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Is Daniel Chapter 7 End-Times

Does the Daniel 7 prophecy one that has been fulfilled or may we expect it to be also a prophecy of the end of times?

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 ---lee1538 on 4/8/12
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Jerry, when someone like you tries to push Saturday Sabbath on others, and claim God commanded Saturday as the Sabbath, and you cannot back up what you say, then I know, not only do you want to judge others of other denominations for not doing what you are doing, but insist that God commanded it, you find youself in deep trouble. Jesus is the Sabbath. He is our rest under the New Covenant, and you want us to go back under the law you are not only completely wrong, but you show evidence of not having the Spirit of the Law. Now I don't mind what day you want to worship God, I worship Him daily. You want to pick one day, that is great. Do it. I won't judge you for that.
---Mark_V. on 4/29/12


If I did not indeed grow up in an SDA home, I wonder why I know and remember so much about SDA's
---Rob on 4/28/12
As far as I can tell, you may have been adopted by a kind SDA family, and you are angry at your parents for giving you up for adoption, and just being rebelious against the SDA family who took you in as their own. This is a good posibility, because my wife and I are both SDA, Thus or children are SDA. You were raised in a SDA home, which means that the parents were SDA and you were not.

So rather than rant and rave against SDA doctrines which you do not accept or understand, why don't we talk about your childhood issues, maybe I can help you.
---francis on 4/29/12


MarkV: You are the most difficult person to agree with I've ever experienced. I agree with you that the Bible does not command the keeping of Saturday or Sunday. Do you agree so far? It does command the keeping of the seventh-day Sabbath. Do you agree so far? Sabbath is the day between the sixth-day Crucifixion and the first-day Resurrection. Still with me? Go research which day of the week that was 2000 years ago, and get back to me.


---jerry6593 on 4/29/12


Mark V. you are 100% correct in how Jerry twist words.

Look through these blogs and see how many times I have encouraged others to look at the Official SDA website and see what they believe and teach. I also encouraged others to examine the FALSE PROPECIES of Ellen G. White.

As a teenager and when I was still in school, I was actually told I would attend SDA Churches (which was a living nightmare and HELL) or find another place to live.

Both Jerry and Francis will lie (breaking one of the 10 Commandments) and say I did not grow up in an SDA home.

If I did not indded grow up in an SDA home, I wonder why I know and remember so much about SDA's
---Rob on 4/28/12


Jerry, I did not say,
"You made the correct statement that the Bible doesn't use the name Saturday for the Sabbath. It does"
I said that God did not say the seventh day was a Saturday. So please do not twist my words. You said, God commanded it, I said He never did command Saturday. Until you proof, God commanded the Seventh day to be Saturday, you might as well give it up.
You must think you can just say something and somehow it will appear in the Bible. Wishful thinking.
---Mark_V. on 4/28/12




MarkV: I was not being "avasive" (whatever that is) about your question. There was no question. You made the correct statement that the Bible doesn't use the name Saturday for the Sabbath. It does, however state that the Sabbath is the day between the Crucifixion and the Resurrection. Don't you agree? Now all you have to do is research what day of the week that is today. Fair enough?


---jerry6593 on 4/27/12


Jerry, you are the one who is been avasive by not answering my question.
I have answered your question. There is no passage where God commanded man that the Sabbath was suppose to be Saturday. Here is what you asked:

"Then why don't YOU obey "His clear Command""

God never commanded man that the seventh day was Saturday. That is one reason why I don't obey that passage, the other reason is because Jesus Christ is my Sabbath and my rest. I can give you those passages.

So, why are you avoiding my question? Are you trying to be avasive? Show the passages.
---Mark_V. on 4/26/12


MarkV: You continue to avoid answering my questions, preferring to take irrelevant detours. Is it that you are unable to stay focused on the subject, or are you purposely being evasive because you see the fallacy of your position?


