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Prepared For Hell

Romans 9:22 speaks of God in order to make known His wrath and power endured "with patience vessels prepared for destruction". Is the implication here that God prepares some to be vessels of destruction?

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 ---lee1538 on 4/12/12
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//Augustine was attracted to the philosophy of Neo-platonism. He blended these beliefs with his later Gnostic Christian teachings

Usually these kind of things are almost impossible to verify. One could waste much time and effort in trying to disprove such accusations.

Often those with a deep hatred for the Church will point to some unverifiable source or something written by someone that has been discredited for whatever reason.

In any case, the positions held by both Augustine and Calvin are based upon scripture, not the views of heretical groups.

You have no credentials as a student of antiquity or of the scripture. So why should we believe anything you have to post?
---lee1538 on 4/18/12


kathr, Augustine also repented of his Manicheism, too, as well as of his libertine life before his conversion and baptism.

Augustine's life and thought before his conversion and regeneration are quite well known, kathr.

Please tell us what gnostic doctrines he taught afterwards. Be specific.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/18/12


christan, since man never ate from the tree of LIFE to begin with, then no spiritual death of our spirit occured.

The tree of Life was ETERNAL life, that meant that if in sin they ate of the tree, they would live PHYSICALLY forever. Their BODY soul and spirit would have live forever in a state of sin.
---kathr4453 on 4/18/12


We also know that ther was communication between God and Adam/Eve after they sinned. He asked them a question BEFORE He covered themin animal skins.
---kathr4453 on 4/18/12


Christan,
God said I will put MY SPIRIT in you. Gods Spirit in you is totally different than mans spirit in man. God did not rejuvenate mans spirit called RE-generation. What makes us CHILDREN of God is for the first time EVER , Gods Spirit , that is, the Spirit of the Life of Christ has been put within us. The NEW CREATURE is something so new and different, far above and beyond anything Adam & Eve could have ever been, even if they NEVER sinned. They were NEVER spiritual beings or Begotten Sons through Jesus Christ. .
To be Born Again, is to be Born ANEW, Born of the Spirit of the Life of Christ. Adam 1 was crucified with Christ, not REGENERATED!
---kathr4453 on 4/18/12




"Spiritual death" simply means the lost of communication/fellowship with God, who's Spirit. When Adam and Eve disobeyed, the curse of death was double whammy.

DEATH 1. "for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return", ie ALL born into this world will die, it's 100% guaranteed - including the Christian.

DEATH 2. then came "spiritual death" - "So He drove out the man, and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." - the man is now pronounced "dead in sins and trespasses", including his posterity.

That's why regeneration is important in Christianity.
---christan on 4/18/12


Next, Augustine was attracted to the philosophy of Neoplatonism. He blended these beliefs with his later Gnostic Christian teachings. His teachings were in turn passed on to John Calvin in his extensive study of Augustine's writings. It is very easy to follow the trail of John Calvin's theology from the pagan religion of Mani in Babylonia to his writings in France and Geneva.

In 1945 an Egyptian peasant found 12 codices containing more than 50 Coptic Gnostic writings near Naj'Hammadi, Egypt. It has been determined that these codices were copied in the 4th century in the monasteries of the region. The evidence is clear that the Gnostics had a major influence in writing the Alexandrian manuscripts of the Egyptian region.
---kathr4453 on 4/18/12


Well Lee1538, Sorry that your HERO was and had been written about and documented for hundreds of years.

And that conclusion is not mine. Gnostics actually believed it was OK for sexual immorality. Paul has also addressed this in scripture.

Augustine didn't START it, just got sucked into that false doctrine.

Paul addresses Gnostics in the NT concerning sexual immorality.

Didn't BARNES ever teach you that?

Maybe you need to do more studying on that subject.

And yes, Augustines doctrines were most influencial in the RCC, where we see CONTINUED sexual immorality.
---kathr4453 on 4/18/12


//We know Augustine was IMMORAL in his sexual escapades, and he could be the very reason there is so much sexual Sin in the RCC.

Statements of this nature truly tells us you really need help as there is something wrong with you with that thing above your shoulders.

You are simply a decisive person desiring only to cause trouble among Christians. Truly an evil spirit dwells within you.

