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What Is Sovereign Grace

What is sovereign grace?

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 ---Jane on 4/6/12
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The wages for sin is not grace. Grace is given only to those whom earn it, and wrath and damnation are given to those earn it: for whatsoever a person sows, that will the soul also reap:
Ephesians 2:10- "WE ARE CREATED in Christ Jesus, ONTO GOOD WORKS, whom God who before prepared, THAT IN THEM WE SHOULD WALK." Ephesians 2:10.
---Eloy on 4/12/12


Eph 2:8 tells us that we are saved by grace and that not of ourselves, that it is a gift of God.
Rom 3:24 tells us that we are justified by His grace.
John 1:17 tells us that grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
2 Tim 1:9 tells us that we received grace in Christ before the foundation of the world.
Rom 11:6 tell us grace is not of works.
1 Cor 15:10 Paul is the example: we are what we are by the grace of God.
Definition of Grace: Unmerited favor from God the Father.
Conclusion: Grace must be sovereign!
---trey on 4/11/12


moderator permit-bro.Mark,my heart goes out to you,you know / remember get aggressiveChemo..since be 'nChristiaNet.Even now,often I am sometimes l "confussed"... please accept my apologies,nev'r did fully "grasp" what happen.Thankyou,just pray I can get a ministry similar help me pray & understand this Chemo/need healing. not out of my system,..So,embarrassing but,praise God I am still alive.Peace I return bro.Mark.
---ELENA on 4/11/12


---For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners'.

And what He desires is not strict legalistic conformity to law but mercy, not condemnation, on those that are sinners.

We see from the Bible, the Sabbath keeping, law promoting religious establishmentarists got the most kick in the face by our Lord.
---lee1538 on 4/11/12


Lee1538. Calvinist Pig? No actually you sound like a hypocrite. Always bashing the SDA's in teh head, yet are blind to your own click/clan who openly disagree in words and actions to your statement here.

I'll bet if I spent my time here bashing hte SDA's night and day, you would never say one nasty thing to me.

You are not in a position to point fingers in judgement.
---kathr4453 on 4/11/12


Kathr while I agree with you most of the time I dont think arguing and name-calling with Mark is going to help. He is obviously very hurt by what someone in the catholic church has done to him and his heart is hardened. He has tried to escape that pain in a false doctrine.

MarkV, the only path to healing is forgiveness. You will never escape the pain of what happened until you forgive the other person, even if they dont deserve it. None of us did.

Be the better man and forgive.

On a side note, my heart does truly bleed for those who are unsaved. If you only knew me better...
---CraigA on 4/11/12




Kathr4453 //But isn't there something about a NAGGING woman in Proverbs.

At the risk of being labeled a chauvinist pig, I can easily see why the Lord forbid women to be teachers of men. 1 Tim. 2,12f.

Have you every considered that the fact that you could learn more if you would do less talking and more listening? After all the Lord gave you one mouth and two ears so you should use your ears twice as often as your mouth.
---lee1538 on 4/11/12


MarkV, brother, I suppose you are trying to address what I said about the outpouring of the Spirit.

Scripture bares witness twice.. In Joel and fulfilled in the book of Acts. That is th moment that the Holy Spirit was made available, poured out on all flesh so that all flesh has no excuse. It convicts the whole world of its sin. Some just do not head the conviction. You seem to ignore the fact that God did this for a reason too. So he could pass righteous judgement on those who do not repent of the sin they are convicted of.
That too is God's sovereign grace. Though sinners have not repented, God still gave them the chance even though he knew they would not accept.
Also proves no person can have the HS in them until they repent.
---ginger on 4/11/12


The phrase "sovereign grace" appears nowhere in the KJV.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/11/12


LeeJ this is what the verse REALLY SAYS. Let's be honest here and correctly state the Word of God.

James 1:19-20
19Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

20For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

But isn't there something about a NAGGING woman in Proverbs.

Markv...sister stop being a nagging woman! Nag, nag nag nag nag!
---kathr4453 on 4/11/12


Question MarkV, are you still married? Did your wife of who you abused spiritually leave you. Is that why your son wants nothing to do with Christianity. YOU are to blame. YOU refuse to take responsibility for that.
Your the reason he's not saved, and because you won't take responsibility , it's so easy to HIDE behind your doctrine rather than REPENT of your bullying your wife and family.

