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Explain Romans 7:20

Explain Romans 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. Does this explain the situation with Paul before or after his conversion?

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 ---lee1538 on 3/27/12
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lee1538, you tried to deny 1John3:9 Christians "CANNOT sin" with that "habitual" sin doctrine.
You even said "those who make a practice or lifestyle of sin are of the devil."
Now you're backing off from your claim.
It's time to accept 1John3:9 means "cannot" sin.

1John1:8 speaks to UNBELIEVERS. Note the wording of 1John 1.
"Bear witness".."show unto you that eternal life".. "declare we unto you".."that ye also may have fellowship...with the Father, and..Jesus"..."if we say we have fellowship and walk in darkness" (without Christ).

Rom 3:25, ONLY PAST sin was forgiven. NOW that we're in Christ (2Co 13:5) we CANNOT sin.
---Haz27 on 4/6/12


lee//// John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If this is was written to Christians, then it is a very serious matter for those who claim they are sinless as clearly the truth (Truth) in not in them

Lee...This was not written about Christians, but to the gnostic group who believed they had no sin.
---JIM on 4/6/12


Haz, believers need Christ. Because only He is perfect. You cannot stand before God without Christ who is our Mediator. There is no possible way you can now stand before a holy God without your Mediator. Why? Because without Christ you are sinful. God answers our prayers in the name of Jesus Christ. Our sins are forgiven, but we are still sinful. If we were not sinful, after been saved, we would not need Christ ( our Mediator), He would just save us and leave us. The necessity of the mediation of Christ arises from the existence of sin. Sinners are brought into a state of reconciliation because of Christ. This should be understood by every genuine Christian. That is why we are told that if we claim to not sin, the Truth is not in us. Christ.
---Mark_V. on 4/6/12


lee1538: Jesus is the lamb of God who took away the sin of the world (John1:29).
He set us free from sin (John8:36, Rom 6:7).
His sacrifice was better than the OT YEARLY sacrifices in that our sin has been purged and NOW there is NO MORE conscience of sin(Heb 10:2-4).
Our PAST sin was forgiven, Rom 3:25
Now we cannot sin because his seed is in us (1John3:9).

Lee, why is it so hard for you to accept that Christ's ONE sacrifice took away/purged sin out for us? Scripture testifies of it.
We are now righteous, holy (Rom 11:16), sanctified and perfected (Heb 10:10,14). In Christ we cannot sin.


---Haz27 on 4/6/12


1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If this is was written to Christians, then it is a very serious matter for those who claim they are sinless as clearly the truth (Truth) in not in them.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith, prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
---lee1538 on 4/5/12




//Using the example of Christian divorcees who remarry, this is adultery (Mark 10:11,12) resulting in damnation.

If this is your problem, perhaps you may create a forum thread where we can discuss it from a practical and Biblical standpoint.

There is no sin that cannot be forgiven unless it is the sin against the Holy Spirit.

Sorry but I seen too many cases where a divorce is forced upon another whether they liked it or not. And in come cases, one partner disserted the other. Your view creates a victim out of those that are innocent.

In the Christian faith, we do not kill our wounded but attempt to minister to them that they may again live full and abundant lives in Christ.
---lee1538 on 4/5/12


lee1538: The "practice" interpretation of 1John3:9 is ambiguous at best. The NAS even uses BOTH "practice" and "cannot" sin, showing both terms imply the same.

Under the "habitual" sin doctrine many Christians are lost based on lifestyle.

Using the example of Christian divorcees who remarry, this is adultery (Mark 10:11,12) resulting in damnation.
You argued this is not applicable to the innocent party. BUT many Christians are NOT the innocent party.
You then argued that to condemn such is being legalist. BUT that is exactly what "habitual" sin doctrine is.

Your convoluted, unscriptural doctrine is error and shows that 1John3:9 means "cannot" sin.
---Haz27 on 4/5/12


//I hope everything is now ok regards the family emergency.

Thank you as my wife is coming home from the hospital today. The bleeding has been stopped and the infection is under control.

If you view Mark Eaton's comments, the Greek in 1 John under discussion is of a continual nature thus the translation that those who "practice sin" really have not the truth in them.

I only had one semester of Greek, but I can see that much.

As stated before, simple observation of Christians tell us that we all struggle with sin hoping to overcome the propensity of the flesh.

Romans 7:25b So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
---lee1538 on 4/5/12


Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God.
--Apparently some on here no longer need Christ.
Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness, considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
---micha9334 on 4/5/12


lee1538: I hope everything is now ok regards the family emergency.

You said regarding "habitual" sin doctrine: "those who make a practice or lifestyle of sin are of the devil."