---jerry6593 on 4/24/12


Scott 1, you are right. since the time of the reformation, many new denomination arose. In fact that was the problem the Roman Catholics were worried about. They knew that once the word of God was given to all people, they would see the wrong things taught by the Church. At one time they burned the Bibles. Only the leaders were allowed to have them. Once the Truth came out, the reformers wanted to reform the Church. They were opposed and many man died for the cause of the Truth. Now many branches are out there, each with its own interpretations. Many have the same essentials of the Christian faith, but many others went back to salvation by works (free will) that was taught in the RCC, instead of Justification by faith in Christ alone.
---Mark_V. on 4/24/12


//Like most cults, Adventism is not only confusing but also contradictory in its doctrinal beliefs.//
Lee

So are many regular christian protestant churchs.
---Scott1 on 4/23/12




Jerry, if you want to speak about Astronomers or commentators do a new blog. I will answer there. If you want to speak about God and His word, you have the right to do so. You still have not provided one passage from God's own words. If He said it, and you believe it, you should be able to provide the passages.
---Mark_V. on 4/23/12


you know it doesn't matter what day is the sabath. This topic has been run in the ground. I just think God set aside one day to rest and worship.
---shira4368 on 4/23/12


MarkV: More of the same. Let's see, you believe that we are to keep the seventh-day Sabbath, but you don't know what day of the week it is - only that it is not Saturday. Is that about right? Do you believe that Christ was crucified on Friday? Do you believe that He rose from the dead on (Easter) Sunday?

Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments, and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Did you know that astronomers can track the day of the week back over 2000 years because of the positions of heavenly bodies? You are the only person on the planet who refuses to believe that Saturday is the seventh day of the week.


---jerry6593 on 4/23/12


Jerry, there is no ranting here. I'm not the one having a problem. You are. You have not come out with any proof that God commanded us the seventh Day is Saturday. You want me to go to reference books. They don't say God said the seventh day was Saturday. Maybe the ones from the SDA's, I don't know, but I cannot find it in Scripture. God is pretty clear when He talks. He doesn't make mistakes. Man always do, just like you and I do. This is a problem with you, not me. I keep the Sabbath. In fact Christ is my Sabbath my rest. He is not your Sabbath, Saturday is.
---Mark_V. on 4/22/12


--lee1538 on 4/21/12
Take care leej. I hope that you are not sick or anything like that. I do hope that all is well with you and your family.

See you in a few weeks
---francis on 4/22/12


I reckon its ongoing. You can see in verse 28 a possible explanation as to why there is a more detail in Revelation.

As an aside, it makes me angry when I read theologians discussing what John was thinking and what sources he was plaigarising (not their choice of word, its what they infer) when he wrote Revelation. What he was thinking was completely irrelevant, he was simply remembering and he did a superb job.
---jamea4353 on 4/22/12


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Francis - I will be gone from Christianet for the next few weeks so if you want to continue this subject, please do so with others.
---lee1538 on 4/21/12


MarkV: Nice rant, but irrelevant. I'll try again. And please notice that I didn't specify the day of the week. Only that YOU should obey the Ten Commandments that YOU agree are still in force.

"Jesus Christ is God. He wrote the Ten Commandments. He makes no mistakes."

Then why don't YOU obey His clear Command and example by keeping the seventh-day Sabbath? You can find which day of the week is the seventh by looking in any reference book.

Remember, the water doesn't become clearer by muddying it.


---jerry6593 on 4/22/12


Rhonda, you said,
" to believe The Prince of Peace is ruling Satan's world ..."
God is Ruler of heaven and earth. The devil rules only the system of darkness in the world. God rules Satan and permits him to continue to rule the darkness. God is ultimate Ruler of all things, even the actions of the devil. When Satan showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, he said to Him "all these things I will give You if you will fall down and worship me" Jesus told him,'"Away with you, Satan for it is written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve" Who is satan serving? God Almighty. And what did satan do? He left as he was told.
---Mark_V. on 4/22/12


//The SDA fundamental beliefs are much like the Bible as there can be different interpretations and they also allude to the belief that the final authority is the Bible.
---lee1538 on 4/21/12
As a SDA I tell you it is not so at all
---francis on 4/21/12

And there are literally hundreds of former Adventists that differ with you.

