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Salvation At Calvary

Was Christ's death at Calvary, also known as the "atonement", saved the sinner from his sins or did it make the sinner only savable because he still needed to "choose or accept" Christ? What does Scripture truly declares?

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"Why do you think the Bible speaks of the veil being torn in half the moment after Christ died?" Blogger9680

Amazing! What a fantastic doctrine of 'free-will' you have. Where did you get the idea that the veil in the temple that was asunder represented 'free-will'? If your understanding is right, I hate to think that all the saints in the OT are now frying in Hades because they had no access to their 'free-will' then. Poor souls.

Amazing how you make up the Word of God as you happily frolic along with your'free-will'. Please o please, show us where in the epistles that teaches of such a doctrine as the one you just spew from the bottom of your belly?
---christan on 4/9/12


Eloy, how could you possibly believe the Truth of Scripture if you believe there is righteous people out there without Christ? You believe three kinds of people go into heaven? Here is what you preach, and call youself a prophet, that a person without Christ, His Spirit dwelling in him, can enter the kingdom of God on his own free will. Shear nonsense. Then you turn around and say if you don't have free will, you are a robot, and God a liar. God does not lie. you lie. God is perfect, you are not. You cannot stand before God without Christ. No matter how much you put Him down. Maybe your works are that you cleaned a dirty toilet and He didn't. And your works get you end because He did not do what you did. And you are deserving of salvation.
---Mark_V. on 4/9/12


Christan,
Are you saying that a person can't believe Christ without having his spirit inside him first?

That is not what my bible says or any one that I have read in my whole 40 years.
The Spirit of Christ - Holy Spirit was not even given until he died on the Cross. So tell me, how did the disciples believe? Christ did not even breath the Holy Spirit on them until AFTER they believed he is the Christ.
The disciples believed and they did not have the Holy Spirit inside them yet.
Please explain why you think the Holy Spirit is in a person first before they get saved?
Cause no where does the Bible say that.
It DOES say believe and then you will receive.
---ginger on 4/9/12


If people have no free choice to follow Christ, then people are mindless robots, and the Holy Bible is unholy, and God is a liar when he says that people receive their just derservings for their works, and God would be a sinner in condemning any soul to hell since no soul has free choice to do good.
---Eloy on 4/8/12


What is a peat sakes?
---Eloy on 4/8/12




Blogger9680, "access by faith into this grace" doesn't imply, by 'free-will' one can enter as and when you like---Christan

Of course it does. Why do you think the Bible speaks of the veil being torn in half the moment after Christ died? (Mk 15:38) Because our High Priest Jesus Christ has cleared the way into the Holy of Holies (the dwelling place of God) by his own blood.

Believing Gods provision in his Son Jesus Christ and going boldly to the throne of grace shows God that you believe He is a keeper of his promises. He WILL grant us forgiveness and a new life because Jesus Christ died for all men. This is faith! (Heb 4,16, 11:6)
---Blogger9680 on 4/8/12


"OH for peat sakes, now we need keys and passwords to come BOLDLY WITH CONFIDENCE to the throne of GRACE?"

Let's see how one enters God's Kingdom without being born of His Spirit and without His gift of Faith. Or is Ephesians 2:8-10 too hard for one to understand how a sinner is saved? That's the "keys and passwords" to His kingdom.

But wait, I forgot your 'free-will' is enough, or is it? But which part of the Scriptures speaks of such lies? However, Christ did prophesy what will happen in His Day in Matthew 7:21-23 - mind you, these whom He rejected are "false christians", for they called Him "Lord, Lord". So let's see where your 'free-will' leads you on the Lord's Day.
---christan on 4/8/12


Blogger96, you want to believe in free will so bad, but it doesn't exist in the Bible. Why? Because God never said man had free will. He speaks against it. It is written,
"The preaching of the Cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" (1 Cor. 1:18). The Truth is foolishness to those who are lost.
To make sure they understood Paul said,
"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling-block, and unto the Greeks foolishness, but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God" Don't you understand? Only those which are called, those receive the power and wisdom of God. The others get nothing.
---Mark_V. on 4/8/12


---you now have "access into my office", can you enter without a key or password? Obviously not. I've to give you a key or password, then you can have access, right? Similar to salvation, God must work His grace through faith in the sinner, that he can believe in Christ.christan//

OH for peat sakes, now we need keys and passwords to come BOLDLY WITH CONFIDENCE to the throne of GRACE?