You later said that this is a doctrine from Barnes Notes.
I suggest discarding Barnes Notes as such a doctrine is contrary to the gospel.

If you do not accept Barnes' "habitual" sin doctrine, then do you now see that 1John3:6-9 says that Christians "cannot" sin?
---Haz27 on 4/4/12




Haz, let me remind you again, you are responsible for your sin. When you don't take responsibility for your sin, you suggest the Spirit is not in you. For the Spirit convicts us of our sin. That's why the passage says, the Truth is not in you, (the Spirit of Christ) and call God a liar because they deny they don't sin. God says yes, and you say no.
If we cannot sin, there would be no need to remind believers of their conduct, or to be aware of false teachers, or take up our Cross or abide in Him, or to walk in the Spirit for we would always be walking in the Spirit. If you are not carnal sometimes, you would not need God to chasten you, and if you are not a partaker of God's chastening, you are illegitmate. Not a child of God.
---Mark_V. on 4/5/12


//Your "habitual" sin doctrine CONTINUALLY FAILS scrutiny. You've been adapting it throughout this debate as you try to make it work somehow.

It is NOT my sin doctrine but that of Barnes Notes:

(a.) He who is born again does not sin habitually, or is not habitually a sinner. If he does wrong, it is when he is overtaken by temptation, and the act is against the habitual inclination and purpose of his soul. If a man sins habitually, it proves that he has never been renewed.
---lee1538 on 4/4/12


thanks Mark Eaton.
Various Bible versions describe 1John3:6-9 as either "cannot" or "practice" sin. In fact the NAS version even uses BOTH "practice" and "cannot" sin.

The "practice" (or "habitual") sin translation is ambiguous and can be read either way (such as NAS presents it).

Scripture confirms scripture however, and we see other scriptures which confirm the "cannot" sin version is the better description in 1John3:6-9.
---Haz27 on 4/4/12


Your "habitual" sin doctrine CONTINUALLY FAILS scrutiny. You've been adapting it throughout this debate as you try to make it work somehow.
---Haz27 on 4/3/12

It is not doctrine, it is how the verses read in the language they were written in. Unfortunately for us who speak English, we do not have anything like this in our language.

The Greek language has verb conjugations where the action:
- takes place only in the past
- takes place only in the future
- is continual (never ending)
- starts in the past continuing to the present
- has no time reference

What Lee is referring to is the verb "to sin" in 1 John are in the conjugation form of continual.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/4/12


haz27 //And what of those examples I asked about?

Thought that I already responded to these issues.
//You habitually neglect the Sabbath hence you're of the devil (1John3:8).

The sabbath is like circumcision, it is not mandatory for the Christian.

Do you light a fire in your stove on the Sabbath - a law? Exodus 35:3

//And what of divorced Christians who remarry? This is adultery (Mark 10:11),

There are valid reasons given in the Bible for divorce and it is not adultery for the innocent party to remarry.

Is divorce and/or re-marriage an unforgiveable sin. Only if you are a legalist.

By habitual is meant characterized, not an addiction or bad habit one struggles against.
---lee1538 on 4/4/12


Haz27 //Our mentor is CHRIST.

If your mentor is Christ, then you need to listen to those who He has called into the ministry of teaching, not some old street bum who someone pulled out of the gutter somewhere and had little or no training in the Bible or its doctrine.
---lee1538 on 4/4/12


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ALL - I will not be posting on Christianet for an indeterminate time as I have a very serious medical emergency in my immediate family that will occupy most of my attention.
---lee1538 on 4/4/12


Lee, Paul acknowledged his sin in (v.14) "For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin" He wouldn't acknowledge his sin, if the Holy Spirit had not convicted him of sin. "the Law is spiritual" reflects God's holy character. "Carnal" lit. "of flesh" means, earthbound, mortal, and still incarcerated in unredeemed humanness. Paul does not say he is still "in the flesh" but that the flesh is in him. "Sold under sin" says sin no longer controls the whole man (as with unbelievers) but it does not hold captive the believers members, or his fleshly body (v.28)Sin contaminates him and frustrates his nner desire to obey the will of God.
---Mark_V. on 4/4/12


lee said: "Is your mentor a street preacher whose brain has been soaking in alcohol..?"

Our mentor is CHRIST.
Psa 23:1"The LORD is my shepherd"
Isa 40:11"he will feed His flock like a shepherd"
Matt 2:6"Bethlehem...For out of you shall come a Ruler Who will shepherd My people Israel.
John10:2-11"he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep."
"Then Jesus said to them again, Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep."

1John2:27:"ye NEED NOT that any MAN teach you"
John14:26"the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, HE shall TEACH you all things"
Psa32:8"I will instruct thee and teach thee.
---Haz27 on 4/4/12


lee1538:I said ESV,NAS use "ambiguous" wording. You interpret this ambiguous wording to fit your doctrine. Note NAS uses BOTH "practice" and "cannot" sin. You prefer "practice" only bec it suits your doctrine.

