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Sovereign Plan Of Salvation

Was God's sovereign plan of salvation determined before or after the fall of Adam and Eve?

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 ---lee1538 on 4/12/12
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While Christians are under grace and not under the law they still have an obligation to obey the law - true?

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

I think this is where individual convictions really come in as there are those who refrain from eating certain foods and desire to observe certain holy days = Romans 14.

Whatever is not of faith is sin. Romans 14:23.
---lee1538 on 4/20/12


kathr4453, good explaination of the flesh being anything associated with the old Adam.

christan: You offered your understanding on "those born of God".
But we see who is born of God in 1John5:1. "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God". Christians are born of God (it does not separate spirit and soul here).

You spoke of repentance, but it's NOT repentance when you do it OVER AND OVER AGAIN. You are stuck on the law and CONTINUAL repentance whenever you transgress it. This is unscriptural.

BUT, we see repentance is of "dead works" (Heb 6:1), which is righteousness through the law. This is what walking in the flesh is.
---Haz27 on 4/20/12


//christan is teaching gnosticism, and other gnostics are applauding him!
---kathr44453 on 4/20/12

Poor poor Christan!!! It looks like you are in her sights now.

Don't forget that Kathyrn has worked with an apologetic ministry and thus is as qualified as anyone with multiple degrees in theology to see that you are wrong in your theological views.

Who knows??? You may even have to eat her grits!!!!!! LOL
---lee1538 on 4/20/12


MarkV,
Sorry but in no way is CHristan right about anything that he puts in these blogs. If he were, I would agree with him. I have ageed with you on several issues. BUT, Christan does not even agree with the different definitions you put down. Look at what he wrote to Haz.
He cannot deny that God gave man a will of their own when he created them ,that is how God knew man would sin and also how we are able to gain salvation. We must put down our will and pick up God's.

And Kathr is very right about no such thing as man's soul being regenrated. Christ acutally comes to LIVE in us. That is HOW we are born again. God knowing does not mean that God chose.
---ginger on 4/20/12


christan: How do we attain righteousness? The choices are:
1: Righteousness by faith (Gal 5:5), or
2: Law of righteousness (Rom 9:31) aka law of sin and death.

We know by works of the law no one will be saved. This is not submitting to the righteousness of God (Rom 10:3).

To be under law you make yourself a transgressor/sinner Gal 2:18.
For what law says it says to those UNDER IT, Rom 3:19.

BUT Christians chose righteousness by faith instead. We are not under the law (1Tim 1:9, Gal 5:18, Rom 8:2). And where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION/sin.

Christians still do wrong sometimes, but this is not 'sin' as we cannot be judged/accused of transgressing the law. Our righteousness is in Christ instead.
---Haz27 on 4/20/12




Before he created the world.
---Eloy on 4/20/12


---"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin", obviously implying the dead spirit of the man which has been given life by the Spirit, which definitely excludes the flesh.

---
---christan on 4/20/12

The FLESH is anything associated with our old adam.

And to be clear here, Being Born of God in no way states God rebirthed our old adam. Our Old adam is CRUCIFIED with Christ, not rebirthed. It's the NEW MAN, the NEW CREATURE in Christ.

God never rebirthed the old man and then crucifies it.


Romans 6 clearly state the OLD MAN DIED with Christ.

christan is teaching gnosticism, and other gnostics are applauding him!
---kathr44453 on 4/20/12


The law was NOT MADE for Christians" Haz27

I agree with Haz27, the LAW was not made for Christians.

Even Israel had to DIE to the LAW to be married to another.

So correct, Christians are not under Law, but IN-LAWED to Christ, who is our life.

No matter what anyone says here, it will always be twisted around to say what someone nevr said.

Is the LAW made for YOU christan?
---kathr4453 on 4/20/12


ginger, Christan's correct. The word flesh has few meanings depending on the Context. The passage you gave,
"So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
This refers to those who are lost, with no Savior. They cannot please God. If they could out of their own will choose God, they would have something God would be please with.

You said, "Christan, this means that those who are doing their own will cannot please GOD.".