So God picks and chooses certain people giving them keys and passwords?

Here is the KEY and Password.

JESUS CHRIST is the Password, Jesus Christ is the KEY.

BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and you have access to the Father through His Son.

Do you have to also have a special tatoo to show the gatekeeper?
---kathr4453 on 4/8/12


Blogger9680, "access by faith into this grace" doesn't imply, by 'free-will' one can enter as and when you like. Eg, you now have "access into my office", can you enter without a key or password? Obviously not. I've to give you a key or password, then you can have access, right? Similar to salvation, God must work His grace through faith in the sinner, that he can believe in Christ.

Keywords to Romans 11:22-24 is "kindness and sternness" which is another word for "mercy and wrath". 'Free-willers' use such verse "Otherwise, you also will be cut off." to justify 'free-will', that one has to do something for God to reward you with faith. If that's so, it's no more grace.
---christan on 4/7/12




---Faith is what He gives to those whom He only loved
---christan on 4/7/12

I suppose you have scripture stating this?

The last I read the Holy Spirit convicts the entire world of sin and unbelief in Christ (John 16:8) and God is drawing all men to himself (John 12:32). Meaning He wants all men to believe the truth and be saved (1 Tim 2:4)

It sounds like you think too highly of yourself and thats why youre unable to accept that God loves everyone the same as He loves you.
---Blogger9680 on 4/7/12


"God NOW (in the New Covenant) chooses on the basis of faith." Blogger9680

You're tripping all over your 'free-will', aren't you? Faith to you exist only in the New Covenant? If you're speaking truth, we've to throw Hebrews 11 out the window and into the thrash.

Note that Hebrews 11 teaches specifically about Faith. What it did when the 'heroes' of the OT received it from God. Were they in the 'New Covenant'? The covenants of God does not nullify or void the previous covenant. It simply and slowly revealed the concealment of the previous according to God's own timing and purposes.

God's election is unconditional according to Romans 9:11, not based on faith. Faith is what He gives to those whom He only loved.
---christan on 4/7/12


No contradiction Mark.

Gods sovereign will and right is to decide on what basis He will and wont save us.

God NOW (in the New Covenant) chooses on the basis of faith.

What pleases God is when you come to Him believing that He will do what He promises, even though you know you don't deserve it. Your faith does not save you. Whom you put your faith in does!

For by GRACE are ye saved, through faith...

By whom (Jesus Christ) also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God


"I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved (John 10:9)

If you were already saved, why did you need to go thru the door?
---Blogger9680 on 4/7/12


(Romans 11:22-24)
"Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! "

MarkV, what does this passage mean to you?
---Blogger9680 on 4/7/12


How can Christ heal someone who doesnt believe?
Because, seeing they see not and hearing, hear not, neither do they understand!
And in them, is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias!

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

But blessed are your eyes and ears.

For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them, and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Peace
---TheSeg on 4/7/12


Blogger96, you are contradicting youself. You first make a case for free will, which isn't even in the Bible because the will is not free, and God would not give out false information. Then after you have made a case, you then contradict yourself when you say,

"Paul is using them as an example to prove that God can change the basis for who He wants to save and who He doesnt."

"He wants to save and who He doesn't"
Here you acknowledge that if God wants to save someone He does, and if He doesn't, He doesn't" what happen to the free will of men? You try to incorporate free will into the word of God, but it will never reconcile with the Word. It cannot. Mens will is fallen.
---Mark_V. on 4/7/12


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LindaH, the great difference between the doctrine of 'free-will' and Sovereign Grace is 'free-willers' like you nullify and make void of God's Sovereign Grace.