Tit 3:10-11 As for a person who stirs up division, after warning her once and then twice, have nothing more to do with her, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful, she is self-condemned.,
---lee1538 on 4/17/12


For nine years, Augustine was a Manichean, a devotee of of the teachings of Mani, founder of a Persian moral cult. Like the Gnostics of the first century, Mani and his followers were dualistic, teaching that the flesh was sinful and impure, while the spirit was light and life. As a Manichean, this teaching was a comfort to Augustine, as it let him blame his continued sexual sin on his lower fleshy nature, but still be moral by emphasizing the separateness of flesh and spirit.

Augustines years with the Manicheans left its impact on the Church.
---kathr4453 on 4/17/12




So Lee1538, anytime you mention Augustine, teh RCC get all up in arms. WHY because Augustine was RCC and so was CAlvin...and many teachings still are.

We know Augustine was IMMORAL in his sexual escapades, and he could be the very reason there is so much sexual Sin in the RCC.

I understand markv may have been sexually molested while in the RCC. Kind of an oxi moron going on here???!!!
---kathr4453 on 4/17/12


\\Sin nature is spread and passed down through the father. Since Jesus had not a literal, biological father, the sin nature was not passed down to Him. And since He had a human mother, he was fully human but without original sin.\\
---Mark_V. on 4/16/12

That comes from philosophy, not from scripture. Neither of the two scriptures you quoted says anything remotely close to the comments you made.

There is not one scripture which ways that spiritual death is passed physically from one to his or her child.

The physical body is procreated. We all came form Adam, from dust, whether male or female. You're trying to say that Mary did not come from dust? If Christ was not in, Adam, then He could not redeem all the rest of us.
---James_L on 4/17/12


\\Lee1538, Calvin learned from Augustine, a KNOWN Gnostic among otherthings\\

kathr, please give the Gnostic doctrines taught by Augustine, with, if possible, appropriate references to his works.

Bet you can't!

Christ is risen.
---Cluny on 4/17/12


Lee1538, Calvin learned from Augustine, a KNOWN Gnostic among otherthings, just on that alone YES, I have the Authority within me, Christ In me that is to KNOW they preach another Gospel.

I'm not as ignorant of these facts as you want to believe.

The ONLY forfathers I have any faith and respect for are:
Abraham
Isaac
Jacob

And then the desciples who were Jesus Apostles and those God called like Paul to write ALL WE NEED to understand our salvation.

And anything I neod to Know I ASK GOD, IN FAITH..James 1, and He answers me. I've never lacked for any answers. I get it streight from the horses mouth.

I've told you where I stand, so BACK OFF and STOP trying to force me to eat from the horses back end!!
---kathr4453 on 4/17/12


Leej, (Romans 9:22) and the rest of the passages Paul is giving an anology of the Potter mentioned in (Isa. 64:6-8: Jer. 18:3-16). Paul argues that it is as irrational, and far more arrogant, for men to question God's choice of certain sinners for salvation, as for a piece of pottery to question the purposes of the Potter. These verses provide three reasons God permitted the presence and contamitions
1. to demonstrate His wrath.
2. to make His power known.
3. to put the riches of His glorious mercy on display. No one is treated unfairly. Some receive justice they earned and deserve, others graciously receive mercy.
---Mark_V. on 4/17/12


Kathr4453 - you do not read my posts.

While I may not agree with everything Calvin believed, practically all of his theology - understanding of doctrine, merely reflects that of his predecessors. So if you damn Calvin, you must do so to all the other pillars of God's church. And who you is little Kathryn to have any credentials to do that?

As to usernames, I used the original one that CN gave me with the intention of having chat & penpal dialogues, but after CN declared that username invalid, I used leej until I got a new one from CN which is lee1538.

I have never used anyone else handle. I am not a dishonest person.

yes, the devil's minions like to accuse Christians of misdeeds and you echo them.
---lee1538 on 4/16/12


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Ruben, you saying you're not included in this passage quoted by Paul in Romans 3? Then you had better take issue with Paul, and not me. I'm merely reading what's written in the context of Romans 3 and it's simply summed up by Paul in verse 23, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" and you want us to belief you're not included?

Then this verse in the same chapter excludes you too, "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." if I'm to understand.

And you have the audacity to accuse one about misreading?
---christan on 4/16/12


You know Lee1538, You have changed over the past few years. Isn't that when you turned from the Truth to embrace Calvinism? Well it appears when you did that you also embraced their AWFUL way you speak, and contend for the faith.