Like most cults, Adventism is not only confusing but also contradictory in its doctrinal beliefs. A simply examination of the many Ex-Adventists websites will show that.
---lee1538 on 4/21/12


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Daniel 7 is fulfilled prophecy? REALLY? WOW so Christ returned? Christ is RULING as KING of KINGS from Jerusalem? no kidding!!!

how could anyone be duped into belief Daniel 7 is fulfilled prophecy? to believe The Prince of Peace is ruling Satan's world ...you do UNDERSTAND todays world is filled with immorality, lust, wars, violence and many other evils - correct? NOT A WORLD OF PEACE

Daniel 7:27 ...His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him

THE WORLD is NOT worshiping or obeying Christ today easy to comprehend seeing professing "christianity" doesn't even obey Christ today
---Rhonda on 4/21/12


The SDA fundamental beliefs are much like the Bible as there can be different interpretations and they also allude to the belief that the final authority is the Bible.
---lee1538 on 4/21/12
As a SDA I tell you it is not so at all
---francis on 4/21/12


//So why not look at the 27 fundermental beliefs which we keep refering you to, instead of babes in the faith?

The 27 fundermental belief is the official beliefs of the SDA regardless of what any individual believes.
===
The SDA fundamental beliefs are much like the Bible as there can be different interpretations and they also allude to the belief that the final authority is the Bible.
---lee1538 on 4/21/12


Jerry, again you accuse me of not keeping the Sabbath.
You say,
"Then why don't YOU obey "His clear Command" and example by keeping the seventh-day Sabbath? You can find which day of the week is the seventh by looking in any reference book."

God never said the seventh day was Saturday. Reference books are from man. You said here (His clear command). God also never said the seventh day was Sunday under the New Testament. He did say He was our Sabbath, our rest. So man decided to observe Sunday as our Sabbath. Check the references. From the time I answered you, you have been crying about Saturday. And to this day, you have shown nothing coming from God where He said Saturday.
---Mark_V. on 4/21/12


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Because only the truth can be my corrector.
---lee1538 on 4/20/12

So why not look at the 27 fundermental beliefs which we keep refering you to, instead of babes in the faith?

The 27 fundermental belief is the official beliefs of the SDA regardless of what any individual believes.

You do know that there are and will always be SDA who are babes in the faith. At the rate that this church is growning, there will always be new believers.

That is why one of the SDA doctrines is spiritual growth, allowing each to grow in knowledge at his or her own pace

I do not expect a babe in the faith to know as much as a mature SDA would you?
---francis on 4/21/12


MarkV: It is difficult to follow your ramblings. First, my beliefs are not dependant on what another person believes (e.g. Francis), but rather on what the Word of God says. Second, I've never seen any post by Francis that would indicate his disbelief in the divinity of Jesus. Have you? I don't know him, but I would assume that he, like me, believes the 27 fundamental doctrines clearly stated on the official SDA website.

"Jesus Christ is God. He wrote the Ten Commandments. He makes no mistakes."

Then why don't YOU obey His clear Command and example by keeping the seventh-day Sabbath? You can find which day of the week is the seventh by looking in any reference book.


---jerry6593 on 4/21/12


Jerry, I just read on another blog that francis also believes in the eternal begotten Son of God. If you both do, why are you both still SDA's? Why not just Christians?
And again you fail to present one passage where God said on what day He started creation. Or a passage where God said that the seventh day had to be Saturday. How do you reconcile what you argue about?
---Mark_V. on 4/21/12


//So why do you keep repeating the same things from which you have been correccted?

Because only the truth can be my corrector.

And like I stated, not all SDAs believe in the same thing. Some believe that 2 Timothy 3:16 speaks only of the Scripture, not the writings of olde Ellen White given to her by her 'accompanying angel' who in all probably was a demon.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

So it is you that needs correction if you do not believe that.
---lee1538 on 4/20/12


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jerry, I will clear the air. If you believe in the Eternal Son of God as you say, and francis doesn't and he too is an SDA, why are you still an SDA? If you know the Truth, wouldn't you run from a lie? That is what I call maturity. Knowing the Truth and running away from a lie.
Ok, I apologize for thinking you were an SDA like him following their doctrines.
Answer to questions,
Jesus Christ is God. He wrote the Ten Commandments. He makes no mistakes. And no, He did not create people for the sole purpose of torturing them. He did chose some for eternal life and not the others. I am a Christian and do not follow any denomination that preaches free will. I go to any one who teaches the Sovereignty of God. That God is Ruler of all things.
---Mark_V. on 4/20/12


Well as you know you have been correct many times, on what you say about SDA beliefs, because what you think SDA believe and what they actually believe is not the same.