I have no objections to the verses you quoted from Scriptures, my objections is with your understanding. For eg, Isaiah 53:6 applies only to sheep (God's chosen, which Christ will refer to and died for). But there are 'goats' too, which you don't seem to talk about, which turns God's Sovereign Grace on His head.

Paul never shied away from talking about 'goats' aka 'vessels of dishonor fitted for destruction'. Half truth is no truth, period. You want to preach that God loves, then also preach that God hates. Otherwise, you're not speaking the whole Truth!
---christan on 4/7/12


--Wrong and wrong. Jesus didn't die for the "entire" world--Christan

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2)

All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned every one to his own way, and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:6)

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour, that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man (Heb 2:9)

If God is working mightily in Paul to present "EVERY MAN" perfect in Jesus (Col 1:27-29), shouldnt you be for that as well?
---LindaH on 4/6/12


"You also forget that JESUS died for everyone because he loved the whole world." Samuelbb7

Wrong and wrong. Jesus didn't die for the "entire" world BUT He did die for, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37.

For if He did "loved the whole world", why would He pray to the Father "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me, for they are thine." John 17:9

You may think you are speaking the Truth, but you're not even any closer to what Christ has spoken. And NO, Paul was not contradicting Christ, if you read his epistles carefully.
---christan on 4/6/12


Christan, the words 'free-will' do not exist in scripture. But there are hundreds that contain "choose", "believe", "obey", "keep", "follow" and last but certainly not least "repent".

---You still think it's because man has to do something good, like obey God, to be saved, don't you?---Christan

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Believing in what God has promised is not a "work", but He does require it from us (Romans 4:20-24)
---Blogger9680 on 4/6/12


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Job matters because he proves that your interpretation of Romans 9 is incorrect. Romans 9 is not speaking of individuals elected to salvation, its about the NATIONS of Israel and Edom. And not ALL of Edom is hated by God, because Job is an Edomite!

Paul is using them as an example to prove that God can change the basis for who He wants to save and who He doesnt.

Its clear from continuing the reading of Romans 9:30-11:36 that Gods choice is now based on whether or not a man puts his trust in Jesus Christ.
---Blogger9680 on 4/6/12


Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Two verses. Christian. You also forget that JESUS died for everyone because he loved the whole world.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/6/12


calhoon, hi!
Would you mind if I ask you something.
Why was the woman weeping at the feet of Christ, and wash his feet with tears?

That could make Christ say
Seest thou this woman?
Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven!
For she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven!
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee, go in peace.
Why didnt he say this to the rich man?

Instead of:
Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Do you see a difference?
Peace
---TheSeg on 4/6/12


Christian,
What must man DO to be saved?
What was the answer Jesus gave?
---calhoon on 4/6/12


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"Id love to know what you think about Job, a descendant of Esau (those who were "hated" by God)" Blogger9680

So what if Job was a descendant of Esau? Herod, Judas, Ahab and Jezebel were descendants of Abraham (who loved God), are they saved too? Are the Gentiles descendants of Abraham? Guess what? God chose them for salvation didn't He?

You still don't get salvation by grace, do you? You still think it's because man has to do something good, like obey God, to be saved, don't you? Well, that's not salvation by grace. That's trying to earn salvation by works which God never promised that's how a sinner will go to heaven.
---chriistan on 4/6/12


"Satan had salvation but CHOSE to revolt. ALL mankind has a choice." calhoon

You know, up till now, none of you 'free-willers' have ever presented a single verse that says God gave His creations the 'free-will' you speak so highly of when He created them. That's because there's none!

But I'll show you a jaw-dropping verse or two, "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Proverbs 16:4, Isaiah 45:7 - many more of these can be found in the Scriptures.
---christan on 4/6/12


It is hard to believe isnt it!
But, just because one doesnt believe something doesnt make it a lie.
But let me ask you in truth, ok! Leaving aside would he or wouldnt he!

The question then becomes, can he?
Not, would God make someone for the sole purpose of destruction.
But, can he make someone for the sole purpose of destruction.

Now one looking for truth, the answer is yes!
But, how many would simple say yes to start with?