Your "habitual" sin doctrine CONTINUALLY FAILS scrutiny. You've been adapting it throughout this debate as you try to make it work somehow.

And what of those examples I asked about?
You habitually neglect the Sabbath hence you're of the devil (1John3:8).
And what of divorced Christians who remarry? This is adultery (Mark 10:11), so they're in "habitual" sin and of the devil according to you.

It's time to accept 1John3:9 means "CANNOT SIN".
---Haz27 on 4/3/12


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Haz27//As for ESV, NAS, they both use ambiguous wording in 1John3:6-9, ... to contradict versions like KJV.

So you admit your interpretation really reflects a particular Bible version you believe to be correct.

It is true some other versions will support your understanding of 1 John, but I would argue from the reality standpoint.

Addicts really could never be Christians according to your interpretation bec their addiction does not disappear immediately.

And from my own experience, I have had to struggled against some habitually sins such as smoking.

But we struggle with the desires of the flesh - Gal. 5:17.
---lee1538 on 4/3/12


Haz27//You trust in man so much you can't let go of commentaries and trust in God for teaching.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

If you are so trusting that all you need is the Holy Spirit within you for your teacher, then all you need to do if called into the ministry is to mount the pulpit and preach away.

The rest of our poor souls have to go to seminary and study study study and learn all about doctrine and all the different interpretations, church administration, counseling, etc. etc. and then be approved by our superiors before we can become a minister of the gospel.

Is your mentor a street preacher whose brain has been soaking in alcohol and drugs for years?
---lee1538 on 4/3/12


lee1538: I do not follow any church movement. I have attended many different churches, including Charismatic. I have never heard of Charismatic churches saying Christians don't sin.

As for ESV, NAS, they both use ambiguous wording in 1John3:6-9, hence those who believe Christians sin will use this ambiguous wording from ESV, NAS to contradict versions like KJV.

I never said Christians become robots. You misunderstand me. We define "sin" differently. Yes, our lifestyle improves gradually as Christians, but "sin" is referring to something other than what you think it is.
---Haz27 on 4/3/12


Haz27 //This must be because of your trust in man and traditions,...

I need to ask one question. Do you reject modern versions of the Bible such as the ESV, NAS? Or do you, like commentaries, believe they are the work of man?

Usually the Holiness / Charismatic people believe one become incapable of sin when born of God's Spirit.

Being born again by God's Spirit has been a dramatic experience in the lives of many, but in itself, did not create in us robots. Looking back, many bad faults fell away as I learned to walk with the Lord.

Rarely have we seen substance addicts become clean in one single day.

So what am I to believe as such has been my own experience as well as the observed experience of many others?
---lee1538 on 4/3/12


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Mark_Eaton:

You ask why someone would ask a rhetorical question. God did it in the Old Testament - since he is omniscient and already knows the answer to all questions, any question he asks is, by definition, rhetorical. Jesus did it in the new testament too. Whenever the Pharisees tried to trip him up, he would ask them a question that he knew they could not come up with a good answer to.

Such questions are not asked for their answers, but to bring out secondary issues. When Adam hid in the garden, God asked where he was (Gen. 3:9). This was to get him to admit eating from the tree. When Jesus asked the Pharisees about John's baptism (Mt. 21:25), it was to point out their hypocrisy, since any answer would condemn them.
---StrongAxe on 4/3/12


Therefore now (ara nun). Two particles. Points back to the triumphant note in #7:25 after the preceding despair. Robertson's Word Picture commentary.
---lee1538 on 4/2/12

I must ask you as a brother in Christ, why do you ask questions for which you have already determined your answer?

As you and I both know, the passage in Romans 7 is highly debated on both sides of the question. I can see both sides of it as I am sure you can also.

But why do YOU ask the questions? Is it confrontation you want? Is it debate on questions? If it is debate, then please offer your own opinions and not that of others. Wisdom is the ability to use knowledge in a way that benefits all. Use wisdom instead of mere knowledge.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/3/12


lee1538: I'm in no church movement.
As for Holiness movement, well ALL Christians are in that movement as Christ the firstfruit is holy therefore the lump is also holy, Rom 11:16.
And I see your in that Presbyterian Orthodoxy movement.

You admit that you reject the scholars/commentaries that support scripture 1John3:9 Christians "cannot sin". This must be because of your trust in man and traditions, as your lack of scripture to support your view has been demonstrated throughout this debate.