That is right. They don't have the Spirit of Christ to guide them and convict them of sin.
1. Flesh can mean lost.
2. flesh can also mean the physical body.
3. Flesh can mean "natural body"
4. Flesh can mean "in incorruption"
---Mark_V. on 4/20/12


"So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

Christan, this means that those who are doing their own will cannot please GOD.
Do you realize you are teaching gnosticism?
Seperation of physical flesh and mind? That is false.
Paul says to hold every thought captive.
What do you think this means?
Check your thoughts to make sure they are in line with God.
When properly applied, one will understand what Paul is talking about when he says "flesh". He is not talking about your physical flesh, he is talking about your will..your thoughts that can lead to actions, which can cause sin.
---ginger on 4/20/12




Very good response Christan to this issue that Christians are not incapable of sin.

What I pointed to Haz27 is the fact that we find in the testimony of all the saints of His church, that they struggled with sin and that has to be a good indication that Christians while in the flesh can sin.

Also the doctrine of sanctification and finally glorification, has to be discarded in the view held by Haz27.

Thank you very much!
---lee1538 on 4/20/12


"Are you denying scripture that says Christians are NOT under the law?" Haz27

No I do not. But it's the attitude that you advocate about the Christian that's not under the law that you claim that you do not sin anymore. Now is this what Scripture really says?

And please don't use 1 John 3:9, that's because it does not imply the flesh. It starts "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin", obviously implying the dead spirit of the man which has been given life by the Spirit, which definitely excludes the flesh.

Anyways, our conversation is over and please go your way thinking you cannot sin in the flesh anymore and no repentance is required from you to God.
---christan on 4/20/12


"The meaning of 'flesh' is determined by context. Why limit it to ONE meaning." Haz27

Your used of Scriptures are all incomplete and only used in parts to confuse and justify your claim about you not sinning anymore in the flesh.

Paul says it well, which you also quoted, "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.", and what did you say? "So if we're in our physical bodies we cannot please God?" The answer is an emphatic YES, YOU CANNOT!

ONLY the Christian by virtue of regeneration, through faith that God gave to him, whenever he sins and repents, God is please and forgives him. But I forgot, you don't sin anymore therefore there's no need of repentance for you.
---christan on 4/20/12


"The law was NOT MADE for Christians" Haz27

Spoken like a true Antinomian who tramples on the grace of God. It was precisely because of the law that a sinner is made a Christian by the grace of God. Without Christ coming to fulfill the law on behalf of His people, no one will be spending eternity with Him.

There would be no grace to express without the law of God. This is what He told Moses, "And He said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." And you mock the law?

Obviously the law has not humbled you as to what you truly are before the Holy God.
---christan on 4/20/12


Lee, Love is the motive and cause of all God's goodness and grace towards His children. He has for them "everlasting Love" (Jer. 31:3). It was "in love" that He "Predestineded us (believers) unto the adoption of children of Jesus Christ to Himself" (Eph. 1:5). Proof of this, that, from all eternity God, "accepted us" (not "in Christ") in His Beloved " (Eph. 1:6). note carefully that this declaration is given before reference is made to the forgiveness of our sins (v.7) God loved His children in ordaining them to eternal life (Acts 13:48). But God, because of His great love with which He loved us, made us alive chose us to be holy in heaven with Himself (Eph. 1:4)
---Mark_V. on 4/20/12


christan: You started a post with my statement Christians are not under the law and then made no point about it.

Are you denying scripture that says Christians are NOT under the law?
According to your doctrine you describe 1John1:8 as: "if we (Christians) say we have no sin (no transgression of the law)....
BUT as Christians are NOT under the law anyway(Gal 5:18, Rom 8:2, 1Tim 1:9) this disproves your doctrine showing that 1John1:8 is NOT speaking about Christians.
Where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION/sin Rom 4:15.
What the law says it says to those UNDER IT, Rom 3:19.
You can't just avoid these inconvenient scriptures.
How can 1John1:8 speak about Christians when they are NOT under the law?

---Haz27 on 4/20/12


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Haz, your going to wind-up like Eloy, a god. You say,

"Christians are in the Spirit. We are NOT in the flesh (Rom 8:9)"
Means that now we are not unbelievers who only walk in the flesh under the law. (7:5) explains what in the flesh meant in (Rom.8:9).