Now listen up, I am not saying he will!
But, I am showing you he has!
Now, however you choose to see this, is up to you.
Remember Joshua, well what about all those men, women and children?
Some sobering thought!
Peace
---TheSeg on 4/6/12


BUT, God does with-hold someone from man - the Holy Spirit---Christan

Only if they seek the Spirit by the wrong means such as buying him with money like Simon the sorcerer wanted to. He was told his heart was not right before God and to repent and ask God for forgiveness.

You really shouldnt judge people as lost because they dont agree with you, Christan. Only Jesus Christ could do that.

What did Jesus say? "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"
---Blogger9680 on 4/6/12


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Christan, Id love to know what you think about Job, a descendant of Esau (those who were "hated" by God)

(Job 1:1)
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job, and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil

(Genesis 36:19,28)
These are the sons of Esau, who is Edom, and these are their dukes. The children of Dishan are these, Uz, and Aran.

(Lamentations 4:21)
Rejoice and be glad, O daughter of Edom, that dwellest in the land of Uz
---Blogger9680 on 4/6/12


Satan had salvation but CHOSE to revolt. ALL mankind has a choice.
---calhoon on 4/6/12


We (christians) are led by the Spirit, not by what we JUST read in scripture.We can read and memorize and know not truth.
Christs death made man savable.The work was done before mankind knew of it. We now accept what Christ did for us or we dont.
---calhoon on 4/6/12


"I do NOT believe God withholds the truth from any man." Blogger9680

You're right, that's because it's all written in the Bible. BUT, God does with-hold someone from man - the Holy Spirit. He does not give His Spirit to everyone. This is Christ's declaration about the Word,

"It is the Spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63

Now you know why so many who claim to be Christians, still cannot believe in what is declared in the Scriptures? They think they have the Spirit but in actual fact, they don't. For if they do, why would they reject ALL that's written in the Scriptures, which is spirit and life?
---christan on 4/5/12


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Blogger9680, which verses did you read made you come to this conclusion, "my point is the thing which he required of them was faith."?

The real question is, does this "faith" comes from man himself or does it come as "a gift from God"? We, who's "dead in sins and trespasses", somehow have the power to create faith to please God?

Scripture contradicts you. "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." Keyword word is "NONE". And you want to convince us you can, outside of the "power of God" to believe in Him? That "faith" you think you have? Scripture says it's not from Him.
---christan on 4/5/12


I think youre misunderstanding me Seg. I do NOT believe God withholds the truth from any man. God delights in forgiveness rather than condemnation.

My argument is against such men that would dare claim God only calls a few. Men claiming that those who disagree only do so because they are full of pride, while at the same time are too blind themselves to realize their OWN pride wont allow them to accept the fact that God wants ALL men to be saved.

I liken it to a rotten child who wants to be daddy's favorite and will say whatever he/she can to make the rest of the children feel completely unloved. I dont see Jesus in that at all.

"I desire mercy and not sacrifice" Some still dont know what this means.
---Blogger9680 on 4/5/12


Blogger9680, Ha ha! You still had to get that freewill in there. lol!

We still can never take credit for our salvation (stop) True, so how can it be a choice
Because God could have left us in the dark to begin with (stop) False, in him there is no darkness
Act 17:28


For anyone to claim that God withholds the love of the truth from men simply because He takes pleasure in them burning in hell.
Blogger9680, how many people do you know, have the truth.
I only know two!

May God bless you
Think about this:
Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
Peace
---TheSeg on 4/5/12


--Because the truth is, if it wasnt for God coming to man, man would have never known God. Isnt this true?--

Agreed, Seg

I believe thats why even if we accept the gospel truth that the Spirit bears witness of (by "free will" or "being convinced", whatever one believes), we still can never take credit for our salvation because God could have left us in the dark to begin with.

That being said, it is still taking things too far (not to mention unscriptural and blasphemous) for anyone to claim that God withholds the love of the truth from men simply because He takes pleasure in them burning in hell.
---Blogger9680 on 4/5/12


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On the cross Jesus died the death that every sinner should die. By doing so He made it possible for everyone to be saved ( not die the eternal death) if we repent of our sin and seek His forgiveness
---francis on 4/1/12

I'm afraid to tell you that you believe a false gospel.