Yes, somewhat true .
---lee1538 on 4/20/12

So why do you keep repeating the same things from which you have been correccted?

If you said I was a female and I said I was a male why would you keep insisting I was a female when I told you i was a male.

Can you not see thatthis is the mental pattern of one who is obsessed?
---francis on 4/20/12


//Well as you know you have been correct many times, on what you say about SDA beliefs, because what you think SDA believe and what they actually believe is not the same.

Yes, somewhat true as we find that not all Adventists believe alike. Some even do not like olde Ellen White and some while believing they should follow the 10 commandments, will also hold that their righteousness is in Christ, not of themselves,that one does not have to earn ones salvation via obedience to law.

I think that as we study, and pray that the Holy Spirit gives us more understanding of what the Scripture is teaching, so in changing our minds on some issues merely reflects spiritual maturity.
---lee1538 on 4/20/12


I used to think I really knew the truth regarding most everything and sometimes viewed others as being idiots because they would not see things as I did.
.
---lee1538 on 4/19/12

Well as you know you have been correct many times, on what you say about SDA beliefs, because what you think SDA believe and what they actually believe is not the same.

And even when you are coprrected by SDA, you keep posting the same lies.

That is a sign of unhealthy obsession. You have even gone as far ad advocating violence against some SDA.

That is why I believe that your SDA family members are afraid of you.
---francis on 4/20/12


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//francis, I am a idiot for believing that you were a Christain.

I used to think I really knew the truth regarding most everything and sometimes viewed others as being idiots because they would not see things as I did.

But then after trying hard to understand how and why others viewed things, I no longer regarded others as being idiots.

However, in some cases, I have come to the conclusion that all too often others have been misled and are basing their beliefs not on the Bible but on how it is interpreted by their leadership.

The basis for Adventism is the interpretaton of the Bible by Ellen G. White. But that is not the more rounded view of those that are more skilled in exegetics of the Bible.
---lee1538 on 4/19/12


francis, I am a idiot for believing that you were a Christain.
---Mark_V. on 4/19/12
Only idiots take other peoples word without checking it out

---lee1538 on 4/19/12
When you show me a law in the bible which God says is for israel only, Maybe then we can consider it. But as i showed yu grace is for more than just salvation only


---lee1538 on 4/19/12
The word being in parenthesis means that is was supplied by the translaters, and was not in the original.

The verse should read:
Daniel 12:11 And from the time the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The word sacrifice was added based on an interpretation
---francis on 4/20/12


MarkV: "So clear the air, do you or don't you believe that Jesus Christ is the Eternal Begotten Son of God? Are you an SDA? If not I apologize."

Yes, I most surely do, and yes, I most surely am. Now apologize and admit your lies!

Now it's time for you to come clean. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Author of the Ten Commandments? Do you think that He meant them, or that they were flawed in any way? Do you believe that God created some people for the sole purpose of torturing them? What denomination are you?


---jerry6593 on 4/20/12


Lee: You do not hold the Old Testament to be relevant to Christians. If you believed that all scripture is given by God, the words "Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy" would have meaning for you. What makes you think that these words need "filtering through Ellen White"? They were written by God Himself, but that doesn't seem to be a high enough authority for you.

You believe in the ordination of women as elders in the church - a clear violation of 1 Tim 3:2.

Thus, your claim to be Orthodox is FALSE!

---jerry6593 on 4/20/12


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Mark_V, if you really want to know more about the SDA, subscribe to Proclamation Magazine. It is free.

They have a website on the Internet containing their magazine articles. They cover just about everything you will ever want to know including the current trend among Adventists to establish 'synagogues' and observe a modified version of the OT Jewish feasts.