Are you a ghost? with no body? If I hit you on the head, it will hurt you very much. If you were spirit no one would be able to see you. Who do you think Paul was speaking to? Believers who were weak in the flesh.
You need to repent. "If you say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, (and guess what?) and His word is not in us" You don't have the Word in you. Who is the Word? Christ. You would be what (Rom. 7:5) is refering to.
---Mark_V. on 4/20/12


That's why the soul and spirit of a reprobate will be thrown into hell with a "spiritual body", which is not made of matter.
---christan on 4/19/12


Really, reprobates willbe given a SPIRITUAL body?

Not according to 1st Corinthians 15.

Only Christ Himself can give one a SPIRITUAL BODY. Our bodies to be fashioned like His. Only those IN CHRIST will be given spiritual bodies.
---kathr4453 on 4/20/12


christan: So when Rom 8:9 says "ye are not in the flesh" you understand this as you're not in your physical body right now?
And John 8:15
"Ye judge after the flesh". So you think this means judge after the physical body?
And Romans 8:8
"they that are in the flesh cannot please God." So if we're in our physical bodies we cannot please God?
Proverbs 5:11
"thy flesh AND thy body are consumed"
Why are flesh & body separate here?
Psalm 63:1
my soul thirsteth for thee, my flesh longeth for thee
Psalm 84:2
My soul longeth...my flesh crieth out
Interesting BOTH soul/flesh longeth for God.

The meaning of 'flesh' is determined by context. Why limit it to ONE meaning.
---Haz27 on 4/19/12


"The law was NOT MADE for Christians" Haz27

Sad to say, your understanding of being born of the Spirit has caused you to deny the Truth. I am still very curious as to your understanding of SANCTIFICATION, which you have not answered.

This was John's warning to your kind in his epistle, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." And you don't sin anymore in the flesh? You don't lie? Honestly, you're a classic definition of an Antinomian.

Mind you, John was admonishing those who think they're Christians and not unbelievers.
---christan on 4/19/12


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Haz27, is there another definition of the word flesh? Seriously? So, please define for us what the Bible means according to you as to what the "flesh" really means?

All I do know is when Scripture uses the word flesh, it simply means the fallen man. You see, flesh is matter, and no matter how you try to define it, it's made of dust and will return to dust according to the Scripture.

Whereas the soul and spirit is not matter. You cannot see it with your physical (fleshly) eyes but you can see it's manifestation in the earthen (flesh) vessel. Isn't God's creation awesome? That's why the soul and spirit of a reprobate will be thrown into hell with a "spiritual body", which is not made of matter.
---christan on 4/19/12


christan said: "Would you like to take a knife and try cutting yourself and tell everyone you're not in the flesh?"

BUT Rom 8:10 says: "ye are NOT in the FLESH"
Being in the flesh means establishing self-righteousness (Gal 3:2,3. Gal 5).
Your idea that flesh means our physical tangible bodies is NOT what these scriptures mean.

Christians cannot sin because they are NOT under the jurisdiction of the law of sin and death. The law was NOT MADE for Christians, but for the ungodly and sinners instead (1Tim 1:9). Where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION/sin (Rom 4:15).
---Haz27 on 4/19/12


Mark_V. Your claim that Christians are slaves of righteousness who happen to still be in sin is not supported in scripture.
Do you notice the contradiction of your claim?
Slaves to righteousness who STILL SIN?
Christ set us free from sin (John8:36, Rom 6:7). Why deny what Jesus has done for us?

1Tim 1:9, Gal 5:18, Rom 8:2 all show that Christians are NOT under the law. And what the law says it says to those UNDER IT (Rom 3:19).
BUT, as Christians are not under the law (our righteousness is by faith instead), this means that we cannot be accused/judged of sin. Where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION/sin (Rom 4:15).

Christians are in the Spirit. We are NOT in the flesh (Rom 8:9)
---Haz27 on 4/19/12


//Nothing wrong with God's SOVEREIGN plan here. But nowhere does scripture state individuals were forordained to heaven and the rest foreordained to hell.

Romans 9:15-16 For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Sorry Kathryn Adams, but God will do with you as He wishes, even make you an example of what Christians should not be.
---lee1538 on 4/19/12


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Well scripture already has told us Jesus was forordained before the foundation of the world to take away sin.

Nothing wrong with God's SOVEREIGN plan here. But nowhere does scripture state individuals were forordained to heaven and the rest forordained to hell.

God planned before man to BRING MANY SONS INTO GLORY to Share with HIM in GLORY. John 17 states that fact too.