Your trust in man instead of God is getting you into error. Consider these scriptures again
1John2:27: "ye NEED NOT that any MAN teach you"
Psa32:8 "I will instruct thee and teach thee."
---Haz27 on 4/3/12


lee1538 said: "we should trust God and His word over that of man."

But Lee, you always refer to your trusted traditions of man, commentaries etc, to argue with. You have no scripture supporting your view.

Here's what scripture says that you hate so much.
1John3:9 "cannot sin"
1Pet 4:1 "ceased from sin"
1Pet 4:18 We're "Righteous" (not sinners).
Rom6:2 "dead to sin"
Rom 6:7 "freed from sin"
All confirmed by Rom 3:25 our PAST sin is forgiven (meaning there's no more future sin).

And those who sin are:
1John3:8 "of the devil"
John8:34 "servants of sin"

Lee: Why twist scripture from what it clearly says?
---Haz27 on 4/3/12


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Lee, 1. the word (now) or (present time) is simple, Once they were condemned without Christ, now there is no condemnation to those in Christ.
2. Christians today are more equip to learn the Word of God. God gifted many great man to help us learn. God's word has power no matter from whom it comes from.
3. (Rom. 7) concerning Paul, he was converted already. Paul was speaking against "Dualism."
which teaches that the body is evil and the spirit is good, so its adherents sinned with impunity by claiming they were not responsible, that their sin was entirely the product of their physical bodies, while their spirits remained untouched and unsullied. But the apostle had already acknowledged personal guilt for his sin in (v.14).
---Mark_V. on 4/3/12


Haz27 //And what of Paul when he first became a Christian?
Gal 1:12, 16 I neither received it from man, NOR was I TAUGHT it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood
Gal 2:6 ...for those who SEEMED to be something ADDED NOTHING TO ME.
-----
We can truly say that of Paul since He was an Apostle specifically appointed by God to bear witness to the Gentile world and to pen Scripture.

However, we do not have the same commission as Paul did and we will not be writing scripture.

Those in the Holiness or Charismatic movements believe all they need is the indwelling Spirit, but they really do not understand God's word.
---lee1538 on 4/2/12


haz27 //lee1538 said: "you want us to put aside the commentaries"

If your pastor expounds on the scripture from the pulpit he essentally becomes a commentator.

If you listen to him, then why not listen to others that expound on the Word of God?

Your assumption that when one is born again by God's Spirit that he then acquires all the knowledge of the Bible and its doctrine is totally without merit.

A couple of my commentaries agree with your position that believers become sinless, but their arguments are too often refuted by the writers of other and better commentaries.

And yes we should trust God and His word over that of man but that is the reason I reject your interpretations.
---lee1538 on 4/2/12


lee1538 said: "you want us to put aside the commentaries"

You trust in man so much you cant let go of commentaries and trust in God for teaching. You've been a Christian for some time now, surely your not a baby Christian anymore needing milk?

And what of Paul when he first became a Christian?
Gal 1:12, 16 "I neither received it from man, NOR was I TAUGHT it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ."
"I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood"
Gal 2:6 "from those who seemed to be something(whatever they were, it makes no difference to me, God shows personal favoritism to no man)for those who SEEMED to be something ADDED NOTHING TO ME"






---Haz27 on 4/2/12


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christan: My apologies for confusing you in my statement about unbelief.

The unbelief reference, John16:9, was referring to the previous sentence regarding those who seek to establish their own righteousness therefore not wanting to submit to the righteousness of God.

My other point about repentance was a totally separate one. Christians HAVE repented so NOW there is NO MORE REPENTANCE.

Once again sorry for the confusion. My mistake in making those 2 separate points in one sentence together.
---Haz27 on 4/2/12


//Romans 8:1 contains a word in GREEK that means "at this time", "at the present time", "immediately", or "now".

You are in a sense correct.

The "now" in 8:1 matches the "now" in 7:6, showing that the new era of redemptive history has 'now' been inaugurated by Christ Jesus for those who are 'now' in right standing before God because they are united with Christ. But the summary relates further to the whole argument presented in chapters 3 thru 5. ESV Study Bible footnote.
---lee1538 on 4/2/12


//What the verse says is this:

Rom 8:1 (my translation) Therefore, at the present time there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus".
-----
close but it can be accurately be viewed slightly differently.

Therefore now (ara nun). Two particles. Points back to the triumphant note in #7:25 after the preceding despair. Robertson's Word Picture commentary.
---lee1538 on 4/2/12


Most certainly there is no condemnation for those in Christ, however, that does not say Christians cannot sin.
---lee1538 on 3/30/12

I am not certain what your agenda is.

Your flippant answer "If you have doubts find someone that is an expert in English grammar" points out to me that you are not word-centric because Romans 8:1 contains a word in GREEK that means "at this time", "at the present time", "immediately", or "now".