Adventists are really into religion much like the law promoting Sabbath keeping Pharisees of Jesus' day. But I can see God is and will save some of them for His love towards His creation is very great and He pursues those whom He will save with His love.
---lee1538 on 4/19/12


francis, I am a idiot for believing that you were a Christain. Sorry, but I never studied the teachings of E. White. Good thing, I would be not only an idiot, (ignorant of SDA doctrines) but lost under the law.
Under the New Covenant, idiots are saved by God. They are not saved by their wisdom. Merits have nothing whatsoever to do with salvation. It is all by Grace. I want to remain an idiot concerning SDA doctrines, for they lead to nothing. They teach Jesus was a created angel, the same as Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons and Islam.
---Mark_V. on 4/19/12


francis//Seems to me that based on the word of God, that grace is also given to the believer to obey the law, in addition to eternal life
---
Does that also pertain to laws found only in the Old Covenant given only to the Jewish nation? Or does it simply pertain to moral law and the ability to fulfill whatever law by love of neighbor?

If disobeying any law is a sin, then you certainly sin by lighting a fire in your home on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:3.

You are running out of corners to hide in Francis.
---lee1538 on 4/19/12


Francis//Why is sacrifice in parenthesis? i.e. in the Geneva Bible footnote for Daniel 12,11.
---
I would say that in view of the context, the sacrifice at the Jerusalem Temple is in view.

12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away and the abominable desolation set up, there shall be a thousand, two hundred and ninety days.

When the man of sin, the anti-Christ appears, the great tribulation is to last 3 and a half years. But that did not occur during the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

Some expositors however, believe that the 1290 days spoken of in Daniel refers to the nearly 6 years the Jews rebelled against Antiochus. There is no extrapolation of days to years.
---lee1538 on 4/19/12


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francis, I do not have to go on line to read cultic views, all I have to do is read what you write, and know what they teach. Lee is correct, there is many different view among SDA's just like all other denominations. But the core or the foundation is by Ellen White. The same view you give. When I argue against you, I argue on what you believe is true, for I don't care what the SDA's really believe, I just didn't know that part of their faith, that Jesus was a created angel of God. I did read "The kindom of the Cults" by Walter Martin and edited by Hank Hanegraaff. I learned a lot from there. Enough to bring me to the conclusion that SDA's are far off under the Law.
---Mark_V. on 4/19/12


So I guess we have left the blog topic to talk about SDA?

If we want to talk about SDA that is just fine. Let us all go online and read the book 27 fundermental beliefs, then we can accurately and intellegently talk about SDA and what they teach and believe
---francis on 4/19/12


---lee1538 on 4/19/12
REMEMBER THESE POSTS
Seems to me that based on the word of God, that grace is also given to the believer to obey the law, in addition to eternal life
---francis on 2/9/12

Corinthians 9:8 grace: that ye may abound to every ..good work:

Ephesians 3:8 grace: that I should preach
Acts 14:26 grace: for the work which they fulfilled.

Romans 12:6 gifts according to the grace

Titus 2:11 grace: that.. we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world,

So grace is given for more than just our eternal salvation. It is also given to us to do the will of God
---francis on 3/17/12
---francis on 4/19/12


Mark_V //Why not be 100% sure and see what SDA teach about Jesus in the online book FREE called 27 fundermental beleifs?

Francis is correct in that you need be careful as to what Adventists believe. However, like any other non-othodox denomination, the definition of terms can be different*. Also some things they may believe would at first reading appear to be contradictory.

*grace to the SDA is merely a provision acquired from theHoly Spirit that enables one to obey the law and thus merit eternal salvation. It is NOT simply unmerited favor as orthrodox denominations would believe. Thus one is ultimately saved by works of the law.
---lee1538 on 4/19/12


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Daniel 12:11 And from the time [that] the {l} daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there {m} shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
---lee1538 on 4/19/12

Why is sacrifice in parenthesis?
---francis on 4/19/12


I always thought that SDA's believed in the Eternal Son of God, and not a created angel.
---Mark_V. on 4/19/12

That is why you are an IDIOT

YOU THOUGH who told youthat yuo could THINK?