BAD company corrupts good morals, and boy has your's been corrupted.

But then again, You were thrown off of here years ago for being nasty to SDA's weren't you. That is why you have so many different names you blogged under..correct?
---kathr4453 on 4/16/12


"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." See? Without exceptions. NONE's the keyword.
---christan on 4/16/12

Christian,

As you do to all scripture, you are misreading this one. Paul is quote from Psalm 14. In Luke 1 :5-6 he writes " And they were both righteous before God , walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. "
---Ruben on 4/16/12


Leej, I told you, you were next. This vengence she carries is against all who speak for God having mercy on whom He wills to have mercy on. Her salvation is so corrupt, she doesn't know what she says from one point to another. But have no fear of her, we are not called to go after evil or demons, but when we are attack, we do have the armor of God. Only those who bleed for the rights of man's works, get angry. It happens everyday. The minute we say, God chose us, they get on the wagon and support each other. It shows enmity against us, but it is really against God.
---Mark_V. on 4/16/12


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kathr4453//And we also see that through Israel, Jesus Came, bringing salvation to ALL, including Ishmaels and Esaus descendents.

So those descendants of Ishmael and Esau who are Islamic have been saved by Jesus?

Islams believe that Jesus was a mere prophet who was put to death on the Cross but did not arise from the dead.

Do you believe in universalism which holds there is salvation outside of belief in Christ?

Or that eventually everyone will be saved?
---lee1538 on 4/16/12


Kathr4453//You are GUILTY of all the things you accuse the SDA. BUT the greatest difference between you and the SDA is THEY DO NOT LIE or bear false witness.

Suppose you tell me for my benefit what specific lies or false witness I have borne against you or the SDAs.

What I have consistently done is to question the SDA unique doctrines from a historical and biblical standpoint. Many of their views I have found cannot be supported by either.

As we can all see, you really have a problem getting along with Christians on this forum. What you phew is really hatred for anyone that happens to disagree with you and you consistently label just about everyone things there are not. 1 John 2:9

Your ugly sins are obvious!
---lee1538 on 4/16/12


"No but I do denounce anyone who makes up bold face lies."

Are you condemning yourself? Or maybe referring to your own blogs as "bold face lies"? Hmmm... which is which but the answer is truly simple, isn't it?

"I do not believe man can save himself"

Yet you have the 'free-will' to call on the Lord - which according to the Scriptures is solely (100%) the work of God that the sinner is able to belief in His Son. Even a reprobate like Pharaoh can say "I have sinned this time: the LORD is righteous, and I and my people are wicked." Exodus 9:27 - does that mean he's a saved soul? Maybe he's with Moses in Paradise?
---christan on 4/16/12


And they, like Kathryn, will be quick to denounce anyone that does not believe they can save themselves as being a Calvinist pig.

---lee1538 on 4/15/12

No but I do denounce anyone who makes up bold face lies.

I do not believe man can save himself. In order for man to save himself, he would have to be a spotless sinless lamb of God to do so. I cannot shed my blood to save myself.

No lee1538, no one called you or anyone else a calvinist pig. I said you were a hypocrite.

You are GUILTY of all the things you accuse the SDA. BUT the greatest difference between you and the SDA is THEY DO NOT LIE or bear false witness.

They are a better man than you charlie brown!
---kathr4453 on 4/16/12


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Doctrine of the immortal soul is proven false "54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." I Cor 15:54
---weatherbill on 4/16/12


---lee1538 on 4/15/12

sorry lee1538, But I see nowhere Paul/Peter or even Jesus recommends the Institutes of Calvin.

We are sanctified throught WORD of God, not the philosophy of Calvin.

As a matter of fact we are WARNED not to be SPOILED through philosophy and vein DECEIPT, but we are Complete in Christ. HE is our head, and all truth flow down from the Head, which is Christ,to His Body, Christ alone is made unto us Wisdom and Knowledge of Truth.

We also have an anointing of the Holy Spirit.

If you've chosen to seer your conscience off from God that's your decision.
---kathr4453 on 4/16/12


"Jesus particularly singled out the Pharisees as most evil!" 1stCliff

And guess what, the spirit of the Pharisees is truly well and alive in you. You sure like to draw a line between the Pharisees and the rest of Israel and the world, don't you?