REPENT MARKV!!

Well, I'm not your wife or your son, so just know, you are out of line to BULLY anyone here.

CN should put you out like a dirty cat who sprays all over.
---kathr4453 on 4/11/12




Kathr, I post your lies everyday. I don't miss a day, because you lie every day. And guess what? I will continue to, because I'm on the side of the Truth, so I am not afraid of evil. You never try to debate, you attack the messenger. No matter how many Scriptures they put down for you, your response is always the same, to attack the person. And then turn the Truth of God's Word to a lie, bringing your heretical views. That Jesus Christ was not the eternal Son of God. Stripping the deity right off Christ, without fear of God. Even when I leave, someone will will always be here to answer you.
---Mark_V. on 4/11/12


ginger, the word of God says and read it from the beginning what comes first, talking about believers,

"But when the kindness and the love of God "our" Savior toward man appeared, not of works of righteousness which we have done, "but according to His mercy He saved "us" (first) through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit," whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior."

God through the Holy Spirit made us alive together with Christ. Why? Because of His great love with which He loved "us" the believer.(Eph. 2:4). He does not do this to all man. Only to those He is going to save He brings to spiritual life.
---Mark_V. on 4/11/12


Instead of getting all hot and bothered it is better to control your angry and simply respond to the accusation (if there was one?).

The Christian really needs to realize that those who proclaim themselves to be Christians thinking that what really counts is their ethical behavior, are usually those that really get hot under the collar when they are told they are sinners.

James 1:19 Know this, my beloved brothers (and sisters): let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger, for the anger of woman does not produce the righteousness that God requires.
---lee1538 on 4/11/12


MarkV, HOW DARE YOU make up nonsense here and then pass judgement on your own overactive imagination. Guilty before being proved innocent. Condemned only by your imagination. Do you have FACTS and dates. Can you PROVE your lies here.

Why do you continually MAKE UP stiff??

What ever you believe someone is DOING, it's You doing it to yourself.

MarkV how old are you really? You sound like a 5th grade girl. A whiney little girl.
---kathr4453 on 4/11/12


Craig, I know what you and Kathr and a few others are trying to do, find fault in what I say. But I am honest with my answers. I know who I am before Christ. You tell us your spirit bleeds for them. And that we should love them and save them, if that is the case and you cannot sleep because they are been lost, the internet has access to pedophiles who live in your area, there is thousands of them, I don't hear you or Kathr say, that you are knocking down their doors so they can be saved. If your spirits bothers you so much that you have to tell us, why are you not answering to the spirit? I know why, You talk, your spirit hurts, to look like a good Christian but you don't do. You know what that is? A hypocrite.
---Mark_V. on 4/11/12


Christians KNOW that it is Christ in you that CHANGES you. You are a NEW CREATURE In Christ, and given a NEW HEART AFTER you come to Christ, not before.

No I did not change myself, and even to this day cannot change myself. MY Change comes as I die to SELF through my identification with Christ in death, and walk daily raised up together with Christ. This change will continue to go on till I die or the Lord comes.

I First believed Jesus died for my sin, asking Christ into my heart. BUT it wasn't until AFTER that moment that God called me by my own name and asked me for my WHOLE LIFE. I said YES! Total surrender. God's LOVE and MERCY poured our all over me. No begging was required.

MarkV says I'm not saved.
---kathr4453 on 4/11/12


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ELENA, God bless you and all your family and friends. I know many things here bother you, but relize it's a matter of the times we live in that Christ's Body, His Church are persecuted and under attack. We don't need to fear these attacks and rocks thrown at us. I don't believe we need to let these bullies bully either, but BOLDLY stand for the truth. Christ in us gives us that strenght and power to stand against the enemy.

Some feel it's their calling to bully, and fight tooth and nail with wife, their son, and now even here to FORCE their flavor of philosophy on others. They've made an 8 hr a day career out of it. So sad! The monent you mention the BLOOD or the CROSS they go bananna's, and try to change the subject. That is not of God!
---kathr4453 on 4/11/12


Elena, very good post you put down about the prisoner. I'm glad that God put it in your heart to witness to him. There is many great prison ministries. Run by brothers and sisters whom God has put a burdon on, to work in those kinds of ministries. There is many others who are not called to do them, but to witness to others. Even mom's have a ministry. They witness to their children and are doing a great job at it. Not everyone has the same burdon. Many Christian doctors do ministries overseas helping the sick. Thanks for your information, peace I leave you.
---Mark_V. on 4/11/12


The Bible from Genesis to Revelation is about JESUS CHRIST. A ME MYSELF AND I cult think scripture is all about THEM.This is probably why they are not able to separate what scriptures do and do not belong to the Church either. A good indication of this ME MYSELF AND I cult is taking scriptures out of context, scriptures that belonged exclusively to Israel and apply to themselves. The WOF do this and Calvinism also does along with many false teachings.