Adam & Eve were not GLORIFIED beings as we will be.
---kathr4453 on 4/19/12


Haz, you gave,
Rom 7:5 flesh here refers to "dead in trespasses and sins.
That's to say when lost, without Christ, we didn't worship God in the newness of the Spirit. Read (v.6)
"But now (saved) we have been delivered from the law ( not under the penalty of the law) having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve "in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter"
That's why Paul in (Romans 6:18,19) says,
"And having been set free from sin (the penalty), you became slaves of righteousness. I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh" These believers were set free, but were weak in their flesh. they still were in the flesh.
---Mark_V. on 4/19/12


Haz27, everyone born into this world is automatically a sinner by virtue of Adam's sin, including you and I. The law has already slayed mankind through Adam, "as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned".

The law as Paul says, "for by the law is the knowledge of sin". The question is do you belief this? If you do, then it's best you repent to God and belief in Christ. And why? "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

It's very true that unbelief in Christ is what will condemn the sinner to hell.
---christan on 4/19/12


"Christians are NOT in the flesh" Haz27

Seriously? Would you like to take a knife and try cutting yourself and tell everyone you're not in the flesh?

Even Paul wouldn't recommend it. Remember 2Cor12:7, "there was given to me a thorn in the flesh", you had better believe Paul never said "Christians are NOT in the flesh". And the only time you're not in the flesh anymore, is when you're dead in the flesh.

"Christians are NOT under it so are NOT transgressors/sinners."

So, tell us, have you stopped sinning? Or are you going to deny it's not you who's sinning? For the sake of your soul, I hope your answer is NO. Or you're an Antinomian in the flesh.
---christan on 4/19/12


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Haz,
They dont understand or dont want to.
They need to know what Christ did for them. I dont think they really believe in the work of Christ or HIS Spirit in them.
We are set free from sin forever.
---duane on 4/19/12


christan: You agree "sin is transgression of the law". BUT there are other definitions of sin too and all point to unbelief in Jesus (John 16:9) which is the sin the world is convicted of.

Your reading of 1John3:9 suggests you're saying we're under the law.
BUT Rom 3:19 "whatever the law says it says to those UNDER IT"
"the law is NOT MADE for a righteous man (Christians) but for....the ungodly and sinners (1Tim 1:9)
Christians are NOT UNDER the law (Rom 8:2, Gal 5:18).
And "where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION aka SIN (Rom 4:15).

Christians are not under the law so how can they be judged/accused of transgression/sin? Our righteousness is in Christ instead.
---Haz27 on 4/19/12


christan: Note Rom 7:5 "For when we WERE in the flesh,

Walking in the FLESH is establishing self-righteousness.
Walking in the SPIRIT is righteousness by faith (Gal 5:5)

Christians are NOT in the flesh (Rom 8:10), we are NOT under the law (Gal 5:18) and where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION (Sin) Rom 4:15.

Gal 5:17 & Rom 7:19 say the same. Flesh and Spirit war against each other so that we cannot do the good we want to.

So WHO will rule in us? Flesh OR Spirit. That depends on whether you seek righteousness through the law OR by faith.

Those in the flesh are UNDER the law thus making themselves transgressors/sinner Gal 2:18
Christians are NOT under it so are NOT transgressors/sinners.
---Haz27 on 4/19/12


Haz27, the body as we have agreed is a given, it's cursed and returning to dust. Kindly tell us then which part of the man does the Holy Spirit SANCTIFIES? Soul or spirit? For the Christian, the soul is what receives forgiveness from God and will go to Paradise, but it continues to sin while still alive in the flesh. Hence Romans 7.

"Can you give me the definition of the sin spoken of in 1John3:9. Is it transgression of the law (1John3:4) or is it something else?"

Sin is sin, there's no other definition of sin nor is it something else. You obviously do not believe that 1 John 3:9 is only referring to the born again spirit of the man by the Holy Spirit.
---christan on 4/18/12


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christan: The answer to your question is option C (which you left out).
C: The soul and Spirit do not sin. The Body is dead because of sin (Rom 8:10)

You believe the soul still remains in sin in spite of the cross.
BUT 1John3:8 says "he that committeth sin is of the devil" and John8:34 "he who sins is a servant of sin". Are you saying our souls are of the devil/servants of sin?