Scriptures is explicit about mankind and not particularly the Pharisees. When Paul wrote Romans 3, it was very clear there were no exceptions to mankind, all have fallen.

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." See? Without exceptions. NONE's the keyword.
---christan on 4/16/12


James L, God tells us, sin entered the world through Adam, not Eve, though she sinned first. Sin did not enter the world through her but through Adam. (Rom. 5:12) "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world.." The concept behind this is called Federal Headship. This means that a person (a father) represents his descendants see (Heb. 7:9,10). Sin nature is spread and passed down through the father. Since Jesus had not a literal, biological father, the sin nature was not passed down to Him. And since He had a human mother, he was fully human but without original sin. He received His divine nature through God the Holy Spirit. ".. for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit" (Matt.1:20).
---Mark_V. on 4/16/12


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//We are saved 'from' the power of the Law, the curse of the Law, eternal damnation, and a guilty conscience.

Very true, howbeit, the law continues to serve as a guide to our moral behavior and reveals to us the holiness of God.

If you sin, it is the Holy Spirit that will use His word to reveal to us, that certain behavior is not acceptable.
---lee1538 on 4/15/12


Chria9396,

Yes, the 'from' and 'to' are very important because (especially) the NT uses the word "saved" in many contexts, to describe many aspects of God's grace toward mankind.


We are saved 'from' the power of the Law, the curse of the Law, eternal damnation, and a guilty conscience.

In the present sense, we are saved 'to' eternal life, righteousness, and a living hope of the future.

In the future sense, we are saved 'to' resurrection, rewards, inheritance, and an eternity with Christ.

Good thoughts, Chria. If more would understand the broader meaning of the word 'saved' in the NT, many of the arguments within the Body would disappear
---James_L on 4/15/12


\\James L, WOW\\
---Mark_V. on 4/15/12

Wy should you be amazed, and say NOW you know what I believe? This is the same issue that we debated over a year ago. And as I recall, several others noted how your posts were thoroughly deficient of scripture citations

Here is a BIG challenge for you. Please provide the scriptures which say:

that Jesus had a body that was any different from the body that you and I have.

that a baby is born condemned to hell because of the failings of Adam

that this supposedly condemned baby has any way to eternal life other than faith in Christ.

BTW, Protestant rhetoric and philosophy doesn't equal scripture, so save your comments and provide the scriptures, please
---James_L on 4/15/12


//As for election, the very thought of individuals being elected by God for salvation (which Christ also declared and Paul taught) seems to bring forth hate and anger toward God's Sovereignty to do as He pleases.

And they, like Kathryn, will be quick to denounce anyone that does not believe they can save themselves as being a Calvinist pig.

I bet it really rails her that most Biblically oriented denominations hold much the same views as Calvin and even recommend reading his Institutes - something she will not do as she is determined to be willfully ignorant of the Bibles teachings.
---lee1538 on 4/15/12


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Christian, There were no "regular Jews" just as there are no regular Christians.
There were Pharisees (most numerous) Sadducees,Zealots, Herodians Essenes etc..
Jesus particularly singled out the Pharisees as most evil!
---1st_cliff on 4/15/12


Nana, you guys go to great extend to strip Christ of His holiness. How far will you go before you fee a conviction from the Spirit? Have you no fear of God?
Jesus Christ was of the Holy Spirit. Children been born of not of the Holy Spirit of two parents who have a sinful nature. There is a big difference been born of two sinful parents. God the Holy Spirit is not sinful. You are contradictin your own RCC believes for the sake of argument. And yes, I know you say you are not a Catholic.
---Mark_V. on 4/15/12


Yes. it is only springtime and the vipers are crawling out of their holes already. We gotta stop them!
---John.usa on 4/15/12


Wow, summer's not here yet and all the brood of vipers are crawling out of the holes. How interesting.

1stCliff, the account in John 8 was not only about the Pharisees (who were Jews by the way) because the regular Jews were there too and everywhere in the Scriptures. Or have you forgotten it was also the regular Jews who condemned Christ to death at Calvary and the prophets of old in the OT too.