I'm even more afraid that someone might read that garbage and believe it. ---James_L on 4/3/12

Are you afraid that someone might believe that jesus died for his sin, and that he might actually repent and seek God's forgiveness?
---francis on 4/5/12


Blogger96, It's hard for you to believe the Truth because for years you've believed in your own free will, something different then what you are hearing now. So you reject it and get angry.
No unbeliever can come to Christ by faith if the Spirit does not testify of Christ to your heart through the Word. "So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Rom. 8:8). If you could come to Christ on your own you would be able to please Him for your own works and even enter heaven without been born of the Spirit. The passage then says "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit (born again) if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you" (v. 9).
---Mark_V. on 4/5/12


Blogger9680, are you saying this woman just walked outside saw Christ and knew.
Or did she first, see or hear?

See to me, it doesnt much matter how you come to God.
As long as you dont think it was by your own hands.

Because the truth is, if it wasnt for God coming to man, man would have never known God. Isnt this true?


So, for a man to tell me, you have to believe, first!
I have to tell that man, the true!

Whoever calls on the Lord shall be saved!
How can you call on what you dont believe?

How can you believe what you dont hear?
How can you hear without someone?

Unless he is sent, as it is written!
Peace
---TheSeg on 4/4/12


\\Just what we needed around here, another inflated ego\\
---Nana on 4/3/12

Huh ? ! ?

Did you read my post, Nana? My fear concerning francis' warped understanding of the gospel comes from my own wapred understanding before I became a believer.

It has nothing to do with ego, it has everything to do with genuine concern. I have met too many "christians" who have no idea how we are saved, it makes me sick to see someone bastardize the gospel of grace and mislead others with the "voo-doo of you do".
---James_L on 4/4/12


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"I hope youre not referring to Ephesians 2:8,9. That passage is about salvation, not faith." Blogger9680

Who denied it was not about salvation. BUT, to receive salvation, the sinner must first receive God's "gift of faith", hence "salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ".

How else does the sinner gets "justified by faith", if he does not receive "the gift of faith from God"? God is Holy and just, He does not justify what's evil and wicked. Since the fall, man is precisely that, evil and wicked. Worse still, they claim they still can go to the Lord by their "own free-will" - telling God they don't need His mercy and grace.
---christan on 4/4/12


"What makes you think you're not among those multitudes..." Cluny

Have I ever made mentions or claims other than show what Scriptures says that contradicts certain claims made by others? I never claimed to be an elect or will not be walking through the broad gate, have I?

Some say:
- "by their free-will, they can believe Christ" BUT I say, according to John 6:44, that's rather impossible.
- "Easter eggs and bunnies" is about Christ's resurrection, BUT I say, show me Scriptures that says so.

It's about what is written in the Scriptures, are we telling it as it is? Apparently not, right? That's why there are camps of "christians" with different understanding.
---christan on 4/4/12


Seg, my point is the thing which he required of them was faith. Belief that he could do the thing which they asked of him.
Even those of whom Jesus was not aware who simply touched his garment in faith were healed. .

Today our FAITH in Jesus Christ is what brings about the spiritual healing. For God is willing that none perish but that all come to repentance. Our sorrow for sin comes after the Spirit has given us new life by coming INTO us. That is when true repentance occurs. Repentance before coming to faith in Christ is our attempt to justify ourselves by "stopping sinning"/"obeying the law". Fear of condemnation vs love for God (2 Cor 7:10)
---Blogger9680 on 4/4/12


Blogger9680, now thats pretty cool!
Was there ever a time in the gospels when Jesus required someone to repent of their sins BEFORE He healed them?
But I notice you didnt say or add saved them?
As in, Thy faith hath saved thee, go in peace.
Or Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

Just wondering, if you see some difference, between healed them and saved them.
Because of:
Christan where do you get the phrase "His gift of Faith" from? It is not anywhere in scripture. I hope youre not referring to Ephesians 2:8,9. That passage is about salvation, not faith.