Jesus is the savior of our souls, but if we still remain in sin in spite of the cross, as you claim, then are you saying Jesus did not set us free from sin (Rom 6:7, John8:36)?

Can you give me the definition of the sin spoken of in 1John3:9. Is it transgression of the law (1John3:4) or is it something else?
---Haz27 on 4/18/12


Haz27,

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9

So, is this verse John teaching, referring to the:
A. body, soul and spirit?
B. just the spirit?

A simple answer of A or B will suffice.
---christan on 4/18/12


Haz, you give me (1 John 2:27) and have no clue what it is saying, then you ask me not to be taught by man. Do you even know what "abiding or anointing" means? John is not denying the importance of gifted teachers in the church (1 Cor. 12:28: Eph. 4:11) but indicates that neither those teachers nor those believers are dependent on human wisdom or the opinions of men for the Truth. God's Holy Spirit guards and guides the true believer into the truth. Whenever John refers to abiding he is referring to persevering in the faith of salvation, which is evidence of being a true believer (John 15:1-6). The hope of Christ return produces the effect of continual abiding in every true believer as they long for the glorious future for them.
---Mark_V. on 4/18/12


Say to John:
Matthew 11:5 "The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me."

Matthew 11:7 "And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?"

He did not speak in Matthew 11 to his sheep only.

John 18:20 "Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world, I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort, and in secret have I said nothing."
Matthew 10:27
---Nana on 4/17/12


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\\Carla //Christ taught his people the word on a Sabbath]\\

Actually, Jesus taught on ALL days of the week.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/17/12


"[Christ taught his people the word on a Sabbath]" Carla

"For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day." Matthew 12:8 - the Sabbath rest in the OT found its fulfillment in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. It's not a day but Jesus Christ, He's Lord of the Sabbath.

And this He tells His sheep, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I WILL GIVE YOU REST. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls." Matthew 11:27-29

The Christian now rest in Christ for all eternity. Isn't that a relieve?
---christan on 4/17/12


Mark_V. Consider 1John2:27: "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye NEED NOT that any man teach you"

I suggest ONLY use the Bible and trust God. Your trust in man is leading you astray.

No scriptures support your doctrine. And your favorite 1John1:8 is used out of context. You define sin incorrectly.

But God says we:
"Cannot sin" 1John3:9,
"ceased from sin" 1Peter 4:1,
"freed from sin" Rom 6:7,
"dead to sin" Rom 6:2
It's ONLY PAST sins that were forgiven (Rom 3:25). That means there is "NO MORE offering for sin" Heb 10:18.

There's NO MORE offering for Mark_V's sin.
Trust God instead. He says we cannot sin.
---Haz27 on 4/16/12


Haz, my suggestion to you is that you get some books that can help you interpret passages correctly. It does not take a lot of work, just a few bucks. Because no one is sinless but Christ, and you sure are not Christ. I know you walk the streets and live a life of sin, because your flesh has not been redeemed. You will die, because of that sin. I know you don't want to call yourself a sinner, but that is ok, but to not admit you sin, you do call God a liar and you do give evidence the Truth is not in you. Stop calling God a liar, repent, even though you have been saved you need to repent of your sin. I say this with love.
---Mark_V. on 4/16/12


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Carla //Christ taught his people the word on a Sabbath]

True as Jesus was Jewish and conformed to the laws of Judaism. The very early church as all Jewish.

There is nothing in the New Covenant that commands the observance of any day. Romans 14.

And it is obvious from early church history that the Apostles and their successors did not teach observance of the Sabbath as we see the church by the beginning of the 2sd century no longer observed these distinctive Jewish laws.

Adventists like to blame the Roman Church for changing the Sabbath, but that church had little or no influence until the 4th century.
---lee1538 on 4/16/12


Mark 6:2And when the Sabbath day was come he began to teach in the synagogue...
Luke 4:16 ... and his custom was he went where? into the synagogue on the When Sabbath day and stood up for to read...
6:6...Another Sabbath he entered into the synagogue and taught there..
Luke: 13:10
And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath...