Why not be 100% sure and see what SDA teach about Jesus in the online book FREE called 27 fundermental beleifs?

I told you about this books days ago, why have you not looked into it? Do you enjoy being ignorant?
---francis on 4/19/12


Francis - A footnote in the Geneva Bible may be of interest to you regarding Daniel 12 and the ceasation of the sacrifices.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time [that] the {l} daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there {m} shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

(l) From the time that Christ by his sacrifice will take away the sacrifices and ceremonies of the Law.
(m) Signifying that the time will be long until Christ's second coming, and yet the children of God ought not to be discouraged, even though it is deferred.

This would place the event at the endtimes with the anti-christ on the scene, not some crazy idea that something happened in heaven in 1844.
---lee1538 on 4/19/12


Jerry, if you believe the same doctrines that francis believes then there is no retraction. If you don't follow the doctrines of the SDA's then I will retract. I believe since you started you have been preaching the same doctrines but never heard someone from the SDA's claim Jesus was not the Eternal Son of God, and so Divine. I always thought that SDA's believed in the Eternal Son of God, and not a created angel. So clear the air, do you or don't you believe that Jesus Christ is the Eternal Begotten Son of God? Are you an SDA? If not I apologize.
---Mark_V. on 4/19/12


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MarkV: "francis/Jerry, "I was shocked to learn you do not believe in the Divine nature of Christ."

Me too! I am shocked that you would put such an obvious lie into print. Please have the integrity to post my words to that effect. Otherwise, I will expect a retraction from you.

For the record, I believe that Jesus is the Creator God of Genesis and the Author of the Ten Commandments. I believe that He instituted the seventh-day Sabbath (that's Saturday) for all mankind, that He taught the keeping of it in the lesson of the manna, that He kept it while incarnate, and that He expects us to keep it now and in heaven. You don't!



---jerry6593 on 4/19/12


"I was shocked to learn you do not believe in the Divine nature of Christ. ---Mark_V. on 4/18/12

Do you remember why I said you were an IDIOT?

It is because you believe what people tell you without checking it out

Stop being an idiot, Check out what SDA believe about christ in a book called 27 fundermental beliefs. It is available online free
---francis on 4/18/12


francis/Jerry, "I was shocked to learn you do not believe in the Divine nature of Christ. I always thought SDA's were a Christian religion with their weird believes. Concerning the written Law, it is very much in effect today, it's condemning all those who are not in Christ. Those under the written letter of the Law need a Redeemer. And since both of you teach people to be under the Law, it suggest you are under the Law. And neither one of you ever speak of the Spirit of the Law. If all SDA's believe what you do, the whole religion is in fake in great need of a miracle by God.
"But to him who does not work "but believes in Him" who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.." (Rom. 4:5).
---Mark_V. on 4/18/12


Lee: You do not hold the Old Testament to be relevant to Christians. If you believed that all scripture is given by God, the words "Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy" would have meaning for you. What makes you think that these words need "filtering through Ellen White"? They were written by God Himself, but that doesn't seem to be a high enough authority for you.

You believe in the ordination of women as elders in the church - a clear violation of 1 Tim 3:2.



---jerry6593 on 4/18/12


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/./Lee: "You cannot name a single doctrine of the Christian faith I do not believe in."

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [OT, including Exo 20:8-11] is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, ...:

Totally agree but while all scripture is given by God and is useful, it is those SDA unique doctrines that are not found within that faith once for all delivered to the saints that has little or no support in scripture.

Your problem is that any doctrinal belief the SDA may hold, must first be filtered through Ellen White and it is her interpretation, not that of the church, that is paramount.
---lee1538 on 4/17/12


//You do not belive that God created the world in six days and rested on the 7th.

I do believe God created the world in 6 periods of unknown duration and on the 7th day, ceased in His creation.

There are far too many problems with the view that all the creation days were of 24 hour duration.