It is so important to study to show ourselves approved OF GOD, (AND GOD ALONE) a workman needing not to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth.

I know I'm saved. What judgemental pharisees they really are. NO Forgivness, or compassion, who say STONE them, they deserve it.
---kathr4453 on 4/11/12


Actually MarkV, God POURED HIS SPIRIT out ON you so that you could call on Christ.
He was NOT in you BEFORE you called on Christ. He was in you AFTER you called on Christ.
That is what God did/does in all his sovereign grace. He poured his spirit out on all flesh. TO convict ALL of sin, to bring ALL to repentance even though he knows some just won't listen. We see from this that God is in control of everything.
---ginger on 4/11/12


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MarkV, brother it does matter

Luke 6:36-38

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Give, and it shall be given unto you, good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Matthew 6:14-15
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
---ginger on 4/11/12


Excellant post! - bro.Eloy 4/10/12we are family! Have great respect for all my brothers & sisters. Elegante & senstive responsible way you wrote your text. it is informative,tactfull & ' not insulting. thankyou! neighbors read here! who I know.. not Christians!I sincerely, hope they're encouraged 'n dig deeper! get saved! love of Jesus!
---ELENA on 4/10/12


Craig, you asked me,

"MarkV, you have to forgive that man for what he did. You have to or else the Father will not forgive you."

It matters not whether I forgive them or not, what really matters is whether God will forgive them. And whether God forgives me, and He has. As a human being, still in the flesh, and a pedophile rapes, tortures and killed my child, I would never forgive him. I would pray that God destroys that man before he rapes and kill's another child again. Child molesters don't ever change, just listen to their testimonies. God can change anyone, if He so wills. Man cannot change who he is. My salvation came by the grace of God. Not by anything I have done or will do.
---Mark_V. on 4/10/12


moderator permit- What so ever you have learned or received or heard from me-put intopractice.And the peace of God will be with you.Col.4:9 God is love. My family,Phi.4:6 Do not be anxious about anything,but in everything by prayer and peticion,(we all present with thankgiving unto God.) thanks also go out to CraigA. May the love of Christ bound us allbrotherly & pray for one another!
---ELENA on 4/10/12


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hello,family,Really need to share with you,it really hit home been many yrs. Ittook me 6 yrs.to forgive..God will give grace,any of us!one of my relatives was abuse another relative..Long story short that child grew up & killed that adult relative. I share this, lost 2 people loved by me. Since,then I have tried to share Christ & my own exp. yes,with people who are on their way,soon to either prison or suicide.That was very important to me to possibly save any child! Believe it or not one person did come to the Lord,I told him what happen...the hurt,the shame,the confussion it caused alot of distance.Our family,no one talks to me. I am at peace.God has shown me if nothing love,forgiveness & don't judge anyone.
---ELENA on 4/10/12


Kathr, you are finally right, I am so glad I am not God. I would mess everything up for I am a sinner saved by the grace of God. I didn't save myself by calling on the name of the Lord, God saved me and called me so that I could call on Christ. If He had not drawn me to Himself I would still be confuse and need healing. Praise be to God that He had mercy on me. I admit God came to save me for I could not change my own heart. Evidently you were able to change your own heart and then received your reward.
---Mark_V. on 4/10/12


hello,family,For Kathr4456 wow! That's right Paul was the accuser & murderer of the Christians! we currently study'n the Apostles & primitive church(first Christian church) the bible. Paul became really humble & really persecuted every where he went! thanks! Love of Jesus!
---ELENA on 4/10/12


MarkV, don't you realize it's only by the Grace of God you are NOW not a pervie. But before your salvation you were just as evil as the most evil person IN GOD'S EYES. God did not PICK YOU OUT because you were less evil than the next. God certainly hates SIN, but loves the sinner and sent His Son to die for our sin.