[Christ taught his people the word on a Sabbath]
no support for denominations here only the (WORD)all else is accursed teachings...WAKE UP and come out from amongst them!!!
Christianity teaches the trinity doctrines of devils on a Sunday.
---Carla on 4/16/12


While Christians originally were all Jewish and worshipped in the synagogues,
---lee1538 on 4/15/12

original Christians were not all jews: Acts 2:10 Jews and proselytes,

Acts 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

religious proselytes are not jews, are not from the blood line of Abraham and in that same passage the whole gentile city was at the same synagogue ( maubye outseide)

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the GREEKS.
---francis on 4/16/12


francis //you are as funny as you are illinformed.

While Christians originally were all Jewish and worshipped in the synagogues, that all ended when Christians were barred from the synagogues by the end of the first century.

Sorry but anyone knowledgeable of early church history will tell you that the home church was the model, not the Jewish synagogues.

If you do want to know the truth, suggest you acquire volume 1 Apostolic Church AD. 1-100, the History of the Christian church by Philip Schaff.

Of course, you may not want to know the truth as you may not be able to handle it.
---lee1538 on 4/15/12


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lee1538 said: "I also use commentaries by Stott, Sproul, Wiersbe, Barclay, Ryrie, Hiebert, James, as well as a few others...And I read Study Bible that have annotations."

Wow...is it any wonder your so confused and argue without scriptural support.

I'm glad to see however that you have at least admitted that we are saved by grace. However your habitual sin doctrine where you claimed that "those who make a practice or lifestyle of sin are of the devil" suggests either your not so sure about grace or you're just misled by your trusted Barnes commentary.

Can I suggest packing away all your commentaries, etc and ONLY use the Bible as your source. Take that step to trust in God instead.
---Haz27 on 4/15/12


James_L //Based on your posts, it would appear the thrust of your studies is rather limited to Barnes' notes.

Walk into just about any pastors study and you will find commentaries upon commentaries. In fact, most likely you will find Barnes Notes among them as they seem to be one of the best.

If your pastor or priest gets into the pulpit to expound on the scripture, he or she becomes a commentary.

BTW, I also use commentaries by Stott, Sproul, Wiersbe, Barclay, Ryrie, Hiebert, James, as well as a few others. My library can rival any pastors library. And I read Study Bible that have annotations.

While all these commentaries were written by men of God, I realize that no one is infallible including your pope.
---lee1538 on 4/15/12


You have to handed to Lee, he has done his homework on the history and the studies of the SDA's. One should not speak against a subject or a believe unless they have studied all the details of what they are going to talk about. And he has. Most here who speak against him is because they get angry that someone would say something against what they teach. He has opposed others on other issues so they join the SDA's group to show their support because Lee opposed them once and they just didn't like that. The fact is, he knows what he is talking about. Jehovah Witnesses got a lot of their believes from E. White.
---Mark_V. on 4/15/12


And history tells us that since the norm of the church was to met on the Lord's Day, Sunday by 135 AD. This would certainly mean that Sabbath keeping was not taught by the Apostles & their immediate successors.
So your view that the church became an apostate church by the 2sd century is in error.
---lee1538 on 4/15/12
and the BIBLE which I go by says that Jesus did not come to change the law.

It also tells us that the 4th beast will try to change the laws and times of God

So the bible prophecies that apostacy would come and history proved it. History is NOT doctrine it is proof that the prophecy has come true.
---francis on 4/15/12


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In fact, one change we are now seeing is the creation of Jewish type synagogues and the observances of OT feasts. ---lee1538 on 4/15/12
LOL LOL LOL

Christians were worshiping in synagogues long long before the SDA church started

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Acts 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

LOL LOL

MAN you are as funny as you are illinformed
---francis on 4/15/12


francis//The Bible has always been at the forefront of my biblical studies.

However, your interpretation of the Bible is based upon the teachings of Adventism.

While you ignore church history, I maintain that one really cannot understand the Bible apart from its culture and its history.

And history tells us that since the norm of the church was to met on the Lord's Day, Sunday by 135 AD. This would certainly mean that Sabbath keeping was not taught by the Apostles & their immediate successors.
So your view that the church became an apostate church by the 2sd century is in error.
---lee1538 on 4/15/12


//The history will show that at any given point in time different people or church groups will always have different doctrines.

Mostly different interpretations and understandings of Biblical doctrine.

While we do not put our trust in man, our understanding of the Bible is enhanced by what the teachers the Lord has given to His church.