As for election, the very thought of individuals being elected by God for salvation (which Christ also declared and Paul taught) seems to bring forth hate and anger toward God's Sovereignty to do as He pleases. How they twist and turn Scriptures isn't going to change God's will and purpose in election.
---christan on 4/15/12


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"What He got from Mary was her humanity, not her sin."
---Mark_V. on 4/15/12

That is all a baby gets from his parents.
Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
---Nana on 4/15/12


Christan, please go read Malachi. If you dare.
---CraigA on 4/14/12


James L
If I may interject,
"BUT, saved from/to what ???"

A few simple yet significant words. Saved ''FROM'' death ''TO'' life is what came to mind. ''From'', is past, ''to'' is present
or looking forward. Saved FROM death, wrath, sin, past, not our focus, rather the promise(s), pressing on towards the goal...
---Chria9396 on 4/14/12


We must listen carefully to Christian. When he says we are weasels and children of the devil,. then that's what we are. He knows!
---John.usa on 4/14/12


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Christian, Pretty slick there dude,Jesus was denouncing "Pharisees" (just like your saviour Paul) not Jews in general!
Christ is Saviour and final authority!
---1st_cliff on 4/15/12


James L, WOW, now I know why you answer the way you do, because now you are showing your real believes.
You believe that Jesus in His humanity was stain with sin. A sinful Atonement saving sinful people. I hope you know what Holy is.
"The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee, 'Wherefore also the Holy thing which is begotten' shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35). The Holy Thing was Jesus and Holy does not mean sinful.
"...for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 1:20). What He got from Mary was her humanity, not her sin.
---Mark_V. on 4/15/12


Who said Jesus was not the ELECT? Sorry! Jesus is teh Elect, and the CHURCH, HIS BODY are the Elect in the age of GRACE. There is no election apart from Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you, and so doth Marcus my son.
---kathr4453 on 4/15/12


In the OT Israel the WHOLE NATION was/is God's ELECT. There were no individual elect people. If that were so, we would have an Elect Asian, maybe an elect Greek etc. but scripture clearly says ISRAEL MINE ELECT.

The same goes for TODAY. The Elect are the CHURCH, the Body of Christ, those baptized into Christ AFTER one receives Jesus and is raised up together with Him a New Creature.

God CHOSE out of His OWN ELECT Israel 12 men to be His disciples/apostles. Not one GENTILE was in that 12. Even Paul was a Jew, one of God's elect to be made an apostle to the gentiles.

AND the 144,000 are again JEWS from the 12 tribes of Israel.

MarkV you are elect ONLY because you are now in Christ.
---kathr4453 on 4/15/12


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"GOD does love his creation. Everyone, and everything, since Adam and Eve." Sag

Let's see how you weasel your way out of this, "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

Jesus rebuked the Jews (whom you claimed God loves everyone), "I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. Ye do the deeds of your father. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do."

Seriously? God loves everyone? This is Satan's favorite line. So guess who's your father?
---christan on 4/14/12


SAG - 4/14/12 - God does love creation and everyone and everything, since Adam and Eve ?

ROMANS 9:12 not by works but him who calls she was told, The older will serve the younger. Just as it is written : Jacob I have Loved, but Esau I have hated.
---RICHARDC on 4/14/12


You indeed have a serious problem with God Almighty when you preach "that God loves everybody He created". Because according to the Scriptures, it's an outright lie.
---christan on 4/14/12

ONE name pops into my mind as I read this: S-A-T-A-N

Sounds like he has you yoked with him hand-in-hand.

GOD does love his creation. Everyone, and everything, since Adam and Eve.

Unfortunately, those two people, and many other people since then, have chosen to follow SIN and reject GOD. HE can't tolerate that in HIS kingdom, and such folks are on their way to destruction. Unless they REPENT and accept Jesus Christ.

GOD loves everyone in the world, but HE hates their SIN and rebellion.
---Sag on 4/14/12


shira4368,

\\Jesus wasn't born spiritually dead.\\

Neither was anyone else.


\\He was 100% God and 100% man.\\

What do you mean 'WAS' ??? Is He not alive today?
Are you suggesting that Jesus' physical body is divine, and that He has a human spirit? How do you come up with your 200% ???


\\The elect are the ones who choose to be born again.\\
---shira4368 on 4/14/12

That couldn't be further from the truth. The elect are the ones who were chosen to suffer, and thereby become joint-heirs with Christ.