Paul murdered Christians...Christ's body.

When we thing we are better than another, than we do not understand the Gospel. AND if we do not understand the Gospel, we are not saved by the Gospel message.
---kathr4453 on 4/10/12


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MarkV, you have to forgive that man for what he did. You have to or else the Father will not forgive you.
---CraigA on 4/10/12


//your typical self righteous person who believes God CATEGORIZES sin into categories of what God will and can forgive, and what is impossible for God to forgive. He believes he is somewhat a righteous GOOD person that God wants to save// -- posted by Kathr

EXACTLY!! And that same bitterness and self-righteousness can be seen in Christan as well. That is why they are so offended at the thought of God wanting to save everyone. They dont want everyone to be saved because they themselves are unwilling to forgive.

You two must repent of this bitterness and hatred for your own sakes. Only then will you be able to see the true gospel. Only then will you be able to see the LOVE of the truth!
---LindaH on 4/10/12


Christan, what do think purposed means?
It means God knew and planned the flood. He knew people would not repent. He knew to go to Noah because he knew Noah's heart. He knew Noah would obey.
God did not force Noah to do anything. He simply asked him because God already knew Noah's answer would be yes.
God is not a fortune teller He is the author and finisher of everything. He knows all, sees all, and has plans for each and every person on the planet.
God did not nor has he ever created sin!
---ginger on 4/10/12


Oh MarkV, how judgemental you are. I'm so glad YOU are not God. Man, can you all see MarkV sitting on the throne?

Jesus died for even the most perverse sinner. I'll bet MarkV sizes up anyone he preaches the Gospel to...Woops, MarkV doesn't preach the Gospel.

Wghat does John 3:17 say, Jesus did not come into the world to CONDEMN the world but that the world through Him would be saved.

MarkV is your typical self righteous person who believes God CATEGORIZES sin into categories of what God will and can forgive, and what is impossible for God to forgive. He believes he is somewhat a righteous GOOD person that God wants to save.

MarkV is not saved, and has NEVER seen himself as the depraved pervert that he is.
---kathr4453 on 4/10/12


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Kathr, in order to oppose Leej, you said,

"PERHAPS this is where the confusion comes in. Well I have to first be sick to WANT HEALING!"

You are confused. You do need healing. Hear the word of the Lord,
"who Himself (Jesus) bore our sins in His own body on the Tree, that we having died to sins, might live for righteousness - by whose strips (Christ sacrifice) you were healed. For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls"
His sacrifice on the Cross has healed us, His elect, we were like sheep going astray until the death of Christ healed us (His elect) so that we could return from our lost condition to our Overseer (Christ Jesus).
---Mark_V. on 4/10/12


//I pray for the capture of those evil man, and for justice to be done.//

Would you pray for their salvation?
---michael_e on 4/10/12


Rod4him, I'm sorry I disappoint you and the first you heard say what I did. My heart does not bleed for those pedophiles who are seating at home contempating how they are going to sexually abuse another child, torture them and kill them. I sure don't wish they will go to heaven. Do you? We are to love our neighbor, but can we love a person who rapes and murders your child? Do you have that love? I don't. I'm been honest. The Bible speaks of sins that are worse then others. I have prayed for the return of six children from the Bay Area for over 20 years, Amber and Nicky from Fairfield. I pray for the capture of those evil man, and for justice to be done. So they will never again kill another child. If that makes me wrong, I will answer to God.
---Mark_V. on 4/10/12


Moderator permit-Family you know one thing I really do learn alot I owe the Lord gratefull,becuz,even with Chemo duh! :) God can open my mind,my heart.bro.Mark & also,bro.Eloy and others like bro.willie C. & aka,Cluny many brothers 'n Christ I have respect. I don't always know how to debate or discuss but,I am carefull not to judge.christiaNet a great learning tool! They don't tell me nothing against being on here no more. God bless all!
---ELENA on 4/10/12


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Craig, give me a break with you dumb logic. I have never molested children or killed anyone. How dare you compare me, a child of God to the wicked. Some kind of spirit is convicting you that molesters, murderers should be in heaven gives evidence that it is not the Holy Spirit speaking to you. These people rejected Christ and destroyed many lifes, and you want to give them a free pass with your free will. Give Hitler a free pass, and while you are at it, throw in satan. And you call me a liar. I wish that none of those man had done what they did. Get your priorities right then we can talk.
---Mark_V. on 4/10/12


//Because Jesus did not die to save the wicked man who...My heart does not hurt one bit for them.//

Interesting...I've never heard anybody in Christendom say that, and that is a long time.
Maybe it is that attitude I feel at church.
How does one ever know if their "sins" are too much for Christ?
---Rod4Him on 4/10/12


"God even KNEW there would be a FLOOD..."