What the verse says is this:

Rom 8:1 (my translation) Therefore, at the present time there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus".

Does that help your understanding of the verse and Romans 7?
---Mark_Eaton on 4/2/12


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"...trusting God for understanding" Haz27

I'm pretty, pretty sure this understanding which you spoke, ""REPENT EVERY DAY" ??? Repent means to turn away from the offence/STOP doing it. If we're repenting EVERY DAY then we never really repented to begin with." is most definitely not from God Almighty.

Wait, there's more, you say, "This is unbelief John 16:9. Christians HAVE repented. Theres NO MORE REPENTANCE NOW." John 16:9 talks about unbelief in Christ is good enough to send a soul to hell. Not unbelief in repentance!

It's quite clear you're an antinomian from the words you speak!
---christan on 4/2/12


Haz27 - it is very foolish of you to think newborn Christians immediately understands all there is to know about God and doctrine.

And that in part is why God gave teachers to His church as He works through them to teach us.

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles, and some, prophets, and some, evangelists, and some, pastors and teachers,

Yes you want us to put aside the commentaries written by those who God has called into the ministry of teaching because they do not support your deception that Christians are incapable of sinning.
---lee1538 on 4/2/12


Lee
Paul says he sinned because sin lived in him.
(Romans 7:16-17)
And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

Paul also says that he died to sin?
(Romans 7:9)
Once I was alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

If that which caused Paul to sin died, did Paul still sin?

Many people tell me they have died to sin, if this is true they have taken away the cause for their sin.
If there is no cause for their sin, is it not willful sin?
---David on 4/2/12


lee1538: You say you trust God, so consider what God says:
1John2:27: "ye NEED NOT that any MAN teach you"
Eph 4:21: "If so be that ye have heard him, and have been TAUGHT BY HIM,
1Cor 2:12 "we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God, that we might KNOW the things that are freely given to us of God."
John14:26 "the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, HE shall TEACH you all things"
Psa32:8 "I will instruct thee and teach thee.

If you trust God then are you willing to pack away your commentaries etc and refer to the Bible ONLY, trusting God for understanding, as He says He will do?
---Haz27 on 4/2/12


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//lee1538 You trust man's traditions/mainstream history.

I do not trust anything of man, but instead of going to seminary and getting a degree in theology I look to those who have been called into the ministry of teaching.

//BUT we should trust in God, not man.

Totally agree! That is why I reject your view that Christians do not sin.

//Remember:"you do not need that anyone teach you, but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things" 1John2:27

Then why did the Lord give teachers to His church if not for our benefit? 2 Tim. 3:16-17

Sorry but no one is born again and immediately possesses understanding of all doctrine.
---lee1538 on 4/1/12


lee1538 You trust man's traditions/mainstream history.
BUT we should trust in God, not man.
Remember:"you do not need that anyone teach you, but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things" 1John2:27

Note Paul's account of when he first became Christian.
"I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me,
Gal 1:16

"But from those who seemed to be something (whatever they were, it makes no difference to me, God shows personal favoritism to no man) for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me." Gal 2:6

lee, trusting in man leads you into error. Trust God instead.
---Haz27 on 4/1/12


Haz27//By your logic Christians are in CAPTIVITY to the law of sin still. Why do you deny Jesus set us free from sin (John8:36, Rom 6:2,7)?
---
In Christ the cage door of our captivity has been removed and we are free from the bondage of sin but we need to walk out of the cage and learn to walk in His Spirit. We need to appropriate that which has become ours.

Frankly your argument true Christians are sinless is at variance with the testimony of God's saint thruout the ages. Have you ever read any of their testimonies, say that of Martin Luther?

Romans 7:25b So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul did NOT say he formerly served the law of sin.
---lee1538 on 4/1/12


Haz27 -Yes, I can see that Romans 7:8, may be viewed as past tense but 7:15, 7:18 are in the present tense.

(7:5) in my understanding may speak of Paul being not yet born of His Spirit.

The bottom line verse is (7:25) which is in the PRESENT TENSE.

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Yes, there are those who have only a religious philosophy. They have not been born of His Spirit. I used to be in that situation thinking for years since I believed in the existence of God and a good moral person, I was a Christian. It was only when Christ came into my life and upset everything that I was born of His Spirit.
---lee1538 on 4/1/12


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David -Agree that 1 John 2:4-5, 1 John 3:6, and these other verses tell us that we really have no righteousness of our own. And yes, we need to abide in Him because when we do, we do not sin. But Christians do not always walk in His Spirit.

But if we interpret scripture with scripture, we realize that from time to time, we do fail our Lord.

James 3:2 For we all stumble in many ways, and if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body.