Just asking
Peace
---TheSeg on 4/4/12


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For by grace are ye saved >>through faith! (Your belief that God is doing this!)
and that not of yourselves>>(it is that faith, that is not yours. But God made it yours!)
it is the gift of God!

(So, that it is) Not of works,
lest any man should boast.

Here, you said, our response!
(but faith is our response to the calling of the Holy Spirit,)
Isn't the calling of God!

But still, hadn't man response to God always been no?
Let me ask you, if faith is man response to God, why, doesn't everyone believe?
Hasn't God always been here?

Doesn't he said, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
And doesn't that word teach you, 1Co 12!
Peace
---TheSeg on 4/4/12


Yes but can a man repent of his sins without the Spirit of Christ living in him?

Was there ever a time in the gospels when Jesus required someone to repent of their sins BEFORE He healed them?
---Blogger9680 on 4/4/12


Repentance refers to a change of mind and purpose that turns an individual from sin to God. (1 Thess. 1:9: 2 Cor. 7:8-10)). Such change involves more than fearing the consequences of God's judgment. Genuine repentance knows that the evil of sin must be foresaken and the Person and work of Christ totally and singularly embraced. The nature of "genuine repentance means "Godly sorrow" that is according to the will of God and produced by the Holy Spirit (2 Tim. 2:25)." True repentance cannot occur apart from such a genuine sorrow over one's sin. Repentance is at the very heart of and proves one's salvation. Human sorrow is unsanctified remorse and has no redemptive capability. It is nothing but sorrow for been caught.
---Mark_V. on 4/4/12


Nana, you might be a happy man going in the wrong direction. I gave the definition of repentance already, but I will give you a small part of it. It's explained in (1 Cor. 7:8-11). (v. 9) "...For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation", not to be regretted, but the sorrow of the world produces death" The 'Godly repentance refers to sorrow that is according to the will of God and produced by the Holy Spirit. Just what Christan said.
(2 Tim. 2:25) "..If God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the Truth.."
---Mark_V. on 4/4/12


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On the cross Jesus died the death that every sinner should die. By doing so He made it possible for everyone to be saved ( not die the eternal death) if we repent of our sin and seek His forgiveness
---francis on 4/1/12

I'm afraid to tell you that you believe a false gospel.

I'm even more afraid that someone might read that garbage and believe it. ---James_L on 4/3/12

You are afraid that someone might believe that jesus died for his sin, and that he should actually repent and seek God's forgiveness?
---francis on 4/4/12


"I'm afraid to tell you that you believe a false gospel.

I'm even more afraid that someone might read that garbage and believe it. "
James_L on 4/3/12

Just what we needed around here, another inflated ego joining the ranks of christan and mark 5!

"Nana, that's how much you understand Scriptures?"
As long as I am not approved by you, your pet theories and childish antics, I am a happy man.
---Nana on 4/3/12


Christan where do you get the phrase "His gift of Faith" from? It is not anywhere in scripture. I hope youre not referring to Ephesians 2:8,9. That passage is about salvation, not faith.

There are places where scriptures suggests that God adds to our faith, but faith is our response to the calling of the Holy Spirit, who convicts men of sin and testifies of the Lord Jesus Christ (John 16:9)
---Blogger9680 on 4/3/12


\\And yet multitudes are heading for eternal damnation\\

What makes you think you're not among those multitudes, christan?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/3/12


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\\possible for everyone to be saved (not die the eternal death) if we repent of our sin and seek His forgiveness\\
---francis on 4/1/12

I'm afraid to tell you that you believe a false gospel.

I'm even more afraid that someone might read that garbage and believe it. That's the same falsehood that I believed for 20 years BEFORE I was saved. Hodgepodge of works, compiling a bunch of conflicting one-liners adn trying to make them blend

Jesus' death didn't make it possible for us to work "in His name" to earn our salvation. Jesus death 'IS' our salvation.

