hypocritical?

Scripture clearly teaches that Christ died for the entire world and that God desires all men to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved, but YOU ASSUME that must not be true since not everyone will be going to heaven.

Remove your plank then worry about our splinter.
---CraigA on 3/28/12


I took this from a message board I was reading the other day but its a very good question and fit this topic perfectly.

[[["There are some who believe regeneration precedes faith.

Romans 5:1 clearly states that we are justified by faith.

If regeneration happens before faith, then regeneration also happens before justification.

How can this be possible?"]]]
---LindaH on 3/28/12


Agree with Nana. Acts is full of examples of people who believed in Jesus Christ but had not yet received the Holy Ghost. The Holy Spirit is what regenerates us. Obviously a man can believe without the Spirit regenerates him. The 12 disciples did.

Christan is also partially right because it is the Spirit that draws us to Christ. The Spirit witnesses to our hearts, but the sinner must decide if He will trust Jesus or trust his own ability to save himself.

I believe the scripture you gave Christan just confirms the Fathers will behind the Spirit drawing men to Jesus Christ. Scripture declares the Spirit convicts the world of unbelief (John 16:9)
---Jasheradan on 3/28/12


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When a person is born again, I understand, he or she is changed by the Holy Spirit to have faith in Jesus. Regeneration changes the person into faith. So, the two are together.
---willie_c: on 3/28/12


michah9344, you show verses inviting or commanding sinners to repent, believe, and come to Christ. BUT notice, no where in these verses state sinners can or are able to come to Christ by their 'free-will', does it? You only assume it does. Don't assume!

Jesus declared, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44 - clearly, Jesus calls you a liar to suggest you have the 'free-will' to go to Him.

He then knocks the final nail to your 'free-will' coffin declaring "Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." John 6:65
---christan on 3/28/12


Believe and be saved...
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear, then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given], because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
---micha9344 on 3/28/12


Regeneration comes first. Its the work of God by the Holy Spirit who changes the stoney heart. He does not ask permission to change the heart, if He did, no one would say ok.
Once God draws you to Himself, you are no longer separated from God. He brings you to spiritual life, and gives you the faith to believe when you hear His word. You are granted repentance. "Of His own will" He brought us forth by the Word of Truth that we should be a kind of first fruit of His creatures" ( James 1:18). It was of His own will and not our own.
"For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in Him but also suffer for His sake" Phil. 1:29).
---Mark_V. on 3/28/12


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If one's living in the OT, Scripture wasn't completed. One could be forgiven if you were scratching your head and wondering what's going on with your salvation.

However, the Word of God is now finished and salvation is clearly explained and declared. How God saves, He has told it to us by His prophets and apostles. The last prophet being none other than His Son Jesus Christ.

Salvation is orderly and simply put by Paul, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." Romans 8:29,30 - it's systematic. Why is one confused?
---christan on 3/27/12


Luke 8:15
Romans 10:14 "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"
Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Cornelius, Acts 10.
Acts 8:37 "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
Acts 8, Simon's heart not right.
Acts 19:2_7: "He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost...."
---Nana on 3/27/12


Salvation first. It says in Romans that we were saved while we were still sinners.
---Pat.pat on 3/27/12


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