While free from the BONDAGE OF SIN, we do not become robotic and lose our capability to sin.
---lee1538 on 4/1/12


lee1538: Note the similarity between these scriptures.

Rom 7:8"But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire."
Rom 7:15 "for what I would, that do I not, but what I hate, that do I"
Rom 7:18 "For I know that in me (that is, in my FLESH,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not."

Compare the above to Rom 7:5:"For when we WERE in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the LAW, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."
Notice how they ALL speak of being UNDER law and failing to keep it?
BUT, Rom 7:5 says that was when we WERE (PAST tense) in the FLESH.
---Haz27 on 4/1/12


1 John 1:8KJV If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
---lee1538


Lee
Read what John wrote in (1 John 2:4-5), (1 John 3:6), (1 John 3:8-10), (1 John 5:3) and what Jesus taught in (John 8:34 & 35). And then you should clearly see that you must be reading (1 John 1:8) out of the context in which it was written.
(1 John 2:4 & 5)
4He that saith, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whosoever keeps his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.


How can a sinner say they are keeping God's commandments when sin is the transgression of the Law? (1 John 3:4) KJV
---David on 4/1/12


lee1538 said: "are you a super Christian totally free from sin of both the mind and flesh?"

Why would you say "sin of BOTH the mind and flesh"?

Rom 7:23 says "with the mind (Spirit) we serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin" Rom 7:25.

You have changed this to say BOTH parts sin. BUT scripture shows that the mind (Spirit) "serves the law of God". How is this "sin"?

Christians ARE in the Spirit (Rom 7:5 & 8:9).

Those who are not in the Spirit are in "CAPTIVITY to the law of sin" Rom 7:23.

By your logic Christians are in CAPTIVITY to the law of sin still. Why do you deny that Jesus set us free from sin (John8:36, Rom 6:2,7)?
---Haz27 on 4/1/12


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lee1538: Are you saying you are in "CAPTIVITY to the law of sin" (Rom 7:23)? Because to be in the flesh you serve the law of sin, Rom 7:25.

Scripture shows Christians are NOT in the flesh (Rom 7:5, Rom 8:9). Hence we are not in CAPTIVITY to the law of sin.
We are in the Spirit (Rom 8:9) hence "with the mind (Spirit) we serve the law of God" Rom 7:25.

As Gal 5:18 says "if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law".
But if your in the flesh you serve the law of sin by establishing righteousness through the law, thus making yourself a transgressor/sinner, Gal 2:18

Only one can rule. Either you're under grace OR works, Rom 11:6. You're either righteous OR a sinner, 1Pet 4:18
---Haz27 on 3/31/12


//Trust in God instead of man's traditions and commentaries.

If it were possible for you to be completely honest with yourself you would have to admit that the reason you do not accept Bible commentaries written by those the Lord has called into the ministry of teaching His Word, is simply because NONE of them support your view that Christians are incapable of sinning.

Did you come out of some very dark pit of sin, that you have grown to hate it so much that you are now unable to recognize it in yourself?

1 John 1:8KJV If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Your world must really be a make-believe. Suggest that you get help with your problems so you can face reality.
---lee1538 on 3/31/12


Haz27 you continue to miss the mark on what is taught in Romans, especially chapter 7.

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then
with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin (Romans 7:14-25).

Your view that you are sinless is really not from scripture but is really a doctrine of demons designed to make christians question their salvation.

He who claims to be without sin, the truth does not in him.
---lee1538 on 3/31/12


lee1538: As you claim that Rom 7 shows that Christians are in sin still, in spite of the cross, then can you answer this question.

Rom 7:23, in speaking of the battle, shows the outcome being "bringing me into CAPTIVITY to the law of SIN".

Are you saying you are in "captivity to the law of sin"?
---Haz27 on 3/31/12


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lee1538: David makes a good point saying: "And that's the problem, it's a doctrinal view created by men"

Whilst we do agree on the gospel, imputed righteousness, etc, your error doctrine that Christians remain in sin in spite of the cross is a doctrine created by man and not supported in scripture.
Your inability to find scripture to support it confirms this.

Trust in God instead of man's traditions and commentaries.

1John2:27 "ye need not that any man teach you teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, ye shall abide in him"
---Haz27 on 3/31/12


yes, our salvation by not by works of righteousness fpr He has chosen us before the world begin.
---lee1538 on 3/31/12


Lee
If God had chosen you before the world began, you must also believe the coming of Jesus Christ was unnecessary.
If not tell me why you need a Savior when you were saved before the Savior even got here?
---David on 3/31/12


//As this habitual sin idea is clearly a flawed doctrine have you rejected it now?

I agree with those more knowledgeable of the Bible and the Greek from which it was translated.