KNEW? God became a fortune teller and looked into the future? Or did He purposed and brought the flood?

"God is not a man, that He should lie, neither the son of man, that He should repent: hath He said, and shall He not do it? or hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good?" Numbers 23:19

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it." Isaiah 46:10,11

The word is not "KNEW" but "PURPOSED".
---christan on 4/10/12


Calvin believed we have free will but is conditioned by what is in our hearts. For the unregenerate, the heart is deceitfully wicked and thus really cannot make a decision to be saved in Christ.
---lee1538 on 4/9/12

Well PERHAPS Calvin was wrong in his philosophy.

BUT is faith the SAME as a decision? AWHHH. So was your salvation based on a DECISION or faith in another? One cannot DECIDE to heal themselves.

I've decided to heal myself today..Hummm. Does't work for me.

I'm believing because I cannot heal myself, and believe IN someone else who can heal me. I'm putting my faith in the one who can.

PERHAPS this is where the confusion comes in. Well I have to first be sick to WANT HEALING!
---kathr4453 on 4/10/12


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Accountability. If you know that you have a deceitfully wicked heart, then get it fixed. This false doctrine that sinners cannot help themselves is antiTruth and antiReality. We each choose whom we will serve, God or sin, right or wrong. Do you think God will not hold you accountable for hurting his own children, for hurting us Christians whom belong to him? People seek everyday, some are seeking good and some evil, but each seeks: "Cast way from you all your transgressions, whereby you all have transgressed, and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why choose you all to die?" Ezk.18:31.
---Eloy on 4/10/12


Mark, so what youre telling me is that because YOU harbor hatred and unforgiveness towards those who have committed certain sins against you or someone you are very close to, then Jesus couldnt have died for them?

Can a man decide whom God should show mercy to?

Their sins are no worse than your own or my own. Dont be so quick to deal out death and judgment.

Remember the words of Jesus Christ:

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
---CraigA on 4/10/12


//How can God who KNOWS beginning from end not know of furture events??

Yes, God does know the future as He ordains it for His purpose and for His glory.

But He is not caught unaware of what man will do and then have His plans thrawed. And that is my point.

Calvin believed we have free will but is conditioned by what is in our hearts. For the unregenerate, the heart is deceitfully wicked and thus really cannot make a decision to be saved in Christ.
---lee1538 on 4/9/12


---That a person can come to Christ out of his own free will, his own works.---MarkV

That is not at all what she said! Why do you insist of lying about what we say? How can you claim to follow and believe in Jesus Christ and yet repeatedly lie?

Noone has said man comes to God by his own good works. Calling upon Jesus Christ to save you is not a work!!
---CraigA on 4/9/12


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Sorry Kathryn but your view holds that God is not in control of the affairs of mankind and has to account for unforeseen events.

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
---lee1538 on 4/9/12

How can God who KNOWS beginning from end not know of furture events??

God even KNEW there would be a FLOOD that covered the WHOLE EARTH before it happened. Doesn't sound like any unseen events here.

Did Noah preach for 125 years?? Why bother if God already KNEW no one would repent?

Your intelligent reasoning is getting in the way of FAITH. Again, MORE PHILOSOPHY to deal with here.
---kathr4453 on 4/9/12


Craig - Did Christ die for all of humanity or just for the Elect?

Mr 10:45 For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

Mr 14:24 And he said to them, This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.

"for many" or should we say 'for all' in order for you and Kathyrn to get the scripture to fit your desired belief that God calls everyone?
---lee1538 on 4/9/12


Craig, you ask me,

My heart is open enough to feel the Spirits grief when I consider that Jesus didnt die for every man. Why isnt yours?"