Unfortunately there are those who are willfully ignorant that want to interpret all the Bible literally, but in doing so, they are not wise.
---lee1538 on 4/17/12


Can you mention any other doctrine I do not believe in? I have plenty of books on doctrine.
---lee1538 on 4/16/12

You do not belive that God created the world in six days and rested on the 7th

You do not believe that keeping the sabbath is a moral law

all these your denominations the orthodox presbyterian church hold to be true and the bible hold them also

( you have already stated you disagreement with OPC of sunday sabbath)

You do not believe that the bible alone contains the doctrines of God, you look to history
---francis on 4/17/12


Lee: "You cannot name a single doctrine of the Christian faith I do not believe in."

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [OT, including Exo 20:8-11] is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, ...:

1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, [How can a woman elder be a husband?]

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, [Your evolutionary beliefs require death before Adam's sin.]

Joh 11:11,14 ...Lazarus sleepeth, ... Lazarus is dead. [You believe that he was temporarily a conscious spook.]

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. [You believe that He is Lord of Sunday].
---jerry6593 on 4/17/12


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If I may jump in here. The phrase, "baptism by immersion" is a phrase used to distinguish the difference between the two basic modes of baptism:
One is, the person is immersed completely underneath the water,
and the other is, the person is only lightly sprinkled with water.
---Eloy on 4/16/12


francis //Then read what the orthodox presbyterian church teaches in sacraments
---
Sacraments are holy signs and seals of the covenant of grace,(Romans 4:11)
immediately instituted by God,(Mt. 28:19) to represent Christ, and his benefits,
and to confirm our interest in him (Romans 6,3-4) as also, to put a visible difference between those that belong unto the church, and the rest of the world,(Ex. 12:48)and solemnly to engage them to the service of God in Christ, according
to his Word.

You need to make your point.
---lee1538 on 4/16/12


What on earth is baptism by emersion? Never heard of it.
---lee1538 on 4/16/12

Then read what the orthodox presbyterian church teaches in sacraments
---francis on 4/16/12


Francis //You do not believe in baptism by emersion.

What on earth is baptism by emersion? Never heard of it.

While I do not recall once mentioning my position on baptism, I do believe that either sprinkling, immersion, or other forms have been recognized by the church as valid.

And that is what most churches recognize today.

The major debate on baptism is whether infants or believers should be baptized.

Can you mention any other doctrine I do not believe in? I have plenty of books on doctrine.
---lee1538 on 4/16/12


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You cannot name a single doctrine of the Christian faith I do not believe in. If you think otherwise, post New Testament bcv.
---lee1538 on 4/15/12



Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.

You do not believe in baptism by emersion

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

You do not believe in righteousness by faith
---francis on 4/16/12


Jerry //FYI, the word infallible is not found in the SDA 27 Fundamentals.

Infallible: 1. not erring: incapable of making a mistake 2.incapable of failing: certain not to fail 3.unerring in doctrine: incapable of being mistaken in matters of doctrine and dogma.

You are still missing the boat on this issue.

There is no way you cannot believe in Ellen White as an infallible guide as Article #18 clearly states that Ellen was 'the Lord's messenger', "her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth" the same as the Bible itself. If you believe the Bible is the infallible guide, then you have to believe olde Ellen White also is an infallible guide.
---lee1538 on 4/15/12


jerry //You are still left with the problem that religious liberalism (New Theology to some) is, by definition, incompatible with Orthodoxy.

You cannot name a single doctrine of the Christian faith I do not believe in. If you think otherwise, post New Testament bcv.

Perhaps you are unaware of what constitutes orthodoxy in doctrine?

Orthodox: following traditional doctrine: following the established or traditional rules of a political or religious belief, a philosophy, or a way of life

BTW Jerry, how do you feel about the movement within Adventism to observe the OT feasts with modifications and in establishing synagogues = a drastic departure from orthodoxy?
---lee1538 on 4/15/12


Lee: You are still left with the problem that religious liberalism (New Theology to some) is, by definition, incompatible with Orthodoxy.

FYI, the word "infallible" is not found in the SDA 27 Fundamentals. Thought you'd like to know.


---jerry6593 on 4/15/12


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Jerry //but the only thing we hold to be infallible is the entire Bible.

While you claim to have only the Bible as your infallible guide, it is the interpretation of Ellen White that you are stuck with.