1 Jn 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins, no one who sins have seen Him or knows Him.

[Here and in similar places in this Epistle the Greek verb has the force of a continuous present tense (cp. 3:6, 5:18) and thus denotes a person's habitual attitude towards sin as expressed in his practice of or non-practice of it. John is not speaking of a state of perfection in which is impossible for a Christian ever to sin, but he is stressing the fact a Christian cannot keep on practicing sin, bec he is born of God.] Footnote New Scofield Study Bible NAS.
---lee1538 on 3/31/12


David 2 //Your salvation will be based on your obedience to the Gospels of Christ. (2 Thessalonians 1:8)

Thess. 1:8-9...but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God, Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,...

yes, our salvation by not by works of righteousness fpr He has chosen us before the world begin.

Scripture also teaches that the righteous shall live by faith (Gal. 3:11, Romans 1:17)
---lee1538 on 3/31/12


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Sorry but that has been the doctrinal view of the church since its conception. Your view that Christians are incapable of sin is really an aberration
---lee1538 on 3/30/12


Lee
And that's the problem, it's a doctrinal view created by men. Proven by the fact that's not supported by the Gospels of Christ.
Not only are these teaching not supported by the Truth, in effect they call Jesus a Liar.

A few Examples:
In (John 8:34) Jesus is wrong.
In (John 14:21) Jesus is wrong.
In (Matthew 19:17) Jesus is wrong.

Your salvation will be based on your obedience to the Gospels of Christ. (2 Thessalonians 1:8)
---David on 3/31/12


lee1538: Remember this discussion started over 1John3:9 where it states Christians "cannot sin". You tried to explain this away as "habitual"sin but have been unable to justify it. You have even made contradictory claims on it.
As this "habitual sin" idea is clearly a flawed doctrine have you rejected it now?

You claim that Rom 7 shows Christians are still in sin, in spite of Rom 7:5 and Rom 8:9 saying we are NOT in the flesh. Clearly if we walk in the Spirit and not the flesh then this means we do not sin.

And Rom 7:23 says there is another law "bringing me into captivity to the law of sin".
Are you saying you are still in captivity to sin?
---Haz27 on 3/31/12


David//I believe one has an evil heart, or one has good heart,.... not both.

And I also agree, however, having a good heart does not mean one is unable to sin and if he does, he is not evil as in the sight of God, we are righteous in our Lord Jesus Christ who shed His blood on our behalf for all our sins, past, present & future.

Sorry but that has been the doctrinal view of the church since its conception. Your view that Christians are incapable of sin is really an aberration.

Your view is one that would disturb those who would question their salvation and ignores the fact that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer.
---lee1538 on 3/30/12


Mark_Eaton//The true key to understanding this passage in Romans 7 is to look at Romans 8:1 "There is NOW..." Why use the word NOW if you have been talking about NOW for the last two paragraphs.
---
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

"Now" in the verse really a conjunction - "in view of the fact". See Websters Collegiate Dictionary. If you have doubts find someone that is an expert in English grammar.

Most certainly there is no condemnation for those in Christ, however, that does not say Christians cannot sin.

.
---lee1538 on 3/30/12


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David Are you of the view one can do anything and such cannnot be viewed as a sin?
---lee1538 on 3/30/12


No, I believe one has an evil heart, or one has good heart,.... not both.
When Jesus taught those who lust and hate are guilty of sin, he was referring to their heart.
You either have a good heart that does what is righeous, or you have a evil heart that causes you to sin.
Sin is not the act of those who God has made good.

As far as your other comment, you make a good point and I will see if I can show you Paul was speaking past tense.
---David on 3/30/12


lee1538: Your focus on "tense" makes you lose sight of scriptural context.

Consider 1Tim 1:15 where Paul says "to save sinners, of whom I am chief".
Here he speaks present tense, but it's by way of comparing everyones record as sinner together.
When taken in context we see 1Tim 1:13 explaining what gave him such a record. He blasphemed and persecuted the church. He certainly is no longer doing these things so CLEARLY he was talking about his PAST record.

Likewise Rom 7. There is no good thing in the FLESH. And it will try to take over again if we allow it. But,as Rom 7:5 and Rom 8:9 show, we "WERE" in the flesh, but NOW we walk in the Spirit.
---Haz27 on 3/30/12


David - you still need to address that fact that Paul in Romans 7 uses the present tense, not past tense when he states

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.

17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

Are you of the view one can do anything and such cannnot be viewed as a sin?
---lee1538 on 3/30/12


Rom 7:20 Paul is speaking of his present state as well as our present state. Paul never achieved sinless perfection, in his lifetime, we don't either.
He does break the Word down into three eras of time, "time past", "but now" and "the ages to come"(Eph.2) We are in the "but now" era. Paul is our "pattern", that's why we are to follow him as he "followed Christ"
---michael_e on 3/30/12


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Clearly the translators would have used PAST tense if Paul was speaking of his former state.
---lee1538 on 3/29/12

Really.