I will tell you why. Because Jesus did not die to save the wicked man who molest, torture and kill children. Or those who suck the brains out of an unborn baby with a vacuum cleaner, and those who step on His Word without fear of God. No, Jesus didn't die for those. My heart does not hurt one bit for them. You want them in heaven but they are not going there. Hell is waiting for them. I don't know what spirit is making you feel the way you feel.
---Mark_V. on 4/9/12


"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
---lee1538 on 4/9/12

But God listen to Moses, he was about to wipe out the nation of Israelite and be rejected.. (Exodus 32)Read Exodus 33:12-23 which is the scripture verse Paul quotes from!
---Ruben on 4/9/12


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We know man does not have a horses tail.So we preach no man can come to God with a horses tail.It's imposssible for man to come to God with a horses tail, ecause men don't have horses tails.

Therefore God in mercy plays pin the tail on the donkey ( blindfolded that is) because man is incapable of pinning a tail on himself.All men who have a donkey's tail pinned on him are the Elect.

It's just the way it is. So Just deal with it!
---kathr4453 on 4/9/12


//I know. MarkkV believes he's here to correct everyone, (a delusion) and Lee1538 believes himself here to call people names.

There has always been a conflict between those that are studied and those who are willfully ignorant.

Sorry Kathryn but your view holds that God is not in control of the affairs of mankind and has to account for unforeseen events.

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
---lee1538 on 4/9/12


---Craig don't pull your hair, open your heart---MarkV

My heart is open enough to feel the Spirits grief when I consider that Jesus didnt die for every man. Why isnt yours?

2 Cor 5:14,15
"For the love of Christ constraineth us, because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again"

I dont know how much more clear God has to be here and in 1 John 2:2. The only way around it is to change the meanings of words because they disagree with what you believe.
---CraigA on 4/9/12


".You have given NO SCRIPTURE to back up your philosophy either...Just TALK TALK TALK!"

LOL! The pot calling the kettle black. And where's your Scriptures that supports your 'free-will' doctrine????? Talk about TALK TALK TALK TALK TALK TALK!

We're still waiting but definitely not holding our breath. TALK TALK TALK!
---christan on 4/9/12


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Kathr, it is not what you preach, you preach free will. That a person can come to Christ out of his own free will, his own works. And the Bible speaks against you. Yes, we preach Christ crucified with power only to those who are called by God. To the other it is foolishness. Here is your fault, you read the Word of God and don't understand it. You read it over and over and still don't understand it. Why? "Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day" (Deut. 29:4). If God does not give you a heart to perceive the Truth you will never understand it. You cannot out of your own free will, change your own heart. God has to change it.
---Mark_V. on 4/9/12


Hello,Family,Kathr4436,bro.Mark,Lee and everyone,just happy my friends you are alive 'n well,today the Lord just gave me a joy 'n my soul! Had been such pain,God hears my prayers! My faith still no matter what! I believe he knows & pray bro.Mark somehow God lead me to a cancer prayer group like yours there,even if once a month. Love to you all.Lifting up the saviour!
---ELENA on 4/9/12


"But we preach Christ crucified, but to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness"
But "to those who are called both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God"
---Mark_V. on 4/9/12


Yes this is EXACTLY what WE preach, CHRIST CRUCIFIED! Yes Christ Crucified IS the Power of God unto Salvation.

There is NO power in preaching ELECTION!
---kathr4453 on 4/9/12


Kathr, only God has free will and bestows His power only on those He calls. Craig don't pull your hair, open your heart. It is written,
"For the message of the Cross is foolishness "to whom? to those those who are perishing, (descendants of Adam) but to us, (believers) who are been saved it it the power of God" And what about the rest? "I will distroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent" Here is how Paul finishes,
"But we preach Christ crucified, but to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness"
But "to those who are called both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God"
---Mark_V. on 4/9/12


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Good morning Elena. I know. MarkkV believes he's here to correct everyone, (a delusion) and Lee1538 believes himself here to call people names. Believing themselves to be superior to woman, fighting with them tooth and nail to CORRECT THEM etc. WOW.

I'm glad they are showing their true selves for all to see just how the Body of Christ DOES NOT act.

And all these NEW terms not found in scripture??? It's Satan who has used these terms to appeal to the intellect of man's pride., just like he promised Eve in the garden.

FAITH in God's word has nothing to do with INTELLECT OR REASON. That's what the unsaved don't understand.