Some are born again, who are not the elect. The elect are the GREAT in the Kingdom, while others in the Kingdom will be the LEAST
---James_L on 4/14/12


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Gordon,

\\it can be said that Adam's tainted blood was not a part of the Son of GOD's Flesh-and-Blood makeup.\\

It can be said, but it would be a lie. Mary was a physical descendant of Adam, right? Did He, or did He not die?

If Jesus' flesh was not tainted the same as Adam's, then Jesus would not have died. He died PHYSICALLY.


\\The Elect are saved from Sin....\\

I never said otherwise. BUT, that's not what it means to be elect.

If it's not too scary to think that you're wrong, compare the NT contexts where you see the words - elect, chosen, suffer, saved, inherit, glory
---James_L on 4/14/12


"I believe that GOD loves everything, and everybody, that HE created." Sag

Maybe you would like to tell Caine, those who perished in the great flood, Pharaoh, King Saul, Judas - that God loved them too and couldn't save them because they resisted His love. You're in deep deep deep deception if you believe God loves "everything, and everybody, that He created".

And if you are right, how is it the whole world isn't of the Christian faith? You indeed have a serious problem with God Almighty when you preach "that God loves everybody He created". Because according to the Scriptures, it's an outright lie.
---christan on 4/14/12


Funny, how does one know the will of God when they are "dead in sin and trespasses"? Or even believe in the Word of God when Jesus declaress "the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life"? Can the man that's made of dust even believe in God? I know Adam couldn't, because He disobeyed God. We who are born of Adam's loins, fallen, "dead in sins and trespasses" can do better than father Adam? Most definitely not!

Paul said, "But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God." You see, unless you're born of the Spirit by the will of God (John 1:13), this verse does not apply to you at all.
---christan on 4/14/12


James L, YAHUSHUA (JESUS) was not born by the seed or sperm of a man. He was born of Holy Seed. He was born of a Virgin, who was never touched by any man, sexually. The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary (Miryam) and impregnated her with a Holy Seed. By that, it can be said that Adam's tainted blood was not a part of the Son of GOD's Flesh-and-Blood makeup. The Elect are saved from Sin. They are saved from Damnation in Hell and ultimately from Eternal Damnation in the Lake of Fire. They are saved FOR the Glory of GOD, for HIS Name's Sake. To showcase HIS great Love and Mercy. They are saved to enjoy Eternal Life in Heaven with their GOD.
---Gordon on 4/14/12


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James L, I hoped you knew Christ was not born of man but of the Holy Spirit. Christ was not one of the elect, He is God.
(Eph 1:3-9) "Bless be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessings in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise and glory of His Grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved" for what?
"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sin, according to the riches of His Grace"
---Mark_V. on 4/14/12


james, Jesus wasn't born spiritually dead. He was 100% God and 100% man. Jesus brothers are 100% man....period. The subject of elect is very touchy. Jesus died for all mankind and not for just a few. All this subject is taken out of context by a few. The elect are the ones who choose to be born again.
---shira4368 on 4/14/12


Mark V...

\\we know what election means. Those chosen by God from the foundation of the world.\\

I agree. BUT, chosen for what???


\\some of the elect have not been saved yet\\

Again, I agree. BUT, saved from/to what ???

You should do a comparative study of the words - elect, salvation, inherit, glory - see them used interchangably and maybe begin to understand


\\when they are born they are born lost for they are descendants of Adam.\\

If Adam passed spiritual death to his physical descendants, then Christ was born spiritually dead.

Hebrews 2:17 "Therefore He had to be made like his brothers in ALL things."
---James_L on 4/13/12


In order to KNOW the Will of God one must first OBEY Romans 12:1-2.

Then after YOU personally have obeyed in this area, God will reveal His will TO YOU.

But if you want to take someone's second hand knowledge they themselves have learned second and third hand by the wisdom of men, that's at your own risk.

If you want to Learn, then ask God, not anyone here.

Advise is the cheapest thing in the world, it COSTS NOTHING. Anyone can give it.

If you really want truth, God's truth, it will cost you your whole surrendered life to Him.

God is not WILLING, in otherwords, it is not God's WILL that any should perish but His will is we come to the Knowledge of HIM. Not someone's doctrine.
---kath4453 on 4/13/12


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Sarah_M.on a public forum of this nature, there is nothing to prevent a non-believer or someone that belongs to a cult in promoting their erroneous beliefs.