As to history, Adventism is one movement that has changed some of its doctrine and practice since its conception in the mid 1800's. In fact, one change we are now seeing is the creation of Jewish type synagogues and the observances of OT feasts. What I wonder about is since some of these OT feast involve animal sacrifice, how will Adventist modify them.
---lee1538 on 4/15/12


//The Bible has always been at the forefront of my biblical studies.

Says the Presbyterian, the Methodist, the Congregationist, the Lutheran, the Church of Christ, the Church of God, the Assembly of God, the church of the Nazarene, The Eastern Ortrodox church, the independent "Bible" churches, etc. etc. etc. as well as the Seventh Day Adventist church.

The problem is all of these fail to understand that while the Bible is at their forefront, it is their INTERPRETATION that really makes up their doctrinal beliefs.

Adventists like Francis and Jerry are really blind fools not to realize this.
---lee1538 on 4/15/12


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Church history has always been my at the forefront of my Biblical studies. ---lee1538 on 4/14/12

The Bible has always been at the forefront of my biblical studies

The history will show that at any given point in time different people or church groups will always have different doctrines

The bible says: Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines.
---francis on 4/15/12


leej,

\\Church history has always been my at the forefront of my Biblical studies.\\

Based on your posts, it would appear that the thrust of your studies is rather limited to Barnes' notes.


\\I did not leave this forum because of any problems that I encountered as I was active on another forum.\\

Yeah. That's what I'd say, too


\\I rather doubt that you really know much...church history....\\

Don't have to, slick. I read all of Cluny's posts *smile*


\\you probably never heard of either supr and infra...you could not respond....\\

Why do you think my response started "In Protestantism" ???
---James_L on 4/14/12


Lee, here is a good example of depravity and how free will does not exist for the lost. James L, is only been honest how he feels by answering you and closing by accusing you, that you gone six months and changing your name. Here is what I mean, example: in a trail juror's are picked for a murder case. And one juror before hearing the evidence has already made up his mind before he hears the evidence. Their will is not free it is bias already. No amount of evidence will convince them. An unbeliever is the same way. He has freedom, but he will never choose the evidence of Scripture, no matter how much of God's word is shown to him. He is already depraved. He needs the Spirit to convict his conscience and convince him he is wrong.
---Mark_V. on 4/15/12


//you've tried going down this road before, and the heat came so heavy that you disappeared from this forum for about six months, and then changed your name.

Church history has always been my at the forefront of my Biblical studies. I did not leave this forum because of any problems that I encountered as I was active on another forum.

Sorry but I rather doubt that you really know much about either church history or the history of theology.

Let's face it, you probably never heard of either supr and infra lapsariamism as you could not respond to the forum thread. You are really an unlearned, maybe even unteachable person.
---lee1538 on 4/14/12


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\\Stupid comment, obviously from those who have little knowledge of church history!\\
---lee1538 on 4/14/12


leej,
you've tried going down this road before, and the heat came so heavy that you disappeared from this forum for about six months, and then changed your name.

I don't think you want to go there again with me, do you?
---James_L on 4/14/12


//In Protestantism, theologians are usually debating whether a bicycle has three wheels or four.

Stupid comment, obviously from those who have little knowledge of church history!

If you were at all familiar with any period of history of the church, you would be able to see that there has been debates going on ever since the creation of the church.

Take for instance the debates surronding the subject of the Trinity, those on the nature of Christ, the Gnosticism controversy, etc.

Augustine seem to be one that was able to establish the beliefs of the church more so on scripture and that is one reason he has been recognized as one of the great father of the Christian church.
---lee1538 on 4/14/12


\\Let me guess! Would it simply be that most Orthodox people are not really into theology being content to kiss icons, the bishops ring, genuflect in front of an altar, observe various church holidays and the like?\\

Wrong on many reasons.

For one thing, our bishops do not wear rings. For another, we do not genuflect.

And since you're so wrong about the external practices of Orthodoxy, little good will be done in talking about our theologians for centuries and their writings.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/14/12


\\If that were true then why have theologians debated this issue for centuries???\\
---lee1538 on 4/13/12


In Protestantism, theologians are usually debating whether a bicycle has three wheels or four.