And it is received through FAITH, not my trying to muster some sort of grief, or promising to be a better person

You should repent from dead works
---James_L on 4/3/12


Nana, that's how much you understand Scriptures? Just so you claim you have repented? Well, let me tell you this, the Jews, Muslims and false christians will tell you they have repented to God. And yet multitudes are heading for eternal damnation. Do you think, that's all one need to do? Something is clearly lacking.

Try going to God repenting without "His gift of Faith". "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

Are you repenting with His "gift of Faith" or your own? That's why multitudes will be damned for eternity.
---christan on 4/3/12


Ezekiel 14:6 "Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD, Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols, and turn away your faces from all your abominations.

Ezekiel 18:30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions, so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

Repentance concerning God, always carries action beyond just 'mental assention'.
Frances is therefore correct.

"Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:"
---Nana on 4/3/12


JamesL...the gnostics did not believe they had any sin. they did not think it was real. John was speaking that they needed to confess their sins(v9)
---JIM on 4/3/12


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---James_L on 4/2/

NO JAMES THIS IS THE THING:

I am 100% correct to say
On the cross Jesus died the death that every sinner should die. By doing so He made it possible for everyone to be saved ( not die the eternal death) if we repent of our sin and seek His forgiveness
---francis on 4/1/12

But there is a spirit here that says we must agrue no matter what

I cannot see how any christianc an argue against one repenting and seeking God forgiveness
---francis on 4/3/12


"All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." Matthew 11:27

Unless Christ reveals Himself to you, how are you going to know Him? Rest assured, He doesn't reveal Himself to everyone but only to those whom the Father has given to Him from eternity.

"By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand, and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive... lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."
---christan on 4/3/12


\\John was talking about...gnostics...to receive forgiveness of their sins.\\
---JIM on 4/2/12

Not at all, Jim.

Gnosticism taught that everything in the spirit world is good, and that everything in the physical world was evil. "Salvation" to them was being set free from the physical realm to the spirit world.

John was writing to dispell the notion that deeds done in the flesh had no consequence for a believer.

John wanted the "little children" to walk in light (understanding) so that they would have fellowship (1:3)

The deeds of the flesh do matter (1:8-2:2)

The Gnostics were very proud people, looking down on others who were "ignorant". 2:3-11 was aimed at this
---James_L on 4/2/12


Atonement, Compensation for a wrong.
Luk_5:20 Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
Luk_7:48 Thy sins are forgiven.
Mat_9:6 The Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins.
Mar_3:28 All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men.
Believe ye that I am able to do this?

Well, I can ask do you believe this.
Most of you know this is true, and right away say yes. I do!
But then you add, first you have to choose or accept it.
So, you really dont believe this, do you!

Many of you are saying you have to repent of your sins.
And I believe youre right! But not of the ones, he said shall be forgiven.
But of the one we continually commit.
Peace.
---TheSeg on 4/3/12


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\\I think repentance has many applications.\\
---aka on 4/2/12

Amen !!

francis,
what you are failing to do is understand the difference between a believer and an unbeliever.

EVERYONE is to repent. BUT, when you redefine the word to suit your fancy, you abuse scripture.

Peter said that God wantes all men to repent. Paul said that God wants all men to come to a knowledge of the truth

Your doctrine would have each one leaving out half of the truth.

Were the apostles so deceptive that they hide half of the truth, and the other slides it in 15 years later?

Or do you think repentance in that context means that one has a change of mind to where he now has a knowledge of the truth ???
---James_L on 4/2/12


Rev_2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication [sin], and she repented not.

I think repentance has many applications. we have to reconsider many things to get to know Jesus Christ.
---aka on 4/2/12


James L//1John was written to believers, not unbelievers. It's scriptural abuse to apply that to an unbeliever and give them something to "do" rather than Someone to hope in//

James...I do not believe that to be correct. If you study 1John you will see that indeed it was written to believers, but John was talking about what the false teachers and gnostics in his day needed to do in order to receive forgiveness of their sins.
---JIM on 4/2/12


cluny....iJohn 2:2 says that Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins.
---JIM on 4/2/12


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Salvation is participatorial, a coveneant is a contract entered into between two parties where each party participates on the terms set down. For example: YOU DO THIS, obey me, then I WILL DO THIS, save you and bless you.
---Eloy on 4/2/12


---James_L on 4/1/12

OH James you are right!!!