What you really need to do is to get into a Bible believing church that preaches from the Word of God alone and not from extra Biblical sources (book of Mormons, writings of Ellen White, etc.)

Do you own homework, pray, find a mature believer to mentor you, and God will guide you into His truth.
---lee1538 on 4/13/12


Bro. Samuel, I have been here a short time trying to learn about God and when someone explains the will of God even providing passages, as a few have, it brings the worse in others who answer here. I thought that learning about God was the purpose of every believer. I believe some kind of evil force in trying to convince the believer not to know about the will of God. Maybe the reason is that they don't belong to the body of Christ, and that is why they don't show any love. What do you think?
---Sarah_M. on 4/13/12


Woe to any person who uses religion to put a veneer of sanctity over sin.

Those who love GOD will act in love towards GOD. Those who love all men as GOD has told us to do will act in love towards all humans on this earth.

When people do not act in love they show they are not following JESUS. Sin is hurting others and disobeying GOD.

Remnds be of the man who said my wife is married but I am not. As he cheated on his wife. When we cheat by being unloving we show we are not part of the bride of Christ.
---Samuel on 4/13/12


Psalm 1:1
Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.


WOE to Calvinists who do!.
---kathr4453 on 4/13/12


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God (unlike some men) does not delight in the death of the wicked. He delights in mercy. That is why He is longsuffering. A man may choose his way, but God will use that man for his greater purposes in whatever path the man chooses. That is why we cannot reply "Why doth He yet find fault"?

Proverbs 16:9---
In his heart a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps.

Anyone who glories in the death of the wicked is not living by the Spirit of Christ. The Lord has forbid it

Proverbs 24:17,18---
Do not gloat when your enemy falls, when he stumbles, do not let your heart rejoice, or the Lord will see and disapprove
and turn his wrath away from him.
---Blogger9680 on 4/13/12


Does a person who knows they are "the elect??" have to desguise themself to an old frail blind God to be given a blessing.

Do we not have to go back to these very scriptures in Genesis to SEE exactly what is being taught here.

Joseph, the first to go into Egypt was BLESSES by Pharoah of Egypt. And God BLESSED Egypt through Egypt blessing and honoring Joseph's God.

I will bless those who bless you and CURSE those who curse you. THIS is what Paul is talking about in Romans 9-11.

For Arrogant Gentiles not to become "ignorant" concerning God' dealings and PROMISES to Abraham that continued through to their bondage in Egypt 400 years later. MOSES delivered them out of BONDAGE FROM arrogant pharoah.
---kathr4453 on 4/13/12


This "400 long years of the longsuffering of God" when Israel was in Egypt and came under a cruel Pharoah who put Israel in Bondage. That was not the intent of the Original Pharoah. Every promise concerning ISRAEL or to Jacob was first given to Abraham. God did not make any NEW covenant promises to Jacob, nor established personal salvation of one's soul with Jacob. THAT was first established with Adam/Eve, Abel and FURTHER revealed to Abraham, and that those promise would be carried out through Abraham, Isaac and then Jacob.

It shows how totally daft one is on OT to teach Romans 9 is about personal election of depraved gentiles. If anything, if you want to apply it to salvation NO GENTILE WOULD BE SAVED, PERIOD!
---kathr4453 on 4/13/12


James L, we know what election means. Those chosen by God from the foundation of the world. The passage you gave means,
That some of the elect have not been saved yet, or even born yet, and when they are born they are born lost for they are descendants of Adam. So Paul says,

""Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the Elect, that they also may obtain the Salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal Glory"

He endure for the sake of the elect who have not been saved yet. So that they can also obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus that they obtained.
(2 Peter 3:9) is talking about the "us" the "any" those also are the elect, not willing that any should perish.
---Mark_V. on 4/13/12


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My question is if God prepared some men for destruction what is he "enduring" with them? He can take their life at any time. Yet He doesnt. You know why! Just as Francis has shown, He is longsuffering because He doesnt want anyone to perish.