Calvin, Luther, etc came away from the RCC bewildered and confused, trying to make sense of some biblical truth through the paradigm of Augustine's warped understanding of some key doctrinal issues

And others have simply built on the errors of the past
---James_L on 4/14/12


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"To imagine a perfect God embarking on a plan of creation knowing ahead of time that it was doomed to failure is just plain ludicrous." 1stCliff

That's why you've a god of your own imagination. Unbelievable you're telling God what He can or cannot do, and He's the Creator of everything. God did not "know ahead of time", He predestined all that has happened and is about to happen.

"God had every confidence in His creation pronouncing it "good"!"

It was "good" only until the fall. After that, it's all downhill and still going down or how else will He destroy the world with fire? Daniel 4:35 will disprove your talk of"confidence".
---christan on 4/14/12


Lee, God is eternal, His sovereign plan of salvation is eternal. It's clear as day. They read what God says about Himself, yet they cannot reconcile His Word with the god they created in their minds. The finite mind has his own standards of how God should be. They read that God chose Israel over other nations, and they say man has free will. God destroys thousands for the servival of Israel and people still say they have free will. God sends the angel of death to destroy many, but they still have free will. God choses individuals to salvation, but they demand their rights of free will. Gives proof of their enmity. Such a God cannot be found out by searching. He can be known only as He is revealed to the heart by the Holy Spirit through the Word.
---Mark_V. on 4/14/12


Cluny//Why do you think it's a total non-issue for the Orthodox?

Let me guess! Would it simply be that most Orthodox people are not really into theology being content to kiss icons, the bishops ring, genuflect in front of an altar, observe various church holidays and the like?

After all many today think ritual is all the Lord requires of us.

Suggest you acquire a good book on the history of Christianity or the history of theology. Who knows you might learn something worthwhile.
---lee1538 on 4/13/12


Before he created mankind and gave them freedom of choice.
---Eloy on 4/13/12


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To imagine a perfect God embarking on a plan of creation knowing ahead of time that it was doomed to failure is just plain ludicrous.
God had every confidence in His creation pronouncing it "good"!
Gave Adam a free choice,Adam made the wrong one,hence "trouble"!
He had no desire to see a wicked wold,so made a way to overcome evil!
---1st_cliff on 4/13/12


God does not need to know the future and that's because HE WROTE & PURPOSE everything. The past, the present and the things to come. "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" Isaiah 46:10

Which clearly means, it was "His will and pleasure" that the man must fall and that's because He foreordained the glory of His Son Jesus Christ in the saving of their sins. It's all written in the Scriptures, as clear as when the sun rises and shines in the day.
---christan on 4/13/12


\\If that were true then why have theologians debated this issue for centuries????\\

But it IS true.

Why do you think it's a total non-issue for the Orthodox?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/13/12


I like Cluny's answer for once :P
---CraigA on 4/13/12


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Was God's sovereign plan of salvation determined before or after the fall of Adam and Eve?
---lee1538 on 4/12/12

REALLY? does God know the future? REALY? That is your question? REALY?
---francis on 4/13/12


Cluny, James_L//Since God does not live in time (what do you think "e-ternal" means, anyway?) your question is meaningless.

If that were true then why have theologians debated this issue for centuries????

It is the debate primarily between supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism and concerns the relationship of God's decrees to election and the fall.
---lee1538 on 4/13/12


The answer is clearly not before or after but from eternity. Here's prove from His Word,

"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you" 1 Peter 1:19,20

"before the foundation of the world" clearly points to eternity, and that's because God is eternal. Before He created everything in the time, space and matter continuum, only the triune God existed in their eternal state. Eternal is timeless, hence Peter described God "that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." 2 Peter 3:8
---christan on 4/13/12


Cluny,

AMEN !! I couldn't agree more.
---James_L on 4/13/12


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The plan of salvation was determined before the fall, "knowing that you [the believer,] were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He [Jesus, The Lord of Salvation] indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you. [Father] has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began," 1Pet 1:18-20>2Ti 1:9
---Josef on 4/13/12


before

Before our Father created this universe, He and His Son Jesus had such special love sharing together. He was so pleased with His Son, that He wanted to have many children who are like Jesus. So, He predestined us "to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (in Romans 8:29)

"'Known to God from eternity are all His works.'" (Acts 15:18)
---willie_c: on 4/13/12


It says that God made his choices prior to the foundation of the world in the first chapter of Ephesians so it is pretty much a done deal at this point, no new considerations for salvation are being considered.
---Blogger9211 on 4/13/12


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