I can remember past experiences in such a way that I re-live them as I am telling them. In a sense, I am "there" when I am telling them. If someone heard me telling the memories during this time, they would certainly say that they were happening right then and there. Yet, these things may have happened years before.

The true key to understanding this passage in Romans 7 is to look at Romans 8:1 "There is NOW..." Why use the word NOW if you have been talking about NOW for the last two paragraphs.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/30/12


Paul was sharing his past experience with us. Giving us the symtoms he experienced when he was a slave to sin.

Many believer's have these symtoms, and they deny the Truth by saying they are not slaves to sin.(John 8:34)
They ignore these symtoms, these symtoms that clearly tell them if they are a slave to sin, or a slave to righteousness.(Romans 6:16)

If you do not want to sin, but you do sin, why do you sin?
It's because you are still a slave to sin.
---David on 3/30/12


Read Rom 7 from start.
Verse 1: "for I speak to those who know the law"
Verse 5:" For when we WERE in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law"
Verse 6:"But NOW we have been delivered from the law"
verse 18:"For I know that in me (that is, in my FLESH) nothing good dwells".
verse 24,25:"Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

So where does Paul stand?
Rom 8:9"you are NOT in the FLESH, but in the Spirit"

Walking in the Spirit you're freed from sin/cannot sin.
Walking in flesh your establishing righteousness through law, therefore making yourself a sinner (Gal 2:18)



---Haz27 on 3/29/12


Paul was giving a supposition. Romans 7:20 from lit.Gk: "Now pretend I do what I should not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me."
Paul is very clear in Romans chapter 7: "For WHEN WE WERE IN THE FLESH, the passions of SINS, which were aroused by the law, did work in our members to bring forward fruit onto death. BUT NOW WE ARE DELIVERED from the law, having died to what we were held by." Rm.7:5,6.
---Eloy on 3/29/12


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Romans 6:7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.

when a man dies he is exempt from the power and dominion of his master, of him who reigned over him.

The Christian had been subject to sin before his conversion, but he has now become dead to it.

And as when a servant dies he ceases to be subject to the control of his master, so the Christian being now dead to sin, on the same principle, is released from the CONTROL OF his former master, SIN. The idea is connected with #Ro 6:6, where it is said that we should not be the slaves of sin any more.

6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be ENSLAVED to sin.
---lee1538 on 3/29/12


Mark_Eaton//So Paul who has been freed from sin is describing himself in bondage to sin. Therefore, he must be referring to his former state before conversion.
---
Then why does Paul speak in the present tense in Romans 7?

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.

17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

Clearly the translators would have used PAST tense if Paul was speaking of his former state.
---lee1538 on 3/29/12


The context of Rom 7:20 begins in Rom 7:14 with the words

Rom 7:14 "For we know that the Law is spiritual but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin".

Surely, when Paul wrote this he was not in bondage to sin, because he told us so in Rom 6:7,

Rom 6:7 "for he who has died is freed from sin"

So Paul who has been freed from sin is describing himself in bondage to sin. Therefore, he must be referring to his former state before conversion.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/29/12


This is before Pauls conversion. You have to read all of chapter 7 and even into 8 to understand what he is saying.
---JIM on 3/29/12


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"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13) What God works to do, He succeeds. We will not succeed in our own willing, but God working in our will succeeds to do what He desires to do with us. And this turns out to be better than we can think and try to do, and Jesus' own prayer guarantees this > John 17:22-23. So, if we are busy with if we are sinning or not and if we can sin, our attention maybe belongs instead with submitting to how God in us works our willing and doing, and "Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:14) "And walk in love . . . ." (in Ephesians 5:2) So, is our attention where our attention belongs?
---willie_c: on 3/29/12


Usually it is those that belong to one of those old Holiness Movement denominations that promotes the view that Paul was speaking in Romans 7 before his conversion.

They promote the view that there is a second act of grace bye which they become holy in their livestyles.
---lee1538 on 3/28/12


He also says, "the good that I will to do, I do not do," Romans 7:19. Well, God could have him doing better than he can think and will to do. So, maybe by trying what he could will, he was making himself available to failure. This sounds like his thorn in the flesh problem, having a "messenger of Satan" who could "buffet" him (2 Corinthians 12:7-10) and find his weak spots, any time in ego he was trying to do what he could think, himself. But Jesus says, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." (in 2 Corinthians 12:9) Then we can be like the Philippians who were more obedient after Paul was not with them (Philippians 2:12). What do you think?
---Bill_willa6989 on 3/28/12


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