Even those who have rejected the truth He is giving time to repent.
---CraigA on 4/13/12


The apostle refers here to the case of Pharaoh and the Egyptians, which he applies Jeremiah's parable of the potter, and, from them, to the then state of the Jews. Pharaoh and the Egyptians were vessels of wrath, persons deeply guilty before God, and by their obstinate refusal of his grace, and abuse of his goodness, they had fitted themselves for that destruction which the wrath, the vindictive justice of God, inflicted, after he had endured their obstinate rebellion with much long-suffering, which is a most absolute proof that the hardening of their hearts and their ultimate punishment were the consequences of their obstinate refusal of his grace and abuse of his goodness as the history in Exodus sufficiently shows.
---kathr4453 on 4/13/12


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

the answer is NO
---francis on 4/13/12


As soon as you figure out what it means to be elect, and what is the glory that the elect are chosen for, then you'll be ready for the answer to your question.

You will also understand what Paul meant when he wrote:

"Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the Elect, that they also may obtain the Salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal Glory."
---James_L on 4/13/12


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Lee1538, The above Verse does not mean that GOD literally creates a soul, a being, for the express and sole purpose of destroying it in Hell and in the Lake of Fire as a way to showcase HIS Wrath and Anger. The souls or beings make their choice, FIRST, to totally reject GOD, and then they make THEMSELVES well prepared, and GOD gives them their desire to be under HIS complete rejection by finally destroying them in Hell and eternally in the Lake of Fire. It all swings on each individual's choice of whether they want GOD and HIS Ways or NOT.
---Gordon on 4/13/12


Im curious where it says God picked out Jacob TO BE able to believe in Him. That God Chose Jacob and gave him the Holy spirit rebirthing him first in order for Jacob to believe in God to be saved.
MarkV your interpretation/philosophy is only yours and is totally WRONG. That is not what Paul is teaching in Romans 9. Paul is telling us GOD CHOSE Abraham Isaac & and then Jacob to be His Chosen people here on earth to represent Him and bring in Jesus Christ. It did not ACCURS or secure any of their salvations, as we see.
And we also see that through Israel, Jesus Came, bringing salvation to ALL, including Ishmaels and Esaus descendents.
Salvation is NOT by Birthright.
---kathr4453 on 4/13/12


Lee, Paul was following the guotes of the children Isaac and Esau, loving one over the other, that the purpose of God according to election might stand. To those who objected, "Is there unrighteousness with God? He then says, "You will say to me then, "why do you find fault?". The objection is: How can God blame anyone for sin and unbelief when He has sovereignly determined that persons destiny? Many here have the same question. He answers "O man, who are to to reply against God" He then gives the anology of the Potter making two kinds of vessels from the same lump. Paul argues it is as inrrational, and far more arrogant, for men to question God's choice of certain sinners for salvation.
---Mark_V. on 4/13/12


Lee, Yes. Why? "In order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory." However "If a man purge himself from [the old leaven of the Pharisees 1Cor 5:7 which is hypocrisy Luke 12:1], he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work." 2Ti 2:21 Therefore, although some are prepared for destruction, that destruction is not set in stone. Those willing to trust Him, exclusively, "are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation." 1Pe 1:5 For "The Lord knows those who are His." 2Ti 2:19
---josef on 4/12/12


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Kinda like an unwilling suicide bomber in Hell?
---atheist on 4/12/12


I believe that GOD loves everything, and everybody, that HE created.

Some of us chose to become followers of Jesus Christ. We'll follow Him back to be with GOD in heaven.

Vessels Prepared For Destruction refers to those folks who have chosen to reject GOD's values.

Since GOD is Holy, and cannot tolerate Sin or Impurity, those who have rejected GOD will be destroyed.

I'd mention some of those Sins or Impurities, but there isn't enough room in this short blog. Popular today, but very dis-pleasing to GOD. :<(
---Sag on 4/12/12


this is misleading - it shouldd read prepare for the 2nd death because as scriputre states, death and hell will be cast intot he lake of fire, whch is the second death and to redefien death to mean eternal life in hell is a dishonest stretch of the intellect. Ths heall doctrine has turned millions from Jesus because its immoral to torment someone forever. God would be breaking his own law, eye for eye, tooth fo tooth, life for life, and no one has forever tormetned anyon ehere on earth, so how they could reap such an immoral and unjust outcome is beyond belief. Repent! Stop keeping people from Christ with your doctrines!
---weatherbill on 4/12/12


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