And if you are a true Adventist, you have to hold to the 27 articles of the SDA Fundamental Beliefs, one being the infalliblity of Ellen G. White and her writings being also on the same shelf as the Bible.
---lee1538 on 4/14/12


//It sounds like you have become a religious liberal. It is understandable that that would not be compatible with Orthodoxy.

One major problem we have today is that too many Christians simply are trained to follow and never question the beliefs (and practices) of their denomination.

Then when they are challenged, they find themselves out in the middle of a spiritual tarpit, having been lead very gradually into a system of erroneous doctrine.
---lee1538 on 4/14/12


Lee: "I do not have membership in any denomination at present."

Was that your choice or theirs? It sounds like you have become a religious liberal. It is understandable that that would not be compatible with Orthodoxy.

"BUT while I could disagree with whatever church I may belong to, YOU do that [not] have that freedom as your church holds the view they are infallible"

Not true at all! We do have profound disagreements (there are liberals and conservatives - I am the latter), but the only thing we hold to be infallible is the entire Bible.


---jerry6593 on 4/14/12


Jerry, my views may or may not reflect what the Orthdox Presbyterian church holds as doctrinal beliefs as I do not have membership in any denomination at present.

There are a couple of issues that I find myself in disagreement with the Orthodox Presbyterian church. One being ordination of woman (I believe they scipture permits women deacons), and cessation of spiritual gifts (they kicked out a minister that prayed in tongues but kept it to himself) and there are a couple of issues with the WCF.

BUT while I could disagree with whatever church I may belong to, YOU do that have that freedom as your church holds the view they are infallible when it comes to doctrine, and maybe even practice.
---lee1538 on 4/13/12


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Jerry, the last days Peter was talking refers to the present era of redemptive history from the first Coming of Christ (Heb. 1:2: 1 Peter 1:20: 1 John 2:18) to His return. See "My Spirit" (1:2,5,8). From the indwelling of the Spirit (at Pentacost) to the time of His Second Coming are the last days that Peter was talking about in (Acts 2:16) that the prophet Joel talked about in (Joel 2). On the "Day' is the Day of the Lord. That perticular day.
We receive the Word of God, through the Bible, through godly men who preach it, through godly men God gifted to provide us with His Word which comes through commentaries. The Word of God gets through to as many as the Spirit moves to bring it to each one.
---Mark_V. on 4/13/12


Lee: It is your and your pseudo-Orthodox Presbyterians that do not speak according to the Word. I gave you Scripture to show that Daniel's prophecy was for the time of the end, but you reply only with your commentaries and the usual string of hate-filled insults. Grow up, will you? If you can show from Scripture that the SDA position is wrong and your commentary-based religion is right, then by all means bring it on! Otherwise go back to sleep.


---jerry6593 on 4/13/12


Jerry //Then burn your commentaries!

When your pastor gets in the pulpit and starts to preach, he or she is basically a commentary. Perhaps you would do well to burn your commentary as well.

Yes, you hate the commentaries written by those the Lord has called into the ministry of teaching since nearly all of them point out the fallacies of your religion.

Sorry Jerry but it is Adventism that has no light in it as they clearly do not speak according to His word.
---lee1538 on 4/12/12


Lee: "The commentaries seems to hold that the last days begin with Pentecost."

Then burn your commentaries!

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.


---jerry6593 on 4/12/12


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Jerry - in regard to Daniel 8,17, does the verse refer to the very end of time when Jesus will come again or simply what the Bible declares to be the last days in which we are now living?

Remember Joel's prophecy as stated by Peter?

Acts 2:16f But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: And in the LAST DAYS it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, ...

One must be careful as to how ones interprets prophecy since wrong interpretation has made fools of many including William Miller the mentor of Ellen White.

The commentaries seems to hold that the last days begin with Pentecost.
---lee1538 on 4/11/12


Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him

not all of it is fulfilled
This part has not yet cme to pass. The people of God do not own the whole earth
---francis on 4/11/12


Lee: Your question was answered by the Angel Gabriel when he explained the vision to Daniel.

Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the TIME OF THE END shall be the vision.


---jerry6593 on 4/11/12


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