One who believes in jesus never has to confess his sins, He can just pretend he never did them, he never has to seek forgiveness for his sin, he can just go on in his sins.

what was I thinking!!

repent from sin: who am I kidding. Jesus came to save peple In thier sin, not from thier sins. People never have to repent from sin. you are so right

what was i thinking!!
---Francis on 4/2/12


francis,

Acts 3:19 doesn't say anything about "repenting of sin". It simply says "repent". You are guilty of trying to change the definition of the word to suit your fancy. Repent simply means to "have a change of mind". Acts 3:19 is saying to have a change of mind about Christ. Change from "He's a sucker" to "He's a Savior". From "He's a criminal" to "He's the Lamb of God"

Ditto 2Cor 7:10

1John was written to believers, not unbelievers. It's scriptural abuse to apply that to an unbeliever and give them something to "do" rather than Someone to hope in.


You are advocating confidence in the flesh
---James_L on 4/1/12


---James_L on 4/1/12
I arrive at my conclusion not based on one verse but ALL of scripture

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord,

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
---francis on 4/1/12


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//First off, NOWHERE is Christ's death called 'atonement" in the Bible....//---Cluny on 3/31/12

Nowhere in the Bible is Elohim called the Trinity.

if you do not see the foreshadowing concept, that is fine.

Jesus Christ's sacrifice of Himself was atonement...the only atonement or sacrifice that satisfies His Father.

remember how God provided the sacrificial offering in Isaac's stead? God also provided His Son in man's stead.

that is a working definition of atonement.
---aka on 4/1/12


\\On the cross Jesus died the death that every sinner should die. By doing so He made it possible for everyone to be saved ( not die the eternal death) if we repent of our sin and seek His forgiveness\\
---francis on 4/1/12

Wrong, francis.

Is this an accurate reading of John 3:16 ???

For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son, that whosoever repents of his sins and seeks His forgeiveness will have everlasting life

??? ??? ??? ???

The gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who BELIEVES

You can't arrive at your conclusion without taking verses out of context and asserting your presupposed doctrine onto the text
---James_L on 4/1/12


Well, it says, "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2) So, Jesus Himself is our propitiation.

It doesn't say His sacrifice is, but "He Himself" is.

And I understand by means of His sacrifice He made atonement on the cross, for us. But it is because Jesus is pleasing to our Father, that He could make atonement for us.

And Ephesians 1:12 talks about how we "first trusted in Christ". So, by trusting in Jesus we receive all He has prepared for us, on the cross.
---willie_c: on 4/1/12


\\Deu_21:8 Accept atonement, O LORD, for your people Israel, whom you have redeemed, and do not set the guilt of innocent blood in the midst of your people Israel, so that their blood guilt be atoned for.'\\

I don't know what this has to do with the original question.

The KJV renders this verse not as "Accept atonement...." but "Be merciful...." Obviously, there are disputes about the correct translation of this verse.

And the context is NOT a Messianic prophecy, but the rites of Yom Kippur.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/1/12


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You an accept or reject what Christ accomplished for us.
Paul makes it very simple, it's your choice

1 Cor.15 1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand, 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
---michael_e on 4/1/12


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

omans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Romans 5:11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

On the cross Jesus died the death that every sinner should die. By doing so He made it possible for everyone to be saved ( not die the eternal death) if we repent of our sin and seek His forgiveness
---francis on 4/1/12


cluny is mostly right, but the scriptures tell us that we have to accept the true gospel. 2Co_11:4. it also says by deduction that the spiritual man accepts things of the Spirit of God.1Co 2:14

Deu_21:8 Accept atonement, O LORD, for your people Israel, whom you have redeemed, and do not set the guilt of innocent blood in the midst of your people Israel, so that their blood guilt be atoned for.'

Deu_33:11 Bless, O LORD, his substance, and accept the work of his hands, crush the loins of his adversaries, of those who hate him, that they rise not again."
---aka on 3/31/12


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