Use REASON or INTELLECT to explain Moses parting the sea. Can't be done...Even by BARNES.
---kathr4453 on 4/9/12


Philosophy, Gnosticism and vain deceit was introduced in the garden of Eden. Satan used REASON to appeal to Eve's intellect and PRIDE. It ended in death.

Satan's offspring have been with us ever since reasoning away the Word of God, by introducing new terms and definitions. Using their so called intelligence to explain away the FLOOD that covered the whole earth and more. All they need is one foot in the door to cause you to doubt one thing, and then you go on to douby this and that. DON'T be one of those SILLY WOMEN who let these deceivers into your home, ever LEARNING and NEVER able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

These deceivers ARE NOT God's TRUE ELECT, but imposters, called tares. GOATS who will eat anything.
---kathr4453 on 4/9/12


Hello,Family, love goes out to you all! Sister kathr4453 this is ELENA! Wow!You are able to keep up & answer & get your points across! Ha! Ha! I laugh too,one bro. say you a housewife??-nothing wrong with that! the bible says when a man finds a wife he finds a good thing.Pro.18:22 I think he meant like other meaning.You are my friend, too! well,they talk about "free will" at church one time & yes,it's not mention like that in the bible.Where do all these terms come from..Like soveirgn,free will,etc.? New bibles?? So,many new bibles out!
---ELENA on 4/9/12


MarkV, I'm nor is anyone else here interested in YOUR PHILOSOPHY. And that is exactly what you are pushing here. Nowhere in scripture is anything of what you said in scripture.You have given NO SCRIPTURE to back up your philosophy either...Just TALK TALK TALK!
What ever you want to call free will is your business.

You said choice is not the same as free will. OK THEN.

People you have been given by God FREE CHOICE to Chose salvation through Jesus Christ or not choose.

So what ever markv's PHILOSOPHY is on free will, doesn't matter anyway, since salvation is of CHOICE and not will.

SO, I'm now CORRECTING MARKV!

Let's ALL Correct MarkV, since he needs correction.


---kathr4453 on 4/8/12


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---Man does have a choice, but that does not mean his will is free. ---MarkV


Oh for goodness sake! That is what we've been saying for 2 years now Mark! All this arguing and judging people as not being born again etc etc.. and now you agree with us!???

The man can make a choice based on what he has heard. (I just wanna pull my hair out!!!)
Faith cometh by hearing.
---CraigA on 4/8/12


Kathr, again, I'm here to correct you. Making a choice does not indicate a person has free will. Making a choice is making a choice. The Bible no where teaches that the will of man is free. Because it is not. God does not mention free will because He knows fallen man's will is in bondage to sin, the reason He gave His Son so that we could be set free from the bondage and bring us to salvation. Man does have a choice, but that does not mean his will is free. It fact, the reason the will chooses is because it has a motive, it is not free. If it was, the will would not have a motive or a desire to choose. If the will was free, it would not know what to choose.
God is perfect and makes no mistakes, that is why He does not mention free will.
---Mark_V. on 4/8/12


Yes, it says "choose life". Choose the life of God's love which has us living in "rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:29) Do not choose a distant theoretical Jesus whom you must argue, but choose the Jesus who in us (Galatians 2:20, Galatians 4:19) has us obeying how our Father rules us in His peace > "And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body, and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15) Do not stay in our human free will witch has us making choices in separation from God, because separation from God is sin, but choose to obey how God "works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (in Philippians 2:13)
---willie_c: on 4/8/12


yes Kathryn we all have free will but it is bounded by the sovereignty of God.

While Jesus was destined to go to the Cross, His free will did not want to go to the Cross, He prayed that the cup may pass from Him, but that was the will of God the Father.

Yes, Kathryn you should be very thankful you do not have free will in everything because then God could not make of you what you could become.
---lee1538 on 4/8/12


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"even Jesus had FREE WILL, yet chose to do the will of the Father."

Is this how you understand the will of the Father for His Son? Don't you understand that Christ coming to die was predestined by the Father? And that the Son was never going to disobey His Father? Or do you not even understand and believe Isaiah 53? But I forget, you hate the doctrine of predestination.

Your comment shows your ignorance of what obedience is to the Father, which the man made of dust was never going to fulfill, to begin with. And yes, God is the only ONE who has the free-will to do as He pleases. That's the meaning of free-will.
---christan on 4/8/12


Let's see. Lee1538 loves to read books dissing God's word on the Flood. Lee1538 would rather listen to BARNES than God. Barnes explaines it AWAY, where the Holy Spirit uses spripture to teach scripture valadating the fact that the FLOOD covered the whole earth.

And christan even Jesus had FREE WILL, yet chose to do the will of the Father.. LEAVING US AN EXAPMLE OF THAT FACT.

There are hundres of thousands of scriptures showing man's free will to chose to obey or disobey.

If you truly were God ELECT, why do you now need man to teach you??
---kathr4453 on 4/8/12


FREE WILL:

Deuteronomy 11: 26Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse,

27A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:

28And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.
---kathr4453 on 4/8/12


If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: ---Joshua 24:15

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, ---Deuteronomy 30:19-20

The Scriptures I have given as well as John 3:16 (and several others) suggests that everyone has the ability to respond to God, and has the freedom of will in the fact that they have the ability to choose to follow God or not to follow God. If the greatest commandment is to love then it is necessary for that person to be free to act it out for love by definition cannot be forced for it will fail to be love.
---kathr4453 on 4/8/12


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Nowhere is the term "free will" found in the Bible. But there are scriptures from which people understand we have "free will".

And there are scriptures through which ones believe there is "sovereign grace", meaning God in His love so gracious is almighty . . . in absolute control of all people and things, to bring about His loving purpose.

It says (Isaiah 55:11) that God's word "shall accomplish" all that God pleases . . . that He Himself means by His word, not just what we can think! (c:

And Paul says God is our Potter, in Romans 9:21. Each "vessel" has His purpose of His love's grace acting in His almighty power unstoppable and unfailing.
---willie_c: on 4/8/12


"But MADE UP terms not found in scripture???" If God cannot be understood with HIS WORD enlightend by the Holy Spirit, then it's NOT GOD!"

Does this include such declarations like, "God has given man the free-will to choose Him" for salvation? I ask because, I still cannot find such "promises from God" when He created man in the Scriptures.
---christan on 4/7/12


// God cannot be understood with HIS WORD enlightend by the Holy Spirit, then it's NOT GOD! Yes, God made scripture easy to understand even for the unlearned.

Ya right! If you ask any 3 Christians regarding the interpretation of most Bible verses you will probably get 5 different answers.

Sorry but I prefer those in the pulpit not only to be full of God's Spirit but also trained at a recognized seminary.

Strongs concordance may be useful but "since Strong's Concordance identifies the original words in Hebrew and Greek, Strong's numbers are sometimes misinterpreted by those without adequate training to change the Bible from its accurate meaning simply by taking the words out of cultural context."
---lee1538 on 4/7/12


Leej to PRESUME I'm a housewife is OH SO arrogant of you. I'm LAUGHING!

Yes and we know Joseph Smith had a book called the Book of Mormon too outlining his terms and definitions explaining his beliefs.

We need no such books, THOSE who have the Holy Spirit, and a STRONGS concordance giving true definition to words originally in Hebrew and or Greek later since the english language is so limited.

But MADE UP terms not found in scripture??? If God cannot be understood with HIS WORD enlightend by the Holy Spirit, then it's NOT GOD! Yes, God made scripture easy to understand even for the unlearned. JUST ASK PETER!
All I hear you seem to read are books on the SDA. You're obsessed with them. I'm obsessed with the Lord.
---kathr4453 on 4/7/12


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kathr4453 //No such tern is used in Scripture.

Neither is sovereign mercy
sovereign faith
sovereign salvation
sovereign country fried steak
----
But are we forbidden to use these terms to facilitate our understanding of the Bible and its doctrine?

The term sovereign grace may be found in many Bible dictionaries and in books dealing with theology literature. But these may be things that really are far beyond you capability to comprehend being only a housewife.
---lee1538 on 4/7/12


No such tern is used in Scripture.

Neither is sovereign mercy
sovereign faith
sovereign salvation
sovereign country fried steak


God is Sovereign. Meaning God is God.

The Sovereignty of God means there is no one higher than God.

But to embellish all sorts of meanings to God's sovereignty that twist scripture is from hell.

God's WORD and promises are SOVEREIGN. No one has any power to overpower His promises. You'll find those promises in His Word. Satan has no power to steal them away.

---kathr4453 on 4/7/12


A NonBiblical term, possibly manufactured by the disobedient whom refuse the commandment to do God's works.
---Eloy on 4/7/12


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